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  1. #261
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: Bush authorized NSA to spy on Americans -- seditious Quakers walk amongst us??

    It make most of US sick as well.

    But hey this is a strange way of doing it, but come the next election there will be real change even if it takes a revolution IMHO.

    To many of US have taken An Oath to defend the Constitution.

    Ask Jmervyn and R++
    Last edited by BobCox2; 01-08-2013 at 10:09.

  2. #262
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: Bush authorized NSA to spy on Americans -- seditious Quakers walk amongst us??


  3. #263
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    Re: Bush authorized NSA to spy on Americans -- seditious Quakers walk amongst us??

    http://www.theatlanticwire.com/natio...earches/67864/

    Not sure if this has been posted yet. It's the inevitable result of the data gathering efforts. Does this now create standing in court so we could fight this? It seems like these cases are always getting tossed out on lack of standing.

  4. #264
    Europe Trade Moderator krischan's Avatar
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    Re: Bush authorized NSA to spy on Americans -- seditious Quakers walk amongst us??

    Lavabit email service shut down after rejecting a court order for cooperation with the US government to participate in surveillance on its customers.

    http://lavabit.com/

    Last paragraph:
    "This experience has taught me one very important lesson: without congressional action or a strong judicial precedent, I would _strongly_ recommend against anyone trusting their private data to a company with physical ties to the United States."
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  5. #265
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: Bush authorized NSA to spy on Americans -- seditious Quakers walk amongst us??


  6. #266
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: Bush authorized NSA to spy on Americans -- seditious Quakers walk amongst us??

    White House Knew That Mike Rogers Withheld Details Of NSA Surveillance From Others In Congress

    from the it's-the-coverup-that-gets-you dept

    In the last week or so it's come out that Rep. Mike Rogers, the head of the House Intelligence Committee has actively blocked requests from members of Congress to review details of the NSA's surveillance program -- showing that the claim that everyone in Congress was informed about these programs isn't just a lie but a duplicitous one. And then it got worse. Rep. Justin Amash pointed out that Rogers' committee actually withheld key information from all incoming Representatives in the class of 2010, who had to vote on the Patriot Act's reauthorization, which renewed the program to collect data on all Americans in bulk.

  7. #267
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: Bush authorized NSA to spy on Americans -- seditious Quakers walk amongst us??

    Sad that I feel so alone here.

    Edit: WoT for anyone that cares.


    1. "The Public-Private Surveillance Partnership" by Bruce Schneier, published on 31 Jul 2013: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...rtnership.html
    2. Listen to James Bamford from 20:50 (20 minutes and 50 seconds) to 24:38 (24 minutes and 38 seconds) in "Podcast Show #1: The Boiling Frogs Presents James Bamford" by Boiling Frogs Post, posted on 21 July 2009: http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2009...odcast-show-1/
      Audio link: http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/podp...d_20090721.mp3
    3. "Kafka's America: Secret Courts, Secret Laws, and Total Surveillance" by John W. Whitehead, published on 22 July 2013: http://www.rutherford.org/publicatio...l_surveillance
    4. (a) http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/c...of_our/cakhac4
      (b) http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/c...of_our/cakhbuc
      (c) http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/com...ly_the/cbrhf0y
    5. "Cheney's Law" by FRONTLINE: http://video.pbs.org/video/1082073775/
    6. "The Mythology Of American Democracy" by Carroll Quigley, published in the Winter 1972-1973 issue of Perspectives in Defense Management: http://www.carrollquigley.net/Lectur..._Democracy.htm
    7. "Dissent: Do We Need It" by Carroll Quigley, published (starting on page 21) in the January 1971 issue of Perspectives in Defense Management: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i...iew=1up;seq=33
      Source: http://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015078451690
    8. "Ideology and Terror: A Novel Form of Government" by Hannah Arendt, published July 1953: http://www.mconway.net/page1/page17/...d%20Terror.pdf
    9. "The Age of Authoritarianism: Government of the Politicians, by the Military, for the Corporations" by John W. Whitehead, published on 28 May 2013: http://www.gadflyonline.com/home/ind...-corporations/
    10. "Feds tell Web firms to turn over user account passwords" by Declan McCullagh, published on 25 July 2013: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57...unt-passwords/
    11. "Feds put heat on Web firms for master encryption keys" by Declan McCullagh, published on 24 July 2013: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57...cryption-keys/
    12. (a) "Your Computer May Already be Hacked -- NSA Inside?" by Steve Blank, published on 15 July 2013: http://steveblank.com/2013/07/15/you...ed-nsa-inside/
      (b) "Intel chips could let US spies inside: expert" by Christopher Joye and Paul Smith, published on 30 July 2013: http://www.afr.com/p/technology/inte...1633gCWKt5tFtI
    13. ". . . At a private meeting with financial industry officials a few years ago, Alexander spoke about the proliferation of computer malware aimed at siphoning data from networks, including those of banks. The meeting was described by a participant who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the discussion was off the record.
      His proposed solution: Private companies should give the government access to their networks so it could screen out the harmful software. The NSA chief was offering to serve as an all-knowing virus-protection service, but at the cost, industry officials felt, of an unprecedented intrusion into the financial institutions' databases.
      The group of financial industry officials, sitting around a table at the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, were stunned, immediately grasping the privacy implications of what Alexander was politely but urgently suggesting. As a group, they demurred. . . ."
      Source: "For NSA chief, terrorist threat drives passion to 'collect it all,' observers say" by Ellen Nakashima and Joby Warrick, published on 14 July 2013 at http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/na...211_story.html
    14. "How Justice Anthony Kennedy Helped Bring You the Surveillance State: A decades-old, relatively obscure Supreme Court decision is now the basis for the NSA's collection of metadata" by Matt Berman, published on 9 July 2013: http://www.nationaljournal.com/natio...state-20130709
    15. "House panel withheld document on NSA surveillance program from members" by Peter Wallsten, published on 16 August 2013: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...f84_story.html
    16. "Court: Ability to police U.S. spying program limited" by Carol D. Leonnig, published on 15 August 2013: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...inglePage.html
    17. ". . . The Yahoo ruling, from 2008, shows the company argued that the order violated its users' Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable searches and seizures. The court called that worry 'overblown.'
      'Notwithstanding the parade of horribles trotted out by the petitioner, it has presented no evidence of any actual harm, any egregious risk of error, or any broad potential for abuse,' the court said, adding that the government's 'efforts to protect national security should not be frustrated by the courts.' . . ."
      Source: "Secret Court Ruling Put Tech Companies in Data Bind" by Claire Cain Miller, published on 13 June 2013 at http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/14/te...pagewanted=all
    18. "Top U.S. intelligence officials gathered in the White House Situation Room in March [2012] to debate a controversial proposal. Counterterrorism officials wanted to create a government dragnet, sweeping up millions of records about U.S. citizens--even people suspected of no crime.
      Not everyone was on board. 'This is a sea change in the way that the government interacts with the general public,' Mary Ellen Callahan, chief privacy officer of the Department of Homeland Security, argued in the meeting, according to people familiar with the discussions.
      A week later, the attorney general signed the changes into effect. . . .
      . . . Now, NCTC [National Counterterrorism Center] can copy entire government databases--flight records, casino-employee lists, the names of Americans hosting foreign-exchange students and many others. The agency has new authority to keep data about innocent U.S. citizens for up to five years, and to analyze it for suspicious patterns of behavior. Previously, both were prohibited. Data about Americans 'reasonably believed to constitute terrorism information' may be permanently retained.
      The changes also allow databases of U.S. civilian information to be given to foreign governments for analysis of their own. In effect, U.S. and foreign governments would be using the information to look for clues that people might commit future crimes. . . ."
      Source: "U.S. Terrorism Agency to Tap a Vast Database of Citizens" by Julia Angwin, published on 13 December 2012, available at http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...040640006.html or http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...040640006.html
    19. ". . . The NSA's director of compliance, John DeLong, repeatedly said in a conference call with reporters that the 2,776 violations reflected no willful effort to violate Americans' privacy. "NSA has a zero-tolerance policy for willful misconduct," Mr. DeLong said. "None of the incidents that were in the document released were willful."
      Mr. DeLong reported, however, "a couple" of willful violations in the past decade. He didn't provide details. . . ."
      Source: "NSA Defends Itself After Privacy Breaches Revealed" by Siobhan Gorman, published on 16 August 2013, available at http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...271640822.html or http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...271640822.html
    20. (a) "Ex-NSA Analysts on Their Top-Secret Discoveries", an interview with William Binney and Russell Tice by PBS NewsHour, 1 August 2013: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJS7F-mShpI
      (b) "Podcast Show #112: NSA Whistleblower Goes on Record - Reveals New Information & Names Culprits!", an interview with Russell Tice by Sibel Edmonds' Boiling Frogs Post, posted on 19 June 2013: http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013...ames-culprits/
      Audio link: http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/podp...e_20130617.mp3
      (c) "NSA Whistleblower Russell Tice Offers More Details: Sen. Feinstein and Others Were Wiretapped by NSA" by Peter B. Collins, posted on 15 July 2013: http://www.peterbcollins.com/2013/07...tapped-by-nsa/
    21. Listen very carefully to the questions-and-answers session with William Binney, Thomas Drake, and Jesselyn Radack at the 29th Chaos Communication Congress (29C3) event titled "Enemies of the State: What Happens When Telling the Truth about Secret US Government Power Becomes a Crime" held on 27 December 2012: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBp-1Br_OEs&t=1h22m20s (starts at 1 hour 22 minutes 20 seconds)
      Via: http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/c...of_our/cakhbuc
    22. (a) Former National Security Agency (NSA) official William E. Binney interviewed on 27 July 2013 by John B. Wells on the Coast to Coast AM "Whistleblowers & NSA" show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y78OKI8tzdY&t=41m28s (starts at 41 minutes and 28 seconds)
      (b) Former National Security Agency (NSA) official Thomas Drake interviewed on 16 September 2012 by George Knapp on the Coast to Coast AM "NSA Whistleblower" show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvheNX_R0_U
    23. (a) "James Bamford: 'The Shadow Factory: The Ultra-Secret NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America'", an interview with James Bamford on Democracy Now!, 14 October 2008: http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/...ow_factory_the
      (b) "Fmr. Military Intelligence Sgt. Reveals US Listed Palestine Hotel in Baghdad as Target Prior to Killing of Two Journalists in 2003", an interview with Adrienne Kinne on Democracy Now!, 13 May 2008: http://www.democracynow.org/2008/5/1...cer_reveals_us
    24. "NSA Whistleblower Thomas Drake speaks at National Press Club - March 15, 2013": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Wp2BGLMqDM
    25. Former CIA (Central Intelligence Agency) and NSA (National Security Administration) Director Michael Hayden talks about "Electric Grid Cyber Security", 6 August 2013: http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/314419-1 (starts at 5 minutes and 50 seconds)
    26. A response by Redditor 161719 to the 7 June 2013 post by Redditor legalbeagle05 titled "I believe the government should be allowed to view my e-mails, tap my phone calls, and view my web history for national security concerns. CMV": http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview...wed_to/caeb3pl
      Via: #5 at http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/c...of_our/cakhac4
    Last edited by BobCox2; 21-08-2013 at 06:01.

  8. #268
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: Bush authorized NSA to spy on Americans -- seditious Quakers walk amongst us??

    On point reply from the Internets in Quotes below as no action here.

    Sad but true - But just wait the world will change if we get a chance...
    The reply shows it...

    "We are willing to take action. You're not the first to say this. I and many others agree with the sentiment as well. But right now I'm eating an ice cream sandwich and watching let's plays on youtube. When I type the question of what exactly can we do in between my bites, I'm going to get the inevitable answer of myself and many others needing to put pressure on our representatives, and vote, and protest, etc.
    And then I'm going to go to work tomorrow for 12 hours. And then I'm going to come home and browse a few more submissions with a political context. This will repeat until I'm dead. And even though you and the others talk about how the public needs to want the change, you guys are going through the motions too.
    It's easy to say what needs to happen. But to actually apply what needs to happen, you need to outline and enforce an entire machinery of power and scope and nuance and strategy superior to the incumbent system that yields the current crisis.
    This will not happen.
    I will be among a minority of written missives that go ignored. I will be among a minority of wasted and fractured third party votes that fizzle due to the flaws of the first past the post election system (one that cannot be changed without convincing politicians to legislate themselves out of power). I will be among a minority of protesters that the incumbent machinery has perfected counter-responses to -- of kettling and militarized police fueled by my tax dollars, of a media that marginalizes and marches past our attention, of a political arena that can simply ignore and outlast us.
    Well obviously being the minority is the problem, right? We gotta wake up the majority. Okay... after you!
    And you know what, despite it being im-****ing-possible to challenge the subverted bloated mass of a system that is our state of political and social being, I wouldn't even want to. Because the force needed to fix all this, to go up against the entire soup of alphabet agencies, the entire history of corporate-government allied subversion and corruption, the entities of runaway accumulation of wealth and power, requires such an extent that it would topple the whole goddamn thing. Which is so un-nuanced and would cause so much regression and reset and thus suffering of innocents... that it's frankly a waste of time.
    I don't want to challenge this too powerful of an enemy that is the state. I'm not that Machiavellian. And not while I've still got food and shelter and internet and porn and a social life. Take away those essentials and ask us again. What I'm going to do instead, is stick my *** in the air and hold up a bottle of lube. And then we're all going to hope the parasites have enough foresight not to suck so much blood out of their host country that they kill it. Which is probably expecting too much.
    And then we're going to limp across the technological finish line and become immortal robots."

  9. #269
    Europe Trade Moderator krischan's Avatar
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    Re: Bush authorized NSA to spy on Americans -- seditious Quakers walk amongst us??

    Quote Originally Posted by BobCox2 View Post
    I don't want to challenge this too powerful of an enemy that is the state. I'm not that Machiavellian.
    You don't have to be. You just have to be able to detect them.

    BTW, the whole affair took an almost dadaistic turn in the UK: http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...stroyed-london

    I don't know what to say. I laughed preddy hard about that. Is this stupidity, incompetence, folliwing orders blindly or does it achieve anything which isn't noticed by sheep like us?
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  10. #270
    IncGamers Member BobCox2's Avatar
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    Re: Bush authorized NSA to spy on Americans -- seditious Quakers walk amongst us??

    Well now it's now a known fact in England - "Verification Denied.."
    Ask "The Royal Society" about it perhaps?

    Are there any real members left, or did they all sell out 10+ years ago?
    When the rest of the world apparently did?

    The Royal Society's motto 'Nullius in verba' roughly translates as 'take nobody's word for it'. It is an expression of the determination of Fellows to withstand the domination of authority and to verify all statements by an appeal to facts determined by experiment.
    Last edited by BobCox2; 21-08-2013 at 10:30.

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