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  1. #1
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    Finally, a Republican Sees the Light!

    Comments?

    Link.

    McCain won't concede on torture ban
    Insists on language prohibiting cruel, inhumane treatment

    By Jim Abrams, Associated Press | December 5, 2005

    WASHINGTON -- Senator John McCain, a prisoner of war who was tortured in Vietnam, yesterday said he will refuse to yield on his demands that the White House agree with his proposed ban on the use of torture to extract information from suspected terrorists.

    ''I won't," he said on NBC's ''Meet the Press" when asked whether he would compromise with the Bush administration.

    He is insisting on his language that no person in US custody should be subject to ''cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment."

    The Arizona Republican said he had met several times with the president's national security adviser, Stephen Hadley, on the issue. Both McCain and Hadley said yesterday they were working toward an agreement.

    Hadley, on ABC's ''This Week," repeated President Bush's assertion that the United States does not torture and follows international conventions on the treatment of prisoners.

    He added, ''We're trying to find a way . . . where we can strike the balance between being aggressive to protect the country against the terrorists, and, at the same time, comply with the law."

    ''We're working it. We're not there yet," he said on ''Fox News Sunday."

    McCain, while saying that he would not compromise on the torture language, said they were in discussions ''about other aspects of this to try to get an agreement." He did not elaborate.

    McCain, a Navy flier who was captured by the North Vietnamese and tortured during the Vietnam War, sponsored an antitorture measure that has passed the Senate by a 90-to-9 vote.

    But the White House said it could not accept restrictions that might prevent interrogators from gaining information vital to the nation's security and has threatened a presidential veto of any bill that contained the McCain language.

    McCain noted that intelligence gained through torture can be unreliable and he said the practice hurts the US reputation abroad.

    Senator Richard Lugar, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said on CNN's ''Late Edition" that McCain was on the right track.

    ''I'm hopeful that that position prevails," said Lugar, a Republican of Indiana.

    The top Democrat on the committee, Senator Joseph Biden of Delaware, added that ''the way we've approached the whole issue of prisoners and treatment of them has caused us more problems than any information we could possibly have gotten."

    Senator John F. Kerry, Democrat of Massachusetts, speaking on CBS's ''Face The Nation" said, ''We need a secretary of defense who thinks like John McCain."

    Kerry said, ''I'm amazed Secretary [Donald H.] Rumsfeld is still there. I believe Secretary Rumsfeld has misconducted this war in the most extraordinary way, from the first decisions about when and how to go in through the last 2 1/2 years."



  2. #2
    Banned Sir EvilFreeSmeg's Avatar
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    McCain's a Republican in name only. Much as Zell Miller was a Democrat in name only.

    This thread is merely sour grapes. Please refrain from going insane in '06




  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Conservative Inc
    McCain's a Republican in name only. Much as Zell Miller was a Democrat in name only.

    This thread is merely sour grapes. Please refrain from going insane in '06
    Red herrings abound in the very first post! I love it! Classic Smeg!

    Torture is good, right Smeg?




  4. #4
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    Funny

    Did anyone really read all of that?




  5. #5
    Banned Sir EvilFreeSmeg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkCajun
    Torture is good, right Smeg?
    Not it's not. But I don't want the last resort option to be taken from us.

    Anyway, if torture didn't work, why did McCain insert a a "ticking timebomb" clause? Does that mean that it actually does work??? :eek: Of course it works. Anybody can be broken. Whether or not you get the information you're after is another thing but that's why we leave such things up to people trained to do interrogations.

    But I guess that you'd rather not have that option open woudl you? Even if it could be that last half of a percent chance to stop a nuke from killing you and your family, you'd rather die feeling good that you saved one man to sacrifice millions :rolleyes:




  6. #6
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    Do some reading and you'll start to understand why I have reservations about giving one human being carte-blanche power over another human being with absolutely no repercussions.

    http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB73/

    http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/.../761004dos.pdf
    http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/.../780531dos.pdf

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/029...books&v=glance

    And Abu Ghraib has shown we have a great record of being able to keep that power in check, right?




  7. #7
    Banned Bortaz's Avatar
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    I need someone to define 'torture' for me. Where is the line drawn between making someone uncomfortable enough to give up information and torturing them?

    Is blaring loud rock music all the time torture?

    What about bright lights?

    Sleep deprivation?

    Women in bras and panties?

    Using dogs?

    Slapping them around?

    Electrical shocks?


    What is torture?




  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Conservative Inc
    Even if it could be that last half of a percent chance to stop a nuke from killing you and your family, you'd rather die feeling good that you saved one man to sacrifice millions :rolleyes:
    Andarcel and I duked it out on the WoW.net forums already over this one. At what point is it ethical to kill one man to save another? Kill one to save two? Kill one to save a dozen?

    Of course, in this case, the point is moot, because we're not talking about even the strict utilitarianism of the aforementioned situation. In your world, it's okay to kill one person to possibly get some information that possibly might be credible, that possibly could be acted on to possibly save an undetermined amount of unknown people's lives.

    And that's just scary. :cheesy:



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    "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

  9. #9
    "It's not about who they are. It's about who we are." - John McCain

    McCain, 2008! Woo! We need someone reasonable and sincere in office.

    And laughably, apparently Kerry still thinks people care about his opinion. Face it, you lost to Bush for God's sake. You were so bad, in other words, the US public decided to vote for someone the majority of them hated just so you wouldn't get elected. Give up and go home already.



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    "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

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