View Full Version : why so much DH hate?
fludDAstud
17-09-2011, 12:58
So I really don't see what all the fuss is about. I don't understand why so many people are complaining about this class? do they not know how to play a ranged class?
The demon hunter is one of my most powerful level 12 characters and is one of the most fun to play. This class isn't about huge damage, its about being agile and getting around your enemy so you can get 4 or 5 shots off before they get close to you. It actually takes some sort of skill to play, and if blizz is going to cater to the people that cant handle it(they are changing the DH around, read the front page of this site) what other nerfs are going to happen to these classes?
They aren't changing the nature of the class, they are just rearranging the skills so you get a more appropriate mix at the early levels and fixing up the resource curve.
yovargas
17-09-2011, 13:14
I love her skills, the DH is my #1 right now, but I think the "hate" is mostly not coming from lack of power but people not digging her "theme". Grenades and rockets and heels and unused shadow powers are pretty bothersome to many. Add the low number of traps and the odd balance between Hate/Discipline and she does start to look problematic. I think she's great (though I do think the grenades/rockets/dual-wielding stuff is dumb) but there's definitely room for improvement.
fludDAstud
17-09-2011, 13:24
They aren't changing the nature of the class, they are just rearranging the skills so you get a more appropriate mix at the early levels and fixing up the resource curve.
i understand that but there isnt really a problem with the skills right now
fludDAstud
17-09-2011, 13:30
i guess this is more of a preference thing, I think the DH is great the way she is because it adds a nice challenge compared to classes like the wizard where i can walk in and use one skill and kill everything
RiddleOfSteel
17-09-2011, 13:32
I personally found myself snoozing during DH videos. Bola shot was the only interesting skill she had IMHO. The rest was just...boring. I expected more.
Crackseed
17-09-2011, 13:45
Well I think that's the issue Riddle - she gets alot of her utility early on and her awesome "flashy" skills like Multishot/Strafe/Rapid Fire/Rain of V all come in much later, compared to the Wizard getting Disintegrate early, yada yada.
And it also sounds like the resource balance is off so they want to adjust that too. It seems like Hatred is in a good spot but Disc might be off? Dunno.
Has not changed my character choice one bit :) Going DH no matter what \o/
Watching something and playing something are completely different. I think a lot of people are just watching looking for amazing visuals etc. but when they get their hands on a given class many people will be changing their minds since playstyle will play the biggest role.
fludDAstud
17-09-2011, 13:51
Watching something and playing something are completely different. I think a lot of people are just watching looking for amazing visuals etc. but when they get their hands on a given class many people will be changing their minds since playstyle will play the biggest role.
+1 to you sir, if people knew how to play the class you wouldnt get boring feeds of the people playing! I should just do a video showing how the class should be played! I didn't think I would like the monk as much as I do until I actually played the character so what you say is 100% true!
The problem I see with the DH is that the class has a reliance on discipline to get maneuverability. Being that discipline seems like the slowest naturally regenerating resource in the game this is problematic. I've seen the monk jump around like crazy with those dash abilities but I don't see DH's jumping around in the same way. When I play a DH I want to be able to jump in to close range use my closer range abilities to take out the easier mobs then jump out and attack stronger ones with my long range abilities. At the moment I think you can use the DH little dash move three times before you run out of discipline and that just doesn't seem like enough.
The thing I don't like about the DH are the grenades and everything regarding explosives. Personally for me, it doesn't fit in the World of Diablo.
I would have liked to see the DH as an agile & swift rogue bow/dagger class.
Insane bow/crossbow damage from afar and if you would like to get personal with monsters hit a skill like the monk has to 'port' to mobs and backstab them or something similar with dagger / dual daggers.
What I've seen so far from the beta footage, the DH in this early stage of the game, seems pretty boring when compared to the footage I've seen from the other classes. Maybe the higher tier skills are more flashy and rogue like, one can only hope so.
Now I'm all for the monk after I've seen what he's capable of. Dashing from group to group and ripping it up, that's what the A in ARPG is all about.
Threepwood
17-09-2011, 14:55
This is just an impression I got, and not based on any real data, but I feel like most of the demon hunter's skills are lacking. Many of them are difficult to use in some way, due to random scatter, delayed effect, strange pathing, and yet still have somewhat lackluster damage. I mean I expect some balance between usability and damage, and it feels (again, just an impression) like DH skills are on the bottom end of the spectrum for both.
AlabasterFilth
17-09-2011, 15:17
I've played with all classes, here's my take on DH:
-not enough AOE. Barb has cleave, Wizard has, well, everything, Monk has Crippling Wave, and Witch Doctor has frogs & bats. The DH's AOE isn't very effective. Grenades doesn't do enough damage, Fan of Knive's range is too short, Bola is pretty good but has a delay and a very small range. Chakram is the best AOE skill the DH gets by the time she caps at 13, but the trajectory on it is really funky and hard to do a lot of damage with.
-No way to regen hatred until level 12 (Vengeance passive skill). This is big, since all of her good damage-dealing skills rely on using hatred. Wizard has the same problem, but his spells are so powerful they don't need to be spammed to be effective. I was always hate-starved while playing the DH.
-none of her pre-lvl14 discipline skills do any damage at all. This means you have to use hatred-based skills to do damage, leading more to constantly having an empty hatred orb.
I'm sure she's a good character, but in the beta, where you can only go to level 13, and the monsters only go up to level 8 or 9, the best characters are those that can efficiently kill large groups. DH can't do that even at level 13. This is probably where most of the hate comes from; the DH is the weakest character in the early levels.
fludDAstud
17-09-2011, 15:20
I've played with all classes, here's my take on DH:
-not enough AOE. Barb has cleave, Wizard has, well, everything, Monk has Crippling Wave, and Witch Doctor has frogs & bats. The DH's AOE isn't very effective. Grenades doesn't do enough damage, Fan of Knive's range is too short, Bola is pretty good but has a delay and a very small range. Chakram is the best AOE skill the DH gets by the time she caps at 13, but the trajectory on it is really funky and hard to do a lot of damage with.
-No way to regen hatred until level 12 (Vengeance passive skill). This is big, since all of her good damage-dealing skills rely on using hatred. Wizard has the same problem, but his spells are so powerful they don't need to be spammed to be effective. I was always hate-starved while playing the DH.
-none of her pre-lvl14 discipline skills do any damage at all. This means you have to use hatred-based skills to do damage, leading more to constantly having an empty hatred orb.
I'm sure she's a good character, but in the beta, where you can only go to level 13, and the monsters only go up to level 8 or 9, the best characters are those that can efficiently kill large groups. DH can't do that even at level 13. This is probably where most of the hate comes from; the DH is the weakest character in the early levels.
I completely agree with this, I just dont think they need to rush into changing around skills to "balance" it out in early levels...wait until people get their hands on high level DH then change stuff. I dont see the harm in making people actually play instead of just flying through everything!
JustAnotherOldGeezer
17-09-2011, 15:27
it's because we're all just watching other players play at this point
DH: fire off arrows and evade mobs (snooze)
Barb: big guy smacking things across the screen
Monk: quickly dishing out combo damage, bolting from mob to mob
Wiz: pew pew pretty spells
WD: slimy spells and firebats are coolio
As others mentioned, I'm sure DH is really fun to play, but to watch? not so much.
If the demon hunter feels underwhelming in the lower levels, than it will be played less than the other classes. Some people might want this; it lets them feel like a special snowflake.
Well I am against snowflakes in Diablo! Snowflakes are pretty and sparkly, and do not fit into the dark, gritty Diablo universe.
What's ridiculous is lack of weapon damage scaling on FoK, Nades, and Chakram.
Siege Valgore
17-09-2011, 15:51
Barbarian will be my first, like always, with the DH VERY close behind. I am stoked to make a bad *** looking DH. Already got the name picked out :)
cacophony
17-09-2011, 17:05
What's ridiculous is lack of weapon damage scaling on FoK, Nades, and Chakram.
This. Traps too.
FluffyTheFluffer
17-09-2011, 17:35
The whole concept is a little ridiculous - not really the TL vanquisher, not really an assassin. It clearly is supposed to be a gun class, but it can't be - we have lasers and autotargeting sentries and grenades in sanctuary, but the technology to put a pinch of gunpowder behind a little bit of metal is just too advanced.
The problem I see with the DH is that the class has a reliance on discipline to get maneuverability. Being that discipline seems like the slowest naturally regenerating resource in the game this is problematic. I've seen the monk jump around like crazy with those dash abilities but I don't see DH's jumping around in the same way. When I play a DH I want to be able to jump in to close range use my closer range abilities to take out the easier mobs then jump out and attack stronger ones with my long range abilities. At the moment I think you can use the DH little dash move three times before you run out of discipline and that just doesn't seem like enough.
If you put a golden runestone in the demon hunterīs vault skill you get 80% reduction cost if you use it within 5 sec, so eventually he will be able to kite a lot if thatīs your strategy. I think he will kick a lot more *** than people think.
yovargas
17-09-2011, 18:07
What's ridiculous is lack of weapon damage scaling on FoK, Nades, and Chakram.
Why is this a problem? Every character except the Barb has some attacks that aren't weapon based. So what?
cacophony
17-09-2011, 18:37
Why is this a problem? Every character except the Barb has some attacks that aren't weapon based. So what?
B/c those non-weapon based skills are always going to be lagging behind the weapon scaled skills. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the weapon damage scalar is for BASE damage of the skill, before you factor in the attack stat or other buffs. Wiz/Docs have a "raise base damage of spells by X%" mod on their weapons that do a similar thing. Hunters using grenades, chakram, knives, etc, DO NOT have this mod. Their base damage for these skills will always be fixed. Sure, you raise the damage of the skills w/ attack or whatever, but you're always lagging behind the weapon skills, the skills where you can raise your base damage.
yovargas
17-09-2011, 18:50
We don't know the DH and Monk won't have items that increase damage spells but even if they don't, that doesn't seem like a problem that couldn't be easily addressed by however they balance the numbers. Remember, spells scale with your level so they can simply balance them so that their dmg numbers keep up. For all we know, Grenades or Wave of Light could scale to be hugely overpowered. Or not.
cacophony
17-09-2011, 19:40
We don't know the DH and Monk won't have items that increase damage spells but even if they don't, that doesn't seem like a problem that couldn't be easily addressed by however they balance the numbers. Remember, spells scale with your level so they can simply balance them so that their dmg numbers keep up. For all we know, Grenades or Wave of Light could scale to be hugely overpowered. Or not.
If that were the case, monks and hunters would need to juggle two types of weapon stats. Plain old weapon damage (most of their skills) and "monk/hunter" damage. Does this monk/hunter damage stat boost regular weapon skills? Then you haven't solved anything. If the special stat doesn't affect weapon skills, then you're splitting up the builds very dramatically, to the point that it will be tough to mix in regular weapon skills w/ "special stat" skills in a single build, assuming they don't just dump massive weapon damage and special damage on the same weapon. It's not a very elegant system. It's much easier, intuitive, simpler to balance if you keep everything on weapon damage.
As for the scaling at high levels, that's the point. The BASE damage is fixed. It's small, and there's nothing you can do to increase that base damage. Considering the attack stat and various buff effects are all percentage based, upping the base damage is HUGE. Weapon skills and wiz/doc weapon mods raise that base damage. One screen showed a level 60 barb where attack raised damage by 500% or something ridiculous. Adding ONE point to your base damage adds 5 points to a skill. That's why weapons are always so important. The new wiz/doc weapon mods make the casters care as much about their weapons as fighters do.
Long story short, EVERY damage skill needs some way to increase the base damage w/ gear (so far, exclusively weapon slots) in order to stay competitive w/ other skills. The fact that grenades couldn't do that made them lousy at higher levels.
stillman
17-09-2011, 20:18
It's some of the DH ideas that don't appeal to me much, due to redundancy. He/she is essentially an overconfident goth kid going through Erickson's identity vs identity confusion stage (doesn't the Wizard already do this?) w/ the exact same revenge motivations as the Barbarian. Is there really much difference conceptually between Hate and Fury? The Barbarian does this all so much better, since he has lost his entire culture, sacred burial place, etc. The DH didn't lose near as much, and it's harder to take angry teens seriously, imo.
As for "no guns..." They're guns, lol. They make gunshot sounds, have gun discharge and recoil, and explosives obviously exist. It's like me taking a shotgun and simply calling it magical slingshot.
Am I the only one who entered the thread expecting a resource discussion?
it's because we're all just watching other players play at this point
DH: fire off arrows and evade mobs (snooze)
Barb: big guy smacking things across the screen
Monk: quickly dishing out combo damage, bolting from mob to mob
Wiz: pew pew pretty spells
WD: slimy spells and firebats are coolio
As others mentioned, I'm sure DH is really fun to play, but to watch? not so much.
I've only watched one gameplay vid so far(I know, I'm way behind on the times here :P) and it happened to be a DH vid. Personally, I thought it looked more interesting than most of the builds in D2. Having nothing to compare it to, I thought it looked great. From what I've read, they just need to balance out the skills so that some use hatred and some use discipline in the early levels. For all I know though, the DH looks incredibly boring compared to the others. :P
Why is this a problem? Every character except the Barb has some attacks that aren't weapon based. So what?
Wizard and Witch Doctors have class exclusive % scaling spell damage boosters.
Monk is almost entirely weapon scaling with a few abilities that have flat holy damage type. It is reasonable to presume that Holy Damage does not have a resistance associated with it, so it might actually have some measure of significant scaling, however non-standard.
Grenades...? Why the hell would you use grenades late game? Unless attack affects all abilities differently, it will lag behind massively due to complete lack of synergizing mechanisms.
Why is this a problem? Every character except the Barb has some attacks that aren't weapon based. So what?
The problem is that these skills aren't going to scale with gear. Pretty big problem considering these are most of her AoE skills.
I dislike this class personally, not just because it looks profoundly boring, but also because I think it just doesn't fit. A streetwalker in patent leather, slutheels, dual wielding crossbows like Kate Beckinsale, and a male version that looks like he works at Hot Topic... it just doesn't feel like Diablo to me. I would've liked to see them go in their original direction for a ranged character, but I suppose it wasn't sexy enough. Just my personal preference though; I know plenty of people love it the way it is. They at least need to do something about the skills and resource, though.
yovargas
17-09-2011, 22:05
Wizard and Witch Doctors have class exclusive % scaling spell damage boosters.
It seems fairly likely to me that pistol xbows and fist weapons could easily have +%spell modifiers too.
Monk is almost entirely weapon scaling with a few abilities that have flat holy damage type. It is reasonable to presume that Holy Damage does not have a resistance associated with it, so it might actually have some measure of significant scaling, however non-standard.
That's an odd assumption...but even if true, I don't see how it would make Wave of Light or Decoy's flat damage (plus those on several others runed skills) okay but the Grenade's "useless"?
Rockets... I don't think rockets have a place in the D3 world. Sanctuary is not supposed to be a steampunk world like WoW. I am okay with low tech things like grenades and firebombs, but guided rockets seem a tad over the top for me. Magic is supposed to be the world's technology. It is almost like Blizzard was trying to think of ways to make her skills cool and they ran out of good ideas then someone said, "I know... Let's give her ROCKETS! Everyone loves ROCKETS! Their cool!" Personally, I would be more okay with rainbows and flying unicorn mounts.
yovargas
17-09-2011, 22:27
PS - I just checked and if I didn't miss anything, right now, when counting runes, the DH has 6 skills with flat dmg compared to the Monk's 10.
That's an odd assumption...but even if true, I don't see how it would make Wave of Light or Decoy's flat damage (plus those on several others runed skills) okay but the Grenade's "useless"?
Because ignoring resists is actually a very strong damage multiplier. We don't know what are the armor/resist attributes of end-game enemies or whenever Holy truly does ignore resists, though. (I base this off lack of holy damage reduction of any kind on affixes we know off; plus it would make sense thematically.)
It seems fairly likely to me that pistol xbows and fist weapons could easily have +%spell modifiers too.
Except, no. Those have been simplified into +Wizard damage and +WD damage.
Its basic scaling math, really. Everyone benefits from % Attack, so its a wash. Physical classes largely benefit from upping weapon damage because their skills are % multipliers of damage. Caster classes largely benefit from upping +% spell damage because their skills are flat bases.
If you fail to supply both base damage and this additional multiplier, the nuke will be outscaled unless it is ridiculously frontloaded in damage so that theoretical maximum scaling point for other nukes matches to it. Do you really think Grenades and Chakram will be balanced off the assumption that they hit as if they are supplied with kitted out Inferno Grade base weapon or spell dmg %?
yovargas
17-09-2011, 23:09
Thing is, they put in the +Wizard damage and +WD damage mods to make those 2 as item dependent as the other chars but you don't need those mods to make flat-dmg skills useful at high levels, all you need to make flat-dmg skills useful is lvl-based scaling which is already in the game. So if the Wiz gets +dmg mods and the DH doesn't, then the DH's base simply needs to be higher. If the avg lvl 60 Wiz gets a 500% boost from Attack & gear, a skill that does 50 dmg will do 2500. If the avg lvl 60 DH only gets a 250% boost from Attack, then a base skill with 100 dmg will also do 2500. So you can get the exact same result in the end if you want to. You just play with the numbers however you need to.
Actually, you do need those mods. That's the reason they were introduced - to equalize melee and caster scaling. A melee class with a crap weapon will do very little damage. A caster class with crap spell damage % will do very little damage.
So you can't really just have "different base damage" because a Wizard will apply 2 multipliers to spell damage while the DH will only get to apply one. If you try to equalize them around the difference in multiplier count by giving DH higher base damage, DHs will be the new "who needs gear?" classes.
yovargas
17-09-2011, 23:39
If you try to equalize them around the difference in multiplier count by giving DH higher base damage, DHs will be the new "who needs gear?" classes.
(The DH and Monk, you mean.) This would be the real concern, but that makes these potentially too useful, not useless. Which is why I expect that there will be mods affecting them a la Wiz/WD. Not really sure why you seem so confident there wouldn't be.
out of all the classes DH is zzzzzz
I stand by my Monk assumption. I think that having a low base damage, resistance ignoring attack is a nice way to differentiate them from other classes spell damage wise.
Not really sure why you seem so confident there wouldn't be.
They are weapon based classes. Giving them a third damage multiplier will cause its own slew of problems because now they are suddenly the guys who can scale off attack, weapon damage, and a specific class damage multiplier.
Theoretically possible to balance. Practically, unnecessary and overly complicated. The whole purpose of streamlining the attribute system was to minimize the the damage of having different damage scaling mechanisms.
The Monk has one skill that isn't based on weapon damage - Wave of Light (three if you count Mystic Ally and Lethal Decoy). The other three classes have similar numbers, with the Demon Hunter being the exception. The point is the vast majority of skills for all other classes have some type of multiplier; be it from weapon damage or spell power. It's obvious the Demon Hunter needs something like this in order for skills to scale with gear. Otherwise damage will either be too low, fairly independent of gear, or wonky because it's based off some strange multiplier.
cacophony
18-09-2011, 02:38
I also want non-arrow skills to scale w/ weapon damage so I can run around w/ swords/daggers and be a fracking ninja.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#WcVgUd!cUa!aZYbYb
mrocktor
18-09-2011, 03:34
Am I the only one who entered the thread expecting a resource discussion?
The DH resource system is incredibly clumsy and I'm sad they are committed to it. There, someone had to say it...
There are good dual resource systems (WoW rogue, for instance). This is not one of them.
yovargas
18-09-2011, 04:12
The Monk has one skill that isn't based on weapon damage - Wave of Light (three if you count Mystic Ally and Lethal Decoy).
As I said earlier, if you go threw his runes, right now, the Monk has 10, four more than the DH.
JumpyMonkey
18-09-2011, 04:48
As I said earlier, if you go threw his runes, right now, the Monk has 10, four more than the DH.
You didn't really do an accurate count considering all the runestones for 4 of the demon hunter skills would count (with the exception of 1 for fan of knives). (Grenades, FoK, Spike Trap, Chakram; i didn't count the companion pet)
That would put DH well over 20...and you also consider one of Wave of Light's runestones changes it to weapon damage as well.
out of all the classes DH is zzzzzz
Perhaps the monk will keep you awake with his bell skill. Ding dong. Are you awake now? :d
I also want non-arrow skills to scale w/ weapon damage so I can run around w/ swords/daggers and be a fracking ninja.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#WcVgUd!cUa!aZYbYb
with indigo runestone fan of knives will do 85% weapon dmg to 8 additional targets, which sounds pretty awesome to me.
I think grenades are meant to be used for tactical purposes mainly, which is why you stun or knock enemies back et cetera. I agree this skill particular looks weak and could use a buff.
However I am not so sure about the trap skills. They seem very potent to me, but time will tell how they will be in inferno i guess.
I also wonder if the companionīs dmg is related to weapon dmg or if itīs a fixed dmg.
TheHolyGrail
19-09-2011, 15:14
When you compare how immense some of the early skills are for the other classes, how much fun and how awesome they are, this is the only area DH falls short, and at that, just the ordering of the skill unlocks. Not so much of a problem there.
The lore VS gameplay debate... well in my mind, Blizzard are always going to put gameplay first.
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