View Full Version : Torchlight 2 - Play it however you like
Online, offline, lan you name it you can play it the way you want. How many will not complain about always being online. I sense no double standard at all because this is how it should be.
xManiaCCCx
12-08-2011, 19:40
Except online mode will be unplayable and you know it. It will be basically open battle.net.
We will see how successful they will be with it. I wish them best though.
It won't be as wildly popular, which lessens the likelihood of it being completely destroyed by hackers, so yeah it will be fine.
ThulRasha
12-08-2011, 19:46
There won't be any competition online, since everyone can just mod in the best equipment.
TL2 is supposed to be played with friends, not with strangers. I probably won't play it online, but will play it in lan.
xManiaCCCx
12-08-2011, 19:49
TL2 is supposed to be played with friends, not with strangers. I probably won't play it online, but will play it in lan.
I will play it offline when I wont have internet access and play Diablo 3 with friends or when I will be at home.. I think it's perfect. TL2 will be my APRG fix.but not main game.
But of course, never say never. I was big fan of TL1 ..but when it was released, it was fun for week or two. So I am a bit sceptical now.
Apples and oranges at this point....
ya will be fun with friends - oh well would like a AH and server side play ...
but cant have it all.
I am looking forward to this game.
Reminds me of dungeon siege - remember that one - could playonline and was fun for a bit; but then I think people started to hack and then bleh.
Panopticon
12-08-2011, 19:59
Who cares?
This is the Diablo 3 forum pal. Not the 'let's try an rip on D3 based on what other games are doing' forum.
kanzakii
12-08-2011, 19:59
I think I'll play TL2 as well, if it is released before Diablo 3. (Or released before Diablo 3 has a official release date).
Otherwise I'll play Diablo 3.. or Guild Wars 2 if Diablo 3 is delayed again.
Who cares?
This is the Diablo 3 forum pal. Not the 'let's try an rip on D3 based on what other games are doing' forum.
Yeah, I agree with this... as I've said to several other people why are you here if the online only status of Diablo 3 is such a problem to you?
Now you can go to the TL2 forums and moan about Diablo 3 there. It's a ridiculous question to pose, but if you had to have one OR THE OTHER, which would you choose? IMHO (<-- notice, IMHO) Diablo 3 is going to be more successful because it's going to be a much better game.
Can't say I like the sound of TL2's online play. They basically said they aren't going to fight cheating in any way. Sounds like D1's online play.
I remember playing once where some guy just ran up and gave me all this stuff for my brand new character. Just crazy uber gear that had no requirements whatsoever so my level 1 guy just got decked out right away. It was awesome for a few seconds and then disappointing because there wasn't any challenge left and no reason to hunt for better gear.
Yeah, I agree with this... as I've said to several other people why are you here if the online only status of Diablo 3 is such a problem to you?
Now you can go to the TL2 forums and moan about Diablo 3 there. It's a ridiculous question to pose, but if you had to have one OR THE OTHER, which would you choose? IMHO (<-- notice, IMHO) Diablo 3 is going to be more successful because it's going to be a much better game.
Diablo 3 will be all about the popularity Blizzard North worked hard to create. So I also guess we can erase all the path of exile threads and grim dawn ones too we have had too just because somoene wants to make a point. Well I'm making a point as well. Torchlight 2 done the right way a action rpg should be done.
ThulRasha
12-08-2011, 20:17
@Zeek:
Yeah, that's what cheating usually does. Best way to stop your addiction :p
kanzakii
12-08-2011, 20:20
Diablo 3 will be all about the popularity Blizzard North worked hard to create. So I also guess we can erase all the path of exile threads and grim dawn ones too we have had too just because somoene wants to make a point. Well I'm making a point as well. Torchlight 2 done the right way a action rpg should be done.
The point is though TL2 will be mainly a single player/multiplayer with friend/modded with friends game, and you can't playing it with strangers. And you're right, in single player, you are allowed to do whatever you want. But don't count on fair play if you are just going to join random games.
Diablo 3 will be all about the popularity Blizzard North worked hard to create. So I also guess we can erase all the path of exile threads and grim dawn ones too we have had too just because somoene wants to make a point. Well I'm making a point as well. Torchlight 2 done the right way a action rpg should be done.
Personally I love the look of Grim Dawn, but not PoE and certainly not TL2.
It would be awesome if Blizzard could come up with some statistics to demonstrate what percentage of users only ever played D2 offline. My guess is that they might have done this, realised that even more people are online now, and decided they didn't care about such a diminishing proportion of gamers when taking into account how much cheating/hacking they could prevent.
Also, PoE is online only, so...
I red an interview of the TL2 game designer, he was saying that they arent going for a cheat/hack free environment and that they think blizzard did the right thing about online-only since its one of their main goal.
So I guess even the makers of TL2 dont agree with your statement.
I'm gonna play TL2 until D3 comes out or when I'm traveling, it's gonna be a very fun game but it has nothing on D3's campaign or it's character customization.
Wolfpaq777
12-08-2011, 21:45
Step 1: Implement TL2 dota mod.
Step 2: Grows wildly in popularity like every other dota rip off, inexplicably.
Step 3: Implement backdoor that grants you god mode.
Step 4: ???
Step 5: PROFIT!
Torchlight 2 currently has like 20 classes with all the mods and it doesnt even have multiplayer, torchlight 3 has many improvements as well as makes it easier to create classes. So ya, you could say torchlight 2 has a little bit more customization.
ThulRasha
12-08-2011, 21:53
Torchlight 2 currently has like 20 classes with all the mods and it doesnt even have multiplayer, torchlight 3 has many improvements as well as makes it easier to create classes. So ya, you could say torchlight 2 has a little bit more customization.
There is no Torchlight 3. Torchlight 2 (unmodded) will have 4 classes. Torchlight 1 had 3 classes (unmodded).
TobiasAmaranth
12-08-2011, 22:48
My complaint about Torchlight is that the ability to mod undermines any -actual- content. My loot is now worthless, the characters now insignificant, etc. That's how I view it, and that's why the online-only high-security heavy-balance nature of D3 is something that entices me.
marshmallow
12-08-2011, 22:53
My complaint about Torchlight is that the ability to mod undermines any -actual- content.
Just like Diablo 1 and 2, right? I'm sure the existence of the Diablo 2 Median mod made you feel bad. Even though it was better than vanilla LoD.
The only problem with Torchlight is that it's Torchlight. They're going to have to advance all their systems and especially level design by leaps and bounds because the first one was really watered down and got boring fast.
Wolfpaq777
12-08-2011, 23:03
My complaint about Torchlight is that the ability to mod undermines any -actual- content. My loot is now worthless, the characters now insignificant, etc. That's how I view it, and that's why the online-only high-security heavy-balance nature of D3 is something that entices me.
Completely agree. TL2 will be fun for 30 hours or so maybe a bit more since it's supposedly a lot bigger. However, where is the fun in item hunting when you can just program up a mod that gives you any item in the game?
xManiaCCCx
12-08-2011, 23:17
Completely agree. TL2 will be fun for 30 hours or so maybe a bit more since it's supposedly a lot bigger. However, where is the fun in item hunting when you can just program up a mod that gives you any item in the game?
This reminds me discussion about Diablo 3 free spec.
"What is point making builds and play them if you can just choose anything anytime you want?"
People should play game how they want.. and not think about possiblities to ruin their fun. Do you like playing new characters and tyring different builds? Just never respec in Diablo 3 and you are set.
Do you like hunting new items and improve your gear? Never hack your character.
It's not that hard.
This reminds me discussion about Diablo 3 free spec.
"What is point making builds and play them if you can just choose anything anytime you want?"
People should play game how they want.. and not think about possiblities to ruin their fun. Do you like playing new characters and tyring different builds? Just never respec in Diablo 3 and you are set.
Do you like hunting new items and improve your gear? Never hack your character.
It's not that hard.
ya true - but we want to play a game where there are rules and challenges and to pit ourself vs our fellow man ...
and we thought D3 would have this.
Apocalypse
12-08-2011, 23:41
to hell with TL2. if the first torch light was any fun i might consider giving it a look but that boring piece of crap pretty much guarantees i wont be getting TL outside of a bargain deal when nothing else good is out
big fan of TL2 and POE and GrimDawn
but I really wish we could keep all these discussions in the off topic forum
(even though I do read and reply to all of them in the D3 forum)
to hell with TL2. if the first torch light was any fun i might consider giving it a look but that boring piece of crap pretty much guarantees i wont be getting TL outside of a bargain deal when nothing else good is out
Agreed. Many people praised Torchlight like it was the Second Coming yet I never managed to finish it.
This reminds me discussion about Diablo 3 free spec.
"What is point making builds and play them if you can just choose anything anytime you want?"
People should play game how they want.. and not think about possiblities to ruin their fun. Do you like playing new characters and tyring different builds? Just never respec in Diablo 3 and you are set.
Do you like hunting new items and improve your gear? Never hack your character.
It's not that hard.
What about the auction house, where you can get any item in the game for cash. Its actually not that much different except one leaves you with more money, though I dislike both.
Bandreus
13-08-2011, 00:41
I'm definitely going to buy TL2.
Can't really see all the hate people around this forums are throwing at it. Buy and play the games you like dudes, don't feel obligated to bash on things that hard just because they're different or don't suit your tastes.
Also, it's not like every game in the genre absolutely has to try and be "The Game". Some games will be perfectly fine with just being entertaining products, even if their destiny is to be played for a few weeks and being forgotten afterwards.
As crazy as this could sound to us die hard Diablo fans, a lot of people who bought D2 was just happy clearing it on normal with a few classes, only to store it in the closet right after that. No battlenet, no crazy top tier gear, no optimized builds being worked on for years. And it still was a blast to those I bet.
This reminds me discussion about Diablo 3 free spec.
"What is point making builds and play them if you can just choose anything anytime you want?"
People should play game how they want.. and not think about possiblities to ruin their fun. Do you like playing new characters and tyring different builds? Just never respec in Diablo 3 and you are set.
Do you like hunting new items and improve your gear? Never hack your character.
It's not that hard.
I never found putting more points into the skill more customizing my build.
You always had a choice of 1 point wonder or max skill (some few were 10 point skills)
You can't compare a respec option with the ability to generate every item in the game. As you could easily create a new character waste another 5 hours to level it and equip your gear on a totally different build.
I don't understand people who are mad on the fact they can respec, you don't want to respec? Fine, create a new character waste your time only to try a different build.
Items in the AH should be legit in terms of player self found items as Blizzard won't sell them. And dupes/hacks should be minimal with the security they are implementing.
I don't see any fun in RPG when you can make your own loot. The charm of item hunting is gone. And it's a HUGE part of such games imo.
I don't like playing SP, played HC MP diablo 2 for 5 years at least, creating a MP game with such modding power is like saying: you got a MP function but its crap you should only play SP.
xManiaCCCx
13-08-2011, 02:12
That's why I think multiplayer is not really that great for game like TL2..while it may befun to play with friends, playing with random people will be hell and not fun at all.
ThomasJ - I want to play it in an online, secure environment with no hacks or cheats.
Oh wait...
Apocalypse
13-08-2011, 04:00
ThomasJ - I want to play it in an online, secure environment with no hacks or cheats.
Oh wait...
better stick to lan games than....or you could just play games for 1-2 months after release then bail.
theeliminator
13-08-2011, 07:02
I never managed to finish it.
Same here, and believe me I tried. I just can't get pass more then 40mins before I have to shut it off cause its so boring. The game has less personality then a manikin.
And as others have said if the TL2 doesn't advance the skill system and all it is, is more TL1 then I won't be picking it up. Cause the last thing I thought when I was playing TL1 was "Man, I wish this was twice as long"
Wolfpaq777
13-08-2011, 07:31
What about the auction house, where you can get any item in the game for cash. Its actually not that much different except one leaves you with more money, though I dislike both.
If you don't inherently understand the difference between buying an item that another player found legitimately and programming (or just downloading) a mod to give you every piece of gear in the game, it's not worth my time explaining why one is far superior to the other.
Wolfpaq777
13-08-2011, 07:38
This reminds me discussion about Diablo 3 free spec.
"What is point making builds and play them if you can just choose anything anytime you want?"
People should play game how they want.. and not think about possiblities to ruin their fun. Do you like playing new characters and tyring different builds? Just never respec in Diablo 3 and you are set.
Do you like hunting new items and improve your gear? Never hack your character.
It's not that hard.
I'm having trouble making the skill to item analogy work in my head... maybe it's because I've never had a problem with respecs.
However, in a hunt and gather game which is the heart of makes the ARPG genre fun and appealing, having the capability of modding the game to give you any item simply ruins replayability for me. Will I buy TL2? Definitely. Beat it? Most likely, I beat the first one. Play multiplayer extensively? Doubtful. I'll probably put in my 30-40 hours and then bail for greener pastures, although I will keep my eyes open for cool mods since there is a lot of potential.
ThomasJ - I want to play it in an online, secure environment with no hacks or cheats.
Oh wait...
You mean force online play so they they can push item sales ? So instead we tell them they can have a secure client as long as you pay me the auction fees for the RMAH ? Sounds like a typical pay to win strategy.
If you don't inherently understand the difference between buying an item that another player found legitimately and programming (or just downloading) a mod to give you every piece of gear in the game, it's not worth my time explaining why one is far superior to the other.
Hrm, both require a miniscule amount of effort. Both have no involvement on your part in finding the item. Both make it easy to twink your character to the teeth with items while having very little skill.
You're right they are so much different!
Or perhaps the skill comes in entering your credit card details correctly? Because I'm pretty sure hacking an item in is harder than that.
Hrm, both require a miniscule amount of effort. Both have no involvement on your part in finding the item. Both make it easy to twink your character to the teeth with items while having very little skill.
You're right they are so much different!
Or perhaps the skill comes in entering your credit card details correctly? Because I'm pretty sure hacking an item in is harder than that.
All the difference is one is LEGIT and one is NOT.
Even if some dude will come to my Diablo 1 game and give me the most leet gear but it will be LEGIT I won't be called a cheater, but if I do the same with an editor I will be. Because he or someone else spent time finding this elite gear beforehand.
Again Blizzard never forced you to use RMAH. My guess even if they had only a normal AH this game still would be online only.
What's the difference to you if people trade for RM in the game's interface or in theirs browser interface in some third party site?
Are you that mad for Blizzard making profit of transactions? Hell if D3 a good game I wish Blizzard to make as much profit as they can, you know servers cost money, maintenance costs money, developments costs money etc, so I don't have problem with them making money from fixed fees.
And nothing changed from D2 when people say now every noob can buy elite gear, so what? He could do it beforehand in Diablo 2, the interface just moved into the game itself.
You mean force online play so they they can push item sales?
If you don't want to buy, don't buy. They're not pushing it, and this is not the reason it's online only. Pushing it would be forcing you to link some form of method of payment in order to start playing the game so that the temptation was always there.
So instead we tell them they can have a secure client as long as you pay me the auction fees for the RMAH ? Sounds like a typical pay to win strategy.
This is what the argument against RMAH boils down to: you don't want people to be able to 'pay to win'.
Now, seriously, why do you care what other people are doing? Are you going to do it? Because if you don't do it, it won't affect YOUR game experience. And if (as a lot of people plan to do) you're only going to play with friends then it only affects your game experience if your friends do it... and even then, not by much.
Crudesash68
13-08-2011, 09:08
Hrm, both require a miniscule amount of effort. Both have no involvement on your part in finding the item. Both make it easy to twink your character to the teeth with items while having very little skill.
You're right they are so much different!
Or perhaps the skill comes in entering your credit card details correctly? Because I'm pretty sure hacking an item in is harder than that.
Just as a point of argument, only the most lazy, and most immature, players will buy the game and immediately leech XP from mp games to grind to 60, and equip bought gear as they go. Is it really that big a deal that this fringe element no longer has to use a 3rd party site?
Hrm, both require a miniscule amount of effort. Both have no involvement on your part in finding the item. Both make it easy to twink your character to the teeth with items while having very little skill.
You're right they are so much different!
Or perhaps the skill comes in entering your credit card details correctly? Because I'm pretty sure hacking an item in is harder than that.
You're not understanding, and I'll brush the surface here:
The differences are that in the first case (buying) there is control over the total number/frequency of this item. Ergo the 'market' (and hence game) can never be flooded with rare items, and these can only be found at certain times, at certain places and at certain drop rates. These items will always be relatively expensive, there will always be a limited number, and a relatively tiny proportion of the population of players will ever have access to them (as, after you sell it, you not longer have it, obviously - another benefit of the anti-hack systems that online only will provide).
In the second example anyone can get anything immediately. You don't need to pay, but there's also no challenge, and no reason NOT to arm the best combination of gear. If you get stuck, you simply arm the bext weapon/armour combo and get past the area. You will never be able to trade things as everyone has anything and the game is, essentially, pointless if you mod.
Grumpy Old Wizard
13-08-2011, 09:31
There won't be any competition online, since everyone can just mod in the best equipment.
Lol, as opposed to people buying the best equipment or botting the best equipment, with Blizzard getting a cut of the profits of the illicit activities?
Lol, as opposed to people buying the best equipment or botting the best equipment, with Blizzard getting a cut of the profits of the illicit activities?
Ugh, with limited numbers of these items in the first place it doesn't matter if people are trading them, it's not possible for EVERYONE to have the Best Sword of Fragginess etc etc.
And again, if you don't buy or sell, Blizz don't get any money - people are just complaining because they hate change and don't understand what's going on.
Grumpy Old Wizard
13-08-2011, 09:36
This is what the argument against RMAH boils down to: you don't want people to be able to 'pay to win'.
Now, seriously, why do you care what other people are doing? Are you going to do it? Because if you don't do it, it won't affect YOUR game experience.
Lol, people who play through the whole game content will be at a disadvantage compared to those who engage in officially sanctioned cheating (buying gear.) Blizzard wanted a cut of the profits from the cheaters and has managed to figure out a scam to do just that.
That is the "why we care." People who buy the gear will dominate pvp and be much better at pvm than people who play through the game content to obtain their gear.
Saying it does not affect everyone's game experience is simply untrue.
Lol, people who play through the whole game content will be at a disadvantage compared to those who engage in officially sanctioned cheating (buying gear.) Blizzard wanted a cut of the profits from the cheaters and has managed to figure out a scam to do just that.
That is the "why we care." People who buy the gear will dominate pvp and be much better at pvm than people who play through the game content.
Saying it does not affect everyone's game experience is simply untrue.
It was my understanding (possibly incorrectly) that RMAH wouldn't be in PvP or HC. In that case, your above statement would be wholly incorrect.
And also, 'people who play through the whole game' - isn't that the point? A lot of people complaining about this act as if playing through the game isn't the main purpose...
Crudesash68
13-08-2011, 09:41
Lol, people who play through the whole game content will be at a disadvantage compared to those who engage in officially sanctioned cheating (buying gear.) Blizzard wanted a cut of the profits from the cheaters and has managed to figure out a scam to do just that.
That is the "why we care." People who buy the gear will dominate pvp and be much better at pvm than people who play through the game content to obtain their gear.
Saying it does not affect everyone's game experience is simply untrue.
Except someone else being better at PvM does not affect game experience. And I disagree that a person who buys gear is better at PvP; in PvP, skill is better than gear, when there is a close enough range to make a difference.
Grumpy Old Wizard
13-08-2011, 10:03
Except someone else being better at PvM does not affect game experience. And I disagree that a person who buys gear is better at PvP; in PvP, skill is better than gear, when there is a close enough range to make a difference.
Disagree all you want. People who have better gear will have the advantage in pvp.
People who pop in pvm games who have bought their gear will have the advantage and it does affect the game experience to have them be a more powerful pvm character because of their bought equipment.
There should be separate servers for people who want to buy their gear and those who don't.
Crudesash68
13-08-2011, 10:11
Disagree all you want. People who have better gear will have the advantage in pvp.
People who pop in pvm games who have bought their gear will have the advantage and it does affect the game experience to have them be a more powerful pvm character because of their bought equipment.
There should be separate servers for people who want to buy their gear and those who don't.
From personal experience, unless the gear to skill ratio is very high, skill>gear.
You can control who comes into your games, therefore there is no advantage if you choose not to have one. There are separate servers; they are called private games.
I agree with GOW and also don't understand this "it doesn't affect you" argument. It doesn't affect you if only play alone. In a multiplayer environment, it changes the game for everyone.
This also goes for the "you don't have to use it" argument. Nonsense.
Crudesash68
13-08-2011, 10:25
I agree with GOW and also don't understand this "it doesn't affect you" argument. It doesn't affect you if only play alone. In a multiplayer environment, it changes the game for everyone.
This also goes for the "you don't have to use it" argument. Nonsense.
If you only played MP with people that avoided all aspects of the game you disliked, we'll use the RMAH here for a moment, how would that affect your games?
And you don't have to use it, I don't see what is non-sensical about it.
If you only played MP with people that avoided all aspects of the game you disliked, we'll use the RMAH here for a moment, how would that affect your games?
And you don't have to use it, I don't see what is non-sensical about it.
I agree completely, the only time it affects you is when you play an open game with people you don't know. You can't say it's 'nonsense' because logically if you don't want it to affect your game you only play with people who don't use it.
Personally, I intend to do that. I will friend anyone who asks me to from these forums who regularly wants to play MP games with no RMAH influence. And I can play HC. Or I can play by myself.
But, seriously, lets imagine I slip up one day and don't apply a password to my MP game and someone comes in with gear they have 'bought'? Presumably these items will have requirements... skill levels etc. Now, it's entirely possible that they have found awesome artefacts, and entirely possible that thev're bought them - regardless, the items are appropriate to their level. At the end of the day, what difference does it make? How exactly will it affect MY games if one of the other people ingame has slightly better gear? Do you think the difference will be so great that I won't get any hits in, and will just have to walk through the story. Probably not, seeing as if that unlikely event happened I would... WAIT FOR IT... suffer the extra minute it took to create and password another games with my mates.
Grumpy Old Wizard
13-08-2011, 11:12
From personal experience, unless the gear to skill ratio is very high, skill>gear.
Again, disagree all you want, but you are wrong. If you and I have equal skill and I buy from the auction house to get all the elite gear and you don't YOU WLL LOSE. PERIOD.
Equipment matters or no one would buy equipment. :propeller:
You can control who comes into your games, therefore there is no advantage if you choose not to have one. There are separate servers; they are called private games.
No, I don't control who comes in my games because I don't know if they are a cheater or not. Only a very small percentage of people on cattlenet have people they can play with on a regular basis due to the difficulty of getting everyone together to play. Notice, I did not say no one belongs to a clan (clans are all cheaters to my knowledge.)
The best solution is to have separate servers for those who want to buy their gear and those who don't. Yeah, there is hardcore that disallows buying gear, but it is also subject to lag and death due to no fault of the player. That is one reason in D2 most of my hardcore games are single player games.
Of course people who buy their gear WANT THE ADVANTAGE over others, which is why they buy their gear instead of rolling with what they find or can trade for.
My guess is gear will be pretty different as far as stats go and will drop less frequently to get you to trade instead of find, blizzard said it themselves to continue making money in the auction house they will keep introducing more powerful loot. I think therein lies a clause that says they will modify drops to get you to trade more.
Anyways I thought we were talking about torchlight 2 vs diablo 3, I was simply pointing out that anyone can cheat the system in either game. If a person had a full sigons in diablo 2 they breeze by you, if they had a buriza and vamp gaze etc.. at the next level they breeze by you again. Definitely not going to be hard to attain those lower/mid level items when people no longer have use for them, maybe at the high levels equipment will be sparse but you will probably be done the game by then. Thats to say you get all the best items, second tier items are still going to make you kick *** anyways and will be cheaper.
But we still dont know if server side saves and stuff will be available in torchlight 2, so this is all just assuming its not. If it is available then torchlight will end up more fair than d3 imo.
ThulRasha
13-08-2011, 11:46
Lol, as opposed to people buying the best equipment or botting the best equipment, with Blizzard getting a cut of the profits of the illicit activities?
You are missing the point with TL2. The editor kinda makes it expected for people to have better than the best gear available, since you can basically make items that have 100 times the stats as is available in the default campaign. And it doesn't stop at items, you can make your own classes without limits. All with the editor thats shipped with the game.
Grumpy Old Wizard
13-08-2011, 12:08
You are missing the point with TL2. The editor kinda makes it expected for people to have better than the best gear available, since you can basically make items that have 100 times the stats as is available in the default campaign. And it doesn't stop at items, you can make your own classes without limits. All with the editor thats shipped with the game.
And yet as someone who has played a lot of Torchlight I can say I've never made one thing with the editor. I expect to play TL 2 in single player mode and never be bothered with such items.
Oh yes, fresh fan content is quite an advantage that D3 will not have. Fans produced some awesome mods for TL.
ThulRasha
13-08-2011, 12:11
And yet as someone who has played a lot of Torchlight I can say I've never made one thing with the editor. I expect to play TL 2 in single player mode and never be bothered with such items.
Oh yes, fresh fan content is quite an advantage that D3 will not have. Fans produced some awesome mods for TL.
Then you are commenting on something you don't plan to play.
I already said that for single player and lan play with friends, TL2 is going to be an excelent game. Not for multiplayer with strangers.
Grumpy Old Wizard
13-08-2011, 12:12
My guess is gear will be pretty different as far as stats go and will drop less frequently to get you to trade instead of find, blizzard said it themselves to continue making money in the auction house they will keep introducing more powerful loot. I think therein lies a clause that says they will modify drops to get you to trade more.
With no ability to customize attributes and no skill points D3 is all about items. So yeah, the ability to buy items is hugely broken and is quite unfair to those who don't shell out cash for gear.
Grumpy Old Wizard
13-08-2011, 12:14
Then you are commenting on something you don't plan to play.
I already said that for single player and lan play with friends, TL2 is going to be an excelent game. Not for multiplayer with strangers.
TL2 multiplayer will be no worse than Diablo3 since D3 players can buy gear adn be light years ahead of those who don't.
ThulRasha
13-08-2011, 12:16
TL2 multiplayer will be no worse than Diablo3 since D3 players can buy gear adn be light years ahead of those who don't.
I already explained that with the TL2 editor you can make better items than even exist in the default campaign.
With D3 you can't get better items than Blizzard put in.
So yes, it will be much worse.
DarwinJim
13-08-2011, 12:38
I played TL 1 a lot! Mods can be fun, not destructive of good game play. However, the online could well go the way of Borderlands online which was ludicrous at best.
Torchlight 2 is a quality game. The decision to play it should have no reference to whether Diablo III is satisfactory or not.
ThulRasha
13-08-2011, 12:50
It's exactly like the games in NWN where you can bring your own characters with own made equipment. Everyone is immume to everything.
It would help if the host of the game can verify the integrity of joining characters, but as far as I know, Runic chose to not include any checks at all.
Despite all that, I still think it will be a very enjoyable game. Just not in online multiplayer with strangers.
Crudesash68
13-08-2011, 12:55
Again, disagree all you want, but you are wrong. If you and I have equal skill and I buy from the auction house to get all the elite gear and you don't YOU WLL LOSE. PERIOD.
Equipment matters or no one would buy equipment. :propeller:
No, I don't control who comes in my games because I don't know if they are a cheater or not. Only a very small percentage of people on cattlenet have people they can play with on a regular basis due to the difficulty of getting everyone together to play. Notice, I did not say no one belongs to a clan (clans are all cheaters to my knowledge.)
The best solution is to have separate servers for those who want to buy their gear and those who don't. Yeah, there is hardcore that disallows buying gear, but it is also subject to lag and death due to no fault of the player. That is one reason in D2 most of my hardcore games are single player games.
Of course people who buy their gear WANT THE ADVANTAGE over others, which is why they buy their gear instead of rolling with what they find or can trade for.
Notice I specifically mentioned the ratio of skill to gear. Of course if we have equal skill then better gear wins out. When a more skilled player plays a lesser skilled one, they can win despite gear advantages.
And where have you been the last 5 years? Stop thinking that the D3 community will be everyone who plays/played D2 and no one else. People who play WoW can group together easily. They might be jerks, but that doesn't mean they cheat. We also don't know how the newcomers will act yet.
And all this is moot, I mean, you aren't playing anyway, right?
Grumpy Old Wizard
13-08-2011, 13:09
And all this is moot, I mean, you aren't playing anyway, right?
You mean I'm not going to purchase D3 unless Blizzard makes changes? Yes, that would be correct. I am pointing out flaws and hoping Blizzard reconsiders some of the poor decisions they have made. Like I said in another post I do think eventually Blizzard will reverse some of their decisions when they see how detrimental the decisions are to game play and the life of the game. They may even reverse some of those decisions as early as the upcoming beta cycle as they get in feedback from those playing the beta.
I just hope more than fanbois who worship everything Blizzard does get to play the beta. They need honest feedback, not worshippers.
xManiaCCCx
13-08-2011, 14:07
Grumpy..what about people who believe these changes are good or neutral. Do you think these people are fanbois too or it's not honest feedback? Or we are just stupid?
Most think you are arguing about are non-issue in my eyes..and most of them are making the game better. So..how would you categorize these people?
Fact is..these changes were made after blizzard got tons of feedback from their testers. They want to make their game better...not worse.. So why you think whole blizzard is stupid?
If you don't want to buy, don't buy. They're not pushing it, and this is not the reason it's online only. Pushing it would be forcing you to link some form of method of payment in order to start playing the game so that the temptation was always there.
This is what the argument against RMAH boils down to: you don't want people to be able to 'pay to win'.
Now, seriously, why do you care what other people are doing? Are you going to do it? Because if you don't do it, it won't affect YOUR game experience. And if (as a lot of people plan to do) you're only going to play with friends then it only affects your game experience if your friends do it... and even then, not by much.
It is the principle. It is something some are just not wanting to understand.
I really don't understand you people..
As long as Blizzard doesn't open an item shop so you got infinite godly items it's not cheating!!!
What is the difference to you trading your cash or your ingame currency for items as long as those items are legit?! What is the big difference if it's ingame interface or on some 3rd party website?
It's not a Blizzard shop! It's a player shop, and if rare items will be really rare and not like everyone got enigma griffon and other crap you won't be able to buy it even with real cash!!
No, I don't control who comes in my games because I don't know if they are a cheater or not. Only a very small percentage of people on cattlenet have people they can play with on a regular basis due to the difficulty of getting everyone together to play. Notice, I did not say no one belongs to a clan (clans are all cheaters to my knowledge.)
This is one of the most ridiculous things I have heard. You're moaning about controlling games, but then say you won't... and clans are all cheaters? Clans are groups of people who get together to avoid cheaters most of the time. It seems to me that you're just nto great at working out who to play with on a regular basis.
It is the principle. It is something some are just not wanting to understand.
This is also ridiculous. Yes, it is the principle, and you can make it your principles versus the principles in others. In the case of D3 you can almost certainly get a group of people with the same principles as you to play with (a clan, as stated above - although without all the supposed cheating) and just not play with the others you disagree with. Then this gives you no reason to care about what others are doing... unless it's just bitter grapes.
FletVictus
13-08-2011, 19:11
I can play tic tac toe online or offline too, but it's a ****ty game so I don't want to play it at all. same thing.
I can play tic tac toe online or offline too, but it's a ****ty game so I don't want to play it at all. same thing.
I just amazes me that people on this forum actually think their opinion of what the masses feel. Like their opinion is completely factual. Sometimes you just have to laugh....
Now, seriously, why do you care what other people are doing? Are you going to do it? Because if you don't do it, it won't affect YOUR game experience.
It's a multiplayer game; the whole point is to care about what others are doing. I wouldn't care what others were doing if it was a single player game. Humans are pack animals, look at our society: it's all about what others are doing.
If I play together with other people, I want them to play by the same rules I do. I want them to have put in just as much effort as I did to get what I have, not take cheap shortcuts. I want fair play through strict rules and they need to be enforced by the developer or they're meaningless.
The problem here is that I am not willing to shell out money for items and I am not willing to play with people who do. I can only play alone or with my friends but the point is I shouldn't have to.
Luckily I will only play hardcore where there will be an actual gold based economy, but again it's the principle that matters.
xManiaCCCx
13-08-2011, 19:34
It's a multiplayer game; the whole point is to care about what others are doing. I wouldn't care what others were doing if it was a single player game. Humans are pack animals, look at our society: it's all about what others are doing.
If I play together with other people, I want them to play by the same rules I do. I want them to have put in just as much effort as I did to get what I have, not take cheap shortcuts. I want fair play through strict rules and they need to be enforced by the developer or they're meaningless.
The problem here is that I am not willing to shell out money for items and I am not willing to play with people who do. I can only play alone or with my friends but the point is I shouldn't have to.
Luckily I will only play hardcore where there will be an actual gold based economy, but again it's the principle that matters.
But they are playing with same rules.. But it's on you which rules you want use... People just should stop care about other people.. They are not cheating in any way.
It's a multiplayer game; the whole point is to care about what others are doing. I wouldn't care what others were doing if it was a single player game. Humans are pack animals, look at our society: it's all about what others are doing.
If I play together with other people, I want them to play by the same rules I do. I want them to have put in just as much effort as I did to get what I have, not take cheap shortcuts. I want fair play through strict rules and they need to be enforced by the developer or they're meaningless.
The problem here is that I am not willing to shell out money for items and I am not willing to play with people who do. I can only play alone or with my friends but the point is I shouldn't have to.
Luckily I will only play hardcore where there will be an actual gold based economy, but again it's the principle that matters.
They could donate sperm for all of I care, as long it's a LEGIT item it shouldn't matter to you. Why? Because it doesn't ruin the economy.
Grumpy Old Wizard
13-08-2011, 20:47
They could donate sperm for all of I care, as long it's a LEGIT item it shouldn't matter to you. Why? Because it doesn't ruin the economy.
Them buying items gives them an unfair advantage whether the game is pvp or pvm. That is why people care. It is simply unfair for those who get their gear from actually playing through the game content. The servers should be separated into those who want to pay cash for their gear and those who don't in order to ensure fair play that Blizzard claims to care so much about.
ThulRasha
13-08-2011, 20:50
The servers already are separated that way. Play hardcore if you wan't nothing to do with the RMAH.
Grumpy Old Wizard
13-08-2011, 20:59
The servers already are separated that way. Play hardcore if you wan't nothing to do with the RMAH.
Nah, hardcore on cattlenet will have lag which means I could die through no fault of my own. Why not just separate the servers so those who want to buy their gear can do so and those who don't want to play in such an environment can do so. That would be an ideal solution for everyone.
The only reason people want to buy their gear is to have an advantage over other people though so of course they don't want the servers separated.
marshmallow
13-08-2011, 21:03
They are not cheating in any way.
Buying items is cheating.
I agree though, it doesn't really matter much.
xManiaCCCx
13-08-2011, 21:13
Buying items is cheating.
I agree though, it doesn't really matter much.
If these items are legit..it's not cheating... if buying would be cheating, we should remove gold AH too or trading altogether.
They could donate sperm for all of I care, as long it's a LEGIT item it shouldn't matter to you. Why? Because it doesn't ruin the economy.
Every item of worth on softcore is going to be sold for real money only. For people who prefer to use in-game currency, damn right it ruins the economy.
My problem isn't with people using legit features of the game but those features being legit in the first place. People will do whatever they can to gain an advantage. That's why rules exist: some things have to be banned or regulated for the greater good of everyone. I wouldn't have to isolate myself from half the playerbase if they weren't allowed to cheat.
By all means, if your government legalizes stealing provided you give up 5% of the loot as tax, go ahead, steal, but it doesn't mean stealing should be legal and is good for the economy. I can already imagine people posting "but you don't have to steal" and "other people stealing doesn't affect you" arguments left and right.
Every item of worth on softcore is going to be sold for real money only. For people who prefer to use in-game currency, damn right it ruins the economy.
You forget that you must bind your account to Blizzard or to Paypal or some other service.
If you bind to blizzard you can't withdraw your money but can buy games, expansions merchandise etc.
If you bind to paypal you can withdraw for a fee to paypal etc..
The meaning is you don't have to use your real cash you can just sell your items in RMAH and buy items for this same real currency without even using your hard earned cash.
BTW, I don't try to defend RMAH because it's important for me to have it as I will play HC only continuing my D2 tradition. I just don't see any flaw with it.
You will see, people will calm down after game's release.
Grumpy Old Wizard
13-08-2011, 22:02
If these items are legit..it's not cheating... if buying would be cheating, we should remove gold AH too or trading altogether.
There is a difference between trading items you find for other gear and trading your paycheck for gear. The paycheck came from outside the game. It is cheating. Buying an unfair advantage over other players.
I will indeed play TL2 however I want.
Not at all, that is.
dimasong
13-08-2011, 22:29
There is a difference between trading items you find for other gear and trading your paycheck for gear. The paycheck came from outside the game. It is cheating. Buying an unfair advantage over other players.
So the rich guy who can afford to farm Baal 12 hours a day instead of 3 isn't at advantage because of his wallet?
O lord. Get real, please. :coffee:
There is a difference between trading items you find for other gear and trading your paycheck for gear. The paycheck came from outside the game. It is cheating. Buying an unfair advantage over other players.
But again people had this ability for years with 3rd party sites..
What is the difference?!
You have RMAH you don't have RMAH people will still trade for real money if that's their target of interest.
And if they will calculate PVP by your abilities as they said you shouldn't care about it.
And as dimasong said time = money, so people with more time because they don't have to work have a clear advantage over people who don't.
And for god's sake! Its a game! Bash the monsters and find gear, who give a damn some guy decided he can't waste 50 hours to find this epic plate and just wanted to shell 10 bucks?
And who are you guys to decide for what people can trade or not as long as the items are legit?
There was a story some year or two ago about a woman willing to have sex with someone who would
give her an epic mount in WoW
I guess she got an advantage over other morons who farmed theirs. ROFL
Links:
http://digg.com/news/story/Woman_pays_with_sex_for_epic_mount_in_WoW
http://digg.com/news/story/Sex_for_Epic_Mount_UPDATE
And another one LOL
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=108705571&page=1
Grumpy Old Wizard
14-08-2011, 00:54
So the rich guy who can afford to farm Baal 12 hours a day instead of 3 isn't at advantage because of his wallet?
O lord. Get real, please. :coffee:
He is playing the game for his gear in that case, like everyone else does. But money should not come in from outside the game.
One of the big arguments for kicking single players to the curb is so there would be fewer cheaters (supposedly.) But that is not the case. Blizzard is endorsing cheating (buying gear) so that it can make moeny off the cheaters. Fine, let there be cheaters, let them buy their gear. But segregate them to RMAH servers.
So whys it bad when gold farmers do it, assuming they legitimately find the gold theres no problem right? I'm thinking your in the minority as far as competitive games go.
good for homelans, not good for always online nerding
According to you and blizzard post-2010? Okay then. :smug:
Daemonaz
14-08-2011, 05:31
He is playing the game for his gear in that case, like everyone else does. But money should not come in from outside the game.
One of the big arguments for kicking single players to the curb is so there would be fewer cheaters (supposedly.) But that is not the case. Blizzard is endorsing cheating (buying gear) so that it can make moeny off the cheaters. Fine, let there be cheaters, let them buy their gear. But segregate them to RMAH servers.
Your arguments are weaker by the day. It's amazing people actually still seriously respond to you, as you are nothing but a bad troll. You endorse an environment where people can cheat and hack freely (ie Torchlight 2) and call people who buy legit items for real cash from the AH cheaters. Mindboggling.
Such a ridiculous thread. Allowing players to buy items with real money instead of gold is neither cheating nor giving them an unfair advantage.
They don't get an unfair advantage in PvP simply because the matchmaking system pairs people up with other people of similar gear and level. Most players who buy items through this system will either be unskilled players or unlucky players. With the unskilled players its pretty much an easy and free win for you. With the unlucky but skilled players, you're fighting on even grounds, and if he beats you, even with RMAH bought gear, he still beat you fair and square because he had the skill to do so. When it comes to PvP, it will always be more about how well you handle your class than how well you can gear them up. Even without an RMAH, it will become easy for most players to get some of the best gear in the game. With or without, it will always be hard to say you're the most skilled "insert class here".
It shouldn't even matter if players bought gear through the RMAH in PvM as its COOP and not competitive. If you're complaining that your friends or even random players are able to kill monsters just a little bit faster than you can then you got bigger issues than RMAH bought gear.
No matter what though, it is never an unfair advantage as no item will ever be only obtainable through buying with real money. All items can be obtained on your own without spending a dime.
"The best items will only be on the RMAH though!"
And you can also sell your in game gold on the RMAH, giving you cash you need to buy an item that may be scarce on the GAH. Hell if you're lucky you could even save some gold if the exchange rates and the prices are right. And gold WILL sell pretty well on the RMAH thanks to the initial deposit fee for every transaction for which has NO REFUND. This means that you will still find items being sold on the GAH because the deposit fee is greater than the value of the item.
Also, lets be real here. A person doing a job in real life is more productive to society than you playing a video game. So even though they have to work only 2 hours to get that $30, and you had to kill for 10 hours to get an item worth that much, its still a fair trade because your playing a ****ing VIDEO GAME. They have every right to spend 2 hours worth of productive work to not have to spend 10 hours of unproductive work.
I think I've nailed every arguement I've seen so far. I await your rebuttals.
So why not just sell every item at the vendor then since they matter so little and it affects no one, I mean you'd have bigger problems if you cared right? Lets cut the bs and just give them away! Jackpot!
Such a ridiculous thread. Allowing players to buy items with real money instead of gold is neither cheating nor giving them an unfair advantage.
They don't get an unfair advantage in PvP simply because the matchmaking system pairs people up with other people of similar gear and level. Most players who buy items through this system will either be unskilled players or unlucky players. With the unskilled players its pretty much an easy and free win for you. With the unlucky but skilled players, you're fighting on even grounds, and if he beats you, even with RMAH bought gear, he still beat you fair and square because he had the skill to do so. When it comes to PvP, it will always be more about how well you handle your class than how well you can gear them up. Even without an RMAH, it will become easy for most players to get some of the best gear in the game. With or without, it will always be hard to say you're the most skilled "insert class here".
It shouldn't even matter if players bought gear through the RMAH in PvM as its COOP and not competitive. If you're complaining that your friends or even random players are able to kill monsters just a little bit faster than you can then you got bigger issues than RMAH bought gear.
No matter what though, it is never an unfair advantage as no item will ever be only obtainable through buying with real money. All items can be obtained on your own without spending a dime.
"The best items will only be on the RMAH though!"
And you can also sell your in game gold on the RMAH, giving you cash you need to buy an item that may be scarce on the GAH. Hell if you're lucky you could even save some gold if the exchange rates and the prices are right. And gold WILL sell pretty well on the RMAH thanks to the initial deposit fee for every transaction for which has NO REFUND. This means that you will still find items being sold on the GAH because the deposit fee is greater than the value of the item.
Also, lets be real here. A person doing a job in real life is more productive to society than you playing a video game. So even though they have to work only 2 hours to get that $30, and you had to kill for 10 hours to get an item worth that much, its still a fair trade because your playing a ****ing VIDEO GAME. They have every right to spend 2 hours worth of productive work to not have to spend 10 hours of unproductive work.
I think I've nailed every arguement I've seen so far. I await your rebuttals.
I rarely post here... but I have to say, that was an awesome post there. :thumbup:
His points consist of saying items dont matter and then telling us that its his opinion that its fair for someone to work 2 hours to buy an item because they are productive to society. What of it was a good point exactly? I mean "its fair because you can still use gold" isnt really an argument against using cash, so what else is there?
Like I said if items dont matter why would I spend time looking for them? Just give them to me please and skip all these shenanigans.
Such a ridiculous thread. Allowing players to buy items with real money instead of gold is neither cheating nor giving them an unfair advantage.
They don't get an unfair advantage in PvP simply because the matchmaking system pairs people up with other people of similar gear and level. Most players who buy items through this system will either be unskilled players or unlucky players. With the unskilled players its pretty much an easy and free win for you. With the unlucky but skilled players, you're fighting on even grounds, and if he beats you, even with RMAH bought gear, he still beat you fair and square because he had the skill to do so. When it comes to PvP, it will always be more about how well you handle your class than how well you can gear them up. Even without an RMAH, it will become easy for most players to get some of the best gear in the game. With or without, it will always be hard to say you're the most skilled "insert class here".
It shouldn't even matter if players bought gear through the RMAH in PvM as its COOP and not competitive. If you're complaining that your friends or even random players are able to kill monsters just a little bit faster than you can then you got bigger issues than RMAH bought gear.
No matter what though, it is never an unfair advantage as no item will ever be only obtainable through buying with real money. All items can be obtained on your own without spending a dime.
"The best items will only be on the RMAH though!"
And you can also sell your in game gold on the RMAH, giving you cash you need to buy an item that may be scarce on the GAH. Hell if you're lucky you could even save some gold if the exchange rates and the prices are right. And gold WILL sell pretty well on the RMAH thanks to the initial deposit fee for every transaction for which has NO REFUND. This means that you will still find items being sold on the GAH because the deposit fee is greater than the value of the item.
Also, lets be real here. A person doing a job in real life is more productive to society than you playing a video game. So even though they have to work only 2 hours to get that $30, and you had to kill for 10 hours to get an item worth that much, its still a fair trade because your playing a ****ing VIDEO GAME. They have every right to spend 2 hours worth of productive work to not have to spend 10 hours of unproductive work.
I think I've nailed every arguement I've seen so far. I await your rebuttals.
I've got to agree with you here. The auction house doesn't take anything away from players who don't want to use it, it only gives something more to players who ARE willing to spend their real-world money for virtual items (I'm not one of them...)
Never said items didn't matter, only that it didn't matter what legal method players obtained them from, whether its drops, GAH, or RMAH.
EDIT: Just to make sure we're clear here.
In PvP it doesn't matter because you'll never be matched against players that over-gear or even under-gear you. In which case the deciding factor is the skill of the players.
In PvM it doesn't matter because its not competitive. In fact having good geared teammates can lead to faster kills, which feeds into the whole reason Blizzard feels players will want to play MP over SP because faster kills = more loot = better chance for good loot. Even if you play with randoms or greedy friends who don't want to share their loot, you're still benefiting because they decided to spend a few bucks.
Items still matter though, without them you'll kill slower and be killed faster. By doing this though Blizzard is making the barrier of entry more skill based than item based, which is good because items can be bought no matter what, skill cannot.
@AxeX: completely agree, delighted that someone could put this more succinctly in one post. I would caution that their weak arguments keep coming though, I fear that until we're all playing this is one troll-subject that just won't give up the ghost.
Having said that, it's a great demonstration of why the D3 changes aren't as bad as everyone is making out, and also why we won't see any kind of large migration to other ARPGs.
In PvP it doesn't matter because you'll never be matched against players that over-gear or even under-gear you. In which case the deciding factor is the skill of the players.
Blizzard is balancing pvp based on players items, and you wont be matched against a newbier player who used the item shop?
Items still matter though, without them you'll kill slower and be killed faster. By doing this though Blizzard is making the barrier of entry more skill based than item based, which is good because items can be bought no matter what, skill cannot.
Somehow adding an item shop transfers it from being item dependent to skill dependent?
In PvM it doesn't matter because its not competitive. In fact having good geared teammates can lead to faster kills, which feeds into the whole reason Blizzard feels players will want to play MP over SP because faster kills = more loot = better chance for good loot. Even if you play with randoms or greedy friends who don't want to share their loot, you're still benefiting because they decided to spend a few bucks.
Since when is a game like this not competitive in pvm anyways, people compete all the time for kill speed and e-peen; I dont know many people who just want to be a leach to someone who item shops. Its definitely more likely to get you removed from the group if your items arent up to par, and creating an easier game for people that use and party with a cash shopper is a horrible argument in my book; and the argument was made by blizzard who were against cash shops, rushing, and maphack at one point against that same reason. I'd say in the end you cant remove in-game pvp and expect people to hold hands and sing, diablo was and still is a competitive game.
Blizzard is balancing pvp based on players items, and you wont be matched against a newbier player who used the item shop?
And you won't be able to beat that 'newbie'? Again, where is the confirmation you'll actually be allowed purchased items in PvP?
Since when is a game like this not competitive in pvm anyways, people compete all the time for kill speed and e-peen; I dont know many people who just want to be a leach to someone who item shops. Its definitely more likely to get you removed from the group if your items arent up to par, and creating an easier game for people that use and party with a cash shopper is a horrible argument in my book; and the argument was made by blizzard who were against cash shops, rushing, and maphack at one point against that same reason. I'd say in the end you cant remove in-game pvp and expect people to hold hands and sing, diablo was and still is a competitive game.
The same people who buy from the RMAH were the people who bought from 3rd party sites before. Nothing changes.
You friend people who are similar-minded to you and play mostly with them, or play SP? Problem solved.
It ALL depends on how competitive you want to be (and even then, it won't make a big difference) versus getting game content.
Literally, ALL Blizzard are doing is making sure that people cheat less, and that they control something that's happening already... and good on them, I'd rather they made a bit of money out of it and therefore could potentially fund free expansions etc.
Again, where is the confirmation you'll actually be allowed purchased items in PvP?
http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/blizzards-rmah-defenders-grow-weary
question: That being said, you can’t deny the fact that someone who can purchase gear can get advantages over fellow gamers in PvP
Bashiok's reply: Sure, but the advantage (in PvP) would be they could maybe get a short winning-streak but with the matchmaking system it would compensate and they’d quickly get matched against better people and it would even out.
If having better gear makes you a better player in PvP (which I would argue is only true to a small extent), it doesn’t mean anything because you’re getting matched against similarly skilled players each time.
...
In PvP it doesn't matter because you'll never be matched against players that over-gear or even under-gear you. In which case the deciding factor is the skill of the players.
you can see from Bashiok's reply that the above statement is not true
gear has nothing to do with match making
it is the wins that determine matchmaking
In the end PVP matchmaking will be evened out by your skill.
We can't deny gear doesn't help you win, but why does it matters to you if some dude bought his gear with ingame gold or his hard earned cash or farmed till his fingers bled?
Each finds his legit way, and using 3rd party sites would be legit in Diablo 2 if they didn't dupe/bot their equipment.
The gear itself comes from the game world not from a BLIZZARD shop where there is infinite legendary items.
If we say dupes and bots won't ruin D3 economy we will still have enough good long fun.
Things change? SHOCKING REVELATIONS HERE!
If you want to argue the point, then argue it. You know, instead of just sitting there and trying to nonsensically cite history as being any basis for keeping things the way they are now. Which it isn't.
I'm still waiting to hear who's being cheated by buying items - who is it? Is it diablo? Is he being cheated by players buying items?
Is it the monsters and their AI that's being cheated? Who?
Well, it must be Cain who misses his 100 gold identify fee from each new find :)
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