We Should Have An Intelectual Debate (or DUEL) On Any Topic...Read on(philosophy)

[DanteAlastor]

We won't find a panacea for cancer but we will find a treatment for each and every cancer that will allow us to die of old age before we die of cancer (though how long before this prophecy comes to pass is anyone's guess...we have treatments that eradicate cancers but none that absolutely prevent cancer's recurrence). We won't evolve to the point where we are cancer immune because cancer won't let us...it will evolve along with us (most cancers are caused by something called oncogenes; when these oncogenes are turned on, cancer can result if our normal anti-cancer genes aren't functioning properly; these oncogenes are themselves mutants and as such change over time, creating the same cancer but in a different fashion).

virus evolve faster than humans... arg.. future humans "might" be immune to todays cancer/disease but will not be immune to future diseases. since cancers/cells evolve at a faster rate by having new types of DNA structures?
so we are stuck on a never ending quest to create an antidote/drugs/full rejuvination/allcure... which means we will never get the resistance to all types of disease... LIFE AS WE KNOW IT IS GOOD . :lol:

[Suicidal Zebra]

But I will now! Ha ha, she prefers women!

Good to 'see' you SZ. Summer already ?

Nah, just saw this discussion thread by a guy called Alastor, and as we all know hilarity loves company.

Plus Uni is getting me down, and spamming random comments in dull threads perks me up a little

And as for butchering English, this isn't butchering English. We've been butchering the English for centuries and know what butchering looks like...

Perhaps I've said too much...

[Anakha1]

God exists because something can only produce something.

God IS TOO OMNIPOTENT to have a begining, therefore God doesnt have a begining or the end...

That whole thing is just one giant paradox. In one post you say everything must have a creator and in the next you say god has no creator. You can't make a definitive statement and then disprove it in the next. And no, things don't need something else to create them by your logic. If god can exist forever and has existed forever, then so can the universe? The universe has always been and always will be, in one form or another and has no need of a god.

[djoat]

As kyro said, God created time, therefore anything 'before' God is impossible for us to conceive. Put simply, even if God came from somewhere, it is out of the boundaries of our deduction and logic. If you have the power to create something, the beings you create would be inferior to you and have no clue as to why they were created or where you came from either.

The universe always existing is something perhaps as absurd, if not more than the fact that God exists. The Universe as we know it, includes time. God does not. If the universe has always existed, this will include an infinite amout of time. Since evolution started at a certain point in time, we cannot say that it has always existed.

Unless you are saying that the universe, has for an infinite amout of time remained static, until something triggered life. Infinite is incomprehensible, and the way life would start only after such an amout of time is likewise, imcomprehensible. God however created time. The universe conforms with time. The universe cannot then have possible created time. God is outside time. Imagine God as an author. An author creates the setting, the time period, the environment in the book. He's also 'outside' the 'time' in the book.
He can write "Instantly, at the next moment, John realized...." then he stops writing to think for an hour, and continues his statement.

God created time and has always been outside of time. The universe cannot have had always existed, merely because it conforms with time.

[SilentMagik]

Ahh, but the whole point is that God always existed.

I realize that. I just wanted to point out the absurdity in the chain of reasoning here. It strange how someone can argue "because it exists it must have been created" and then in the next sentence change his/hers own way of reasoning completely by claiming God always existed. You cant have it both ways! Yet another proof that logic and religion dont mix. That is why this whole discussion is kinda going in circles.

[Namyeknom]

I realize that. I just wanted to point out the absurdity in the chain of reasoning here. It strange how someone can argue "because it exists it must have been created" and then in the next sentence change his/hers own way of reasoning completely by claiming God always existed. You cant have it both ways! Yet another proof that logic and religion dont mix. That is why this whole discussion is kinda going in circles.

Shhh, I don't think anyones noticed... :eek:

Back to the topic though, its still unprovable using the creation of the universe as an example. Any arguement on the beginnings of the universe revolve around a point at which time began (either through creation by God, or at the point when the universe came into being) and as someone said (djoat, i think), we have no way of speculating on what caused this as it is outside our deductive capacity.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

That couldn't have been an ad-hom arguement because Mac didn't make reference to Dick Cheney's lesbian daughter.

:lol:

Garbad

[Anakha1]

As kyro said, God created time, therefore anything 'before' God is impossible for us to conceive. Put simply, even if God came from somewhere, it is out of the boundaries of our deduction and logic. If you have the power to create something, the beings you create would be inferior to you and have no clue as to why they were created or where you came from either.

The universe always existing is something perhaps as absurd, if not more than the fact that God exists. The Universe as we know it, includes time. God does not. If the universe has always existed, this will include an infinite amout of time. Since evolution started at a certain point in time, we cannot say that it has always existed.

Unless you are saying that the universe, has for an infinite amout of time remained static, until something triggered life. Infinite is incomprehensible, and the way life would start only after such an amout of time is likewise, imcomprehensible. God however created time. The universe conforms with time. The universe cannot then have possible created time. God is outside time. Imagine God as an author. An author creates the setting, the time period, the environment in the book. He's also 'outside' the 'time' in the book.
He can write "Instantly, at the next moment, John realized...." then he stops writing to think for an hour, and continues his statement.

God created time and has always been outside of time. The universe cannot have had always existed, merely because it conforms with time.

Just because something is incomprehensible doesn't make it impossible. There is no rhyme nor reason to believe that an intelligent and self-aware omnipotenent being a) exists or b) created the universe. And nothing is outside of the confines of time. Time is the be all, end all. Without it there is nothing. Including god.

Evolution in and of itself is no proof that the universe has at one point never existed. Notice before I said "in one form or another". Prior to the big bang or whatever triggered the formation of celestial bodies to create what we know as the universe, the universe still existed but in a form far from what we are familiar with. It is a common fallacy that there was "nothing" before the big bang. Ie. no time, no universe, no matter, nothing. That's wrong. The big bang includes that the universe existed before and was filled with matter. Time existed. The state of evolution that runs off the pace of the big bang therefore, your 'beginning of the universe', is no definitive marker of how long time or the universe has existed. Both could have certainly have existed together and forever just as god could have. I'm far more likely to believe the former if based on nothing other than pure statistical probability.

[djoat]

I'm far more likely to believe the former if based on nothing other than pure statistical probability.

I'm sure exploding some bricks, cement and wood together has a higher statistical probability of creating a mansion than the that of having a designer and contracter working together to form one.

Time is the be all, end all. Without it there is nothing. Including god.

Imagine something you can comprehend, and think from there. Imagine a character IN game that is actually alive, and this character thinks that without the uswest server, there is nothing, at all. Thats because everything in game exists on the server, the items, the monsters, the way you level. The character cannot imagine something without the server, just like you cannot imagine something before time. All he knows is the server. There is nothing else. The chacter thinks that without the server, there is nothing. (including blizzard programmers??) You think that without time, there is nothing. (including God.)

[Stevinator]

I'm sure exploding some bricks, cement and wood together has a higher statistical probability of creating a mansion than the that of having a designer and contracter working together to form one.

Clearly you have little understanding of evolution. Given the conditions on earth 4 billion years ago, it is very likely that those amino acids would have formed, and that life would have started on it's journey. 4 billion years is a long time, and it was only a mtter of time before that life became more complicated.

IT seems much more liekly to me that we evolved using the things we know exist than by something that just sounds pretty made up. How can you possibly say your god (or jesus or whatever) is the right one when there are so many different ideas about what this god thing is all about. don't you think that's pretty arrogant?

Imagine something you can comprehend, and think from there. Imagine a character IN game that is actually alive, and this character thinks that without the uswest server, there is nothing, at all. Thats because everything in game exists on the server, the items, the monsters, the way you level. The character cannot imagine something without the server, just like you cannot imagine something before time. All he knows is the server. There is nothing else. The chacter thinks that without the server, there is nothing. (including blizzard programmers??) You think that without time, there is nothing. (including God.)

so your argument is there is a god because I can't imagine it?

How about this. Aside from our existence--which could have come from god or from the current scientific theory, what reason do I have to bother believing in any god, much less yours?

none of the gods that people believe in today have any effect on my life at all.

So why believe in them? what advantage does altering my belief structure to yours mean for me? I can see lots of deteriments, as if I believe in god, I lose science, which has helped explain a lot about this world.

Is there any REAL advantage for me while here on this planet? because you haven't convinced me of the existence of heaven either.


It seems to me, science aids me greatly, and religion--any of them, not so much. belief in god certainly didn't bring me this laptop, or heck, even fire.