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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickcarson
    As far as I can tell a decent level of Gumby slows Baal (after a few hits) to the same speed that Gumby + Decrepify does. So it seems to me that the Decrepify part of the equation is entirely unneccessary.
    A while ago I remembered that every now and then people report that Decrep isn't necessary vs. Baal. Note that this is just *one* experiment --- after I had setup things as usual, I replaced the decrep with amp; next thing that happened was that Baal was suddenly gone (he had teleported). At the time he was (hopefully) slowed by Gumby already, and I most likely had a few cold mages as well (I just take what I get, so I assume in my crowd of 12 mages was at least one cold).

    He has teleported away from me only once in this season so far, once I had him under control. I'll try it a few more times, but right now I'm still convinced that I'll continue using Decrep on him. This was only a lvl 11 Gumby, though (I don't bother weaponswitching for Gumby since I relocate him frequently; else it would be 13).




  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrakh-2
    A while ago I remembered that every now and then people report that Decrep isn't necessary vs. Baal. Note that this is just *one* experiment --- after I had setup things as usual, I replaced the decrep with amp; next thing that happened was that Baal was suddenly gone (he had teleported). At the time he was (hopefully) slowed by Gumby already, and I most likely had a few cold mages as well (I just take what I get, so I assume in my crowd of 12 mages was at least one cold).

    He has teleported away from me only once in this season so far, once I had him under control. I'll try it a few more times, but right now I'm still convinced that I'll continue using Decrep on him. This was only a lvl 11 Gumby, though (I don't bother weaponswitching for Gumby since I relocate him frequently; else it would be 13).
    It makes no difference in Hell because slow attacks are capped at 50%. In nightmare I think it's 75 or 60 or something. In Normal, Gumby, decrep, and ice attacks combined are hilarious. He looks like a bad stop frame animation movie. High enough lvl gumby, you get 50% so you'd be better off using amp damage. I don't think normal slow/ice attacks reduce the actual physical damage they do like Decrep does, however.




  3. #13
    D2/3 Necromancer & Witch Doctor Moderator Mad Mantis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickcarson
    oh yeah, effective in Hell??? With 20+ Revives and chain casting CE, you're joking right???
    Actually, I was referring to the Thorns.

    */me stickies for input*




    Quote Originally Posted by Pherdnut
    It makes no difference in Hell because slow attacks are capped at 50%.
    No it isn't. It is only capped at 50% when slow is used against players. You should read this thread for some more info on Slow.




  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Mantis
    Like this:

    Code:
    Skill Points	Skellies	Revives
    4		3		1
    5		3		2
    6		4		3
    7		4		4
    8		4		5
    9		5		6
    ...
    12		6		9
    ...
    15		7		12
    ...
    18		8		15
    ...
    20		8		17
    Thanks for that. The tabs in the table is a nice trick,
    but hey, what else are we going to use wordpad for, eh?




  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrakh-2
    I'll try it a few more times, but right now I'm still convinced that I'll continue using Decrep on him.
    Hey, keep doing what works for you.

    If the doco in the thread MadMantis linked to is correct you have at least three sources of slow.

    Call it 53% for the Golem, another 50% for the cold, so we're down to 23.5% of normal speed already. Whack on another 50%, and its down to 11.75%. Wow! That does make quite a difference. Oh wait, but if we look at it another way, the decrepify only took the total slowing from 76.5% to 88.25%.

    And if there are other sources, then its even harder to tell the effect of Decrepify. (It would add less than 6% with one other source, or less than 3% with two more) I don't think anyone could really tell the difference between 94% slowed and 97% slowed.

    My observation with Decrepify is that it slows *right now*. Thats the main advantage for Decrepify as far as slowing goes (yes, it does other things, but they're not important in this context). Whereas with Gumby it seems to me like his slow effect takes a while to kick in. Eg after Gumby has been at something for a while, whatever it is will be slowed to a crawl. In that respect I disagree with what was said in that other thread. I do not think his full and final slow % kicks in with his first swing. And I also don't think that his slow is capped at what it is listed as.

    But hey, maybe I'm wrong, maybe its just wishful thinking on my part (which is my explanation for the claims that Gumby and Furby are damage magnets). Or maybe I am right about what I am seeing, but my explanation is wrong (maybe I'm interrupting Baal's attacks in ways other than slow%, eg forcing him to block or go into hit recovery perhaps?? (Knockback? Crushing Blow?)). Maybe when I recast Gumby he counts as a new source of slow% and thats when his slowing stacks?

    A possible explanation could be that (as MadMantis said in the other thread) if Baal has something next to him, he's a lot more likely to do a melee attack than a big elemental attack... and who would notice or care if Gumby (or a Skellie) got whacked a few times after all?

    My main difficulty with Baal is simply getting the Revives around and onto the bridge. If Baal teleports off the bridge, or makes a clone, that often makes my job a lot easier. Its also easier if I remember to recast Gumby onto the bridge, but often I forget to do that.

    If you find yourself having any difficulty with Baal, I'd just advise you to do exactly what you did to beat the Diablo Clone.




  6. #16
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    For my first foray into battle.net, I've chosen a build almost identical to this, with the exception of skellies being a main part of the attack force as well. At level 49, it sounds like I've made several good decisions almost by luck, which you apparently had trouble with. For example, I've only put 5 points into Dex, enough to hold a short battle bow with Edge, and I never even try to attack. You mentioned that Prayer was almost useless in Nightmare, and I've had a Might merc since I was able to use one (he's still got Insight).

    I think the way I'm playing it will end up being more versatile, if less powerful. While I still want Thorns to play a major part, Might and skeleton bonuses working together will mean decent regular damage as well. I don't know how much Thorns is doing for me right now, but Bramble is my next big goal. When and if I get an Enigma, I can give Bramble to the merc and ditch Edge, freeing up 3 slots for whatever +skills, MF or other auras I might want.

    I don't understand your adversity to skeletons. I've decided to make Revive my final max skill, but the skeletons are tearing it up for me right now. Mages die quickly, but there are many good reasons for having them:

    - More minions (obviously)
    - Max SM anyway for skellies just means more total bonuses
    - They follow much better and have no 3 min. time limit, thus I worry less about having enough corpses
    - Second line of defense; skellies rush forward, mages fire from behind, I stand behind them
    - Mages + Lower Resist for various immunes (yet more versatility)

    I am patient enough that I don't mind slowing my enemies, even if this lowers the effectiveness of Thorns. Despite any damage from Thorns, I believe that less damage of any kind is a good thing. Instead of taking 5 hits and the monster killing itself, my skellies take 3 hits and do the rest in normal damage. This means my army has more staying power, and makes the mages all the more effective as well.

    I dunno, maybe I've screwed myself in the end, as I've never experienced Hell before. But at least I can say that it sounded good at the time.




  7. #17
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    Skelimancer + Edge Comparison?

    @UncleSporky: I'm sorry, I was going to cover your build in the Skelimancer with Edge section, but ran out of time.

    Basically I see your build as a standard Skelimancer, with Edge thrown in. Now, there nothing wrong with that per se, but I believe the best thing to do (in your situation) would be to concentrate on the Skellies.

    You say it yourself, at some point you intend to throw away the Edge bow. In effect it is a stepping stone, something to help you along the way, but not the ultimate end destination.

    I would suggest you look into the Commandomancer style options to boost your Skellies with Fanat, etc.

    Secondly, as far as mixing Skellies and Mages, I think this is pretty much always a bad idea. It might actually make your build worse (people complain about the mages 'getting in the way' etc) - and I certainly believe those 20 points could be spent better elsewhere.

    Lastly when it comes to comparing Skellies and Revives, how many Skellies do you have? 8? And how many skill points did you spend, 40? That is one skeleton for every five skill points (!).

    I spent 10 on Revive, put one in mastery, and there are five prereqs, for a total of 16 skill points spent to get 10 minions. My minions are over 3.1 times cheaper than yours.

    Yet because of Edge, our minions are roughly the same in effectiveness, in fact, because I have greater numbers, I have a small advantage against large groups (whereas you have the advantage against anything that Edge doesn't effect, eg Gargoyle traps).

    Edge means that quality of minions isn't as important as quantity of minions - and that is something at which Revive beats all the other options hands down.




  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickcarson
    Basically I see your build as a standard Skelimancer, with Edge thrown in. Now, there nothing wrong with that per se, but I believe the best thing to do (in your situation) would be to concentrate on the Skellies.

    You say it yourself, at some point you intend to throw away the Edge bow. In effect it is a stepping stone, something to help you along the way, but not the ultimate end destination.

    I would suggest you look into the Commandomancer style options to boost your Skellies with Fanat, etc.
    You mean you don't intend to eventually throw away Edge? There are other auras more effective than Thorns that could be equipped in either hand (if I remember right). My aim in the build is essentially the same, except I hope to someday have even more auras for my army through runewords.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickcarson
    Secondly, as far as mixing Skellies and Mages, I think this is pretty much always a bad idea. It might actually make your build worse (people complain about the mages 'getting in the way' etc) - and I certainly believe those 20 points could be spent better elsewhere.

    Lastly when it comes to comparing Skellies and Revives, how many Skellies do you have? 8? And how many skill points did you spend, 40? That is one skeleton for every five skill points (!).

    I spent 10 on Revive, put one in mastery, and there are five prereqs, for a total of 16 skill points spent to get 10 minions. My minions are over 3.1 times cheaper than yours.
    If economy was all that was important, then there would be no skellimancers out there. Personally, I find it more important that I don't have to keep up a steady supply of bodies to sustain my army. Not even just bodies, but strong enough monsters to be worth reviving. Plus it made normal a heck of a lot easier.

    About the points being better spent elsewhere, the only place I would put them is in curses for more range. However, with Insight, it doesn't matter how much I have to recast them, making more points rather unnecessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickcarson
    Yet because of Edge, our minions are roughly the same in effectiveness, in fact, because I have greater numbers, I have a small advantage against large groups (whereas you have the advantage against anything that Edge doesn't effect, eg Gargoyle traps).

    Edge means that quality of minions isn't as important as quantity of minions - and that is something at which Revive beats all the other options hands down.
    Not just Edge; any and all auras will be more effective with more minions. That's why I chose to max both skellies and revives. If SM is maxed anyway, then I might as well max all of its synergies as well. Mages don't bother me. The only places I hate are the scarab lair and the arcane sanctuary, and I can just unsummon them at that point.

    At the end of the build, I'll have 20+ more minions than you, ones that I won't have to worry about or focus on. Half of them will stay out of trouble by themselves, and all of them will be boosted by SM and auras. Most important of all, I'll have the ability to still be effective even against high resistance monsters and ranged attackers.

    I guess I should yield to someone with more experience, and I don't mean to sound combative, I'm just trying to defend my point.




  9. #19
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    Throw away Edge?

    Do I intend to 'throw away' Edge? Or replace it with Bramble?

    No. In fact, if I had a Bramble lined up, my choices would suddenly crystallize and become very clear - I would give both to my Merc, and have the stacked damage reflection on her.

    That then means that (combined with Amp) I'd be getting approx 3000% damage return. Based on the numbers that people were throwing around about Attract in Hell, you'd expect monsters to kill each other with 40-80 hits. Well, if each hit is multiplied by 30x (or more, some of those big numbers were due to phys res) then I'd expect monsters in Hell to die after 2-3 of their own hits.

    ----

    @UncleSporky: if you intend to migrate to other auras from other runewords, then you really should be arguing that you've come up with a better version of the Commandomancer. Have fun with that :howdy:




  10. #20
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    atm my comando is waiting for spirit and insight from ladder, and i need anni and bramble, then use bramble/insight on a might merc, +the spirit of barbs from wisp and amp gives me say 2000% damage returned? (i dunno bout this) i have 16 of each type of skele, allthough i will be soon remaking without mages, so say 16 warriors and 8 mages, 22 revives ( 1 skill point) + golem+merc+spirit+me =50 things in my party, also maxing spear/spirit and using marrow bug. also use corpse explosion alot. I use beast myself, will have base str base dex and base energy, and cta, so lots of life.

    also i think attract could be useful for the pvm type of this build. I personally wont be using it, as im mainly built for pvp.




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