1 handed weapons compared to 2 handed ones - how does it effect the skill dmg?

[remodemo]

example: i have a barbarian that dual wields axes. the main hand axe deals 15 dmg, the off hand one deals 10 dmg.
i use hammer of the ancients. how much dmg does it deal? main hand? off hand? both of them combined?
i use cleave. how much dmg does it deal? main hand? off hand? both of them combined?
in another scenario, i have a 2 handed axe that deals 20 dmg. is the advantage that i attack more powerfully but with a much lower attack speed?
wouldnt it be totally unfair if it was combined (since dual wields normally have higher dps (combined) than 2 handers)? and on the other hand, if only 1 weapon counts, wouldnt skills like earthquake be way stronger for 2 handers?

[koticgood]

The benefit of using a 1h would be 15% attack speed bonus that is inherent with dual wielding, and the stats from wielding two items. As for hammer of the ancients and everything else, you would alternate which item you use just like normal attacking.

[imthedan]

from what i've read, it's your character dps rather than your weapon dps. the dps that you see when you open the character window at the bottom is what the skill scales off of. i'm not sure about this, but it's what others have said rather confidently.

that said, it'll just depend on your play style. each axe can have different stats (different +skills? more fury generator per hit, ect...)

also as kotic said, you get a passive 15% AS bonus for dual wielding. chances are i will dual wield on my barb unless i find a really cool 2h.

[Azzure]

If you dual-wield and use an ability, you will do less damage for that swing than a 2h would. However, your attack speed is quicker, and hence you generate more resources, hence you can do abilities more often.

So some skills favor 2h, some favor dual-wielding. Depends on your build.

[saint_of_killers]

Does anyone know the penalty to dmg to DW? (i didn't know about the 15%ias, which is cool) I've noticed if my barb DW's a 1h 19dps and an 1h 14dps, his dps only increases by ~1, compared to if he were to use the 1h 19dps + shield

[Zokar]

One handed weapons compared to 2 handed ones - how does it effect the skill doing best results so be conscious It has been found that american arms has a lot of antioxidants that has been helpful for increasing the energy expenditure of the yourself.

Either this guy is on something, or somebody is testing a bot program...

[galzohar]

Does anyone know the penalty to dmg to DW? (i didn't know about the 15%ias, which is cool) I've noticed if my barb DW's a 1h 19dps and an 1h 14dps, his dps only increases by ~1, compared to if he were to use the 1h 19dps + shield
The total DPS you get is the average DPS of both weapons, since they alternate (they don't strike at the same time). To make it better than using 1h, the attack speed is then boosted by 15%. However, if the average DPS of your dual-wield is lower than the DPS of your strong weapon, the 15% attack speed bonus might not be enough to make up for it and you will have a DPS loss compared to just using a shield.

I hope that was clear enough...

[saint_of_killers]

The total DPS you get is the average DPS of both weapons, since they alternate (they don't strike at the same time). To make it better than using 1h, the attack speed is then boosted by 15%. However, if the average DPS of your dual-wield is lower than the DPS of your strong weapon, the 15% attack speed bonus might not be enough to make up for it and you will have a DPS loss compared to just using a shield.

I hope that was clear enough...
thanks =D the explanation was clear, but I'm still not sure if fully explains the issue...

Since the displayed DPS is the average of the 2 weapons you're DW'ing, does that mean that the displayed DPS is potentially doubled? Since its the average of two separate weapons? If that makes sense. I assume the answer is "no", since I thought it displays your overall DPS, but I suppose I still dont quite get how adding a 14dps weapon that also increases my attack frequency still only gives me 1.5 extra dps overall... (just to clarify, the shield has no +str modifier). So I'm still wondering what the penalty to DW is.

And I wonder, if DW actually lowers your dps (for whatever reason), then would the benefit just be more procs and different stats?

edit:
although, now...I think I get what you're saying. So if i DW a 19dps and a 14dps and the attack frequency is 1.5 attacks per second on both, then when I DW them, they individually don't still attack 1.50 times each, even on a rotating basis? I just get the 1.5aps base of the MH + 15%ias calculated for attacking in general, and then they're rotated, is that right?

An example 20dps + 15dps DW. Striking at 1aps each. So the DW calculation would be 17.5dmg x 1.15aps = 20.125dps. So DW (at least at this low of a lvl) barely gives a significant dps increase. But again, I suppose increased procs/different stats is a bonus.

[Zokar]

I did a little bit of investigating this a while back...

What I found was that each wep gets a 50% reduction when DW. After that a 15% bonus gets added to the total and then all the attributes get tacked on (str/crit/etc).

So, as an example I have an 11.2dps sword and a 9.0 dps dagger. I put them both on and I get (11.2 + 9.0)/2 = 10.1. Adding the 15% attack bonus -> 11.615 and since I have 46str naked 11.615 * 1.46 = 16.9579. We can go on and include the crit and any other modifiers and you'll see that it eventually gets to your display value.

This is why you want your 2x 1h to be similar in dps.
If you had a 20dps axe and a 10dps dagger then (20 + 10)/2 = 15. 15 * 1.15 = 17.25 and since all the str/crit/etc get added to both situations we can stop there and analyze. In this case just sticking with a 20dps axe would give you 20dps (plus str/crit mods) but DW with the axe and a low dagger results only in 17.25 dps (plus str/crit mods). So there is a breaking point where you dont want to use a 2nd wep if it is too low.

We want to find out when: ((x + y) / 2 )* 1.15 = x or in otherwords y = (0.85/1.15) * x

So, as an example if your main hand is 10dps then the second wep needs to be *at least*
y=(0.85/1.15) * 10=7.3913...
So, lets verify: ((10 + 7.3913...)/2)*1.15 = 10.

If we had a 6 dps wep, we shouldn't use it: ((10 + 6)/2)*1.15 = 9.2
If we had a 9 dps wep, we should use it: ((10 + 9)/2)*1.15 = 10.925

Hope that helps.

[galzohar]

It's not really a 50% damage reduction, it's simply that they attack 1/2 as often, since they alternate. Then, in order to make 2 identical weapons do more damage than just 1 such weapon, you get a 15% attack speed bonus. Therefore, a dual-wielder with 50 damage 1 aps weapons would attack 15% more often (each time with the other weapon) than someone who just has 1 of those weapons and a shield.

If your offhand weapon is not identical to your main hand weapon, you may deal less damage than if you just use the strong weapon with a shield, depending on how big the difference is between your weapons.

[Zokar]

It's not really a 50% damage reduction, it's simply that they attack 1/2 as often, since they alternate. Then, in order to make 2 identical weapons do more damage than just 1 such weapon, you get a 15% attack speed bonus. Therefore, a dual-wielder with 50 damage 1 aps weapons would attack 15% more often (each time with the other weapon) than someone who just has 1 of those weapons and a shield.

If your offhand weapon is not identical to your main hand weapon, you may deal less damage than if you just use the strong weapon with a shield, depending on how big the difference is between your weapons.

Actually it is a 50% reduction in DPS. Not in damage. We're saying the same thing :P

[galzohar]

Except I think the way you're saying it is confusing the poor guy :)

[Zokar]

Except I think the way you're saying it is confusing the poor guy :)
Possibly... :D

[cacophony]

When dual-wielding, certain skills will now always use your main-hand weapon to determine damage

For example, Cyclone Strike will use your main-hand weapon damage even if your off-hand weapon is set to swing next

At least that's clear now.

[galzohar]

I don't like the "certain skills" thing, unless they would clearly state it in the tooltip or something. Besides, for people using only such skills, will offhand be a stats-only weapon? That would be weird.

[Kingu]

Certain skills, means those that don't use specific weapon in their animation, like hammer of the ancient, as opposite to cleave or bash.

[HardRock]

It would make sense, but a confirmation would be nice from beta testers. Of course, it's not possible to check if this holds for higher level skills or not just yet.

This also means, that if you use these skills a lot with one-handers for the faster attack speed, you're probably better off equipping a shield in your offhand for the extra armor. Depending on how much the affix pool differs between shields and one-handers you may not lose too much offensive stats this way.

[konfeta]

Unless you want the dual wield attack bonus; or maybe skill affixes that exist only on mighty weapons, etc.

[HardRock]

Unless you want the dual wield attack bonus

Totally forgot about that.

[galzohar]

Yeah - If anything, this encourages dual wield. Using only main hand with 15% speed increase is a net gain over the old system where they would alternate, even if it only applies to some skills.

[cacophony]

Yeah - If anything, this encourages dual wield. Using only main hand with 15% speed increase is a net gain over the old system where they would alternate, even if it only applies to some skills.

Correct. They have to make sure two-handed weapons are about 15% better, though...

[Zokar]

Correct. They have to make sure two-handed weapons are about 15% better, though...

It's more complicated than that. They have to consider resource generation differentials as well. Arguably, however, people will not consider this on the whole and will make the determination based on the char sheet dps stat.

[HardRock]

They have to consider resource generation differentials as well.

I'm not very good with numbers, but damage-wise wouldn't that be more or less balanced between one-handers and two-handers? You attack faster with one-handed weapons, so you gain more resources over time, but your skills that you're spend it with will also do less damage.


Arguably, however, people will not consider this on the whole and will make the determination based on the char sheet dps stat.

Most likely that will be the case, but thankfully that isn't such a bad idea like it was in D2. Over longer periods, the character sheet in D3 should be a fairly good indicator of our DPS.

I think the most important thing that it doesn't (and can't really) show is your overkill and so your kills per second. Let's assume, that you're choosing between two one-handed and one two-handed weapons, and your DPS is similar regardless what you choose. It may still be much more beneficial to go with dual-wielding, depending on the monsters you face, because, for example, the two-hander may require two hits to kill an enemy and if your first hit brings it down to 10% HP, then most of the time you spent on your second swing was wasted and didn't really do its full damage. Once in a while, this isn't such a tragedy, but if you encounter these monsters regularly, then your kill speed will be far from optimal. Dual-wielding is a much better choice in these situations.

[Zokar]

I'm not very good with numbers, but damage-wise wouldn't that be more or less balanced between one-handers and two-handers? You attack faster with one-handed weapons, so you gain more resources over time, but your skills that you're spend it with will also do less damage.


It's not entirely a damage question from a balance perspective. If attacking 15% faster generates 15% extra rage, then that is a bonus over a 2handed use case. One could use that for damage, or for some other utility. For example, that extra rage could be used for Sprint where in the 2handed case, one may not have the additional rage to do so. So that is worth "something". The question becomes, what does one have to pay for this? Without being able to use a shield, the barb loses out on defensive attributes, but is that enough or too much of a penalty? These types of questions and more have to be considered in the grand scheme, there has to be a cost for the advantage of dual-wielding, but it does not have to be all made up in damage. This is where to falls apart from a math perspective and becomes more of an art issue. How much damage does one give up for X amount of 'utility'? That's not a particularly obvious answer from a mathematical perspective as it requires having some way of relating damage reduction, run speed, magic find (like the one shout that provides extra chance to get mobs to drop stuff), etc to damage done.

It's really late so I hope I didn't ramble on... I'll try to re-read my post in the morning :P

[HardRock]

I did think about utility and healing skills, but thought that most if not all of them were on cooldowns, which would lessen the gap between 1H and 2H weapons. Sprint is a great example to the contrary however and previously the Monk's Breath of Heaven was also much better for dual-wielders, thanks to the fixed amount that it heals. Now that Breath of Heaven is on cooldown, using it with two-handers shouldn't be much worse. I guess this is one way we could expect Blizzard to handle this issue.

[galzohar]

Some skills favor faster attack over higher damage while others do not.

If you only generate resources from generator skills and only spend them with spenders that have no secondary effect beyond damage, then speed doesn't matter.

Passive regen (DH/WD/Wiz and maybe even barb fury generated from damage taken) favors slow weapons for resource-costing skills, since you'll be doing more damage per resource point for the resources generated with the passive regen.

Utility skills (no damage component) that have a resource cost favor faster weapons.

Damaging skills with cooldowns will favor slower weapons.

Add to the above the fact that faster weapons also tend to come with lower DPS (even after the 15% DW bonus), and the fact that this may or may not be made up for with flat +damage items, and you get a pretty complex situation.