PDA

View Full Version : Mathematical Analysis Policy?

Strill
21-09-2011, 11:12
Is it acceptable to include calculated summaries of skill effects on skill pages? For example, Hungering Arrow has a 60% pierce chance. That means it hits an average of 2.5 times. Therefore, you could say that on average, it deals 140% * 2.5 = 350% Weapon Damage. You could also do similar calculations for all the other Hungering Arrow runes except Alabaster, since none of them apart from Alabaster deal AoE damage.

Would it be acceptable to include the calculated average weapon damage in the page for Hungering Arrow? I understand this kind of analysis isn't possible in some cases without extensive guesswork, (like Alabaster Rune). However, in some cases it's just single-target damage for each of them so they should be directly comparable.

For the conversion from Pierce Chance to number of hits:

Number of hits
= infinite sum of 0.6^n from n=0 to infinity
= 1 + 0.6 /( 1 - 0.6)
= 2.5

TheWanderer
21-09-2011, 14:44
I answered this on the talk page, but others can give their opinion.
BTW can you explain that calculation? :)

grapz
21-09-2011, 19:30
I answered on the talk too first, but I'll post it here too, and then someone can decide where it should be (either here, or on Hungering Arrows talk page?):

I think it could be useful to have the formula for skill damage on the skill, but I'm not sure this skill is a good candidate for calculations. According to the last info on the official forums (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3123248970#8), it'll only hit targets in a straight line behind the original target. So in order to get a damage bonus, there are two conditions that has to be in place:

1. You need to get the piercing effect to trigger
2. You need to have a target in line with you and the target behind the target.
Then, and only then, you'll get an increased damage bonus. So this skills has a requirement that isn't just numbers, and thus, in my opinion it'd be wrong to say that this skill averages on 350% Weapon Damage, because it don't.
There are also some reports that when it pierces the first target, it'll apply the damage to that target again, giving it a total of 280%, but I'm not too sure about that until I see some hard proof, but that's just me.
All in all, calculations and numbers are sweet, as long as there aren't too many if/then involved in the calculation.

Strill
22-09-2011, 04:12
I answered on the talk too first, but I'll post it here too, and then someone can decide where it should be (either here, or on Hungering Arrows talk page?):

I think it could be useful to have the formula for skill damage on the skill, but I'm not sure this skill is a good candidate for calculations. According to the last info on the official forums (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3123248970#8), it'll only hit targets in a straight line behind the original target. So in order to get a damage bonus, there are two conditions that has to be in place:

1. You need to get the piercing effect to trigger
2. You need to have a target in line with you and the target behind the target.
Then, and only then, you'll get an increased damage bonus. So this skills has a requirement that isn't just numbers, and thus, in my opinion it'd be wrong to say that this skill averages on 350% Weapon Damage, because it don't.
There are also some reports that when it pierces the first target, it'll apply the damage to that target again, giving it a total of 280%, but I'm not too sure about that until I see some hard proof, but that's just me.
All in all, calculations and numbers are sweet, as long as there aren't too many if/then involved in the calculation.

The person you quoted is contradicted by a previous poster in the same thread, and by my own observations.

3. Yes - it also has a 50% chance to pierce the target so if it's one target, it can piece it, and come back around and hit it again.

You can also check this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzTv2rBoSYc&feature=player_detailpage#t=2m10s). At 2:11 Hungering Arrow pierces a zombie at the top of the screen and at 2:12 it turns around and attacks it again.

I answered this on the talk page, but others can give their opinion.
BTW can you explain that calculation? :)

You have a 100% chance to hit once plus a 95% chance to hit again plus a 95%^2 chance to hit again plus a 95%^3 chance to hit again...

On to infinity. It comes out to 20 hits on average.

------------------------

Oh, and now that I've had the chance to think about Alabaster rune, I realize it would come out to:

infinite sum ( k=0 to infinity) (pierce%)^k*(140%Single + crit%*240%AoE)
= 140% / (1 - pierce%) single target damage
+ 240% * crit% / (1 - pierce%) AoE damage
= 350% Single target damage
+ 600%*crit% AoE damage

So you'll deal 2.5 hits on average just like normal Hungering Arrow, except now you'll get 2.5 * crit% AoE explosions on average. With 100% crit, that's quite comparable to Golden and Indigo. Just three targets per AoE comes out to 2150% Weapon damage.

TheWanderer
22-09-2011, 07:10
Oh, an infinite series. Got it.:thumbup:

Strill
22-09-2011, 19:04
Ok so since the response seems to be positive in general, but this specific case is controversial, how about another example.

The Demon Hunter Perfectionist passive gives -20% Discipline usage.

Mathematically, this makes each point of discipline 25% more effective. In turn, you could think of that as +25% Max Discipline and +25% Discipline restoration. Personally I find it easier to think in terms of max discipline and discipline regen rather than a cost reduction.

I propose this mainly because I've seen several people on the official forums complain that there is no Discipline regen passive when in fact Perfectionist does the mathematical equivalent.

Reasoning:
Vault costs 10 Discipline.
Perfectionist reduces the cost by 20%, down to 8 Discipline.
10 Discipline is 25% greater than 8 Discipline.
Therefore, Perfectionist allows your Discipline to accomplish 25% more.
"your Discipline" encompasses the Discipline you start with, and any Discipline you restore.
The Discipline you start with is your max Discipline. The Discipline you restore is your Discipline regeneration.
Therefore, Perfectionist is equivalent to +25% Max Discipline and +25% Discipline restoration.