Gold might not be so plentiful after-all.

[Azzure]

http://diablo3markets.incgamers.com/blog/comments/gold-might-be-much-more-scarce-than-we-all-thought

It seems that Gold might not be as common as we all assumed. The results are quite groundbreaking if this turns out to be accurate.

[sgeos]

I could see a slow linear increase in the value of gold drops. I think it is too early to say one way or another. Stuff happens during beta, and things can change before release. Things can even change after release, with patches and all.

I find that sleeping on a problem can work wonders. I often wake up with solutions.

[viledevil]

good catch on those videos. those have to be more relevant than the beta drop system being extrapolated.

that said... lets recall from the blizcon ah video that we talked about (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=813737)

'note the gold total, something like 158m with commas'

[Bowzer]

Nice catch Azzure.

It gets me to thinking, what percentage difference of gold was dropping from normal to late nightmare in diablo 2?

[MilkmanAl]

I find it hard to believe that those values are going to be correct. They really expect you to kill 1000+ things to even take a stab at crafting an upper-level item? I seriously doubt it.

[AngleWyrm]

In this video (http://www.youtube.com/user/ForceSC2strategy#p/c/5C2F514ECED855CA/0/bhwUlAHSkrg) the player's stats can be viewed at about 3:45.

Played about two hours; 50 minutes as barbarian (to lvl-5), and 1:13 as monk (to lvl-8)
Killed 1147 monsters (39 elite - a 30:1 ratio), or about 500 kills/hr, 10 kills/min.
Collected 2623 gold, about 1300 gp/hr, or about 2 gp/kill.

That probably doesn't include liquifying loot drops for gold, and selling stuff on the auction houses.

[Azzure]

I find it hard to believe that those values are going to be correct. They really expect you to kill 1000+ things to even take a stab at crafting an upper-level item? I seriously doubt it.

Well think about it. In the Beta (which has lower gold drops than we are reporting at the end-game), you can easy get a few thousand gold after an hour or two.

When you think about it, it starts to make perfect sense. When a crappy item or white trash item drops, you usually salvage it for mats. Why? Because gold is so plentiful in the Beta that you don't really need more of it. It's pretty bad design to make it that you salvage everything and completely ignore the use of the Cauldron of Jordan to sell it for gold.

Now you might think twice before salvaging instead of vendoring it for gold.

Furthermore, it seems that Blizzard have designed Crafting to yield MUCH better items than we are familiar with in comparison to Diablo 2. If the Beta is anything to go by, you virtually use every item you craft as it's a huge upgrade to your current dropped item. While that is not a very good example (because there are hardly any affixes in the Beta), it is clear that affixes are far more balanced in D3 than in D2, and there is so far no such thing as a crappy Affix (which there were plenty of in D2).

In Diablo 2, you could spend 500 perfect skulls and not get a single decent item crafted in the cube. In Diablo 3, it will still take a lot of mats to get a perfect item, but a decent item is all but guaranteed.

[AngleWyrm]

Is it possible to vendor scraps for gold?

[Azzure]

Is it possible to vendor scraps for gold?

Pretty sure it is.

[MilkmanAl]

Furthermore, it seems that Blizzard have designed Crafting to yield MUCH better items than we are familiar with in comparison to Diablo 2. If the Beta is anything to go by, you virtually use every item you craft as it's a huge upgrade to your current dropped item. While that is not a very good example (because there are hardly any affixes in the Beta), it is clear that affixes are far more balanced in D3 than in D2, and there is so far no such thing as a crappy Affix (which there were plenty of in D2).

In Diablo 2, you could spend 500 perfect skulls and not get a single decent item crafted in the cube. In Diablo 3, it will still take a lot of mats to get a perfect item, but a decent item is all but guaranteed.

That's a fair assessment, but I still doubt it'll work out that way. Having so little crafting will make for a pretty meager economy unless boss/area running can get you items similar to crafts. When you consider the other costs that are rumored to be fairly hefty - repairing comes to mind - people won't be too willing to spend the spoils from an hour or two of monster killing on a random item.

[Azzure]

That's a fair assessment, but I still doubt it'll work out that way. Having so little crafting will make for a pretty meager economy unless boss/area running can get you items similar to crafts. When you consider the other costs that are rumored to be fairly hefty - repairing comes to mind - people won't be too willing to spend the spoils from an hour or two of monster killing on a random item.

Yeah, I think crafting is very similar in principle to how it was in D2 - it has a negative return on investment, but it a quicker way of getting better gear. So players would use crafting as a way of "forcing the hand of fate" in to giving you an UNID rare item, rather than waiting for the game to spew one out - but at a cost.

Crafting in D3 is fundamentally a gambling system. You are paying X amount in gold and materials to force the game to drop a rare for you. That rare may suck, or it may be awesome. (though as I said above I think they have made it so all affixes are somewhat useful, so the notion of a sucky item and an awesome item have changed).

[Spens]

I'm sure they are still tweaking gold drops. With those numbers, it might be faster to farm normal for gold than later difficulties.

[Azzure]

I'm sure they are still tweaking gold drops. With those numbers, it might be faster to farm normal for gold than later difficulties.

True, but remember - a single inferno/hell drop = scraps = up to 1000x more valuable then common scraps or gold drops in normal. That's not even including potential good drops that can sell for 10,000x more.

I think with the current numbers we have seen it is more lucrative to stay in hell or inferno for gold-farming purposes. Unless you're a bot.

[Moik]

Are sell values known for items not accessible in beta, or is that hyperbole? I can't easily find a citation, but I have a vague recollection of someone mentioning that the best vendor price encountered during a BlizzCon beta for a Hell/Inferno Legendary was around 1500 gold.

On the topic of gold scarcity, I agree with the assumption here that it will be scarce, but I feel that it should be clarified to be that it will be scarce for casual players using casual play.

This guy here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVc1aGJUugU
Using live beta content, just for learning the gold find mechanics and not even optimizing for farm rate, found he could make 1600+ gold from a repeatable five-minute run while using not-quite-optimized gold-find gear. Allow around 20% downtime for run resets and he's still making 15,000 gold an hour while at level 13 and in the earliest parts of Act 1.

We can anticipate scaling that up for the Hell drop rate noted at the start, and scaling it up for out-leveling the content and killing faster, and scaling it up for fully optimized gear bonuses, scaling it up again for a Demon Hunter running around with an Alabaster-Runed Companion skill, and a bit more for further refinements to location selection and farming strategies.

My gut says a focused farmer can still earn 100,000 gold an hour at the top level even with these seemingly scarce drop rates. The thing is, the majority (casual players) would only be earning a tenth that.

So there may end up being a massive asset disparity which could end up easy to opt in to. What effect would that have on competition and prices? Could this lead to sudden, repeated price crashes as bandwagoners jump on and dump their gold into the pool?

[AngleWyrm]

Are sell values known for items not accessible in beta, or is that hyperbole?
Yes, the vendor sell-back price of all normal gear (as of patch 6, build 7841) can be explored here (http://www.d3inferno.com/items/Items.html). This database doesn't include the legendaries, but it does include vendor pricing. Top tier normal gear seems to be 400gp, with jewelry at 200gp.

The prices for normal gear are very linear. The formula is approximately itemLevel*5.5+45 for weapons and armor, and somewhere around itemLevel*2.75+25 for jewelry.

EDIT: Image link updated
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/oimg?key=0AsV4vD18LZLxdFNDcmt0LXRYTjJrWjFMUzRlaW5N elE&oid=1&zx=203xts82zca6

If you find pricing information for Scrap or other resources, please link me to it, and I'll update this chart.

[Moik]

Neat!
Is it known how the Item Level is defined, or what the Item Level cap will be?

[Azzure]

Yes, the vendor sell-back price of all normal gear (as of patch 6, build 7841) can be explored here (http://www.d3inferno.com/items/Items.html). This database doesn't include the legendaries, but it does include vendor pricing. Top tier normal gear seems to be 400gp, with jewelry at 200gp.

The prices for normal gear are very linear. The formula is approximately itemLevel*5.5+45 for weapons and armor, and somewhere around itemLevel*2.75+25 for jewelry.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/oimg?key=0AsV4vD18LZLxdFNDcmt0LXRYTjJrWjFMUzRlaW5N elE&oid=1&zx=8xdhvlar6bw3"

If you find pricing information for Scrap or other resources, please link me to it, and I'll update this chart.

Interesting. Though I fully understand why they would make it linear as putting diminishing returns may make it more profitable to farm nightmare or hell due to the quicker kills.

[Grayson Carlyle]

Your image link is a generated source from a secure login that requires authentication to access. i.e. We can't see it.

[AngleWyrm]

Aw crap, google docs defaults to private resources.
Updated shared status and image link, can you see it now? (hit refresh)


Is it known how the Item Level is defined, or what the Item Level cap will be?
Looks like the highest level items are level-60. Not yet sure what the relationship is between say a level-10 mob/chest and what level equipment it can drop.

[Grayson Carlyle]

Aw crap, google docs defaults to private resources.
Updated shared status and image link, can you see it now? (hit refresh)

All good! Danke.

[galzohar]

I don't like the idea of being able to farm gold faster at lower difficulties. It has the potential to make gold useless again, as anyone will be able to farm gold, but farming inferno scraps is going to require you to actually play the tough parts of the game, meaning any inferno drop will either have an insane price in gold after enough time, or will not be sold for gold at all, and instead be sold either purely for real money or in old-school item-for-item trades.

There was a very good reason to assume that gold gains will grow exponentially. If it doesn't, then farming the much easier difficulties becomes worthwhile until the point where gold becomes worthless (as the only thing you can farm in lower difficulties is gold, and thus gold will be the only thing that anyone can farm easily). The only way I could see linear increase in gold values being a working solution is if the increase in time it takes to kill something (assuming no extra risks are taken) also increases somewhat close to linearly. Otherwise, linear gold means you farm whatever you need in inferno, and then when you're short of gold you go mop the floor with some nightmare/hell monsters to quickly gain the missing gold to craft whatever you need or buy extra stash space.


I also disagree with crafting being a net loss. If crafting is a net loss, more people will want to buy gear with gold and sell crafting materials (for whatever currency in case gold fails). This in turn will drop the value of crafting materials and gold while increase the value of items, until they break even again. The only thing that could turn crafting into a net loss, would be people being lazy to search the AH for an item they want and instead just craft it at a loss. But again, this isn't necessarily a loss, as you saved time, and time has a value too.

[AngleWyrm]

There was a very good reason to assume that gold gains will grow exponentially. If it doesn't, then farming the much easier difficulties becomes worthwhile until the point where gold becomes worthless
This perception can lead to mistakes. Exponential growth is merely an assembly of several linear growths. What usually happens is that the actual components that form a growth acceleration or drop-off are not perceived or factored in, resulting in the extra modelling of exponential growth on top of the actual factors that cause such growth. Because of these problems in failing to notice or hunt down the real contributing variables, it is best to avoid using exponential growth, except in the highly unusual case where the number of variables is what changes in the formula.

Also, is it wrong to be allowed to play in anything but the most extreme level? Must we all play max difficulty inferno mode?

[AlabasterFilth]

Also, is it wrong to be allowed to play in anything but the most extreme level? Must we all play max difficulty inferno mode?

Not really "wrong", but it sort of devaules the gameplay for the reasons mentioned above. I for one agree that it would be silly to have to go rolfstomp around in normal mode anytime I'm hurting for gold. Hopefully that won't ever be necessary, for reasons that Azzure stated; that being, that items/mats found in inferno will generate a better income then killing level 1 zombies in act 1 normal (or to put it another way, no one should ever really be hurting for gold in the first place).

Another thing to consider is that some areas of the game might be more conducive to gold for reasons other than monsters. For example, currently in the beta, the best place to farm gold is in the room before the Skeleton King (it's called the Royal Crypts). It's the best not because of the monsters, but because of how many destructible objects there are. Most of the gold in the room is found by breaking the pots for gold drops. In the final game, there could be a quest boss or act boss that drops huge piles of gold. There might be a side-quest or sub-quest that gives a lot of gold as its reward. Who knows?

[Azzure]

Not really "wrong", but it sort of devaules the gameplay for the reasons mentioned above. I for one agree that it would be silly to have to go rolfstomp around in normal mode anytime I'm hurting for gold. Hopefully that won't ever be necessary, for reasons that Azzure stated; that being, that items/mats found in inferno will generate a better income then killing level 1 zombies in act 1 normal (or to put it another way, no one should ever really be hurting for gold in the first place).

Another thing to consider is that some areas of the game might be more conducive to gold for reasons other than monsters. For example, currently in the beta, the best place to farm gold is in the room before the Skeleton King (it's called the Royal Crypts). It's the best not because of the monsters, but because of how many destructible objects there are. Most of the gold in the room is found by breaking the pots for gold drops. In the final game, there could be a quest boss or act boss that drops huge piles of gold. There might be a side-quest or sub-quest that gives a lot of gold as its reward. Who knows?

For reasons I mentioned earlier in this thread, even if the current numbers that we reported on went live, it is still far more profitable to stay in Inferno and/or Hell to farm for gold than going back to normal.

Only bots would want to farm in lower difficulties because they have to have easy content to operate in or they will die. Which has no implications at all of having a slower rate of exponential gold drops in higher difficulties.