Berserker Rage Barb (max fury)

[DexA]

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#abSURP!XWh!aZZYac (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#abSURP%21XWh%21aZZYac)

I think "leaving out" fury spenders is a very interesting build direction overall which gains its viability from the Berserker Rage Passive
(+25% damage while at max fury). This leaves us with only 3 possible primary damage dealing skills: Bash, Cleave and Frenzy and the 2 situational skills Overpower and Revenge which cost no fury to use.
I've chosen to go with BOTH bash and cleave since bash generates more fury than frenzy and cleave is for aoe damage.

Why do i want to generate fury if i dont want to spend any and stay at max (most of the time)?

Well, I found a nice synergy with a rune for Wrath of the Berserker which prolongs its effect by 1 second for 25 fury gained.
Giving me the most efficient (fury/damage) buff for my damage output and mobility since i dont want to spend (much) fury. The thing is, we dont know if hitting enemies while at full fury actually generates fury which is counted by WotB for the duration increase. So if fury generation is not counted "backstage" you can throw this build away.

Granted it works the way i hope it to, one really can maximize each usage of WotB, maybe even keep it up until the end of the fight.

The gameplay would mostly be just chopping down everything with your 2 swords (again more fury) in Sayan-mode with Bash or Cleave, sometimes hitting revenge and overpower for heals and more fury.

I took War Cry for that 60 fury boost after using WotB (50 fury) to get to max fury instantly again, also its an armor boost for the whole party.


Please tell me what you think or would change.

[Such Violent Storms]

Is it just me or does that build link go to something kinda different and with no rune effects?

[Karpalo]

For maxium damage output you want both Frenzy and Bash. Frenzy would be the primary attack with the attack speed bonus, and you would fill the rotation with revenge and bash for 18% damage modifier and 10% crit chance bonus.

For a choice of weapons optimal would probably be dualwield daggers with high flat damage affixes. With full stacks on everything you would have 108% damage modifier (assuming it's additive, perhaps more if it isn't) 18 to 28% extra crit depending if you went with both overpower and revenge, 50% bonus critical damage from ruthlessness and 15% AS from dw + 75% extra attack speed from full frenzy stacks. You could slap runed WotB on the top of that for extra 10% crit chance, 25% attack speed and massive 100% damage modifier.

That is without items at all. As far as i know that's highest single target dps build in the game, but definite con is that it takes 9 separate actions to build the base stacks from frenzy, bash and revenge. It would take only couple of seconds, but as soon you stop attacking you will lose the stacks in fairly short time window.

[Kingu]

Frenzy bonus Ias works only with that skill, and the faster weapons are relatively less frenzy bonus gives.

[Sooru]

There are already few threads about builds like this. One for perpetual Wrath of the Berserker (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?824581-Perpetual-Wrath-of-the-Berserker) and one for max fury with B. Rage and Brawler. (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?824356-Build-centred-around-B-Rage-Brawler-stacking-Permanent-55-damage)

Those discussions contain lots of good math and info about skill selection, you'll probably find something useful. Combining them is something I haven't considered since the build(s) would lose a lot of flexibility that way I'm afraid. If you fix the link to your build we can see what you've been thinking.

[Karpalo]

Frenzy bonus Ias works only with that skill, and the faster weapons are relatively less frenzy bonus gives.

Explain.

Is there a hardcap or softcap and DR's for attack speed?

[HardRock]

The attack speed bonus of Frenzy is additive. This means that when your APS is 1, then Frenzy is indeed a 75% increase, since 1 + 0.75 = 1.75. However, if you dual-wield two weapons with 1 APS your APS becomes 1.15 and 1.9 with Frenzy. 1.9 APS compared to 1.15 is only about a 65.2% increase. Things get worse with even faster weapons.

This means that if you want to use Frenzy's attack speed bonus to its full extent, you should find the slowest weapon with the highest DPS, which will most likely mean a two-handed mace, since their base APS is only 0.9. Frenzy will boost that by 83.3%.

[Karpalo]

The attack speed bonus of Frenzy is additive. This means that when your APS is 1, then Frenzy is indeed a 75% increase, since 1 + 0.75 = 1.75. However, if you dual-wield two weapons with 1 APS your APS becomes 1.15 and 1.9 with Frenzy. 1.9 APS compared to 1.15 is only about a 65.2% increase. Things get worse with even faster weapons.

This means that if you want to use Frenzy's attack to its full extent, you should find the slowest weapon with the highest DPS, which will most likely mean a two-handed mace, since their base APS is only 0.9. Frenzy will boost that by 83.3%.


that's linear scaling. If it's additive every extra % gives same damage value as the previous one.

If you mean that instead of increasing attack speed frenzy stacks give fixed attack rate bonus (like 0.15 attacks per second per stack) then it's another story.

For example with very round numbers: 100 attack damage 1 attack per second = 100 damage per second.

With 100% AS 200 damage per second
With 200% AS 300 damage per second
With 300% AS 400 damage per second

Effect doesn't diminish even if it might seem like it in relative comparison.

[HardRock]

This is how Frenzy works:

1 APS 100 damage = 100 DPS, 175 DPS with Frenzy, 75% bonus
2 APS 100 damage = 200 DPS, 275 DPS with Frenzy, 37.5% bonus
3 APS 100 damage = 300 DPS, 375 DPS with Frenzy, 25% bonus

Based on Frenzy's tooltip, which states that it increases attack speed by 75%, many people, including me, expected to always see a 75% bonus to DPS when using Frenzy. The tooltip should say 0.75 more APS.

[Superstate]

@ HardRock my friend,

That the IAS is additive only means that as you add more IAS, the value of Frenzy IAS becomes less and less. It isn't a straight APS gain per se, as such the base weapon speed does not matter. The reason why 2 handers / 1hand + shield generally can use Frenzy to a better extent is because they don't have a base bonus to stack Frenzy on, whereas dual-wield does. Because dual-wield already have a 15% IAS bonus base, and all IAS buffs appears to be additive, the IAS when using Frenzy doesn't go from 0-75% (which is a 75% increase), it goes from 15 to 90 percent. If using a 1,4 speed it would look like this;

1,4 aps + DW

1,4 * 1,15 = 1,61 APS non-frenzied
1,4 * 1,9 = 2,66 APS frenzied

Now, what do we need to multiply the 1,61 aps with in order to reach the 2,66 APS?

2,66 / 1,61 = ~1,652

1,14 * 1,15 * 1,652 = ~ 2,66

For 15% gear non-weapon IAS, or using DW with zero IAS, Frenzy is only a ~65,2% IAS increase.



Let's use a more extreme example, 900% IAS with a 1,4 aps weapon.

1,4 * 10,15 = 14,2 APS non-frenzied
1,4 * 10,9 = 15,3 APS frenzied

15,3 / 14,2 = ~1,074

1,4 * 10,15 * 1,074 = ~15,3

Frenzy IAS increase is around 7,4% IAS.


This is where we see why Frenzy gets worse as you add more IAS, since it is additive the value of the Frenzy IAS is diminished per point of non-weapon IAS you add.




Edit: I figured I might add the zero IAS scenario as well.

1,4 * 1 = 1,4 APS non-frenzied
1,4 * 1,75 = 2,45 APS frenzied

2,45 / 1,4 = 1,75

1,4 * 1 * 1,75 = 2,45

IE, at zero IAS, Frenzy is indeed a 75% increase, and all is well on Earth.

[HardRock]

Oh, OK, I thought that it was additive with the base weapons APS.

[Karpalo]

@ HardRock my friend,

That the IAS is additive only means that as you add more IAS, the value of Frenzy IAS becomes less and less. It isn't a straight APS gain per se, as such the base weapon speed does not matter. The reason why 2 handers / 1hand + shield generally can use Frenzy to a better extent is because they don't have a base bonus to stack Frenzy on, whereas dual-wield does. Because dual-wield already have a 15% IAS bonus base, and all IAS buffs appears to be additive, the IAS when using Frenzy doesn't go from 0-75% (which is a 75% increase), it goes from 15 to 90 percent. If using a 1,4 speed it would look like this;

1,4 aps + DW

1,4 * 1,15 = 1,61 APS non-frenzied
1,4 * 1,9 = 2,66 APS frenzied

Now, what do we need to multiply the 1,61 aps with in order to reach the 2,66 APS?

2,66 / 1,61 = ~1,652

1,14 * 1,15 * 1,652 = ~ 2,66

For 15% gear non-weapon IAS, or using DW with zero IAS, Frenzy is only a ~65,2% IAS increase.


Why do you feel that is important? That's actually absolutely irrelevant. Thing to note is that AS can never be infinite and neither can damage.

As a concept: You have 100 damage, you equip ring with 100 damage and your damage is doubled, you equip another 100 damage and now you do only 1.5 times the damage. If the relative effect wouldn't diminish we would be looking at exponentially growing curve. As a absolute in both this ring example and with IAS scaling is linear. Same damage return for every point invested.

[HardRock]

It's relevant, because this is not obvious from Frenzy's tooltip.

[Superstate]

Why do you feel that is important? That's actually absolutely irrelevant. Thing to note is that AS can never be infinite and neither can damage.

The post was pointed at HardRock who took additive IAS slightly too literal. Not sure why you're firing up over it, is it that I only showed the relative gains, which is actually irrelevant in this specific case? I think it is. :scratchchin:

The ultimate goal was to, once again, show how a non-multiplicative IAS stacks.




As a concept:

Almost all buffs are additive with themselves (and multiplied with eachother). This holds true for very many mechanics in every RPG I know of. The interesting thing about them aren't the relative gains, it's determining which of these "stacked mountains" of IAS, Strength, Crit and so on yields to the highest increase of damage if you were to choose one to "stack further".


This is more of a general philosophy of theorycrafting than anything else.

[Karpalo]

Exactly. But we concur that it's irrelevant whenever you use DW or 2-hander with Frenzy. Both get same effect from the skill. Then it's just down to items in the end.

[Superstate]

Exactly. But we concur that it's irrelevant whenever you use DW or 2-hander with Frenzy. Both get same effect from the skill. Then it's just down to items in the end.

It's irrelevant as long as there are no outside variables and we're only looking at this specific instance of damage output, yes.

They both get the same effect from the skill (75 additive IAS), but it is still possible that you find yourself in a situation where Bash is a better choice for dual-wielding, and Frenzy the better choice for 2handers. This is depending on variables such as fury generation and straight damage dealing from the primary generation when not including synergies such as increased numbers of spenders, once again due to said breakpoints where Bash starts to deal more %dmg/sec. As for the fury, the breakpoint where Bash starts to yield more fury is a negative IAS, so that one's not really plausible when speaking about native fury generation on the skills, but I digress..


For a complete modeling, no, it isn't irrelevant whether you're using non-dw or DW for Frenzy (when comparing it to other abilities such as Bash).