EP = Suck

[Chaboi]

With the new change, this skill now sucks

[yovargas]

You mean the skill that you've never seen and have almost no info on? Hmmm.....

I think the change is absolutely fantastic and is exactly what the Monk needed.

[Threepwood]

Seems fine to me. There's not much point to having a combo series where the first two attacks are just single-target 100% WD with no special properties. Though they could have fixed that by giving the first two hits some special properties. I'm hoping they'll just make the new spender version appropriately impressive.

[Leonhart]

Actually I use this EP skill very little. Because with it you can only hit one target per hit. And it deals no competitive damage. It will never have a position in my hot key socket.

[Buu]

Actually I use this EP skill very little. Because with it you can only hit one target per hit. And it deals no competitive damage. It will never have a position in my hot key socket.

Agreed. It was in patch 12. I generally used crippling wave for the first 2 attacks, then EP for the final if i didn't finish the crippling combo.

[Chaboi]

You mean the skill that you've never seen and have almost no info on? Hmmm.....

I think the change is absolutely fantastic and is exactly what the Monk needed.

The skill has been in the beta build for months... You used to be able to spam the third attack as a part of a rotation..bosses could have a dot on them constantly using CW,CW, EP then CW, CW, CW then CW, CW, EP. 100% dot uptime was fantastic, it could be Runed to hit up to 5 targets and dealt % of HP. It was the greatest skill we had.

Inferno level monsters may have 25k HP..30% is 8333 extra damage as an AOE..free.


Not anymore, you don't realize how bad we've been nerfed.

[HardRock]

Look at the bright side: the skill got an overall buff in damage.

[Buu]

The skill has been in the beta build for months... You used to be able to spam the third attack as a part of a rotation..bosses could have a dot on them constantly using CW,CW, EP then CW, CW, CW then CW, CW, EP. 100% dot uptime was fantastic, it could be Runed to hit up to 5 targets and dealt % of HP. It was the greatest skill we had.

Inferno level monsters may have 25k HP..30% is 8333 extra damage as an AOE..free.


Not anymore, you don't realize how bad we've been nerfed.

I'm guessing it's still got the exploding aspect. And did it really matter what the DoT is until the killing blow? (Sweeping wind has a DoT effect. AND it's stackable). I tend to think not.

Spam SW for your DoT, EP when target is low.

[velunder]

The spirit cost on the new version seems high. Between dashing strike and it I have trouble keeping spirit up.

[yovargas]

The skill has been in the beta build for months...

Has the completely redesigned skill been in the beta build for months??

[Buu]

Has the completely redesigned skill been in the beta build for months??

If you include the internal build. :jig:

[Chaboi]

Has the completely redesigned skill been in the beta build for months??

In the internal build yes. I'm more than happy to field any additional elementary questions you may have, except PM me, I'd rather save the space here for discussion.

[bighandxyz]

anybody knows how fast the new sweeping wave's proc dmg? Is it every second?

[Chimera]

I do agree that the skill has taken an extreme nerf. In patch 13 the third strike it 150% weapon damage over 3 secs and exploded for 30%(monster health). The current settings is 220% over 3 secs, exploding for 30% (monster health), and cost 40 spirit.

Prior to this I could do the third strike and follow up with a lashing tail strike(25 spirit I believe +kick damage> 220% over 3 secs) to get the explosion. Now with the spirit cost I feel the skill is almost useless (except maybe in inferno due to monster health). If they feel the 30% explosion was to good I would rather see a reduction of damage than it become a rather boring spirit spender.

[bighandxyz]

I do agree that the skill has taken an extreme nerf. In patch 13 the third strike it 150% weapon damage over 3 secs and exploded for 30%(monster health). The current settings is 220% over 3 secs, exploding for 30% (monster health), and cost 40 spirit.

Prior to this I could do the third strike and follow up with a lashing tail strike(25 spirit I believe +kick damage> 220% over 3 secs) to get the explosion. Now with the spirit cost I feel the skill is almost useless (except maybe in inferno due to monster health). If they feel the 30% explosion was to good I would rather see a reduction of damage than it become a rather boring spirit spender.

but you're comparing two different things. The first two exploding palm strike is practically worthless.

Total dmg is 3exp dmg + lashing tail, vs 3 <insert strike> + exploding palm.

I can almost assure you it'll be better than lashing tail kicks, not that it was hard in the first place. LtK is a terrible spell for its costs

[DragNdrop]

but you're comparing two different things. The first two exploding palm strike is practically worthless.

Total dmg is 3exp dmg + lashing tail, vs 3 <insert strike> + exploding palm.

I can almost assure you it'll be better than lashing tail kicks, not that it was hard in the first place. LtK is a terrible spell for its costs


LtK is actually one of the more efficient spirit/damage moves the monk has... that being said, EP is still going to be just as useful to a build that was using it as a generator beforehand... case in point... taking the rune that adds 5 spirit to every enemy hit by explosion... enemies grouped together of at a least 8 or more and you break even... above that and you GAIN spirit. Its not "free" anymore, but despite loving this skill... it feels like it would be more balanced. large DOT plus scaling AOE skill for free... seems like your getting too much for nothing.

[Chaboi]

Yea but it also requires you to have 40 spirit available to begin with...with how hard inferno is slated to be that spirit will be reserved for defensive skills and heals.

You also aren't taking into consideration that there is no explosion if the targets affected do not die...you can very easily waste almost 1/3 of your spirit globe for 73% weapon damage for 3 seconds.

Just realize it, the skill sucks.

[yovargas]

Yea but it also requires you to have 40 spirit available to begin with...with how hard inferno is slated to be that spirit will be reserved for defensive skills and heals.

An absurd statement. That's like saying all offensive spenders are useless.


...you can very easily waste almost 1/3 of your spirit globe for 73% weapon damage for 3 seconds.

Correction - 220% 3 seconds. More with runes. Not bad at all.

[WhiteGiant]

I think EP feels like a lackluster right now ;

first of all think that "Damage over time" and "the effect only triggers if you kill the target over that duration" are inherently contradictive for a Spirit Spending skill

that is as if "rend" victims would recover 60% of the dmg dealt by rend at the end of its duration.


the 30% dmg based on hp is ofc still unique and desireable ; though i still think that the skill is inherently flawed

for several reasons ; first off all ; i dont think that dot effects are effective enough ; in general. EP is one of them.


the skill gives you 220% dmg over 3 sec to a single target, no dot stacking allowed. 40 sprit
; whereas ltk would give 200% dmg instantly (thus no stacking problem to begin with) AE for 30 spirit
that being said ; i think EP needs buffs or changes.


first suggestion :

get rid of the dot effect alltogether and reduce the spirit cost in return. maybe even increase the duration. something like
30 spirit ; target explodes upon death for 40% of its health ; lasts 5 secs.

second suggestion :

40 spirit ; deals 300% wp dmg over 5 seconds ; the dmg however decreases for every dot tick ;
eg. 5 secs á 1 ticks
1. tick 100% dmg
2. tick 80% dmg
3. tick 60% dmg
4. tick 40% dmg
5. tick 20% dmg
+ the 30% hp based dmg upon death ofc.
this obviously is also a buff ; though as i said before i think dots are too weak anyway and deserve a buff.

third suggestion :
40 spririt ; 100% wp dmg over 5 sec ; for Every percent of Health Missing on the Enemy the dmg of the dot effect is increased by 5% wpn dmg/sec.
+ 30% hp dmg based on monster hp upon death.

such a change would truly establish the skill as a "FINISH HIM" move ; as it would deal considerably more dmg to wounded targets than it would to fresh ones.


fourth suggestion :

40 spirit ; 300% wp dmg over 5 sec + 30% hp based dmg upon death;
you'll recover ~6 spirit for every second remaining dot time on the target.





Runestone Suggestion :P ; we all know "Pai Mei's Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique"
this runestone effect is inspired by it :P

40 spirit ; 240% dmg over 3 sec ; target explodes for 30% of its maximum hp
The duration of this dot skill is increased by 1 Second for every 5 yards walked up to a cap of 3 secs.
so if the target keeps running from you the dot could last forever ; unless he stays still for 3 secs.



; well these are my 2 cents to the topic EP ; as i said before ; i think all dot effects are currently too weak ; considering that you cannot stack them ; and as far as i know they can not proc crits either ( maybe iam wrong on this ; though if someone knows for certain please tell me )

[yovargas]

I disagree entirely. The point of the skill right now is: kill 'em in 3 secs and get a big boom. If that boom is big enough, it's absolutely worth it even without the 220% dmg. I feel like the 220% dmg is just there to make it (much!) easier to get the boom but getting the boom is still the point. I think this one is awesome as is (assuming that final blast is good 'n big!).

[ElementEight]

30% of a foe's health is definitely a lot; the whole point of the skill, I'd say, isn't the 240%/3, but rather, the on-death effect.

[yovargas]

30% of a foe's health is definitely a lot.

Definitely; my main concern is that for 40 spirit I want the AoE of the blast to be pretty darn good. I don't think we know the radius since the change, do we?

[WhiteGiant]

well i bet there will be diminishing returns for multiplayer games anyway ; that being said i think a buff for the dot effect is worth a consideration ; thats for all dot effects imo.

to the diminishing returns ; i think the dmg will only scale based upon the base hp ; not the bonus hp which is granted if multiple player are in one game ;

if someone could test that ; that would be great :p i only have the beta available on a "burrowing" basis

[Chaboi]

An absurd statement. That's like saying all offensive spenders are useless.



Correction - 220% 3 seconds. More with runes. Not bad at all.

Whats 220/3? You aren't reading the tooltip correctly. It's 73% weapon dmg per second

[HardRock]

i think the dmg will only scale based upon the base hp ; not the bonus hp which is granted if multiple player are in one game ;

Confirmed, the extra HP granted to monsters in multiplayer doesn't make Exploding Palm more powerful. This pretty much makes it a singleplayer only skill.

[WhiteGiant]

thanks for testing ; that turns EP from one of my favourite spirit generator (except that stage 1 and 2 of the skill were pointless and lazy designed) to one of my least favourite Spirit spender :)

i mean just do the math ; afaik the hp increases by 75% per player ; thats 325% hp. for a 4 player game.

so if a skeleton has 100 hp it would have 325 hp with 4 player;
that decreases the relative dmg from 30% to 9.2%

to meet these requirements you need
*40 spirit
*a good Monster pack ( i doubt that the base range is greater than ~12 yards (which is not much in diablo 3 terms)
*you need melee range ; so you cant just apply the buff to the sweetspots of a monsterpack ;
*you need to kill the monster in a timewindow of 3 sec ; if you dont manage that the spirit goes to waste.




to me that sounds like alot of effort for very little reward; and i think that damage oriented monks are better off with pretty much any other offensive spirit spender out there;

if you are more a support monk / tank monk with gear according to these roles ( eg alot of def stats / dual wield / dodge and healskills )
you might be better of with EP ; but i dont think its worth it other wise ; its just contradictive to how every other dmg and ae skill works.

[Chaboi]

to meet these requirements you need
*40 spirit
*a good Monster pack ( i doubt that the base range is greater than ~12 yards (which is not much in diablo 3 terms)
*you need melee range ; so you cant just apply the buff to the sweetspots of a monsterpack ;
*you need to kill the monster in a timewindow of 3 sec ; if you dont manage that the spirit goes to waste.




to me that sounds like alot of effort for very little rward; and i think that damage oriented monks are better off with pretty much any other offensive spirit spender out there;

if you are more a support monk / tank monk with gear according to these roles ( eg alot of def stats / dual wield / dodge and healskills )
you might be better of with EP ; but i dont think its worth it other wise ; its just contradictive how every other dmg and ae skill works.

Thank you. Finally an echoing voice of reason

[Kintara]

Confirmed, the extra HP granted to monsters in multiplayer doesn't make Exploding Palm more powerful. This pretty much makes it a singleplayer only skill.
Does it? What other damage skill would scale with multiplayer monster HP?

[HardRock]

None, but when the whole point of a skill is that it does damage based on monster HP this is a big problem. A zombie in the Weeping Hollows has on average 44 HP in a 4 player game and your EP will explode for 3-4 damage, which will cost you 40 Spirit. Basically, EP almost becomes becomes a single target Rend with a higher cost in multiplayer.

[Kintara]

None, but when the whole point of a skill is that it does damage based on monster HP this is a big problem.I don't get it. The damage is the same in single and multiplayer. In multiplayer, you have friends to help you kill the monsters in under three seconds. They explode, and deal the same damage they normally would. Any problem would either reflect in the raw damage or not. "The whole point" is that they explode and deal damage based on their life, so the RELATIVE life values of the monsters should be what's relevant (in other words, monsters who would have bigger totals to start with, like champions, rather than simply because it's multiplayer). If Monks got the only skill in the game that got better like that with more players, then they would rule the realm.

[yovargas]

Anybody around for the early days off D2's Corpse Explosion knows that the dmg can't scale with players without causing massive balance problems.


to me that sounds like alot of effort for very little reward

The reward is potentially one of the highest damaging skills in the game as an AoE blast. That's not good enough?

[WhiteGiant]

lets recap how all other AE skills work ;

first of all ; pretty much all other ae skills are ranged; because the radius of an ae skill is already part of its range.
but thats not the case for EP , and i think that is unique to this skill aswell.

your logic is right EP; should be a great skill if you apply it to a champion with alot of HP. and than focus it to death.

but you still have to meet the requirements:
first of all you need to be able apply EP as it is not a ranged skill.
second you need to focus it to trigger it at all. and to make sense of the AE dmg at all.

but what do you think is more likely. that your 3 allies all try to focus your EP'd Champion so that you can get off your stupid combo.
or that they spam Arcane Orb, Seismic Slam and Firebats into the huge pack. as every reasonable player would do ? because that is a natural effective and smart way to play ?

dont you see that this skill is contradictive in itself leave a lone in combination with other skills ? i mean even if you completely disregard that its dmg is based on the monster hp and not on your weapon dmg it makes no sense whatsoever.

here are great examples of how skills with these mechanics could work :

DH: Trap;
Plant a bomb on an enemy rather than on the ground. If the target dies within 60 seconds, the bomb explodes dealing 404% weapon damage to all enemies within 8 yards.
(ranged skill. 60 seconds to get the combo off , generates hartred )

DH: Marked for Death; Grim Reaper : only 6 hartred cost ... ( pretty much spammable )
An additional 12% of damage done to the target is also divided among all enemies within 20 yards.
ranged skill ; great radius 20 yards is pretty huge.

DH: Bola Shot
Augment the bola to deal 182% weapon damage as Arcane to the target and 154% weapon damage as Arcane to all other targets within 7 yards, but increases the explosion delay to 2 seconds.
( hartred generator ; so no drawback even if it does die in the 2 sec window )


lets see the flowchart for EP

can you use that skill (ressource) do you have 40 spirit ? yes ->
is there an enemy nearby that has alot of HP ? -> yes
does he have small mobs around him that make it worth pulling of that combo ? -> yes
did you manage to kill him in those 3 secs -> yes
are the smaller mobs still around or have they scattered / been killed by teammates ? -> yes

even if their is only one no in that flowchart you already wasted spirit...


whereas all other classes with ae skills only have to ask themself.
can you use that skill (ressource)
is the constellation of positions good ?




Edit:


The reward is potentially one of the highest damaging skills in the game as an AoE blast. That's not good enough?.

that remains to be seen ; first of all you need to meet the requirements. to even trigger the blast. (and the radius isnt that impressive either)

second we dont know about the Inferno Character Dmg to Monster HP Ratio.

as it is now ; even while dual wielding untwinked my dmg per hit is greater than 30% of a Monsters HP. and with attacks like Lashing tail kicks i can even match dmg equal to 30% hp of champions and unburried.

[snurrfint]

You guys don't get it.

1. Find the monster with the highest heath in the group. Typically an unburied or a unique monster.
2. Dash in and use Blinding flash/serenity for protection.
3. Use a combo move of your choice to generate spirit and to get his heath down to 50% or something.
4. Use EP and keep hitting him.
5. Watch everything die.

To use it on a zombie in Weeping hollows like Hard Rock suggested is pretty... I don't know.. stupid, no fence HardRock.


None, but when the whole point of a skill is that it does damage based on monster HP this is a big problem. A zombie in the Weeping Hollows has on average 44 HP in a 4 player game and your EP will explode for 3-4 damage, which will cost you 40 Spirit. Basically, EP almost becomes becomes a single target Rend with a higher cost in multiplayer.

[HardRock]

None taken. You're right of course, it shouldn't be used against the cannon fodder type enemies.

As others said, I didn't consider what would it mean for balance, if EP would actually scale with enemy HP in multi-player games. I guess, more than anything else, I find it's 30% HP based damage too low, especially coupled with its short range. It was the second most exciting skill to me when the Monk was unveiled and I'm somewhat disappointed with its current implementation.

[DragNdrop]

If its true that the 30% monster hp doesn't scale in multiplayer, then I have overestimated this skills usefullness. It still has potential for more dmg than some other spenders, but during discussion I have seen the flaws pointed at.

[ElementEight]

so if a skeleton has 100 hp it would have 325 hp with 4 player;
that decreases the relative dmg from 30% to 9.2%


But you're still dealing the same amount of damage.

[Chaboi]

But you're still dealing the same amount of damage.

Let me break this down.


60 years ago having a 20,000 a year salary was middle class, you could buy a lot of stuff. That salary today puts you at the poverty line, you aren't able to buy much. It's called inflation, your "same damage" doesn't carry much weight in multiplayer games because your "salary" isn't scaling with the increased costs.

[Chaboi]

If it was still free to use it would be a viable skill.

[HardRock]

While relatively speaking your damage is lower in multiplayer, there are other players with you as well. EP is just as effective as in solo if you play as a party. Only if you split from your group does it become weaker, but that's true for every other skill, so really, it's your character as a whole that becomes weaker in that case.

[ElementEight]

Let me break this down.


60 years ago having a 20,000 a year salary was middle class, you could buy a lot of stuff. That salary today puts you at the poverty line, you aren't able to buy much. It's called inflation, your "same damage" doesn't carry much weight in multiplayer games because your "salary" isn't scaling with the increased costs.

Poor demonstration since everybody else's damage (or salary) will also be relatively lower. As if everybody went back 60 years as well.

100 damage out of a 100 HP foe, in solo play, is 100%. 100%/1 player ='s 100% still. You represent 100% of the damage, which makes sense since you're alone.

100 damage out of a 400 HP foe, in party play, is 25%. 100%/4 players ='s 25%. You are still pulling your weight, even though your relative damage (25% versus 100%) has gone down.

The point is that the 30% you were doing in single player (which is a real number, such as 100 damage again) remains that 100 damage in multiplayer. Just as my Wizard's Arcane Orb keeps dealing 50 damage per hit, from single to multiplayer. The relativity is a symptom of all skills, EP is no exception.

[HardRock]

Your analogy is correct Element, but your numbers are somewhat off, since if an enemy has 100 in solo, then it has 325 against a 4 player party. That means that in that case 1 player could do nothing and the others could still progress almost as fast as a solo player would if they stay together.

[ElementEight]

Your analogy is correct Element, but your numbers are somewhat off, since if an enemy has 100 in solo, then it has 325 against a 4 player party. That means that in that case 1 player could do nothing and the others could still progress almost as fast as a solo player would if they stay together.

I didn't know the exact scalling. I'm taking they're making it not 100% more per player because you'll never have the coordination of one player as 4 (hence the few lost %'s there). Which would make the game unfair, I suppose? Kinda bull****ty, since party-wide buffs will even that one out. Bah.

[HardRock]

Yeah, that's the most likely reason. This way party play is always preferred when efficiency is a concern, even if you don't think about the fact that more players are able to break more barrels and stuff in a given time and their ability to split up and look for the stairs to the next level faster. The latter may not be a viable option in the higher difficulties though.

[Chaboi]

Poor demonstration since everybody else's damage (or salary) will also be relatively lower. As if everybody went back 60 years as well.

100 damage out of a 100 HP foe, in solo play, is 100%. 100%/1 player ='s 100% still. You represent 100% of the damage, which makes sense since you're alone.

100 damage out of a 400 HP foe, in party play, is 25%. 100%/4 players ='s 25%. You are still pulling your weight, even though your relative damage (25% versus 100%) has gone down.

The point is that the 30% you were doing in single player (which is a real number, such as 100 damage again) remains that 100 damage in multiplayer. Just as my Wizard's Arcane Orb keeps dealing 50 damage per hit, from single to multiplayer. The relativity is a symptom of all skills, EP is no exception.

A 100 HP foe dies in SP = 30 dmg aoe


100 HP foe w/ 4 players = 325 HP

30/325 = 9.2%

My example is not poor, yours is. Math does not lie.

As far as other peoples salaries or dmg, the conversion of dmg in SP to MP for weapon dmg based skills is 1 to 1. With this skill not scaling with monster HP it does not have the same 1 to 1 conversion, so it's resource cost to damage output actually devalues as more players join the game. It sucks.

[HardRock]

30 / 325 = ~9.2%

If you do 30 damage with any skill against enemies with 100 HP in solo, then you reduce their HP by 30%. Against the same enemies in a 4 player party you would only reduce their HP by 9.2%. Again, with any skill. EP is not an exception in any way.

If a weapon damage based skill deals 100 damage in solo, then it will still deal the same amount in a party. If EP does 100 damage when an enemy explodes in solo, then it will still do the same amount in a party. There's no discrepancy here. Every skill's damage becomes less important by itself in multiplayer.

[Chaboi]

30 / 325 = ~9.2%

If you do 30 damage with any skill against enemies with 100 HP in solo, then you reduce their HP by 30%. Against the same enemies in a 4 player party you would only reduce their HP by 9.2%. Again, with any skill. EP is not an exception in any way.

If a weapon damage based skill deals 100 damage in solo, then it will still deal the same amount in a party. If EP does 100 damage when an enemy explodes in solo, then it will still do the same amount in a party. There's no discrepancy here. Every skill's damage becomes less important by itself in multiplayer.
The discrepancy is in the value derived from the 40 spirit cost. In single player your 40 spirit grants you a 30% of monster HP in damage. In a full game that same 40 spirit does not grant you the SAME 30% of monster HP in damage. How is that a good value?

Thats like getting 30 candy bars for 100 bucks because you are the only person in the store. Then, as you go to pay the money 3 people walk in and that 100 bucks now only gets you 9 candy bars...seem like a good deal? I don't think so Tim.

[ElementEight]

A 100 HP foe dies in SP = 30 dmg aoe


100 HP foe w/ 4 players = 325 HP

30/325 = 9.2%

My example is not poor, yours is. Math does not lie.


Math isn't the problem... your comprehension of the issue is.

Look, Arcane Orb goes down as well in mutiplayer games!

A 100 HP foe takes 30 damage. That's 30% of its health.

A 325 HP foe takes 30 damage from the same Arcane Orb. That's 9%. See what I mean? Same amount of damage is dealt; it just feels like it's less. Just like EP.

[Chaboi]

Math isn't the problem... your comprehension of the issue is.

Look, Arcane Orb goes down as well in mutiplayer games!

A 100 HP foe takes 30 damage. That's 30% of its health.

A 325 HP foe takes 30 damage from the same Arcane Orb. That's 9%. See what I mean? Same amount of damage is dealt; it just feels like it's less. Just like EP.

Yes, but other variables contribute to Arcane Orb's (and all other skills for that matter) output of damage. The second that wizard picks up a better weapon that 30 damage now becomes multiplicatively higher. The inherent issue with EP is that no matter what you do, the damage will remain the same, regardless of the gear you have. The issue I have with this, is that as monsters and your gear scales, the return on investment of 40 spirit does not scale at the same time. The value of spending 40 spirit when playing solo is not the same as spending 40 spirit in a multiplayer game.

If you are that wizard, you know that regardless of how many players you have in the game you are doing 175% weapon damage for the cost of 35 arcane power. As a monk you know that, when alone you get 30% of monster HP as damage for a cost of 40 spirit; with 4 players you now only get 9.2% damage for 40 spirit. Do YOU see? I can't make this any simpler.

[HardRock]

The inherent issue with EP is that no matter what you do, the damage will remain the same, regardless of the gear you have.

I know we're talking primarily about the "monster goes boom" part of it, but the DoT scales with gear of course, which, to be fair, also helps with triggering the explosion, so better gear does help a little.


The issue I have with this, is that as monsters and your gear scales, the return on investment of 40 spirit does not scale at the same time.

This is the part that mislead me when I didn't really think it through. Just because a skill does damage based on monster HP doesn't mean, that when that HP scales in multiplayer the damage should as well, which is really counter-intuitive when your first hear it.

Think about it. The game is set up in a way, that in a party players should work together, to be able to kill as fast or faster than solo player. If a solo player kills all skeletons around an Unburied with one EP, then in a party of 4 monks that should mean, that they all should have to use EP on the same target to achieve the same effect. This is exactly how it works at the moment. EP's explosion shouldn't scale with more players to preserve balance between it and the other skills.


The value of spending 40 spirit when playing solo is not the same as spending 40 spirit in a multiplayer game.

Again, relatively speaking, that's true for any damaging skill.

[WhiteGiant]

i think the scaling in multiplayer games is fair ; i just think that the core skill is too weak in general.

i guess a build like this

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#WVXfjQ!fZU!ZYZccc (http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#WVXfjQ%21fZU%21ZYZccc)

because with dual wielding and only defensive synergies ( albeit strong defensive synergies ) he cant expect much dmg from a skill like LTK or wave of light anyway. so if you'd really be able to pull off that stupid combo you'll deal as much dmg as you are likely to ever do with those skills.

that does not change that it became hard to pull off ; very expensive and not very fun.

I'd rather they kept exploding palm as a spirit generator and let it scale off Wpn dmg than this current bs


EDit http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#WVXfjk!fZU!ZYZccZ (http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#WVXfjk%21fZU%21ZYZccZ)
this build should be better ; now that i've come to think of it.
55% dmg reduction to enemies
20% attackspeed reduction to enemies
12% additional dmg dealt to enemies
10% more HP% for allies
16% more DMG for allies
plenty groupheal

I'd also wager that the percentage based dmg increases of guiding light and conviction aura directly add to the palm of explosion dmg in contrary to attack and weapon dps.which would increase the dmg of EP to approx ~39% of the base hp.

[HardRock]

I think Blizzard want this skill to be a tactical one, not one you would spam. Making it a Spirit generator again would go against that. EP should be used sparingly and only against strong targets.

I'm fine with how the skill works at the moment, but I feel that either it's cost should be lowered a little or it's explosion damage increased. Both of those can be easily adjusted by the devs, if they see that players aren't using EP.

[yovargas]

I know we're talking primarily about the "monster goes boom" part of it, but the DoT scales with gear of course, which, to be fair, also helps with triggering the explosion, so better gear does help a little.

220% is more than "a little"!


I'm fine with how the skill works at the moment, but I feel that either it's cost should be lowered a little or it's explosion damage increased. Both of those can be easily adjusted by the devs, if they see that players aren't using EP.

I personally just want it's blast radius increased so it can more reliably hit stuff. Otherwise, it seems fine to me.

[HardRock]

220% is more than "a little"!

Fair enough. :)

I still think that you're better off triggering the explosion with other skills during its 3 seconds duration, that's why I said a little.


I personally just want it's blast radius increased so it can more reliably hit stuff. Otherwise, it seems fine to me.

That could work too, although it already has the most imaginative and unique radius extension in the form of the Essence Burn rune. That rune is one of my favorites out of all the rune effects in the game.

[WhiteGiant]

the potential domino effect it inherited was the only interresting thing it had going when it was still a spirit generator ; now its just BLUrhg.

also you could still tune the spirit generator to be more interresting ; its not the communities fault that blizzard cannot come up with interresting 1st and 2nd stages for exploding palm and sweeping wind ; i made dozens of suggestions in this monk forum how you could make skills more interresting.

i mean even Moba Heroes ( League of Legends / Dota / Heroes of Nerwerth ) have more interresting mechanics going in their spells than Diablo 3 spells. and diablo 3 is even less complicated in regards to strategy and coordination ;

they dont even really spice up skills with runes even though the whole Runesystem seems to be made for innovative mechanics.
but all they do is "your poison dart is now fiery and deals firedmg ; enjoy !"

i said it before and i say it again ; their effort to create an streamlined game in which the whole succes of you can be funneled through items ; and thus through the RMAH ; destroyed the creativeness and innovation.

i was really pumped when i first saw the level 7 runes when they first revealed the skill calculator.


the monk in particular always felt like a lackluster. and their decision to parse EP and Sweeping Wind just into Spirit spender instead of fixing them and creating new creative skills just shows that they dont really care.

the new seven sided strike and hand of ytar are pretty pathetic aswell. thats not say that the monk will be weak. but currently the Barbarian is just a better Monk than the Monk mechanically anyway if not artisitically.

[ElementEight]

The damage over time component seems counterintuitive. Since you'd want to kill that target ASAP, you'll never really fully benefit from the 220% or whatever. Poor design.

[Kintara]

The damage over time component seems counterintuitive. Since you'd want to kill that target ASAP, you'll never really fully benefit from the 220% or whatever. Poor design.I suppose it could be counter-intuitive, but it's not poor design to me. I like that about the skill. I don't find anything wrong with building in a tension like that. It makes the skill more interesting. If there's a cost problem, that can be fixed.

Also...five point palm exploding heart technique!

[ElementEight]

I suppose it could be counter-intuitive, but it's not poor design to me. I like that about the skill. I don't find anything wrong with building in a tension like that. It makes the skill more interesting. If there's a cost problem, that can be fixed.

Also...five point palm exploding heart technique!

Good design would be making that DoT a debuff which increases damage taken. While the difference is subtle (after all, a DoT is just like dealing more damage, right?) the skill would not only fulfil its aoe-on-death role, but it'd also provide a party wide incentive to focus effected foes down. It'd make the skill useful against bosses as well, as 40 spi for 240% over 3 isn't all that great.

[Kintara]

Good design would be making that DoT a debuff which increases damage taken. While the difference is subtle (after all, a DoT is just like dealing more damage, right?) the skill would not only fulfil its aoe-on-death role, but it'd also provide a party wide incentive to focus effected foes down. It'd make the skill useful against bosses as well, as 40 spi for 240% over 3 isn't all that great.Nonsense. So you don't get the full effect of your bleed if you target them down too fast. Try harder to employ the skill, instead of dumbing it down. No problem I've seen here is a fundamental issue that couldn't be solved with Spirit cost and damage tweaks.

In fact, this change would ruin the skill for single player play because it totally changes how I would have to use it.

[ElementEight]

Nonsense. So you don't get the full effect of your bleed if you target them down too fast. Try harder to employ the skill, instead of dumbing it down.

But, that's the point of it; 30% of a monster's health is potentially infinitely superior to 240% weapon damage over 3. If you were in fact properly using the skill, you'd likely let it tick for a maximum of 2 seconds, as the third tick ends the on-death effect, which effectively wastes the best part of the skill; that in itself is a "self-waste".

[Kintara]

But, that's the point of it; 30% of a monster's health is potentially infinitely superior to 240% weapon damage over 3. If you were in fact properly using the skill, you'd likely let it tick for a maximum of 2 seconds, as the third tick ends the on-death effect, which effectively wastes the best part of the skill; that in itself is a "self-waste"."Infinitely"? Huh?

And, if the spell can't tick a third time and kill the monster and trigger it's own effect, that's also easily solved.

Edit: Yes, the skill baits you into wanting something contradictory, "I want to kill them faster--wait--bleed them longer, where's the explosion?!TOOSOON!" That's called FUN!

[ElementEight]

"Infinitely"? Huh?

From what we know, monsters are supposed to have a bunch of health (ie: "hard game"). If 30% of their health in an aoe isn't worth a 80% WDamage tick, we're ****ed.


And, if the spell can't tick a third time and kill the monster and trigger it's own effect, that's also easily solved.

Oh, it can. But unless what you're fighting has really little health left, it's sketchy to rely on that tick to do the killing blow. That's why I say it's contradicting.

[Kintara]

From what we know, monsters are supposed to have a bunch of health (ie: "hard game"). If 30% of their health in an aoe isn't worth a 80% WDamage tick, we're ****ed.Um, I'm not sure you can make too much of an assumption about how much our damage is going to be outpaced by the enemies' health. What if the monsters just kill you faster instead of them dying slower? Besides, all that does is shift the emphasis of the skill from the bleed to the kill. It's not such a terrible problem.

And it's not "contradicting." It's just that there's one perfect moment for you to cast the spell at its highest efficiency. If you miss it, then it's on you, not the skill. The spirit cost and damage of either effect can be tweaked for Inferno play. (It baits you into wanting something contradictory. Not the same thing.)

[ElementEight]

Um, I'm not sure you can make too much of an assumption about how much our damage is going to be outpaced by the enemies' health. What if the monsters just kill you faster instead of them dying slower? Besides, all that does is shift the emphasis of the skill from the bleed to the kill. It's not such a terrible problem.

What makes more sense: Harder enemies having more health and hitting harder, or just the latter? From what we've seen in D2, as well as other Blizzard games -and- most if not all ARPG's, high level enemies have their health grow faster than your damage.


And it's not "contradicting." It's just that there's one perfect moment for you to cast the spell at its highest efficiency. If you miss it, then it's on you, not the skill. The spirit cost and damage of either effect can be tweaked for Inferno play. (It baits you into wanting something contradictory. Not the same thing.)

What if instead of a DoT, the weapon damage was delivered instantly?

[Kintara]

Like I said, so the balance swings a little bit as you play. The team is well aware of the effects of leveling.

As for turning it into instant damage, it just wouldn't be the same skill. I'm not asking for you to like EP the way it is, but I would appreciate it if you would stop calling it poor design. If I've failed to convince you of the logic of my taste, then at least let me convince you that some people like your poor game design.

Also, seriously, did you see Kill Bill 2? I'm not saying it's a for sure reference (and besides I know Kill Bill is an homage, and that Bill doesn't explode at the end, but his heart does ;)), but making it instant damage would be...not the image I would be going for. Neither would making it an easy to use team gank debuff. It's meant to be a finicky "master's technique."

Also, an instant damage version already kind of exists in Explosive Bolts, so I'd just play a Wizard if I wanted to see something like that.

Edit: And to be clear, I'm not saying I'd actually be any good at using the skill, I get twitchy when I feel like I need perfect timing. But I want to try to use it.

[ElementEight]

You're right, I shouldn't question our Lords at Blizzard. They've never come back on any decisions (not even on EP, which has merely changed 4 times over its lifetime), and having any critical sense when I've been working in the video game industry for near a decade isn't something appropriated for forums dedicated to discussing such games. I shall retire in silence and pop that "what it could have been" bubble as I softly lube my housewife consumer sphincter.

[Kintara]

You're right, I shouldn't question our Lords at Blizzard. They've never come back on any decisions (not even on EP, which has merely changed 4 times over its lifetime), and having any critical sense when I've been working in the video game industry for near a decade isn't something appropriated for forums dedicated to discussing such games. I shall retire in silence and pop that "what it could have been" bubble as I softly lube my housewife consumer sphincter.
Uhh, what? Okay, maybe the balance is screwy in the late game. But neither you nor I can predict that with perfect accuracy until we play.

I'm not arguing that Blizzard is perfect. I'm just arguing that your concerns can be accounted for, and I like the action of the skill. I will concede happily that Blizzard can screw things up, and might have even screwed up the damage amount or cost of this skill. But I like the process of it.

Edit: You're right in that I don't want to shut down your opinion, I just disagree with you calling it poor design, when not everything that is designed well is designed for me.

[BohemianStalker]

Regarding the runed version Essence burn..do I interpret it correctly by assuming the fire (60%dmg) dot is stackable? thanks

Another question..does Mantra of conviction work with this skill? Since it would mean runed aura makes explosion for 37.2% In a solo game. Or in case you would just activate mantra 44.4% damage?

[HardRock]

Regarding the runed version Essence burn..do I interpret it correctly by assuming the fire (60%dmg) dot is stackable? thanks

It's impossible to tell, but I'd be surprised if that would be the case, since no DoTs we saw stacked so far. In essence (get it?), what Essence Burn does is allow Exploding Palm's bleed to spread and the explosion to chain indefinitely.


Another question..does Mantra of conviction work with this skill? Since it would mean runed aura makes explosion for 37.2% In a solo game. Or in case you would just activate mantra 44.4% damage?

Good question and again, it's one that we can't answer yet. I don't see why Mantra of Conviction shouldn't boost Exploding Palm's damage.

[Valkemen]

Efficiency (vs 1 target) - how many % of dmg Monk will get spending 1 Spirit:



Spinning Flame Kick 1 Spirit = 8% dmg
Essence Burn 1 Spirit = 6,25% dmg*
Empowered Wave 1 Spirit = 5% dmg
Pillar of the Ancients 1 Spirit = 4,8% dmg


*According to Blizzard Q&A from last week (source: http://www.diablofans.com/news/1131-fansite-questions-answers-hq-gdc-slides/) DoTs will stack.

[HardRock]

Maybe, but I saw none so far that did, unless we are talking about DoT effects from different players.

[ElementEight]

*According to Blizzard Q&A from last week (source: http://www.diablofans.com/news/1131-fansite-questions-answers-hq-gdc-slides/) DoTs will stack.

The dot quote is so broad that it means nothing. Especially since it collides with some of the testing we've done ourselves. We know Poison Darts or Haunt don't stack, and those are dots. Wtf is he on?

[OneMedicArmy]

The interpretation I saw was that DoTs will stack, so long as they aren't from the same source.
Two poison DoTs would stack, so long as they weren't from the same skill for instance.

[HardRock]

That's correct. DoTs from different players or skills will stack.

[Chaboi]

That's correct. DoTs from different players or skills will stack.

I can confirm this as well.

[viledevil]

what about the same skill from different players?

[HardRock]

Those stack as well. That's what I meant by different players. :)

[Gimmershred]

Taking out the big guy first and getting swarmed by the smaller ones so they explode might be a fine tactic at lower difficulties. At higher difficulties it seems like a deathwish. At least in d2 with bad gear my tactic was to 'lure out' and kill the weaker monsters first before focusing on the big guys. Or create distance between the big guy and the smaller first, at which point the explosion is useless. So this only will work with some excellent source of stun. Does the monk have superiour stun?

[Incompetent]

Re damage as a % of unmodified health versus scaling damage with number of players:

Death/corpse-based skills tend to be weaker in a party than solo, because you are competing with your team-mates to inflict the deaths/use the corpses. For instance Rupture is definitely weaker in a party than solo, because the Barbarian inflicts fewer killing blows. Exploding Palm has the advantage though that it lets others land the killing blow, and doesn't interfere with anything AFAIK except other Monks trying to land their own EPs. I actually think EP could be very strong in a specialised party situation. You have one Monk who tries to mark as many monsters with Impending Doom as possible - he tries to kill them as well, but that's secondary to his role. Because he isn't so damage-focused, he can gear for survival and tank for the party. Meanwhile, his friend the Demon Hunter say plays more of a glass cannon role and spits out some extreme focused damage. Cue chain explosions, more than a normal Monk would be able to get in a solo game.

[Hadrial]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te8t3UPv7yI&feature=fvst

I know this video is quite old, but is it possible that the heart above the monster(EP activated), will stay until the monster dies? This way the dot lasts 3seconds, but you don't necessarily need to kill the monster in that time period as the EP debuff will still be there.

At 5:31, he definitely keeps EP on there for longer than 3 seconds, but i'm not sure the time that the dot was active before it was switched to spirit spender.

[Hadrial]

Anyone think the video shows the debuff lasting more than the amount of the DoT?

[HardRock]

Like you've said, that video is really old, it's from BlizzCon 2009. EP may have had a longer duration back then and even now there's a rune that extends its duration. I can tell you with absolute certainty, that no componenet of EP lasted for more than 3 seconds in the beta.

[Hadrial]

Do you have to use EPx3 for the debuff to actually start? So it would be 120Spirit?

[HardRock]

No, it's 40 Spirit for the 3 seconds DoT. If the enemy dies while the DoT is active, then it will explode.

[Hadrial]

That might not be that hard to time on hell/inferno champs since they will have a lot more hp.