View Full Version : Leaping Spiders are AMAZING!
This skill is great! What you get is essentially homing spiders! Being able to cast anywhere on the screen and have these little guys jump straight to any enemy on the screen in fantastic! They can get about two hits in each over a period of 2 to 3 seconds.
This skill variation a) increases the damage b) increases the spider's area of influence c) allows the spiders additional opporunities to attack d) decreases the mana you use on the skill by being more effective (you cast a fewer amount of times) e) Allows for more indirect combat - for example, you can throw a few jars into a room and run away, and they will clean the room much more efficiently than other Dot/Aoe attacks available in the beta.
I cannot recommend this skill more highly!
Edit: Highly reminiscent of the Antlions from Half-Life 2
WD pimpin summons
20-02-2012, 11:53
I've been saying this all along, ever since I read about this skill! The best thing about is, is that it works well against single targets and mobs alike. It also triggers fetish sycophants and is relatively low on mana cost for what it does.
Interesting I might have to give em another try but it is hard to compete with my Groping eels + Firebomb combo. Might have to load up beta again.
Interesting I might have to give em another try but it is hard to compete with my Groping eels + Firebomb combo. Might have to load up beta again.
Some skills are better than others depending on if you equip a lot of +DPS gear versus equipping the same amount of +Attack Speed gear.
You should try all of your skills with both sets of gear to see what you prefer.
A lot of people dislike Poisonous Frogs, but I believe that is because they benefit more from being cast quickly than from being boosted by tons of Increased Damage gear. People tend to stack +DPS gear and not see the Fast Cast side of it.
Some skills are better than others depending on if you equip a lot of +DPS gear versus equipping the same amount of +Attack Speed gear.
You should try all of your skills with both sets of gear to see what you prefer.
A lot of people dislike Poisonous Frogs, but I believe that is because they benefit more from being cast quickly than from being boosted by tons of Increased Damage gear. People tend to stack +DPS gear and not see the Fast Cast side of it.
Actually in patch13 I went all + attackspeed gear just to try it out and my crafting seemed to be getting a lot of it too. The reason I didn't like frogs and spiders was more of a playstyle preference since I enjoyed playing the WD as a ranged attacker and felt the frogs and spiders put me too close into the fray.
I have sometime this evening to mess with beta so that is plan to test the runed spiders.
free waffles
26-02-2012, 16:43
Spiders can be cast from further away then Firebomb can, so range shouldn't be a determining factor.
I think Spiders are thought of as an AOE spell, when they are actually far more effective as a single target spam. If you can maintain 3 jars down at the same time, the spiders will drop mob hp faster than anything else we have. Unfortunately, the mana cost to support the spamming is quite high early on. They are still okay against AOE, but will never be as effective as Firebomb, Toads, or other true AOE spells.
Spiders can be cast from further away then Firebomb can, so range shouldn't be a determining factor.
I think Spiders are thought of as an AOE spell, when they are actually far more effective as a single target spam. If you can maintain 3 jars down at the same time, the spiders will drop mob hp faster than anything else we have. Unfortunately, the mana cost to support the spamming is quite high early on. They are still okay against AOE, but will never be as effective as Firebomb, Toads, or other true AOE spells.
This is a correct assumption. Leaping Spiders have range, but they are effective for taking only two or three targets at a time. Something like Firebomb - Conflagration is much more useful as an AoE, with it's 28 yard radius.
I wonder though since with leaping the total of the spiders is 120% weapon damage but double the mana cost of firebomb which is 100% weapon dmg and spammable. Also poison dart with splinter is 210% weapon dmg and again half the mana const. I am finding it hard to see where spiders fit in.
Right now I use darts for single target since they are the most dmg and most mana efficient. I did a few SK runs with the spiders and actually killed SK slower than with, Grasp + darts or FB + Darts. I did like that they were fire and forget and can see where that would be handy in later levels. Unload a mana pools worth of spiders and walk away then come back and pick up loot.
HardRock
27-02-2012, 18:30
I am finding it hard to see where spiders fit in.
They do seem to have a limited use in PvE, but they could be a boon for a harassment oriented WD in PvP, who likes to stay behind cover.
EDIT: I was thinking about something like this: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#YUWbdP!VeY!Zcaaaa
You would stay behind cover as much as you can with this build, to make it harder for ranged characters to hit you. When a melee class comes close, you can fear them or run away with Spirit Walk, which also works as a heal. Otherwise just summon your dogs, throw spiders everywhere and try to haunt people. Fetish Ambush is there to bring down focus targets quickly and to sow even more chaos.
I don't know if a build like this has enough killing power or not, but dealing with it would be a nightmare for the enemy team as I see it.
They do seem to have a limited use in PvE, but they could be a boon for a harassment oriented WD in PvP, who likes to stay behind cover.
EDIT: I was thinking about something like this: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#YUWbdP!VeY!Zcaaaa
You would stay behind cover as much as you can with this build, to make it harder for ranged characters to hit you. When a melee class comes close, you can fear them or run away with Spirit Walk, which also works as a heal. Otherwise just summon your dogs, throw spiders everywhere and try to haunt people. Fetish Ambush is there to bring down focus targets quickly and to sow even more chaos.
I don't know if a build like this has enough killing power or not, but dealing with it would be a nightmare for the enemy team as I see it.
Sounds very familiar to the warlock builds for arena back in early TBC. I actually have a build that is very similar for pvp depending a lot on who I am grouped with.
HardRock
27-02-2012, 21:39
Sounds very familiar to the warlock builds for arena back in early TBC.
That's where I got the inspiration from. :)
WoW builds influencing our D3 builds, the horror!
That's where I got the inspiration from. :)
WoW builds influencing our D3 builds, the horror!
Blasphemy! :smug:
free waffles
28-02-2012, 11:17
I wonder though since with leaping the total of the spiders is 120% weapon damage but double the mana cost of firebomb which is 100% weapon dmg and spammable. Also poison dart with splinter is 210% weapon dmg and again half the mana const. I am finding it hard to see where spiders fit in.
Right now I use darts for single target since they are the most dmg and most mana efficient. I did a few SK runs with the spiders and actually killed SK slower than with, Grasp + darts or FB + Darts. I did like that they were fire and forget and can see where that would be handy in later levels. Unload a mana pools worth of spiders and walk away then come back and pick up loot.
Spiders will get a minimum of 2 hits per spider in, which means its 240% weapon damage, not 120%, but still not enough damage to support the mana cost at only 2 hits. However, on a stationary target, Spiders will get 3-4 hits each easily, creating anywhere from 360%-480% weapon damage. With enough Mana regen (supplementing with Haunt rune), keeping 3 jars of spiders down at a time could result in upwards of 1080% or more dps on a single target. The problem currently is getting enough mana regen to support having 3 jars down at all times and keeping the target stationary. Pets + Grasp of the Dead do a lot to help the second aspect.
Honestly, at level 60, I probably won't use Spiders, unless they are Fire-runed. My intention is to go with either a single target poison damage spell (Zombie bears/Splinters) and an AOE fire Spell (Firebomb) or vice-versa (Acid Cloud + Fire Dart/Blazing Spiders). Grasp of the dead and Gargantuan will already give me physical damage.
Leaping Spiders is probably one of the best-designed skills in the game.
On the outside, it sounds like a bad skill that doesn't do much. But really, it brings something that no other skill does, I think. Basically, it's really good at killing specific targets, but only if there are no other enemies around that target. It's very interesting in that it's almost two spells in one - a low AoE DOT on multiple enemies, or a high single-target DOT, depending on the situation.
Furthermore, Leaping Spiders are probably the #1 skill in the game for killing those blasted Imps that run around so fast!
Furthermore, Leaping Spiders are probably the #1 skill in the game for killing those blasted Imps that run around so fast!
I am in full agreement with this:thumbsup:
Looks like they may have nerfed spiders. Not sure that was necessary for beta.
http://diablo.incgamers.com/images/wiki_icon.pngCorpse Spiders (http://www.diablowiki.net/Corpse%20Spiders)
Weapon damage decreased from 24% to 16%
Edit: Looking into mana changes to see if this perhaps might not be a buff. Thanks Kintara.
It's only a nerf if the cost remains the same. I find it hard to believe that it's really 4.9 mana, but maybe it is. Haunt went from 9 to 98 mana.
It's only a nerf if the cost remains the same. I find it hard to believe that it's really 4.9 mana, but maybe it is. Haunt went from 9 to 98 mana.
I did not see the mana changes on the patch notes so I assumed nerf. I guess I should log onto beta and see if there is a change to mana cost. If it is really a low as you say it might be the new go to spell.
Assuming the datamined mana cost is correct, I think Blizz is aiming for making Corpse Spiders a semi-Signature spell by having it cost under the natural mana regen total so you can refill your mana bar while still casting something, especially with the raised cost of Haunt going from being under the mana regen amount to well over it with the last patch.
Might help make a full Vermin-oriented skill setup viable, since you can use spiders as your filler attack skill, Bats for higher focused damage, (rune-ing it for the longer range, assuming it doesn't make the skill suck) locusts for a big situational DoT against harder targets, and Toads being a situational skill as either extra AoE or maybe CC (could also use it as alternative zero mana cost skill with the rune). That way all your attack skills get the 20% damage buff from the passive, and you could stick in two utility spells like Harvest and Grasp on the side. You could get this up to 40% bonus damage from passives if you throw in Pierce the Veil, if mana pools can support it.
I agree with the WD signature spells. Prior to patch14 WD was the only class that could really run out of resources and have nothing to cast. It seems they are working to change that if the changes turn out to be true. I must admit I will be happy with these too. Gives me a reason to log onto beta in the morning.
The skill is a bit silly to be honest, furthermore I think the leaping spiders are way too big and if you spam them they take up the whole screen, after which they suddenly die of mysterious reasons lol.
Practically every Witch Doctor skill is "silly." This is the class with chickens, dancing, toads...even Grasp of the Dead primarily reminds me of Army of Darkness. Army of Darkness was silly. But it was also awesome.
reflexii
17-03-2012, 12:45
Patch 15 brought some changes to Corpse Spiders. Their damage has been nerfed, but this doesn't matter to me too much, now there is actually an OPTION what to use. The skill costs now 4.9 mana to cast (down from 48!), so it practically means you can spam spiders all eternity, which is awesome, given how cool they look. Also stuff like widowmaker spiders return 3.4986 mana per hit! so that means when your spiders get their average hits per cast (which is about 8 afaik), you actually regenerate ~28 mana per cast! (~24.5 after cost). Jumping and Blazing Spiders still deal quite a fine amount of damage (19% and 20% respectively) equaling to 152% and 160% per cast (8 hits).
They'll probably be used as secondary damage dealers and not primary (as I used to use them). Loving the idea of spamming high-damage DOT's to enemies and then ravaging the ground with tons of (almost free) spiders.
WD pimpin summons
17-03-2012, 13:09
That change is actually very cool. I was worried about the mana cost before, but now you can use the skill without any worries.
Just imagine a high IAS build with leaping spiders. There are homing spiders everywhere!
Great change, I definitely like it.
I hope they've changed the slow cast animation to a faster one. And that the AI of the spiders won't screw this skill, which seems a little too probable against monsters that move any faster than the ones found in the beta. Still, a change that should open a few more build options, which is really nice.
HardRock
19-03-2012, 14:14
The mana costs scale with character level once again. CS is only 2 mana when you get it at level 3.
The scaling of the WD's mana pool is the same, 140 + 10 for every level. Base mana regen is still 20 / sec.
yovargas
19-03-2012, 15:42
If CS is 2, what are Dart and Toads?
HardRock
19-03-2012, 15:51
Dart is 4, Toads is 18 and Firebomb is 6 mana when you unlock them.
The scaling of the WD's mana pool is the same, 140 + 10 for every level. Base mana regen is still 20 / sec.
Base mana regen in Patch 14 was 25 :(. Witch Doctor has scaling mana costs again, so the reduction in base mana regen hurts T_T. As if it's not bad enough that we can't spam certain spells lategame anymore T__T.
Corpse Spiders is actually really disappointing in Patch 15 :(. The spiders lost like what - a third of their damage and got like a 88% mana cost decrease. On paper, that sounds really good, but in practice, it's a horrible change T_T. You need to stand there and spam spiders for much longer than usual before they do any hurtings.
It doesn't help that the cast animation for it is HORRIBLE. If you have this on your primary, it feels like the most frustrating thing :S. The animation for it was fine for the Patch 14 version where you only had to throw it a couple times, and you could run around while the spiders did their work.
When you're playing a class like the WD or Wizard, the time that you can spend being stationary is very precious because there are all sorts of monsters trying to get you, and the new Corpse Spiders doesn't really gel with that. I dunno, it feels like you really need to spam the crud out of Corpse Spiders before they are useful. They're still ok against single-targets like the Skeleton King, but even Poison Dart with Splinters kills the SK faster, I noticed.
I hope they revert this rework for Corpse Spiders. T_T
So, the cast speed for Coprse Spiders is, as I've understood, slower than for Poison Dart, for example?
If so, I'm just speechless at the stupidity.
It's not the cast speed, so much as the cast animation - he'll throw the jar as soon as you click the button, but the jar has to fly up, crash on to the ground, then the spiders come out. The end result is that even though he throws the jar as soon as you click, there's still a short delay until the actual spiders appear.
Firebomb also has a short travel time, but it feels more responsive, if you know what I mean.
I didn't really feel this problem with Corpse Spiders before, when it was a secondary attack, but now that it's a primary skill that really needs to be spammed to be effective (just due to the way spiders work), it feels a lot more sluggish.
I agree with a couple of the above posters. The animation is WAAAYYY too long! Everyone complained about the jar being unnecessary and kinda dumb and now it's more than just a case of aesthetics. It kills the usability of the skill. I'm maxed out level 13 and EVERY other skill in the beta seems better and more worthwhile. The runed animation looks cool and I expect that to be even more true of some of the runed versions we don't have access to, but that hardly makes up for the fact that in retail higher difficulties looking cool and being alive are going to be two very different things!
The one place I could a use for the spiders was throwing them down levels where you were immune from the beasties, safe to spam the spiders to your hearts content (or they were dead). But Haunt has the same ability and works even better as it latches onto all sorts of stuff and is able to be put on specific targets (ones in the back of packs causing all the mischief for instance).
So, I don't get it, as it stands, it's the worst damaging attack I have access to. ;-(
Keep in mind that while Spiders are easily spammed, they are not mean to be used as a direct attack or quick damage dealer the way many other skills are. It's a summoning spell, and as such they are meant to compliment other such summoning spells, DoT's, and direct damage spells, and to work their mojo on top of or apart from whatever else is going on around them. That has its benefits and its drawbacks as well, but it is a very different spell from Firebomb or Poison Darts.
You can't layer damage when the animation is that long and the damage that low. You can say you're layering on the runed affect like a slow but again this skill does nothing, even on paper much less in practice that other skills can't do better. I think the recent tweak to it shows you they're confused what to do with it.
HardRock
25-03-2012, 13:22
You can't layer damage when the animation is that long
It's not that bad with fast weapons. Maybe its animation's speed is an intentional drawback.
this skill does nothing, even on paper much less in practice that other skills can't do better.
What other skill would you use, if you wanted to deal damage from behind a corner?
Sorry Musashi, it is no where near as bad as your negativity makes it out to be.
Well I plan on being in a party most of the time, solo maybe around a corner. But in a group? You mean people are all going to wait around a corner? You're going to get your follower to wait around the corner? lol
HardRock
26-03-2012, 22:18
Yeah, I was mostly talking about solo play. In Inferno, I can easily see myself staying safely behind a corner and spamming CS, when I know that there's a Vortex, Electrified, Jailer Elite waiting to own me at the next turn.
Keep in mind that while Spiders are easily spammed, they are not mean to be used as a direct attack or quick damage dealer the way many other skills are. It's a summoning spell, and as such they are meant to compliment other such summoning spells, DoT's, and direct damage spells, and to work their mojo on top of or apart from whatever else is going on around them. That has its benefits and its drawbacks as well, but it is a very different spell from Firebomb or Poison Darts.
Functionally the spiders have nothing to do with summons, they can't act as meat shields by taking a beating instead of you. They are a stackable 3-second DoT, with special modular and homing characteristics. You should not use them as a supplementary damage source because the effect of one jar is short and weakish, thus requiring multiple casts to be effective, eating away precious casting time from other spells.
Firebomb and Poison Dart are exactly the skills it should be compared to, as they all fill the slot of cheap resource-light attack. Practically it's something in between the two extremes of single-target and AoE damage spells.
Yeah Jaago has it right there. It is amazing how differently a person views the game if you're going to solo or party, hardcore or soft, melee or not.
I'm still sold on the WD even though I have my moments when my love affair with the monk rears it's pretty head.
I just like that you can be 3 or 4 totally different kinds of hero's as WD.
Sorry, but no, Corpse Spiders is not like those spells at all. It is neither a fast single target spell like Poison Darts, nor an instant area damage spell like Firebomb, or even an area DoT like Grasp of the Dead -- it's closest equivalents are actually spells like Toad of Hugeness, Hex, and Fetish Army. You don't cast those on an enemy or an area, you summon them and they act on their own. You can't control what they choose to attack, all you can do is pick where they appear and let them do their thing. That's a big difference from your regular attack spells.
Sorry, but no, Corpse Spiders is not like those spells at all. It is neither a fast single target spell like Poison Darts, nor an instant area damage spell like Firebomb, or even an area DoT like Grasp of the Dead -- it's closest equivalents are actually spells like Toad of Hugeness, Hex, and Fetish Army. You don't cast those on an enemy or an area, you summon them and they act on their own. You can't control what they choose to attack, all you can do is pick where they appear and let them do their thing. That's a big difference from your regular attack spells.
The way they work is different but the cost of using corpse spiders, poison dart, or firebomb is essentially the same. It costs one skill slot, takes time to cast, but relatively little mana to cast. So while you could layer on damage with both corpse spiders and firebomb, you could also save a skill slot and just pick one of the two skills, and obviously you'd have other skills which are more potent and require more mana.
So the consensus is damage-wise firebomb and poison darts are better, but corpse spiders has niche tactical use for clearing monsters around a corner?
Does spiders interfere with Mongrels pathing or vice versa?
HardRock
28-03-2012, 09:28
No, they don't. Everything and everyone can walk over them.
HardRock
28-03-2012, 20:57
So the consensus is damage-wise firebomb and poison darts are better, but corpse spiders has niche tactical use for clearing monsters around a corner?
I just compared Poison Dart and Corpse Spider against Leoric. I didn't use any other skills against him and my gear was the same for both tests. With PD it took me 31 seconds to kill him, while the fight lasted for 55 seconds with CS. If he wouldn't keep summoning skeletons I think he could be killed in about 40 seconds even with CS.
Against solitary, single targets PD is the best choice, there's no question about that. However, CS wouldn't be much worse in that scenario either and it's much more versatile in any other situations. One problem with CS is that you can't kill a priority target with it quickly if its near other enemies, but PD suffers from the same problem as well, since it's a projectile.
To summarize, here's what I think about each skill. At the moment, mana costs are completely irrelevant. All three skills are basically free.
Poison Dart
Pros: best against single targets
Cons: projectile
Corpse Spiders
Pros: good against single targets and group of 2-4 enemies, can be used to attack enemies without line of sight
Cons: slow cast time, can't be targeted in groups
Firebomb
Pros: best against tight clusters of enemies
Cons: the worst in any other situation
Corpse Spiders isn't really any better against small groups than Poison Dart is, unless overkill is a huge issue. I'd actually think that being always able to choose your target and concentrate fire are more important advantages for Poison Dart. So In my opinion, the spiders should be the best single target DPS of the three.
HardRock
29-03-2012, 08:51
I think in the previous patches they were the best or at least close to it. They should raise their base damage back to 25%.
If you're willing to stand around killing things, then Poison Dart should make it possible to do that the quickest. You can keep moving with Corpse Spiders though, which is one of the reasons why I prefer them.
Yeah, they were very strong previously, as far as I understand.
If you're willing to stand around killing things, then Poison Dart should make it possible to do that the quickest. You can keep moving with Corpse Spiders though, which is one of the reasons why I prefer them.
But currently, this is just an illusion: you still do more damage if you Poison Dart and run than you would do if you cast Corpse Spiders and run. With proper rune, the damage from the dart is instantaneous, whilst the spiders will always require time to do their thing.
I'd really prefer the spiders, too, if I found them to be correctly balanced, that's all I'm saying. The mana cost difference might be a justification later on, though.
You can't control what they choose to attack, all you can do is pick where they appear and let them do their thing. That's a big difference from your regular attack spells.
Well, that's where we disagree, I don't find it much of a difference with regard the other attacks in the primary category. After all, the goal is to kill everything, so I'd think that a skill that does something else than kill stuff is more 'different' than a skill that just might kill that stuff in a different order.
For filling a certain role within the build, I find function, mana cost and cooldown to be more decisive in a skill than it's AI characteristics.
Wow, if the "of the Black Widow" item affix for Corpse Spiders will improve the duration of the spiders in the finished game as well, it can really dip the balance in favor of CS. Right now, it seems that the spiders die just before their third attack, so even a one-second increase in their duration could increase total damage potential by as much as 50%. That's something I'm definitely looking forward to see in the finished game.
I'm curious, which spell has the longer cast animation, darts, or spiders? The faster spell would facilitate movement the most, thus, the slower spell should be balanced to do more DPS. The focus fire advantage of poison dart should help offset the increased overkill relative to CS, as Jaago said.
Wow, if the "of the Black Widow" item affix for Corpse Spiders will improve the duration of the spiders in the finished game as well, it can really dip the balance in favor of CS. Right now, it seems that the spiders die just before their third attack, so even a one-second increase in their duration could increase total damage potential by as much as 50%. That's something I'm definitely looking forward to see in the finished game.
I was pretty disappointed with leaping spider, but after reading about the +skill modifiers, I'm left with some hope.
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