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  1. #141
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    Indeed, Saro, but Ranger will try to tell you steroids DO hurt everyone else, because of crazed, testosterone sweating fiends roam the streets beating people to death. And what will children do for role models if steroids are legalized? Won't someone please think of the children?

    Excellent comparison at the end of the post, Saro. If only more people could be as reasonable.




  2. #142
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    I haven't read the whole thread but these are my feelings.

    Before i start i just want to emphasise that steroids should not be used by anyone under age 18 unless with a doctors supervision. This is usually just for "late bloomers" or people with growth problems. You don't need roids that young you can make almost as good of gains as steroids by just eating and training correctly. This is because of the high test levels teens have naturally. Taking steroids before 18 increases the risks of bad side effects (growth plate closure, acne, etc.) dramatically.

    Steroids get a bad rap these days in the media, which is ironic since with virtually every sport at the top level near everyone will use some of steroid. Including Olympics. They pay urologists to help them test clean.

    Steroids should be legal, just like every other drug. Its absurd to claim we are a free country but strictly regulate and ruin peoples lives for what they put in their bodies. Drug use by itself is not a crime, its the dangerous enviroment prohibition creates that deals the vast majority of harm to everyone.

    Steroids are also not nearly as harmful as uninformed people and the media/govt depicts. Using properly mean doing proper cycles (usually 4-6 weeks) and using clomid to recuperate test levels post cycle. You should also take lengthy breaks between cycles. You should also know how to train/eat right and get a good regimen down before you even considering using roids. A newbie trainer will make tremendous gains just by eating like a horse and training like an animal. Steroids are best used once you are already a serious trainer and reaching a plateau. Using them properly very rarely causes long term side effects or consequences.
    Abusing them will cause serious harm to your body/mind. The consequences of long or even short term abuse are enough of a punishment in themselves, and this goes for all drugs as well. This is yet another reason why legalization is necessary as a form of natural selection and to let people take responsibility for their action. Harm reduction information would be incredibly easier to find.

    For more info on all drugs, check www.erowid.org or www.bluelight.ru

    Inform yourself people.




  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispyknight
    Indeed, Saro, but Ranger will try to tell you steroids DO hurt everyone else, because of crazed, testosterone sweating fiends roam the streets beating people to death.
    Which is, of course, an easily destroyed argument.

    If we ban steroids because they might cause people to do bad things, we also need to ban alcohol. Or heck, let's ban cars too. My fiance will attest to the fact that just about the only time I get angry in my everyday life is on the freeway behind some idiot doing 35 in the fast lane of a 65 zone. Clearly the car is a dangerous object that must be banned.

    The fact is, everyone is responsible for the actions they perform while under the effects of any drug (whether it be alcohol or PCP) they choose to take. You take the chance when you take the drug, and when you screw up, you go to jail for a very long time and people like me laugh at your stupid choices in life.



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    "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

  4. #144
    IncGamers Member TonoTheHero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaroDarksbane
    Which is absolutely the worst argument for legalizing anything.

    "Hey, man, some people are gonna murder other people anyway, so why keep it illegal?"
    Aye, you're right.

    People are going to use them anyway and spending time and money hunting them for what they do to themselves regardless of this, is a waste. That is more along the lines of what I thought. Freedom over the choices limited to the self is something I just assumed, that was sloopy of me.




  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by TonoTheHero
    People are going to use them anyway and spending time and money hunting them for what they do to themselves regardless of this, is a waste. That is more along the lines of what I thought. Freedom over the choices limited to the self is something I just assumed, that was sloopy of me.
    I completely agree. If the police (Okay, not the police. The police only enforce the law dutifully. It's the legislature we need to act upon here) didn't spend so much time busting people and writing up reports over stupid crap like marijuana possession, maybe they would have more time to investigate crimes that actually hurt other people.

    The concept of the nanny state is completely at odds with the philosophy of a truly free society, and I find it as contemptible for the government to ban drugs as I generally find people who use them in the first place.



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    "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispyknight
    Indeed, Saro, but Ranger will try to tell you steroids DO hurt everyone else, because of crazed, testosterone sweating fiends roam the streets beating people to death. And what will children do for role models if steroids are legalized? Won't someone please think of the children?

    Excellent comparison at the end of the post, Saro. If only more people could be as reasonable.
    Nice job of twisting around my words and misinterprepting my posts. Read my last couple posts again and maybe you will understand my stance a little more.

    My concern with kids is the use by teens of steroids. Do I feel believe kids look up to athletes and want to emulate them? Absolutely! Is that the athlete's fault? Nope. More or less an overall societal view. I have been involved in the health and fitness arena for over 20 years. I guess what I have witnessed and experienced means nothing to you and others, but it sure does to me.




  7. #147
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    I think steroids only should be used if you are a proffessional and get to the point where you can't really develop any further like the competitors of Mr Olympia.




  8. #148
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    Screw that, make it mandatory.I wanna see a bunch of shaved monkeys swinging bats.




  9. #149
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    I will admit to a bit of hyperbole in my last post, but twisting your words? I think not.
    As I've said (repeatedly) young kids shouldn't be using steroids at all, and if they were legalized, doctors would be overseeing their use, and wouldn't prescribe them for people were there might be the potential for repercussions.
    Is it the athlete's fault they are role models? No. Is it the children's parent's fault? Yes. Make it clear that these shaved gorillas are there to serve as an example for the rest of us to learn a real world skill so when you hit 40 and you can't play the oh-so-enthralling game anymore you can continue to make a living.
    I guess all that I have witnessed, experienced, researched, done and watched done means nothing to you, but it sure does to me. <cough> I've seen literally dozens of users come and go through my gym, most responsible, some not. The latter were asked to leave very quickly. Our doc is a guy in his sixties, doesn't look a day over 35, and can wipe the floor with my 275 pound *** in seconds in the ring.
    many of your perceived dangers of steroid use may be stemming from your age. If you've been involved in the fitness world for 20 years, you have best be closing in on 40. Many things have changed in those intervening years, but perhaps a prejudice against steroids you learned while you were in school remained? Many of your perceived dangers just might evaporate if steroids were legalized. Proper dosing, sterile solutions, proper injection technique, proper PCT, blood work, liver function tests would all be freely availible by registered, above board doctors.
    I'm still confused as to why this affects you so. It's the user's choice, and its their body. Let them make their own decisions, be they good or bad, on thier own.




  10. #150
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    I am 43 and just two years ago worked with some of the top nutritionists, doctors and fitness experts in the country. I am not out of tune with what is going on. I have been associated with the end result of Dr. Ann de Wees Allen's work on L-Arginine and her credentials in working with athletes for the last 20 years is impecable. She is the world's most reknowned expert on L-Arginine and has developed a product that can naturally build muscle. You can check out her credentials and tie to athletes on this link.

    Please note this quote on her page:

    Dr. Ann de Wees Allen was the first woman scientist ever asked to lecture at the Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic. She lectured with Arnold on the topic of alternatives to steroids in the athletic arena.

    Arnold said to Dr. Allen , Weve got to get these athletes off steroids. Its killing them". So, Dr. Allen brought her personal clients onstage, including Mr. Unvierse, Ms. Galaxy, and the Strongest Woman in the World (World Powerlifting Federation), to show that top athletes do not have to use steroids to win. She got a standing ovation, and the crowd had to be controlled when they all left the stadium at one time to follow her out to the lobby. There were 60,000 people at that Arnold Classic event.
    I guess Arnold has already come out and said what I thought he would end up saying some years down the line.

    Please note Arnold's endorsements of Dr Allen's work. Just in case you want to claim that she is just promoting a product and the quotes aren't credible.

    http://www.proargi9.com/for_athletes_steroids.htm

    Athletes: http://www.proargi9.com/for_athletes_testimonials.htm

    I haven't checked her site for a bit, looks like she has the world class powerlifters and builders that are natural that Ice said didn't exist.

    As to what concern it is to me? That's an interesting question coming from someone who trains lifters and builders. As I said, I feel that it is important to pay attention to the health of those people that I worked with and one of my passions in life has been to help people with their health. I approach that from helping them in the most responsible way possible. People, in general, go to a trainer to get more healthy. Some want to lose weight, some want to put on muscle. The bottom line mission for me is to help a person achieve their goals without putting their health at risk. As I said, there is research on both sides of the fence. I will always present both sides of the fence to the invidual so they make the most responsible decision they can. That means emphasizing the harms. If you want to tell people to take steroids and it is no big deal, that is your choice. I see that no different than watching medication commercials on tv and then leaving out the possible side effects disclaimer.

    It should be your business how the athletes you consult and train treat their body. I have never met a trainer, until now, that doesn't think it is none of their business, and "what's it to you" if people take steroids. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.




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