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47. You may not vote on this poll
  • in person

    35 74.47%
  • over the phone

    17 36.17%
  • mail

    3 6.38%
  • email/IM

    5 10.64%
  • through a mutual friend

    3 6.38%
  • other (specify)

    1 2.13%
  • stalking will always remain the ideal choice!

    3 6.38%
  • doesn't matter, i get the boobies anyway

    7 14.89%
  • they all fail anyway, and durf is to blame!

    13 27.66%
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  1. #1
    IncGamers Member llad12's Avatar
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    Should Rumsfeld resign?

    Following the recent release of photos of Iraqi prisoner abuse, Donald Rumsfeld, the Sec. of Defense, has come under considerable pressure. Many Democratic congressman and several major newspapers have called for his resignation.

    An example:

    There was a moment about a year ago, in the days of "Mission Accomplished," when Donald Rumsfeld looked like a brilliant tactician. American troops — the lean, mean fighting machine Mr. Rumsfeld assembled — swept into Baghdad with a speed that surprised even the most optimistic hawks. It was crystal clear that the Defense Department, not State and certainly not the United Nations, would control the start of nation-building. Mr. Rumsfeld, with his steely grin and tell-it-like-it-is press conferences, was the closest thing to a rock star the Bush cabinet would ever see.
    That was then.

    It is time now for Mr. Rumsfeld to go, and not only because he bears personal responsibility for the scandal of Abu Ghraib. That would certainly have been enough. The United States has been humiliated to a point where government officials could not release this year's international human rights report this week for fear of being scoffed at by the rest of the world. The reputation of its brave soldiers has been tarred, and the job of its diplomats made immeasurably harder because members of the American military tortured and humiliated Arab prisoners in ways guaranteed to inflame Muslim hearts everywhere. And this abuse was not an isolated event, as we know now and as Mr. Rumsfeld should have known, given the flood of complaints and reports directed to his office over the last year.

    The world is waiting now for a sign that President Bush understands the seriousness of what has happened. It needs to be more than his repeated statements that he is sorry the rest of the world does not "understand the true nature and heart of America." Mr. Bush should start showing the state of his own heart by demanding the resignation of his secretary of defense.

    This is far from a case of a fine cabinet official undone by the actions of a few obscure bad apples in the military police. Donald Rumsfeld has morphed, over the last two years, from a man of supreme confidence to arrogance, then to almost willful blindness. With the approval of the president, he sent American troops into a place whose nature and dangers he had apparently never bothered to examine.

    We now know that no one with any power in the Defense Department had a clue about what the administration was getting the coalition forces into. Mr. Rumsfeld's blithe confidence that he could run his war on the cheap has also seriously harmed the Army and the National Guard.

    This page has argued that the United States, having toppled Saddam Hussein, has an obligation to do everything it can to usher in a stable Iraqi government. But the country is not obliged to continue struggling through this quagmire with the secretary of defense who took us into the swamp. Mr. Rumsfeld's second in command, Paul Wolfowitz, is certainly not an acceptable replacement because he was one of the prime architects of the invasion strategy. It is long past time for a new team and new thinking at the Department of Defense.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/07/op...print&position=

    The Bush administration leaked to the press that Rumsfeld receive a tongue-lashing from President Bush for not keeping him up to date on this scandal. Bush, however, stated later that Rumsfeld was doing a good job as Sec. of Defense and indicated that he was important member of his cabinet.

    Several Republican congressmen and conservative newspapers have come to Rumsfeld's defense.

    In today's congressional hearing, Rumsfeld apologized to the public for the prisoner abuse and indicated that he accepted full responsibility for this scandal.

    What do you think and why? Should he resign or should he stay? What do you think the consequences of keeping him on the staff or firing him would be to the Middle East, Iraq, and the upcoming presidental election?




  2. #2
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    Oh, aren't you a tricky one, Llad.

    I don't think Rummy should resign, but I think he'll be the sacrificial lamb in this case. That is to say, he's going to take one for the team. I wonder what color his parachute will be? He'll go down in less than 2 weeks. If I'm wrong, I'll eat a sandwich.

    Anyone who served on Gerry Ford's staff has no business being in the U.S. government in the new millenium. And what's the deal with the recycling of old dudes in Republican administrations? I'm cool with recycling, but more of the aluminium can and glass bottle type rather than white dudes.




  3. #3
    IncGamers Member Yaboosh's Avatar
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    If I'm wrong, I'll eat a sandwich.
    I got your word on that one right???? This will remain in my sig for 2 weeks, and upon that time, if you were wrong, you WILL eat a sandwich. You better pick your words better in the future, mac, you got yourself in deep this time.




  4. #4
    IncGamers Member jmervyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maccool
    Oh, aren't you a tricky one, Llad.

    I don't think Rummy should resign, but I think he'll be the sacrificial lamb in this case. That is to say, he's going to take one for the team. I wonder what color his parachute will be? He'll go down in less than 2 weeks. If I'm wrong, I'll eat a sandwich.

    Anyone who served on Gerry Ford's staff has no business being in the U.S. government in the new millenium. And what's the deal with the recycling of old dudes in Republican administrations? I'm cool with recycling, but more of the aluminium can and glass bottle type rather than white dudes.
    Rummy was the darling of the press corpse ( ) when we were winning - this is just DC business as usual. Full of sound & fury, signifying nothing. He also is one of the most forward-looking types we've had as SecDef in some time - a great indicator was how much crap he was taking in attempting to shake up the green-suited bureaucrats before 9/11.

    Looks like they had the last laugh. I notice none of the tinfoil hatters are wondering if this isn't a plot within the Pentagon to discredit the Executive Branch...




  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmervyn
    He also is one of the most forward-looking types we've had as SecDef in some time
    I will totally give him that. I reckon his ideas will be used in the next illegal invasion. OK, sorry. But, I am about most of the Rummy plans; seriously. I reckon that in 30 years we'll be using his ideas.


    Quote Originally Posted by Smeg
    Funny you mention that. The Democrats have been doing much the same thing in the past couple of years. Walter Mondale running for office?
    Well, Smeg, as you don't understand (per usual), Paul Wellstone died in a plane crash. There is a significant difference between selecting a candidate out of tragedy and selecting a candidate because he's been loyal to the party for 20+ years.

    Get real and get a clue. Leave intelligent debate to jmerv; please.


    Edit: Sen. Crapo?! Man, that guy has huge metal cajones! Go Crapo!!!one1!!




  6. #6
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    I think he should stay in office until Bush wins/loses the election.

    Ya I dont think he has done a good job, but it would make other countries think anything he did was wrong if he resigned IMO, which isnt good......

    If Bush is elected again, I think he should get a new guy though.




  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by tydon
    I think he should stay in office until Bush wins/loses the election.
    If we had any sense, we would impeach Bush immediately. No, not for Abu Ghraib, but for the whole thing. With Abu Ghraib, we've lost the last of our excuses for invading a country without provocation. Abu Ghraib is just the straw that broke the camel's back, but Bush has totally destroyed our credibility with the international community. We still haven't entirely recovered from the loss of face we took in Vietnam, and we're going to be a long time living this one down.

    To talk about forcing the resignation of a mere secretary after this fiasco is laughable.

    Ya I dont think he has done a good job, but it would make other countries think anything he did was wrong if he resigned IMO, which isnt good......
    Heaven forbid someone should think we've done something wrong!

    Like break lots of treaties.

    Like heap ridicule on most of our traditional allies.

    Like start an unprovoked war under false pretenses.

    Like giving up the pretense of being an unbiased broker of peace in Israel.

    Like killing thousands of Iraqi civilians... on false pretenses.

    Like refusing to follow Geneva conventions in Gitmo.

    Like rounding up Iraqi civilians at random (as many as 60%) without telling them what they're charged with. Without notifying their relatives. Oh yeah, and torturing them.

    If Bush is elected again, I think he should get a new guy though.
    If Bush is elected again, it doesn't matter what we do.




  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tydon
    I think he should stay in office until Bush wins/loses the election.

    Ya I dont think he has done a good job, but it would make other countries think anything he did was wrong if he resigned IMO, which isnt good......

    If Bush is elected again, I think he should get a new guy though.
    agree 100% :drink:




  9. #9
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    You're dreaming if you think he'll resign. The only thing it'd do is give the Democrats a victory. And you know that's not going to happen, not with the upcoming election.

    Plus, he's not the one that caused this. From what I've been seeing reported by both sides, this is the work of the CIA. They're the ones that were instrumental in instigating the torture. Instead of Sec. Rumsfeld, the director of the CIA (Christians In Action :lol needs to be the one on the hot seat.

    Quote Originally Posted by maccool
    And what's the deal with the recycling of old dudes in Republican administrations?
    Funny you mention that. The Democrats have been doing much the same thing in the past couple of years. Walter Mondale running for office? Sen. "Uncle Keg" Kennedy leading the charge?
    Both sides need to put out fresh new faces. I kinda like Sen. Crapo of Idaho. Relatively new guy with a goofy name, it's perfect!




  10. #10
    IncGamers Member Yaboosh's Avatar
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    Sen. Crapo of Idaho
    Leno, Conan and crew are probably salivating watching his career, hoping for him to jump more into the public eye.




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