Extra Mongrels?

[Naja]

A couple of the runed skills, Devolution and Boogie Man, give a certain chance that killed monsters will resurrect as Mongrels.

Does that mean that, in theory, we can summon more than the maximum of 4 Mongrels if monsters keep dying under those two spells' power?

Or does one Mongrel die off every time another Mongrel is "born," keeping it at the 4 Mongrel threshold?

[Elgareth]

I'd assume you can't go over the 3/4 Mongrel Limit, since you'd easily be able to AMASS Mongrels otherwise...
So I guess it's meant as "Mass-sacrificing"-Mongrel-Technique.

Or maybe the mongrels created by such skills as Mass Confusion, Big Bad Voodoo and the like die as soon as the Skill Duration itself expires, though that seems more unlikely to me.

That's probably why Mongrels as such have a 60 Sec cooldown, but sacrifice has none. So you can become some sort of Corpse-Exploder, only that the Corpses are living-dead-dogs :D

Interesting side-thought on Synergies...
will the Mongrels be rune-upgraded if you have the "Summon Mongrel"-Spell runed and active as well?
Same topic as addling Toads and Mass Confusion-Runed...
And Mirror Images+Archon/Teleport-Runed of the Wizard.

[Smash]

I second to Elgareth, probably they will no spawn if you have 3(4) Mongrels already or they will spawn with short life timer other way my Summoner heart would explode from happiness and that Blizzard cannot stand :(

There is a lot of questions like that, is huge toad and spider queen a minion? How Zombie Wall (creeper) work?

[blackbisket]

with circle of life now I have to wounder if the cap will get higher though

[Razehel]

I agree that we'll likely be limited to 3 or 4 Mongrels no matter what. But I too am wondering what happens when you're already at your limit. Will the dog replace an existing one? Will it auto-sacrifice immediately if enemies are nearby? Will it even spawn at all?



Interesting side-thought on Synergies...
will the Mongrels be rune-upgraded if you have the "Summon Mongrel"-Spell runed and active as well?
Same topic as addling Toads and Mass Confusion-Runed...
And Mirror Images+Archon/Teleport-Runed of the Wizard.

During the Gameplay and Auction House panel at BlizzCon last month, Wyatt Cheng confirmed that any Mongrels gained from Circle of Life will inherit rune effects if you've got the summon skill. I'm not sure if that includes Mongrels gained any other way.

It is also unclear if this sort of concept applies to other skills like the Wave of Force and Mirror Image rune effects for Teleport, but none of this is included in the tooltip text so I wouldn't doubt it.

[JumpyMonkey]

I did some runs using Zombie Dogs and Circle of Life. With all 3 dogs out, I never saw Circle of Life activate at all. It would not replace them and never summoned more than 3.

[Shaft.ed]

So in effect it's just a clunky way to replace an active skill with a passive.

meh

[ElementEight]

I love how they claim that the WD doesn't have to pick summons to be effective.

But they offer, like, 50 alternatives. Make up your mind. Either they're not necessary, and only one skill should summon them - because that's what skills are about, being unique, right? - or they're necessary and, well, we get what this is.

[Soval]

I love how they claim that the WD doesn't have to pick summons to be effective.

But they offer, like, 50 alternatives. Make up your mind. Either they're not necessary, and only one skill should summon them - because that's what skills are about, being unique, right? - or they're necessary and, well, we get what this is.
What an utterly silly argument.

Tell me, how does the availability of several different sources of summoning in any way force you to use those skills and passives or make non-summoning builds impossible? I''ll give you a hint, it doesn't. Nothing about these secondary Mongrel summoning effects has any effect on how a non-summoning player plays.

You will never ever have a dog with you unless you go out of your way to select the skills, runes, or passives that summon them.

[Frantic]

I done some runs with Circle of Life and had no Summon Zombie Dogs spell and no Dogs out. Eventually I ended up with 3 Dogs from Circle of Life; worked my *** off trying to get my fourth but nothing. So it's definitely capped at 3 (and I assume capped at 4 with that other Passive).

Was fun though having 3 Dogs without needing the spell though. The chance of getting a Dog is quite rare - plus you need to be really close to the monsters when they die. But when you get one, you have him for a really long time. It's quite fun.

[Sulle]

I done some runs with Circle of Life and had no Summon Zombie Dogs spell and no Dogs out. Eventually I ended up with 3 Dogs from Circle of Life; worked my *** off trying to get my fourth but nothing. So it's definitely capped at 3 (and I assume capped at 4 with that other Passive).

Was fun though having 3 Dogs without needing the spell though. The chance of getting a Dog is quite rare - plus you need to be really close to the monsters when they die. But when you get one, you have him for a long while. It's quite fun.

It makes a lot of sense, that they capped it at 3(4 with the passive skill), because otherwise people would farm easy monsters till they had like 20 or more zombie dogs and then venture towards the boss and use sacrifce to do instant 200x 20 weapon % dmg. That´s an exploitation, and would make i.e. bosses a lot easier, and thus make the game a bit unbalanced.

[Frantic]

There is an interesting side effect of Circle of Life too. If you don't have the Summon Zombie Dogs spell and you get your 3 Dogs from Circle of Life, you can then swap Circle of Life out and you get to keep the Dogs. Given how long they last, this would be the best thing because when you have 3 out, Circle of Life does nothing else.

It should be changed though to avoid this sort of behaviour, otherwise it will encourage players to swap it out when needed.

[Splifx]

woops wrong forum...

[ElementEight]

I love how they claim that the WD doesn't have to pick summons to be effective.

But they offer, like, 50 alternatives. Make up your mind. Either they're not necessary, and only one skill should summon them - because that's what skills are about, being unique, right? - or they're necessary and, well, we get what this is.



What an utterly silly argument.

No u.


Tell me, how does the availability of several different sources of summoning in any way force you to use those skills and passives or make non-summoning builds impossible? I''ll give you a hint, it doesn't. Nothing about these secondary Mongrel summoning effects has any effect on how a non-summoning player plays.

Oh, but certainly you must be wrong. Truly, if mongrels (and all summons, to an extent) were not to be core to the witch doctor's gameplay, then 6 alternatives to not selecting the skill would not be offered. Clearly, they're trying to not pigeon hole you into having the original mongrel skill while stiff offering a way (or like, 8 of them) of having personal tanks.


You will never ever have a dog with you unless you go out of your way to select the skills, runes, or passives that summon them.

Wow! Really? The opposite statement wasn't even my point at all, so why this is brought up is beyond me. I was discussing the necessity of having mongrels, underlined by the fact that 6 skills offer you the option of summoning them should you decide not to use the original skill. Heck, there's also a plethora of passive skills literally dedicated to improving them.

Just look at the following video: he's talking about no-summon witch doctors like they're these weird characters that require a wholly different set of attributes to be viable. He's using at least two skills that overlap in role (firebombs and that green goo thing' = aoe damage); one of them simply could have been mongrels, and right off, he'd have been so much more effective. Half the time he's running around, taking damage that his summons could have instead, and not dealing much himself in return. It's kinda pathetic, actually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-Zd7YD3uuM

Just not selecting summons brings his build from the "optimal" category to the "viable" one. Tell me that's not bias towards mongrels, I'll reply "no"

[Soval]

I see, so your whole complaint seems to stem from an incorrect belief that non-summon builds are always going to be at some kind of disadvantage compared to summoning (specifically Mongrel) builds. There is no evidence for that conclusion at all, in fact quite the opposite -- Blizzard has stated repeatedly that they have no intention of making summoned minions mandatory or disadvantaging non-summon builds (and no, one bad build that is being played poorly does not undermine that fact).

The thing is, this is not a competition, it's not a choice between summons or not-summons; you build your doctor based on what you want to get out of the skills, mixing and matching to get whatever theme or utility you desire. Sometimes, using Dog skills may get you what you want, and sometimes, not using them winds up being the superior choice... but that is all up to what you want to do, not a design choice in the game that favors Mongrels (or any other summons) over other styles of play.

But you also have to keep in mind however that the WD is a summoner by trade, so it's not really all that strange or outrageous that he has skills, runes, and passives that lean in that kind of direction.

In any case, getting extra Zombie Dogs won't save anyone's character from their own bad build.

[ElementEight]

I see, so your whole complaint seems to stem from an incorrect belief that non-summon builds are always going to be at some kind of disadvantage

It isn't incorrect given that I cannot imagine any situation where one would be at an advantage over a build with mongrels. Even Jay Wilson, the damn lead producer, claims that a build going away from summons is weird and uses it as an example of something strange or viable over optimal.

The most obvious argument could go along the lines of "having an extra spell", but this is irrelevant given that a) cooldowns aren't present en masse and b) you may only use one spell at once anyway.

I'm merely finding it really strange that they're including so many ways of summoning mongrels themselves. It really hurts the uniqueness (as much as it is) of the original skill itself. That was my argument at the roots.

[Soval]

I cannot imagine any situation where one would be at an advantage over a build with mongrels.That's entirely your own problem, not the game's.

Even Jay Wilson, the damn lead producer, claims that a build going away from summons is weird and uses it as an example of something strange or viable over optimal.Which does not match what we've seen of the potency of the Witch Doctor's non-summoning skills, they have no problem in letting you go toe-to-toe in open combat.

The reason the dev's think it is strange to consciously avoid summoning skills (and the WD has many of them) is because consciously avoiding such skills for the purpose of consciously avoiding such skills is not a very logical way to play the game. I'm sure they'd be puzzled just as much if someone tried to build a Demon Hunter that deliberately avoided using Discipline skills. Nothing stops those builds from being effective, it's just an odd choice in how you'd want to build your character.

[ElementEight]

That's entirely your own problem, not the game's.

Of course not - I'm saying that summons (not just mongrels) are very hard if not suicidal to skip.

All of this is a very big irony:

-No build should be overwhelmingly better than other
(clashes with)
-Mongrel/summon builds are overwhelmingly better than non-summon builds
(clashes with)
-They don't want to pigeon hole you into picking certain skills
(clashes with)
-Many runestone effects & passives provide the benefits of skipping mongrels, despite their claims of not wanting to pigeon hole you, and not wanting overwhelmingly good skills


I'm sure they'd be puzzled just as much if someone tried to build a Demon Hunter that deliberately avoided using Discipline skills. Nothing stops those builds from being effective, it's just an odd choice in how you'd want to build your character.

You'd probably want to compare this to a non-mana using witch doctor to express your point. Summons aren't a resource.

[demasked]

Quite sure there will only be 3 mongrels at all times. The skill runes and passives that have resurrecting mongrels will probably be only useful for the sacrifice skill or when your mongrel wall dies.

[Soval]

Eight:
Of course not - I'm saying that summons (not just mongrels) are very hard if not suicidal to skip.Back to this, eh?

You have not established at all that going without summons is going to be suicidal.

(clashes with)
-Mongrel/summon builds are overwhelmingly better than non-summon buildsYou have not established at all that Mongrel/summon builds are going to be "overwhelmingly better," or anything close to it.

Many runestone effects & passives provide the benefits of skipping mongrels, despite their claims of not wanting to pigeon hole you, and not wanting overwhelmingly good skillsYou have not established at all that we are being pigeon-holed into summon builds or that Mongrels or any other summon is going to be "overwhelmingly good."

You seem stuck on a concern you cannot support.

[JumpyMonkey]

There is an interesting side effect of Circle of Life too. If you don't have the Summon Zombie Dogs spell and you get your 3 Dogs from Circle of Life, you can then swap Circle of Life out and you get to keep the Dogs. Given how long they last, this would be the best thing because when you have 3 out, Circle of Life does nothing else.

It should be changed though to avoid this sort of behaviour, otherwise it will encourage players to swap it out when needed.

I don't think this will be a problem in the higher difficulties. Your zombie dogs will die and probably a lot more often than you would like.

[Mage Slayer]

I'm not sure how a non-summoning WD is any less viable than a wizard. You'd have fewer skills/runes/passives to choose from since you've arbitrarily decided to exclude the summoning ones, but you still have access to high damage, AOE, crowd control, buffing and movement skills with passives to support them. A bit less variety of builds than for wizards of course, but no less viable. It's no different than deciding to, say, make a wizard like a D2 sorc by ignoring all arcane skills or deciding you don't want your DH to use any throwing or trap skills.

Ultimately if you don't want to summon you'd just best make sure you have a good crowd control skill or two in your build.

As for the runes making summoning dogs less special, the rune generated dogs are really meant to be a bit of a bonus. If you actually want the dogs as an integral part of your build, always present or for use as sacrifices, you'll want the skill proper in order to:
a) ensure they'll always be there when you need them
b) rune them

I wouldn't take the survivability/utility of dogs in the easy, easy beta as a sign of how they'll last in hell or inferno either. Especially unruned dogs.

It's not like every other rune effect and passive summons them, or that they're as powerful as having an Archon as a pet! That would be a problem. But in reality I can't see one.

[ElementEight]

Eight:Back to this, eh?

You have not established at all that going without summons is going to be suicidal.
You have not established at all that Mongrel/summon builds are going to be "overwhelmingly better," or anything close to it.
You have not established at all that we are being pigeon-holed into summon builds or that Mongrels or any other summon is going to be "overwhelmingly good."

You seem stuck on a concern you cannot support.

You haven't established the opposite either, so I'll offer a spread of my arguments:

-The ability to have personal tanks has been very beneficial across most if not all games I've played. Examples include, but are not limited to: AoS style games, MMORPG's (WoW stands out with Hunters & Warlocks; they made leveling a breeze, back when it was semichallenging), D2 (for a single point investment, my bonemancer/venomancer could have a 20k hp golem, and for a few more, half a dozen of revives => I could not solo tristram beforehand, and this allowed me to...) While those are annecdotes, I'm sure that they're strong enough for myself to feel confident that this trend will remain across D3 and many other games to come.
o Summons provide, quite obviously, a screen between you and the bad guys. Witch doctors are unlikely to be brawny enough to want to be tanks themselves. Of course, there's the possibility of building up defensively - at which point your damage capabilities take the hit.
o Summons provide you with a way of keeping stuff standing still. The WD has multiple spells which deal damage over an area over time. Keeping stuff within said AoE with summons is certainly going to be easier than without.

In one word regarding the above: Synergy.

I should mention that while D3 isn't "competitive" by itself, friends and I certainly made bets as to who will clear inferno first. My eyes have been on the WD exactly because of summons, given that my past experiences with other games has found them to be so beneficial.

Since to be competitive* you don't really need anything more than the best single target DPS skill, and the best area of effect damage skill to deal with 99% of situations, this leaves us with a build that's very open and obviously screams for summons to take part, as well as a support ability or two. Skipping the summons to myself become the tank would see me sacrifice offensive attributes or skill damage to instead look for healing or survival tools. In a race to kill that's not exactly brilliant.

In conclusion:


You have not established at all that going without summons is going to be suicidal.
Nor can anyone else, but estimates and experience from prior games point at the fact that they'll be advantageous at helping stay alive. The first 60 hardcore WD will have summons as part of his skillset - that's without a doubt.


You have not established at all that Mongrel/summon builds are going to be "overwhelmingly better," or anything close to it.
That's easier to defend. Stuff standing still is easier to kill, and nothing in the skillset does it better than summons. Even spells dedicated to holding enemies in place (grasp, wall) aren't 100% effective as a foe attacking a summon might be.


You have not established at all that we are being pigeon-holed into summon builds or that Mongrels or any other summon is going to be "overwhelmingly good."
That was more of a logical argument than anything else. I was questionning why so many skills were about summoning mongrels when one could've simply picked the skill itself. To me, that underlined that someone skipping the great utility of mongrels may have wanted an alternative way of benefiting from it. That just screasm "too good to skip entirely", but we will see.

In the meantime, see you in inferno!

[Soval]

Eight:
Your whole argument still hinges on that unsubstantiated claim that Mongrels will be such essential tanks and crowd stoppers that everyone would both want them and NEED them in order to survive. Your posts above have done nothing to back that up.

By your own logic then, Wizards are always going to NEED Mirror Images in play to tank for them or else they are going to get clobbered. Does that sound realistic to you?

[demasked]

How about you both establish that this petty "this char will always need this" is completely pointless until the game come out hmm?

On a similar sarcastic note, I'm pretty sure every Demon Hunter will need the 2 cute ferrets due to their hidden aoe damage of awesome lethality.

[ElementEight]

Eight:
Your whole argument still hinges on that unsubstantiated claim that Mongrels will be such essential tanks and crowd stoppers that everyone would both want them and NEED them in order to survive. Your posts above have done nothing to back that up.

I'll take the easy route out, this time, and use the reciprocal argument: You haven't proved that they won't be necessary. That's still well beyond my original point, though - the fact that a unique skill "that to summon mongrels", is made not-so-unique by multiple runes & passives.

http://youtu.be/3QFNkoa0qW8?t=1m49s

Does this exist for flavor? Wouldn't flavor instead dictate "create something completely new instead, don't rehash an ability into a passive"? I do not believe so.


By your own logic then, Wizards are always going to NEED Mirror Images in play to tank for them or else they are going to get clobbered. Does that sound realistic to you?

I doubt that mirror images are going to be anywhere near as tanky as mongrels. That's irrelevant, though, as the wizard possesses many more passive defenses (through armors & passive/traits), strait forward, hard hitting nukes and on the pinch low cooldown crowd controls. The doctor, on the other hand, works with gimmickier skills that have shorter range and effects over time. Given the gameplay difference, I wouldn't say that a wizard is going to need summons in order to stay alive.

It makes sense, really. Where the wizard would blast everything to bits before she could be reached, the WD would use slower but as deadly damage over time or gimmickier (plague of toads comes to mind) skills to efficiently deal with foes. Most if not all of the WD's skills make more sense if there's something between you and the bad guys, and if there's something to hold them in place. Which is why there are so many options to summon stuff in the first place.


How about you both establish that this petty "this char will always need this" is completely pointless until the game come out hmm?


Theorycrafting is something I enjoy doing - I have a website dedicated to it, but you're not going to visit it because you have free will. When I don't want to read an argument, I don't.

[Mage Slayer]

That's still well beyond my original point, though - the fact that a unique skill "that to summon mongrels", is made not-so-unique by multiple runes & passives.

I addressed this point before but it was overlooked, so I'll try again.

Yes, there are few ways to summon zombie dogs beyond having the zombie dog skill. There are DH skills other than Grenades that use granades. Teleport can be runed to give Mirror Images. Every single skill and every single rune variant don't have to be totally unique.

Zombie dogs are a signature of the WD and it's perfectly reasonable for the devs to offer a couple of ways of obtaining them, just like Wizards can get Disintegrate via Archon.

But the skill itself remains paramount for two very simple reasons (the same reasons Archon doesn't invalidate Disintegrate)

1) You need the base skill to be sure you can use it whenever you want.
2) You need the base skill in order to rune the skill.

[marshmallow]

I'll take the easy route out, this time, and use the reciprocal argument: You haven't proved that they won't be necessary.


Fallacious reasoning detected.

But why would dogs be required when the WD has the most CC of any character? See: Wall of Zombies, Grasp of the Dead, Horrify, Mass Confusion, and even Medusa Spiders slow enemies by 60% (though it doesn't say for how long). I wouldn't be surprised if dogs are the easiest, cookie cutteriest build though (unless they're like earlier versions of necro skellies that just melt on higher difficulties).

As for the question of why so many skills make dogs pop out I think it's to synergize with the sacrifice skill. Dogs have a cooldown of 60 secs, so you if you want to do a lot of damage with sacrifice you need other sources of dogs besides the skill itself. The build would look something like this. (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#bjQT!ebW!Zaaa)

Could work well because all the melee enemies would clump up to fight each other after you confuse them, then you cast Big Bad Voodoo over the action, then you start sacrificing dogs which could let more dogs out and continue into a giant chain reaction of explosions until everything is dead. The only question is if Big Bad Voodoo's "increase dmg of allies" counts for an exploding dog or not.

You could also maybe try to use the Gruesome Feast passive (+dmg from picking up globes) with other skills that increase the drop rate of globes (like a Golden in the dog skill).

[ElementEight]

But why would dogs be required when the WD has the most CC of any character? See: Wall of Zombies, Grasp of the Dead, Horrify, Mass Confusion, and even Medusa Spiders slow enemies by 60% (though it doesn't say for how long).

The issue I have with those is that they're either a) not hard cc's (ie fully incapacitating) or b) sport very long cooldowns. Both of these points are something that the non-summon counterpart, the wizard, does better, in addition to having more passive defensive skills to make up for the gaps.

Which makes sense, given that the WD has summons to fill the gaps (or, heck, in my mind, entirely take on the role of CC'ing).


I wouldn't be surprised if dogs are the easiest, cookie cutteriest build though (unless they're like earlier versions of necro skellies that just melt on higher difficulties).

I highly doubt they'll be anything like skeletons. Diablo 2's level 1 skills fared poorly the instant you left act 1, and really, that's just how the game was designed. D3, I'm fairly sure, has efforts being put in all skills being able to fulfil their role at all levels (though not in all situations); mongrels are tanks, and I'll be damned if they aren't inferno viable - I faintly remember hearing or reading about them being just fine for the job, though nowhere near as good as a bulky barb'.


As for the question of why so many skills make dogs pop out I think it's to synergize with the sacrifice skill.

Yes, I'm fully aware - but then, this really brings up the question as of why they would not simply have a lower cooldown on the skill itself, at the cost of summoning just one dog, rather than this unweildy version. What if you'd just like one more dog because just one died in duty? I just don't get this. Which is why I'm questionning the whole "slap dogs onto five more runes & passives!" thing in the first place.

Right now, it feels like no other skill can fulfil half of what summon zombie dog is able to; they take damage for you and keep foes in place for as long as they can live, as well as deal bits of extra damage (or loads, if you blow them up!). Doesn't anyone else feel that this is just too good to skip, making the assumption that they'll be inferno viable, of course? This is what I really mean by being pigeon holed.

That's been a recurring issue in a couple of games, really; you either get very strong summons which overshadow many if not all cc, defensive (or even, in extreme cases) dps skills, or you get very weak summons which just aren't worth investing in. A RPG project in which I participated in creating & testing faced us with a problematic necromancer that had such issues; in one iteration, skeletons were able to tank bosses, and in another, they'd die too quickly to be of use. We eventually opted to simply get rid of them. Another alternative could have been to make them very strong, but sport a duration.

[Scorch Hellfire]

I'm merely finding it really strange that they're including so many ways of summoning mongrels themselves. It really hurts the uniqueness (as much as it is) of the original skill itself. That was my argument at the roots.

Well, obviously the devs don't care if the skill is unique... in fact, that is probably why they changed the skill from being an individual dog summoned with no cooldown to 3 at once with a cooldown... it makes it the clear best way of getting zombie dogs without allowing you to spam it and the passives and runes are just meant to supplement it (these passives and runes are the only way to have 4 out at once if you can only ever summon 3 with the skill) or add a bonus source of damage and tanking for those that choose to opt out of the main skill... by the way...


Yes, I'm fully aware - but then, this really brings up the question as of why they would not simply have a lower cooldown on the skill itself, at the cost of summoning just one dog, rather than this unweildy version. What if you'd just like one more dog because just one died in duty? I just don't get this. Which is why I'm questionning the whole "slap dogs onto five more runes & passives!" thing in the first place.

Right now, it feels like no other skill can fulfil half of what summon zombie dog is able to; they take damage for you and keep foes in place for as long as they can live, as well as deal bits of extra damage (or loads, if you blow them up!). Doesn't anyone else feel that this is just too good to skip, making the assumption that they'll be inferno viable, of course? This is what I really mean by being pigeon holed.

You kinda just answered your own question... if they had left them as individually summoned with no cooldown as they were in the original gameplay video then the skill by itself would be overpowered if you could always have them out no matter what even if they died shortly after being summoned (just as being able to have them inheret bonus damage from hitting them with other skills was also probably deemed too good)... Cooldowns are a balancing tool and obviously they didn't want to hinder people in having the max amount of dogs out at once by making it an individaul summon with a cooldown and they didn't want to hurt those that just wanted them for tanking by having a duration on top of the cooldown so they made them last as long as they are healed... and if you want more dogs and/or more ways to get them without relying solely on the skill with a cooldown then you can get the passives and rune effects that allow that... If you really have that much of an issue about how Blizzard has decided to design the WD then bring it up to them on their forums instead of endlessly complaining on a fan site...

[ElementEight]

You kinda just answered your own question... if they had left them as individually summoned with no cooldown as they were in the original gameplay video then the skill by itself would be overpowered if you could always have them out no matter what even if they died shortly after being summoned (just as being able to have them inheret bonus damage from hitting them with other skills was also probably deemed too good)... Cooldowns are a balancing tool and obviously they didn't want to hinder people in having the max amount of dogs out at once by making it an individaul summon with a cooldown and they didn't want to hurt those that just wanted them for tanking by having a duration on top of the cooldown so they made them last as long as they are healed... and if you want more dogs and/or more ways to get them without relying solely on the skill with a cooldown then you can get the passives and rune effects that allow that...

The idea of having a cooldown as a balancing factor is contradicted by the fact that there are other summoning skills to fulfil the role of the zombie dogs (the Gargantuan, who is, strangely enough, likely better at tanking (at least, against aoe), and has a shorter cooldown (!!)) as well as, of course, Circle of Life and Fetish Sycophants.


If you really have that much of an issue about how Blizzard has decided to design the WD then bring it up to them on their forums instead of endlessly complaining on a fan site...

You mean, like this thread?: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3595678104

I'm sorry you feel that this is complaining when, clearly, this information could be useful for anyone looking to build a WD, and could potentially improve the quality of the game as my arguements shape over time. I wouldn't want to see every WD run around with zombie dogs or summons, but they feel so overwhelmingly good that they feel mandatory over viable.

[Soval]

Another way to look at the reason they added those runes and passives that generate additional Dogs is that the Devs have explicitly stated that they do not want to replicate the Necro's passive style of play --hiding safely behind a wall of flesh where he can cast spells on his opponents with little fear of getting hurt, or simply letting his minions do all his dirty work for him. Instead, most of the Witch Doctor's summoning spells are temporary, non-tanking creatures used to damage and/or debuff, and his Skellie equivalents are quite limited in their number and not as easily resummoned, strongly reducing their potential as tanks.

You can get more tanking (numbers, resummoning, HP) out of your Mongrels, but in order to do so you must choose some very specific passives and runes in order to do so, thus limiting the flexibility of your build. This tells me that in their normal form, Dogs are not going to be super effective as a meat-shield, that these other sources to summon them were created precisely because Mongrels are not a convenient safety shield for a laid back summoner.

The Devs seemed to think that Mongrels could be a lot more flexible than the initial Summon Zombie Dog skill by itself allowed, and gave players some trading-off options to make them more effective, if the players so choose.