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  1. #101
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    Ok, this thread is great, iíve been thinking all day about it
    I think we should see how the battle would go by talking about it.

    Iíll start with the setting:

    Caesar vs Ghenghis Khan.

    Restrictions: Gunpowder


    open terrain with no natural borders. Large enough to ensure enough movement for both armies.

    Both armies arrive at just the same moment.

    Caesar will probably have his soldiers first ready for battle because the roman troops marched in units. Meaning: if you see one, you see all (exception are scouts and messengers, but we are talking about armies).


    ARMIES

    both armies consist out of + - 15.000 man

    Also, both armies can use balista's (The mongols used these to, but to lesser extend because they had gunpowder) For the argument we can agree that they both use the same quality of ballista's

    Roman army: 2 legions: 2 * 5000 well trained infantry soldiers, 4500 auxiliaries troops like archers and slingers (divided over the 2 legions as it used to be) and 500 cavalry soldiers


    Ghenghis Kahn: 12.000 cavalry soldiers (use of bow and closer combat) and 3000 infantry troops

    These mongol infantry is not as well trained as the roman infantry, more the poorer soldiers who couldnít afford a horse or lost one, kinda like the medieval peasant militia with some training and decent weapons.


    Any comments before the battle begins?




  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bert
    Any comments before the battle begins?
    Yeah... How exactly are you going to do anything? I doubt any of us here as the same strategic mind as that of Khan or Caesar...So it's kinda dificult to simulate the events...




  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bert
    Ok, this thread is great, i’ve been thinking all day about it
    I think we should see how the battle would go by talking about it.

    I’ll start with the setting:

    Caesar vs Ghenghis Khan.

    Restrictions: Gunpowder


    open terrain with no natural borders. Large enough to ensure enough movement for both armies.

    Both armies arrive at just the same moment.

    Caesar will probably have his soldiers first ready for battle because the roman troops marched in units. Meaning: if you see one, you see all (exception are scouts and messengers, but we are talking about armies).


    ARMIES

    both armies consist out of + - 15.000 man

    Also, both armies can use balista's (The mongols used these to, but to lesser extend because they had gunpowder) For the argument we can agree that they both use the same quality of ballista's

    Roman army: 2 legions: 2 * 5000 well trained infantry soldiers, 4500 auxiliaries troops like archers and slingers (divided over the 2 legions as it used to be) and 500 cavalry soldiers


    Ghenghis Kahn: 12.000 cavalry soldiers (use of bow and closer combat) and 3000 infantry troops

    These mongol infantry is not as well trained as the roman infantry, more the poorer soldiers who couldn’t afford a horse or lost one, kinda like the medieval peasant militia with some training and decent weapons.


    Any comments before the battle begins?

    While tactics and strategy will come into a large part of this, the Mongols have a definite advantage over the Romans in this setup.

    Light cavalry can easily harass the roman archers and keep them ineffective. For example, in the battle between William Wallace and the English, Wallace lost because his cavalry deserted him, leaving his infantry completely vulnerable to the English longbow archers, while his own archers were harassed by English cavalry.

    Massed infantry are also much more vulnerable to artillery fire than cavalry, and the Romans are going to sustain much greater casualties from artillery than the Mongols.

    As I see it, the Mongols will put their artillery into devastating effect against the Legionnaires, while the cavalry moves to engage any groups that break away from the main formation, while Mongol infantry remains as reserve out of Roman artillery range.

    Roman artillery will have limited effect on cavalry due to their mobility, and must spare infantry forces to guard the artillery, possibly setting them up in a fortified spot. This, however, limits the area of fire of their artillery, allowing Mongol troops to easily stay out of artillery range.

    This essentially makes the Roman infantry sitting ducks if they want to stay within their own artillery covering, vulnerable to small groups of hit-and-run attacks by the cavalry. If the infantry moves out of artillery cover, they will come under fire by Mongol artillery, and the Romans will be a lot more vulnerable to artillery fire than the Mongols.

    Either way, whether on the attack or on the defense, the Romans have a severe disadvantage in this.




  4. #104
    IncGamers Member Ash Housewares's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dondrei
    Yeah but this is the ancient world, ie pre-1.10.
    pierce still works? oh man, Mongols with GA for the win




  5. #105
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    Ok, to clear up the ballista thing.

    There were three main types. 1 man ballista, like a really strong crossbow. A 3-4 man ballista, very strong with good range. Could be loaded aimed and shot in under a minute. Then the siege ballista that shot either really big stones or battering ram.

    The 3 man ballista could take out horses with chain shot, tie up their legs and make the fall(breaking whatever legs are tied up) or by actually going through the leg. Of course this depended on range. Caesar would know the Mongols wouldn't stay in one place and order a large spray to be fired at once. He could make the ground so littered with dead/dying horses other horses would have a hard time moving between them.

    Or if it happens to be summer(maybe winter if its dry) light the grass on fire and scare the horses that way.




  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by {KOW}Spazed
    Ok, to clear up the ballista thing.

    There were three main types. 1 man ballista, like a really strong crossbow. A 3-4 man ballista, very strong with good range. Could be loaded aimed and shot in under a minute. Then the siege ballista that shot either really big stones or battering ram.

    The 3 man ballista could take out horses with chain shot, tie up their legs and make the fall(breaking whatever legs are tied up) or by actually going through the leg. Of course this depended on range. Caesar would know the Mongols wouldn't stay in one place and order a large spray to be fired at once. He could make the ground so littered with dead/dying horses other horses would have a hard time moving between them.

    Or if it happens to be summer(maybe winter if its dry) light the grass on fire and scare the horses that way.
    Again, the Mongols also had access to artillery, it just happened to be mainly cannons, which is being restricted. It's only fair then, that either neither side gets artillery, or both gets it. Since the Mongols were technologically more advanced, they should get at least the same grade of artillery as Romans.

    It is highly unlikely that Genghis Khan will order his cavalry to charge fortified roman positions under heavy artillery fire. It is far more likely that he will send the cavalries to circle just out of Roman artillery range, using bows to pick off stray infantry.

    While artillery can be devastating against cavalry, all other things being equal, infantry is a hell of a lot more vulnerable to artillery than cavalry.




  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bert
    Both armies arrive at just the same moment.

    Caesar will probably have his soldiers first ready for battle because the roman troops marched in units. Meaning: if you see one, you see all (exception are scouts and messengers, but we are talking about armies).
    Nobody seems to have noticed the importance of this.

    The Romans would set up palisades and dig in. They used to do this so I don't see why they wouldn't do it this time.

    I am not saying that the palisades are invulnerable against ballista fire, but these palisades would allow the Roman infantry to be less vulnerable against artillery AND attacks from cavalry without using formations.

    This would force the Mongols to attack, becoming very weak against Roman ballista fire.


    Also note that William Wallaceís troops existed completely out of militia. Almost no trained archers and surely not the equipment the Romans used (especially the shields).

    Iím not saying the Ceasar would win, but Iím thinking that the odds favour him here.


    Bert




  8. #108
    IncGamers Member Stevinator's Avatar
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    well this is hardly fair. one of our combatants has several hundred years better technology than the other. even without gunpowder, Khan's got the upper hand there. remember this isn't a bunch of guys on horses with bows...khan did favor these type of warriors, but he had a whole army. and caesar had more than just infantry. he had his own calvary, archers etc....they just found different systems worked very well to defeat the enemies they had been encountering.

    I'm going khan, but if they had access to the same equipment I am just not sure.




  9. #109
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    how about we do this:
    give both of them modern troops to work with, get them up-to-date on current weapon technologies and such, and see who wins? then it all boils down to their capabilities as military strategists.




  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdf
    how about we do this:
    give both of them modern troops to work with, get them up-to-date on current weapon technologies and such, and see who wins? then it all boils down to their capabilities as military strategists.
    Or let them play chess...




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