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  1. #21
    IncGamers Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigru
    atm my comando is waiting for spirit and insight from ladder, and i need anni and bramble, then use bramble/insight on a might merc, +the spirit of barbs from wisp and amp gives me say 2000% damage returned? (i dunno bout this) i have 16 of each type of skele, allthough i will be soon remaking without mages, so say 16 warriors and 8 mages, 22 revives ( 1 skill point) + golem+merc+spirit+me =50 things in my party, also maxing spear/spirit and using marrow bug. also use corpse explosion alot. I use beast myself, will have base str base dex and base energy, and cta, so lots of life.

    also i think attract could be useful for the pvm type of this build. I personally wont be using it, as im mainly built for pvp.
    This touches on something which I wanted to cover, but considered too technical at the time.

    Lets say you have 50 minions. And there are only say an average of ten monsters that you fight at any particular time... is it worthwhile focusing on damage return?

    Possibly not.

    Damage return has the nice feature that the greater the number of enemies, the more effective it is (in a way, like an area effect spell).

    Examples: Thorns, Corpse Explosion.

    But once we start outnumbering the enemies, then perhaps we should be focusing on skills/spells which become more effective the more minions we have.

    Examples: Skeleton Mastery, Amplify Damage.

    Actually, since I'm using Amp to boost the Thorns damage then I guess it does both, it scales up with the number on my side *and* the number of enemies I'm facing.

    This is why I was suggesting that someone going for the high end rune words + large pile of minions, should be focusing not on Damage Returned, but on things that boost their own troops, such as Fanaticism.

    In a way its similar to the Might vs Holy Freeze discussion. Here's a question: if you had to choose between an aura which would make your side attack twice as fast, or one that wuld make the other side attack only half as often, which should you choose? It turns out that the choice will never change the result of the battle. If you were going to lose with one aura, you'd lose with the other as well. If you were going to win with one aura, you'd also win with the other. So the correct choice is to go with the result that wins the fastest.

    You could say, why not go for a bit of both? Why not mix my auras so I have some which boost my side, and some which get better the more enemies there are? But I'd say that with 50 minions, the scales are so far tipped in one particular direction anyway that its pointless.




  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickcarson
    This touches on something which I wanted to cover, but considered too technical at the time.

    Lets say you have 50 minions. And there are only say an average of ten monsters that you fight at any particular time... is it worthwhile focusing on damage return?

    Possibly not.

    Damage return has the nice feature that the greater the number of enemies, the more effective it is (in a way, like an area effect spell).

    Examples: Thorns, Corpse Explosion.

    But once we start outnumbering the enemies, then perhaps we should be focusing on skills/spells which become more effective the more minions we have.

    Examples: Skeleton Mastery, Amplify Damage.

    Actually, since I'm using Amp to boost the Thorns damage then I guess it does both, it scales up with the number on my side *and* the number of enemies I'm facing.

    This is why I was suggesting that someone going for the high end rune words + large pile of minions, should be focusing not on Damage Returned, but on things that boost their own troops, such as Fanaticism.

    In a way its similar to the Might vs Holy Freeze discussion. Here's a question: if you had to choose between an aura which would make your side attack twice as fast, or one that wuld make the other side attack only half as often, which should you choose? It turns out that the choice will never change the result of the battle. If you were going to lose with one aura, you'd lose with the other as well. If you were going to win with one aura, you'd also win with the other. So the correct choice is to go with the result that wins the fastest.

    You could say, why not go for a bit of both? Why not mix my auras so I have some which boost my side, and some which get better the more enemies there are? But I'd say that with 50 minions, the scales are so far tipped in one particular direction anyway that its pointless.

    i like to pvm everywhere (cows included), and the only difference this bramble will make is some lower def for merc (no eth stone), other than that then my char is exactly the same as i would have it without the damage returned mod.

    and for pvp thorns is very useful, its more effective with amp then iron maiden on its own, so against all melee chars when they hit my skeles they get major hurt on them also most of the time i dont use revives, so it will be about 30 minions




  3. #23
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    I did see any mention of useing the Angelic Combo for AR problems...just thought I would point it out as a possibility.

    -Starcrunch




  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starcrunch
    I did see any mention of useing the Angelic Combo for AR problems...just thought I would point it out as a possibility.

    -Starcrunch
    Well spotted. I *was* thinking of mentioning in an off hand manner the 'standard pvp' solutions for AR. But that along with some other stuff didn't make the first draft.

    Here's the basic problem though: you are already using up:
    Helm, Body Armour, 1 Ring, Amulet, Weapon and Shield... and you're on something like -60% resist all in Hell. Ouchies!

    Somehow with charms and gloves, belt, boots and 1 ring slot you've got to try to get a if not decent then at least workable level of resistances.

    My proposed solution: just give up on the concept of hitting stuff with the bow. And/or give the bow to an act 1 merc.

    It's actually quite easy to play it like a standard 'general'. Ie stand in the middle, cast curses and give orders. On the other hand, trying to pretend that you're a strafing zon is just gonna be frustrating.




  5. #25
    D2/3 Necromancer & Witch Doctor Moderator Mad Mantis's Avatar
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    Thread unstuck after collecting critique and the author informed.




  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Mantis
    Thread unstuck after collecting critique and the author informed.
    Should I do a new thread for the multi-part update, or just tack on the new versions on the end of this thread?




  7. #27
    D2/3 Necromancer & Witch Doctor Moderator Mad Mantis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickcarson
    Should I do a new thread for the multi-part update, or just tack on the new versions on the end of this thread?
    Make a new thread for the update. That thread will be added to the [ Essential Necromancer Information ] sticky.




  8. #28
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    nice work man, looks like a fun build
    Im still unclear about the gear though. Are you supposed to use edge as an endgame wepaon or is that only for lvling? Cus when you suggested bramble merc I was confused since it wouldnt stack with edges thorns aura right?
    And what about the rest of the gear? Other than helm and body armor I didnt see any other recommendations.
    And are the core skills the ones that should be maxed?




  9. #29
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    And what about monsters thet are not efected by thorns..
    gloams vamps etc..

    lets say Ur facing pack of burning souls act5 hell..
    no other monsters around
    is merc should start corpse or two for CE or
    revives themself will do some dmg and kill something actualy..

    if merc uses insight dont count on much dmg from him
    maybe I miss it but U didnt mentiomed 20SM to boost revives dmg

    if revives in hell even maxed cant do eny dmg then skelies would be better
    choise coz with 10-15 of them oll monsters are easily hiting them and
    beign hiting back..(if have alot of +to skills)

    well gloams etc will eventualy use their melee attack but thet can take a
    while to be killd by thorns coz they have well weak melee atack..

    note:I talk about hell here.. revives ar far better in nm and normal.

    so can gloams vamps kill themself in hell with melee attack with lvl 15 thorns
    and merc to srart CE chain..??
    and how about those tempetest they are imune to physical and have
    no melee backup attack..

    anyway good build its nice to see something difrent
    I'll probably make one soon with bramble and edge.




  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenSolid
    nice work man, looks like a fun build
    Im still unclear about the gear though. Are you supposed to use edge as an endgame wepaon or is that only for lvling? Cus when you suggested bramble merc I was confused since it wouldnt stack with edges thorns aura right?
    And what about the rest of the gear? Other than helm and body armor I didnt see any other recommendations.
    And are the core skills the ones that should be maxed?
    Here's what I've done:

    Prayer Merc + Insight
    Edge runeword in an Edge Bow (I don't attack, I cast spells (even with 90 dex my ar sux, so i don't care if its not optimum damage))
    Level 17 Corpse Explosion
    Level 9-10 Amp
    Level 6 Clay Golem
    Level 6 Golem Mastery (and then I found a nice FG wand, so I use that on weapon switch instead )
    Level 15 Revive
    Level 1 Skeleton Mastery

    Bramble + Edge Thorns will stack.

    I like the idea of being able to push the bow off onto my Merc, so I can use all my + skills gear (I don't have any at the moment except an Undead Crown I found, which again, I am wearing for style points).

    But I also like the *huge* amounts of mana that Insight gives me, so I don't want to give that up either (would probably end up carrying the Insight myself if I used a Rogue)... even with 15+ revives my orb is full most of the time, by my rough calculations I could go as high as level 60 Revive before running into mana problems. So plenty of spare mana to CE everything that doesn't get revived.

    If I had an Enigma and a Bramble, I'd wear the Enigma, and stick the Bramble + Edge on the merc (I'd make Edge in a decent bow if I was doing that) - and then I'd carry the Insight (would want to make it in a scythe )

    The only things that come even close to giving me a concern are the Gloams/Black Souls, because my gear is rubbish, and I have bad resists.




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