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  1. #71
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    Pat, thats a rational restriction, at least for sports like baseball and the like, particularly for college sports. No one that young should be using, anyway. I, personally, would love to see a all-steroid Olympics, or an all-steroid boxing association (besides K-1, <cough>)




  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatMaGroin
    Since when is Sports Illustrated not a credible source? Ok, let's pretend that instead of SI, it says CNN at the top. Is it credible now? Oh wait, it DOES say CNN. How convenient. I'm pretty sure that's the first time I've ever heard anyone say "Eh, the leading magazine in the nation about sports probably isn't very credible when it comes to sports stories."

    So sports illustrated is a peer reviewed non-biased (read not financially supported by, well, anyone) source of medical studies? Or is this just one isolated instance that can be attributed to just about anything? Maybe he is just getting old, and injuries happen. Maybe he was overtraining. According to the type of thinking here, I say his injuries were caused from the orange juice he drank for breakfast that day. I mean after all, if you drink orange juice and then later that day you pull a muscle, surely the injury was caused by the orange juice.




  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispyknight
    Pat, thats a rational restriction, at least for sports like baseball and the like, particularly for college sports. No one that young should be using, anyway. I, personally, would love to see a all-steroid Olympics, or an all-steroid boxing association (besides K-1, <cough>)

    As a consumer, I can't see why anyone would think otherwise. As a non-participant, I want to be given the best show possible for my time and/or money. Steroids inable athletics to be bigger, be stronger, run faster, jump higher, throw objects farther, etc.

    I don't see the difference between chemically enhanced athletes and chemically intoxicated musicians. How many people ever complained about Jimi Hendrix being all screwed up on whatever he was on? Maybe he couldn't have performed as well had he been straight. But he was putting on a great show, so who cares what he puts into his body? He is only hurting himself, and besides I get to see an incredible performance. And before someone says something about steroids and peer pressure, well you can just as easily say that other musicians were under pressure to perform at high levels too.

    So if a chemically enhanced athlete is cheating, then so was Jimi Hendrix. So I would like all of you that say that steroids are cheating to show the same fervor in saying that Jimi Hendrix is a cheater and that his accomplishments should be forgotten.




  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by innorton38
    You and ICE seem to have an odd perspective on what constitutes a "shortcut." Just because it actually makes you work harder, doesn't mean it's not a shortcut. If your goal is to gain muscle mass and a certain apprearence, and steroids make it easier to do that faster than if you didn't use steroids, it's a shortcut. I mean if you spend all semester planning how to steal the answers to a final exam and eventually come up with a great plan after hundreds of hours of planning and preparing, even though studying for an hour a day would have produced the same results, you are still cheating... You just have a very convenient definition of "shortcut."

    What you have just described is not steroid use. It is steroid abuse. Steroids, IMO, should only be used to achieve muscle mass, strength, and/or conditioning that is not possible without them. If you have been working out for 1 year and then go on a cycle, you are taking a shortcut. No doubt about it. Using steroids once you have reached your genetic potential is steroid USE and is NOT a shortcut. Using steroids at any time before that moment IS a shortcut and is ABUSE.

    I hope this is clear enough.




  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man In Black
    As a consumer, I can't see why anyone would think otherwise. As a non-participant, I want to be given the best show possible for my time and/or money. Steroids inable athletics to be bigger, be stronger, run faster, jump higher, throw objects farther, etc.

    I don't see the difference between chemically enhanced athletes and chemically intoxicated musicians. How many people ever complained about Jimi Hendrix being all screwed up on whatever he was on? Maybe he couldn't have performed as well had he been straight. But he was putting on a great show, so who cares what he puts into his body? He is only hurting himself, and besides I get to see an incredible performance. And before someone says something about steroids and peer pressure, well you can just as easily say that other musicians were under pressure to perform at high levels too.

    So if a chemically enhanced athlete is cheating, then so was Jimi Hendrix. So I would like all of you that say that steroids are cheating to show the same fervor in saying that Jimi Hendrix is a cheater and that his accomplishments should be forgotten.
    Music is about creativity, not competition. I know alot of people think drugs make you more creative but I don't think so. The best they do is whack you out and make it so no one has any idea what you're talking about and to some people, that passes as creativity... Athletics are about competition (ideally without unnatural enhancements.)

    As I stated before (somewhere in one of these convoluted threads), I really don't have a problem with steroids or steroid users as long as they don't compete in any athletic competitions, so don't think I want all steroids banned and all users lynched... I think that fact's been lost somewhere along the line (of my many rants...)




  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger14
    * Steroids can lead to depression and can be addictive.

    * Side effects of steroids can include: tears of muscles and tendons; acne; liver damage; mood swings and aggressive behavior; shrinkage in the size of testicles; loss of the ability to get erections; a decreased sperm count; an increase in men's breast size; high blood pressure; abnormal cholesterol levels; jaundice; male-pattern baldness in men and women; and the growth of facial hair in women.
    I shall tackle these one at a time.

    *Steroids can lead to depression
    I don't really see how this could ever be an issure with anyone that knows what they are doing. Read that last sentence as anyone the is using steroids as opposed to abusing steroids. The user will surely know that not all of the weight gained is muscle, often a very significant portion is water, and that this excess water will leave the system after steroid use is stopped. A (most likely slight) decrease in strength is to be expected as well. If the person does a proper PCT and continues eating right and training hard, this will not be much of an issue at all. Also the proper PCT, eating, and training will get his hormone levels back to normal as quickly as possible, so I don't see anywhere for depression to sneak in, anything else is just a weak-minded person.

    *Steroids can be addictive
    WTF? Steroids are addictive in the same way that Diablo 2 is addictive. Steroids are NOT addictice in the way that heroin is addictive. Conclusion: Diablo 2 must be classified as a schedule 3 controlled substance.

    *Tears of muscles and tendons
    These are most likely caused by one of two things, neither of which are steroids.
    1) Pure stupidity/ego lifting
    Attempting to lift more weight that you can handle with good form is a sure way to injure yourself. Sloppy form with heavy weight is probably the best way to hurt yourself.
    2) Freak accident
    Face it, injuries just happen some times. You can be practicing good form with moderate weight and still get injured. Its just a fact of life, deal with it.

    *acne
    I covered this somewhere else, maybe it was in the other thread. But basically: Oh Noes!!1! A zit or two on my back doesnt matter to me. Avoid the compounds that cause acne and get some acne creams or whatever. For me, I only get acne after the cycle when my natural test levels are on the rise.

    *liver damage
    Sure, with years of heavy oral steroid ABUSE (note not USE, but ABUSE) you can get into trouble. With use of orals, the effects are extremely temporary, and even then are limited to an increase in liver enzymes, not in cirrosis(spelling?) or liver cancer.

    *mood swings and aggressive behavior
    Mood swings? Please. All the media does is tell people that steroids cause uncontrollable rage. Then when the stupid kid tries steroids, what does he expect? Yup, he expects to just randomly fly off the handle, and more than likely he will, and then blame the steroids. So what actually was the cause of the flip outage? Steroids or the media for saying what the kid should experience? I say the media. Then of course you have the whole not accepting responibility thing, so of course the kid will say it was the steroids and that he couldn't control himself. Its funny how many people have been told prior to any usage that there is no roid rage and then dont experience anything like it at all. And then you have the people who have heard their entire lives all about roid rage, never having talked to anyone who has actually used them mind you, and then they are the only ones that ever experience this "rage." As for aggressive behavior, it by that you mean that you have a larger drive to hit the weight harder and for longer, or that you feel more confident, then sure, I have experienced an increase of aggresion. Have I ever bashed someone's skull in with a hammer? No, but if I ever do, I will take full blame for it.

    *shrinkage in the size of testicles
    Well, no sh*t Sherlock. Here's an over simplified explanation of what happens. You inject some testosterone in a supraphysiological doses. Your body sees this exogenous testosterone as its own. So, the body stops producing test because your body already has enough of it circulating. Over a period of time that your balls havent been doing much of anything, they shrink, because they aren't needed. If you want to keep your buddies nice and plump, administer some HCG periodically, and PRESTO problem solved. So, side effect? Not really, more like a direct effect, and easily avoidable if you are concerned about it.

    *loss of the ability to get erections
    This one is caused by stupidity. If nandrolone caused mr. willy to not work, regardless of how much test you take with it, then either don't take nandrolone, or get some viagra, cialis, or whatever. You don't even have to go to your doctor for the ED stuff, just order it overnight and you can be back to normal in no time. But more often than not, including test in your cycle will prevent this from ever happening. Another thing that could cause impotence is a severe lack of estrogen, yes thats right, the female sex hormone. If this is the case, you guessed it Einstein! Lay off the AI's!

    *a decreased sperm count
    Ummmm..... Wait a second . .. . This isn't desirable? But seriously, not everyone is really affected by this. Many people have gotten wives/whoever pregnant while on cycle. But more than likely you will see some drop in sperm count, but they will come back after the cycle. Take some clomid if you are in a hurry. Yes, Clomid, the female fertility drug.

    *an increase in men's breast size
    One word: Nolvadex. Or Tamoxifen if you prefer the generic term, or even any other SERM. It works for women with breast cancer, and it also works for guys that don't want tits. Basically, this drug binds to the estrogen receptors, preferentially those in breast tissue, blocking the estrogen from binding there and growing some nice c cups. Also, no estrogen = no boobies. So load up on those AI's if you want to.

    *high blood pressure; abnormal cholesterol levels
    These I also covered elsewhere, but basically, they go right back to normal after the cycle. And of course any steroid user (again, read USER, not ABUSER) will be getting blood work done to check this sort of thing, so it can be taken care of before it gets out of hand. But all in all, a very temporary side effect.

    *jaundice
    They already listed liver damage, and what else caused jaundice. Nice way to make the list a little longer, hate mongers. So yeah, read the part about liver damage. This is never an issue with steroid USE.

    *male-pattern baldness in men and women
    Again, I covered this elsewhere. But yes even MPB is a temporary side effect of steroid use, if even that. People that are not predisposed to male pattern baldness (hint: look at the men on your moms side of the family) have nothing to worry about. If you just like worrying, take some anti-hairloss stuff, or better yet, just shave it all off.

    *growth of facial hair in women
    Well, yup. Women can experience a whole lot more than facial hair growth if they take some heavy androgens. But again, this only ever happends with abuse. Mild anabolic, non-androgenic steroids are the only ones that should ever be considered by women, unless they want to look like a man.

    So generally these only are of concern with abuse, and I have never said that there aren't consequences for abusing steroids, or they are completely (yeah thats right, I said it) 100% avoidable.




  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by innorton38
    Music is about creativity, not competition. I know alot of people think drugs make you more creative but I don't think so. The best they do is whack you out and make it so no one has any idea what you're talking about and to some people, that passes as creativity... Athletics are about competition (ideally without unnatural enhancements.)
    Well, if some guy is just playing the guitar with his friends for fun, then sure, its about creativity. Once money is involved it becomse a business. Look at different bands as different businesses, each with their own product to sell. How could this not be a competition?

    Quote Originally Posted by innorton38
    As I stated before (somewhere in one of these convoluted threads), I really don't have a problem with steroids or steroid users as long as they don't compete in any athletic competitions, so don't think I want all steroids banned and all users lynched... I think that fact's been lost somewhere along the line (of my many rants...)
    I understand where you are coming from. And well, individual sports leagues have the right to ban whatever they want, basically because it is their league, so why shouldn't they have the final say. But I think all sports (ok, maybe not those spelling bee things on espn every once in a while) could give a better show if the athletes were allowed to reach higher levels of strenght, speed, etc. But this one will change based on everyones opinion, so, .. ummm .. yeah.

    EDIT:
    However, what I do have a problem with is agencies considering one banned substance more offensive than another. If it is banned, it is banned, that means that you can't use it. The particular case that I am talking about is the 1988 Seoul Olympics. Ben Johnson was stripped of the gold metal, not to mention a world record, for using steroids. USA Golden (Shower, ok, that was uncalled for I admit it) Boy Carl Lewis tests positive for caffiene MULTIPLE times, yet still gets the gols medal handed to him. Um..... anyone else see a problem here? I'm sure politics played a role here (when don't they?) but come on, this is absolute horsecrap.

    /end rant




  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man In Black
    I don't see the difference between chemically enhanced athletes and chemically intoxicated musicians. How many people ever complained about Jimi Hendrix being all screwed up on whatever he was on? Maybe he couldn't have performed as well had he been straight. But he was putting on a great show, so who cares what he puts into his body? He is only hurting himself, and besides I get to see an incredible performance. And before someone says something about steroids and peer pressure, well you can just as easily say that other musicians were under pressure to perform at high levels too.

    So if a chemically enhanced athlete is cheating, then so was Jimi Hendrix. So I would like all of you that say that steroids are cheating to show the same fervor in saying that Jimi Hendrix is a cheater and that his accomplishments should be forgotten.
    LOL, man that's stupid. Jimi wasn't in a musical competition where it was illegal to take drugs. :laughing: :laughing:

    If steroids were made legal in games then it would become like F1. The best "driver" mightn't win, it would be the "car". You would have different pharmaceutical groups sponsoring athletes, leading to teams of pharmeutical groups. When a certain team wins it proves that their sponser has the best steroids. Individual performance wouldn't matter as much.




  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by myleftfoot
    LOL, man that's stupid. Jimi wasn't in a musical competition where it was illegal to take drugs. :laughing: :laughing:

    But he was in a country were it was illegal to take drugs. And I say that he was in a competition, the competition for peoples money. Read my other post.

    Quote Originally Posted by myleftfoot
    If steroids were made legal in games then it would become like F1. The best "driver" mightn't win, it would be the "car". You would have different pharmaceutical groups sponsoring athletes, leading to teams of pharmeutical groups. When a certain team wins it proves that their sponser has the best steroids. Individual performance wouldn't matter as much.
    Like I said, everyone will have there own opinion on it. But before steroids were banned, there were no pharmacuetical sponsorships, so your opinion is based on, well nothing.

    What about when the US first used some slimy swimsuits in the olymipics (I think the '88 games, not certain) that reduced drag and provided an unfair advantage? I take it you would take issue with that as well, or how about fiberglass poles in the pole vault, or tailor made sprinting cleats, or specialized training techniques, or how about Kenyan runners being able to train year-round at high elevation? If you take issue with the use of steroids, surely you must take ussue with those.

    Basically, the idea of a even playing field is horsecrap. If there are humans involved, the field will never be even. No two humans have the exact same genetic potential for anything, let alone for everything that constitutes a sport. Nor will the financial backing ever really be equal, just a fact of life.




  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man In Black
    But he was in a country were it was illegal to take drugs. And I say that he was in a competition, the competition for peoples money. Read my other post.
    Nope, he wasn't in compeition. The company were. He went from place to place performing. You could set up a freak show, going from place to place doing your thing, if you make enough money some company might decide to sponsor you and market you but you wouldn't be competing the company would. They would pay you what they see fit.




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