New salvaging rates, anyone else excited?

[celbii]

From patch 5 notes

"Items
Pages of Training will now drop starting at level 6, down from level 8.

The chance for Magic and Rare items to salvage into higher quality crafting material has been increased from 1% to 5%.

Salvaging blue items now has a 1% chance to salvage into Legendary crafting material"
So earlier pages,
chance to get higher quality mats increased from 1% to 5% (I guess a way to look at it, for every 1 you got before out of 100 items you would get 5 now which is equal to 25 instead of the 5 you would have got for 500 items)
And blue items have a 1% chance to salvage into legendary mats, which just gave every player guaranteed incentive to salvage blues now whereas they may have just skipped them before. pretty cool imho.

[Kblavkalash]

Blues items are magic? So salvaging magic items gives you legendary materials.. what?

[celbii]

1% chance, I just take it as a way to make salvaging blues more useful, I won't argue about it lol.

[Kblavkalash]

Why not make that you can get legendary materials only from legendary items? o_O
If you can get best materials just by salvaging crappy blue items then they won't have high value.

[Wizz]

they wont have value? you must be kidding.
1% or 100%
100x more chance with Legendary to scrap to legendary mats
close to no chance with Magic/Blues to scrap to legendary mats
and the 1%-5% increases was probably needed (end game internal testing lvl 60 stuff) due to the huge amount of matierials needed from each category of mats.

[Kblavkalash]

they wont have value? you must be kidding.
1% or 100%
100x more chance with Legendary to scrap to legendary mats
close to no chance with Magic/Blues to scrap to legendary mats
and the 1%-5% increases was probably needed (end game internal testing lvl 60 stuff) due to the huge amount of matierials needed from each category of mats.

Yes, I imagine blue items going to be most common, so you salvage 20 of them and get 1 legendary. You really think they gonna have high value?

[Buu]

Yes, I imagine blue items going to be most common, so you salvage 20 of them and get 1 legendary. You really think they gonna have high value?
You'd need to salvage 100 on average to get a legendary.

Do we know the relative drop rates for each rarity?

[Wizz]

Yes, I imagine blue items going to be most common, so you salvage 20 of them and get 1 legendary. You really think they gonna have high value?
salvage 20 for 1 legendary? what numbers are you looking* at?
salvage 100 for 1 legendary scrap. if it was 1 in 20, thats 20%. its only 1% broski, nothing to worry about in my honest opinion, not gunna reply again because i do not feel i can explain this any better lol, sorry.:cloud9:
*If your looking at the 1%-5% increase,
that is only 5% chance to get magic - > rare... not magic - > legendary

[Buu]

salvage 20 for 1 legendary? what numbers are you looking* at?
salvage 100 for 1 legendary scrap. if it was 1 in 20, thats 20%. its only 1% broski, nothing to worry about in my honest opinion, not gunna reply again because i do not feel i can explain this any better lol, sorry.:cloud9:
*If your looking at the 1%-5% increase,
that is only 5% chance to get magic - > rare... not magic - > legendary

Side note: 1 in 20 is 5%.

[Kblavkalash]

salvage 20 for 1 legendary? what numbers are you looking* at?
salvage 100 for 1 legendary scrap. if it was 1 in 20, thats 20%. its only 1% broski, nothing to worry about in my honest opinion, not gunna reply again because i do not feel i can explain this any better lol, sorry.:cloud9:
*If your looking at the 1%-5% increase,
that is only 5% chance to get magic - > rare... not magic - > legendary

I know math is hard. If you have 5% chance of getting legendary material from magic item then you need 20 of them to get 1 legendary material. Legendarie materials are considered best AFAIK and it looks kind of easy to get them.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

I know math is hard. If you have 5% chance of getting legendary material from magic item then you need 20 of them to get 1 legendary material. Legendarie materials are considered best AFAIK and it looks kind of easy to get them.

Your math is right. Your reading is wrong.
You have a 5% chance to get "higher quality" mats from magic items.
You only have a 1% chance to get legendary mats from them.

I guess this is because people were preferring to sell blues than salvage them in play testing, but that's just a shot in the dark.

[celbii]

I know math is hard. If you have 5% chance of getting legendary material from magic item then you need 20 of them to get 1 legendary material. Legendarie materials are considered best AFAIK and it looks kind of easy to get them.

did you even read the post? Where are you pulling the 5% number out your rear? Its only 1% for legendary.

[Mage Slayer]

You salvage a magic item:
94 times out of 100 you get: White mat + Magic mat - i.e. 1 in 1.06
5 times out of 100 you get: White mat + Rare mat - i.e. 1 in 20
1 time out of 100 you get: White mat + Legendary mat - i.e. 1 in 100

[DoomSpirit]

Gamble time ^^
I like that change :p

[chryso]

You salvage a magic item:
94 times out of 100 you get: White mat + Magic mat - i.e. 1 in 1.06
5 times out of 100 you get: White mat + Rare mat - i.e. 1 in 20
1 time out of 100 you get: White mat + Legendary mat - i.e. 1 in 100

higher quality could also mean that you get nightmare stuff out of normal items

however, they probably did that for additional "yay!" moments rather than balancing the crafting costs

[celbii]

higher quality could also mean that you get nightmare stuff out of normal items

however, they probably did that for additional "yay!" moments rather than balancing the crafting costs

Most definitively, thats why I said earlier it gives us much more incentive to salvage items that we might of otherwise just sold or left on the ground instead. Now we have a chance to get extra goodies.

[starrise]

And, in a sense, it creates a gold sink. If the worst salvaged items are worth less than the equipment salvaged, then less gold was added to the economy if you salvaged it. And since there is a "good" chance of a better salvaged item, there is more incentive to salvage than before, thereby reducing the quantity of gold in the economy. Neat!

[cacophony]

And, in a sense, it creates a gold sink. If the worst salvaged items are worth less than the equipment salvaged, then less gold was added to the economy if you salvaged it. And since there is a "good" chance of a better salvaged item, there is more incentive to salvage than before, thereby reducing the quantity of gold in the economy. Neat!

Is that a gold sink or a gold dam? I never took civil engineering...

[galzohar]

As said, change was probably needed to keep gold meaningful. If blues end up not worth salvaging due to them giving useless scap that you already have a crapload of and don't need anymore, then they would all get sold for gold and players would also have much more gold than they need in addition to useless scrap.

With a small chance to get rare/legendary material you will keep salvaging them, and while that would still probably end up in you having way too much useless scrap materials, it will at least keep gold in check by making you salvage the blue items anyway. To a point, of course, since gold is also required for crafting and repairs.


I doubt they meant "normal->nightmare" materials when they said "higher quality". Doesn't make sense for a level 20 item to have a chance to give materials for a level 40 item. I still don't even know how they're going to balance early-normal item salvaging with late-normal item salvaging, or early-hell item salvaging with late-hell item salvaging, since each difficulty only has 1 type of scrap but monsters in early normal/nightmare/hell are probably much easier to kill and get loot from than those in late normal/nightmare/hell.

[cacophony]

I still don't even know how they're going to balance early-normal item salvaging with late-normal item salvaging, or early-hell item salvaging with late-hell item salvaging, since each difficulty only has 1 type of scrap but monsters in early normal/nightmare/hell are probably much easier to kill and get loot from than those in late normal/nightmare/hell.

I think the first "good" NM crafts won't show up as soon as you enter NM. You'll probably be building up a small cache of NM materials before you can spend them on NM crafts. Hopefully the artisan leveling curve is forgiving enough so we don't have to farm the previous difficulty too much to keep our artisans up to date.

[galzohar]

Let's say you are preparing for inferno. If all items from hell were equivalent in terms of salvaging, you would be best off to farm act 1 hell for easiest/fastest results. Of course unless the actual chance at a good drop is more important than scrap farming, but even then the sheer fact act 1 is easier and has the same loot potential might make people do it (say, people who simply can't handle the end of hell by themselves, but managed to finish it once with the help of others and got their artisans to learn at least a good thing or 2, or simply gather mats so that their friends can use their own high artisans to make stuff for them).

Overall, I don't think it's good to be able to farm level 2 mobs to craft level 20 gear.

[starrise]

Is that a gold sink or a gold dam? I never took civil engineering...

Haha fair enough! :) I just meant one way or another this change will make for less gold.

Galzohar also further explained my point about disincentivization for gold creation. Which is almost certainly what they were thinking when they did it, what with their paid economist. On the other hand, you might be able to game the system by not salvaging blues, getting gold, and buying mats on the AH depending on trade rates, but that's a discussion left for the economics forum.

[Crudesash68]

Overall, I don't think it's good to be able to farm level 2 mobs to craft level 20 gear.

Well, it comes down to time; let's say there is a 1/20 chance for higher quality materiasl from a level 2 blue, but a 20/20 chance for higher quality materials from lvl 20 blues; how long will it take to get one lvl 20 blue vs 20 level 2 blues?

Also, look at the fun factor-at level 20, you are being at least somewhat challenged by the mobs, whereas you are one-shotting groups back in the starting areas....kind of boring, no?

[galzohar]

Yes, if time and chance is a factor that will be a step forward, though I'm not sure if enough, and either way there is no info about whether this will be the case or not (all known numbers indicate fixed chances).

Fun factor is almost a non-factor after you've already cleared all content that your gear allows you to clear and are now just gearing up for the content your gear is too weak to clear. Blizzard keep saying that they want to make the most effective stuff also the most fun, and I fully support that concept, and hope they make it work here as well one way or another.

In the end solution must factor in that even if killing harder monsters is more effective in terms of scrap per time spent, it means absolutely nothing if one cannot clear said content without repeated deaths (but can scrape clearing it enough to get his artisan high enough or use a friend's artisan), and thus keeps clearing level X content just to get level X+2*Y gear to clear content with monsters of level X+Y.

[starrise]

I would imagine they are more concerned with inferno items. Blizzard wants there to be a gold equilibrium (e.g. no inflation). Obviously this is not possible, but if the inflation rate is miniscule, then for the lifetime of the game it is more-or-less in equilibrium, which is good enough. The gold inflation will be largely caused by the vendor sale of inferno items from players who can farm with minimal required gear repairs. If these people have incentive to make better gear for themselves, the auction-house, etc., because they think they can make real money -- or more gold -- that way, then they will do it.

To that end, why not offer a small chance from inferno blues for the inferno yellow crafting item to drop (and the orange)? Not insignificantly small, but large enough that it is economically worthwhile. E.g. often enough that the gold (or real money) from auction-housing the crafted items outweighs the gold from direct sales of the blues. Then gold would stop entering the economy from this largest single source, and there would be less inflation.

Galzohar raised another good point and to build on it I offer the idea that if one dies often enough, thus suffering durability damage, on inferno to the point that it isn't economically viable, then people will farm hell full-tilt until they can craft what should be inferno level gear. So in effect, this is also a bootstrapping mechanism.

[Flux]

I've been meaning to write an article about salvaging and crafting changes, but here are some quick points.

The odds to get yellow and orange mats are much increased, but still quite small. It was extremely hard to get any yellow (rare) mats earlier, unless you broke down a rare item. But since those (almost) only drop from Leoric's quest kill, they were damn scarce. So you needed rare mats to make rare crafting recipes, but you could only get rare mats from salvaging rares. which you couldn't get at all. Catch 22.

Now you can get rares from salvaging blues. I haven't seen anything lke 5% return myself; I played a copule of hours of clvl 13 wiz and DH last night and didn't keep exact count, but I salvaged at least 150 blue items, and got 2 rare mats total.

Orange material is useless in the beta, since there aren't any recipes that call for it. You could previously only get it from salvaging a legendary item (which meant griswold's sword). Or I suppose you had a 1% chance from salvaging an rare item, but since those were almost impossible to come by, and were almost always worth using.... I never saw an orange from a yellow salvage. I've gotten orange from 2 or 3 blue salvages, post-patch. (Which is amusing, since griswold's sword is now a blue item, removing the only viable pre-patch source of useless orange mats.)

The biggest change to crafting in the patch is the MUCH increased mats in recipes. You get more blue mats (from white items) and yellow mats (from blue items) now, but you find fewer blue items (more are white or even gray now), and everything you're making costs a lot more to create. Previously there was no reason to pick up white items, since every blue you salvaged gave you at least 1 white and 1 blue. They still do, but the recipes require much more ingredients.

http://diablonut.incgamers.com/blacksmith
Those are the current recipes, and most of those required like, 3/2, or 4/2 previously. Now they're like 11/4 white/blue mats. That adds up in a goddamned hurry, and I've been picking up EVERYTHING in my games since the patch. Every white, every gray, etc. All just to salvage. I'm running out of common scraps before subtle essence, since white mats are so heavily hit in all the recipes. This has made me not miss the CoJ much, since I wouldn't be selling anything but potions/scrolls/recipes at this point. (Since they can't be salvaged.)

http://diablonut.incgamers.com/item/journeyman-spell-book
The rare recipes are super expensive now. That one used to be like 5/3/2 in cost. Now it's 23/10/3!

So you have a lot more rare mats to try for the rare recipes, but the overall crafting expenses have risen greatly. Gold used to be the main choke point, since you had tons more blue/white mats than you could use. Now it's all about the mats, and you easily find enough gold to keep up with your crafting expenses, even though you've got much less gold since you're never selling anything.

[Azzure]

As of Patch 5, they have heavily reduced the Mats and Gold price of the High-level craft recipes.

I did an article on mat prices a few weeks ago (http://diablo3markets.incgamers.com/blog/comments/theory-salvaging-high-level-items-more-scraps), and if you compare the screenshot taken back then in that article, to the new version of that item on the official site (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/artisan/blacksmith/recipe/exalted-fine-sagaris), it has gone down from 17 rare mats to 7, and the gold price has gone from 18,500g to a mere 5,500g. Sign of Blizzard getting the point that having 10,000,000,000g is not very practical, and therefore lowered gold drop amounts as well?

We know they reduced the drop rates for Magic items in Beta. Did they do this across the board in all areas and for rares and Legendaries also? Sure looks like it.

[Flux]

Yeah, but that high end item is miles beyond anything we're dealing with in the beta, which was what my post/thoughts were focused on. I'm trying to get a handle on the economy weve got, not really worrying about inferno stuff when everything about it is so hypothetical at this point.

[celbii]

You bring up a good point Flux with them increasing the price to craft( In mats) for those beta items. Seems like before you could just pass up whites, now you almost have to grab every one. I think there will be a huge Mats market on the RMAH.

[Azzure]

Yeah, but that high end item is miles beyond anything we're dealing with in the beta, which was what my post/thoughts were focused on. I'm trying to get a handle on the economy weve got, not really worrying about inferno stuff when everything about it is so hypothetical at this point.

Yeah, it looks like they have increased the cost of low-level items, and decreased it at the higher-end. I'm pretty sure this is to reduce the huge imbalance with crafted items early on being so damn good compared to drops, as well as reducing the amount of scraps you have in reserve in the early-game. I remember before the patch, having huge loads of scraps, so much that I could craft anything I wanted at any time. Now I actually have to choose between which items I want to craft.

It looks like in regards to the end-game side, they didn't like the concept of having to melt down 19 rares to make a single crafted item. I also found this to be extremely odd - it was way too expensive to do a single craft, and if the philosophy of "low-chance of getting good stats" still applies, it's just way too expensive to craft.

Paired with the fact that it looks like all magic+ items received a massive nerf in droprates...

[Flux]

I did a new DH last night and did indeed pick up everything, for salvaging, and by clvl 11 I had around 150 white and 65 blue materials. Plus 2 rare and 1 orange. I watched for some time, and if I ever got a blue mat from salvaging a white or gray item, I didn't notice. At one point I had about 55 common scraps and not a single subtle essence, since I'd not yet salvaged a single blue (all I'd found I was wearing).

The patch notes said 5% chance for rare mats from blue salvage, and I've not seen that sort of return, but it's been more than 1% for sure. However I feel confident saying that you do not have a 5% chance for blue mats from white salvage; I didn't get a single one from over 70 trials. So maybe it's supposed to be 5% yellows from blue, and 1% orange from blue, but white items don't upgrade materials at all, or else it's 1% chance of blue at best.

I didn't do any crafting at all with that char, mostly since I was testing out skills and with crafted gear your damage goes up so quickly (mostly from +attack stat on armor) that everything becomes too easy for any useful comparative evaluation. But at least in the early going, you do get FAR more white items and thus white materials, than blue, and rares remain very hard to come by.

[ElementEight]

They're following the (old) WoW model again; let's have a random example.

Enchanting and its Disenchanting ability was WoW's equivalent to D3's Salvaging.

Let's have a random green quality (equivalent to D3's blue quality) 2h axe from the WotLK addon:

"Scarlet Battle Axe
Binds when equipped
Two-Hand Axe
388 - 583 Damage Speed 3.50
(138.8 damage per second)
<Random enchantment>
Durability 85 / 85
Requires Level 80
Item Level 182"

Upon disenchanting, the following materials had a certain chance of occuring:

Greater Cosmic Essence
75 Drop Enchanting 82% <= Green quality (blues; magic from D3's standards)

Infinite Dust
70 Drop Enchanting 17% <= White quality (whites; normals from D3's standards)

Dream Shard
80 Drop Enchanting 1.1% <= Blue quality (yellow; rares from D3's standards)

As you can see, in this system, green quality items (blue; D3) have a small chance of yielding superior (rare; D3) quality of materials.

[Crudesash68]

They're following the (old) WoW model again; let's have a random example.

Enchanting and its Disenchanting ability was WoW's equivalent to D3's Salvaging.

Let's have a random green quality (equivalent to D3's blue quality) 2h axe from the WotLK addon:

"Scarlet Battle Axe
Binds when equipped
Two-Hand Axe
388 - 583 Damage Speed 3.50
(138.8 damage per second)
<Random enchantment>
Durability 85 / 85
Requires Level 80
Item Level 182"

Upon disenchanting, the following materials had a certain chance of occuring:

Greater Cosmic Essence
75 Drop Enchanting 82% <= Green quality (blues; magic from D3's standards)

Infinite Dust
70 Drop Enchanting 17% <= White quality (whites; normals from D3's standards)

Dream Shard
80 Drop Enchanting 1.1% <= Blue quality (yellow; rares from D3's standards)

As you can see, in this system, green quality items (blue; D3) have a small chance of yielding superior (rare; D3) quality of materials.

That is a valid comparison, but you have your mats flipped: the dusts are the most common result, then essences, then shards.

[Grayson Carlyle]

That is a valid comparison, but you have your mats flipped: the dusts are the most common result, then essences, then shards.

No, he took that straight from the database. Armor gives dust more often (it's not dusts, it's dust, it's already plural) than essence, whereas weapons give essence more often than dust.