Sorc questions

[SunSet]

If i have full tal rasha set, i still need to look for something better? or is the set enough? (since i'm not rich at all, got like 4 ists runes, i cannot afford high runewords)
My sorc is lvl 84, frozen orb lightning/chain lightning build, and i can solo most of Hell's places, even tough i die in rooms with many ranged attackers >_<
I use a spirit shield into a Monarch, is this good enough? Should i change it?
Atm i'm using Silkweave boots, but i'm looking for War Traveler for MFing.
And last, i got like 4-5 Larzuk's quests still to complete...what and with what gem should i socket my items? (armor has already perf top)
Last, i need to cahnge my rings for some better uniques/rare, since atm i'm using a 10%fcr+60mana, and a rare ring with some nice res on it

[Karth]

Well, the trouble with upgrading gear from full Tal's is that the next step up requires several high runes. I'd stick with Tal's for a while. If anything, work towards getting a merc infinity or a call to arms if you don't have one yet.

35 fcr spirit monarch is good, you need it for 105/117 fcr with Tal's set.
Larzuk quests, I'd probably socket ptopaz into the helm, armor's already good. Maybe put a low facet into the orb if you have a light or cold facet.
Assuming you wear magefist, you want both rings to be FCR rings to hit 117% to speed up your lightning side. If your primary attack is orb, I wouldn't worry about it. Instead try to get either SoJs or rings with defensive stats. Hp, +str, mana, res, maek, etc.

[SunSet]

Well, the trouble with upgrading gear from full Tal's is that the next step up requires several high runes. I'd stick with Tal's for a while. If anything, work towards getting a merc infinity or a call to arms if you don't have one yet.

35 fcr spirit monarch is good, you need it for 105/117 fcr with Tal's set.
Larzuk quests, I'd probably socket ptopaz into the helm, armor's already good. Maybe put a low facet into the orb if you have a light or cold facet.
Assuming you wear magefist, you want both rings to be FCR rings to hit 117% to speed up your lightning side. If your primary attack is orb, I wouldn't worry about it. Instead try to get either SoJs or rings with defensive stats. Hp, +str, mana, res, maek, etc.

thnx for advice!

[LeaTelamon]

If you feel like gambling, you can of course do that (what else to spend all that gold on from selling crap?) plus try out some crafting. You can make some decent fcr rings from that and they are basically free (kinda, pames can be a pain the arse).

And what Karth said. Also, Anni + Torch. You should be able to afford a low torch or an anni with your ists. After that, finding (or buying) a good base for Infy, numero uno seeing your secondary attack is lightning.

[trappersinss]

i wouldnt go with a cold sorc... light sorc would be best and try to get a low infinity for the immunes

[LeaTelamon]

i wouldnt go with a cold sorc... light sorc would be best and try to get a low infinity for the immunes

In all honesty... did you read the OP? 4 ists are not even close to afford even a crap Infy in a crap base (that are non-existent). Also, without good gear, a lit sorc will still have immense problems dealing damage to lit immunes. It's not worth it. A budget sorc should always go dual tree unless you specialize into something very specific (e.g. doing Ancient Tunnels or hell Mephisto).

Anyway, for someone on a budget, Tal's is a fantastic set to get.

[Karth]

Also, without good gear, a lit sorc will still have immense problems dealing damage to lit immunes.

Tal's set gives the same -elr as a low griff. Infinity merc is a good next step from there. Sure, it takes a lot of work, but building wealth isn't that hard once you've got a decent start.

[Scoobydoo]

If i have full tal rasha set, i still need to look for something better? or is the set enough? (since i'm not rich at all, got like 4 ists runes, i cannot afford high runewords) My sorc is lvl 84, frozen orb lightning/chain lightning build, and i can solo most of Hell's places, even tough i die in rooms with many ranged attackers >_<

I use a spirit shield into a Monarch, is this good enough? Should i change it?
Atm i'm using Silkweave boots, but i'm looking for War Traveler for MFing.

I had a cold/lite sorc using full tal set named "TalPasha" myself, having leveled him to 92 purely through MFing. I will say that unless you are planning on changing your build to a single tree, the full tal set is sufficient for most of your gameplay needs.

The available gear slots outside of full tal set are; glove, boots, shield, and 2 rings. And if this character is your primary MFer, the following is what I would advise for gear upgrade.


----------------------------

Gloves

1st choice: Chanceguards (there truly is no better glove for MFing)
2nd choice: Trang Oul set glove (for 20fcr & some resist)
3rd choice: Magefist (for 20fcr, mana regen, and a somewhat additional passive +fire skill to booster warmth)


----------------------------

Boots

1st choice: Wartravellers (30-50% MF, 10str bonus to save you some points for meeting spirit monarch's 156str req, 10vita for some extra life )
2nd choice: CowKing set boots (25% MF, 20dex for adding some % to your block with spirit monarch - meh)
3rd choice: Rare boots with dual/tri resist mods & some MF (best ones comes with frw and/or fhr)

For the 3rd choice, magical boots purchasable from NPCs can spawn up to 35% MF if you're desperate for some additional MF. Rare boots can spawn with MF too, and usually comes with additional mods.


----------------------------

Shields

1st choice: Spirit Monarch (+2skills, 55fhr, resist, life/mana, etc)
2nd choice: Splendor Grim/Troll Nest (20% MF, +1skill, 10fcr, etc)
3rd choice: Rhyme Grim (25% MF, 25 resist, good block mods, CBF mod)

Spirit Monarch (if available) is simply has too attractive mods to passup for the 2nd & 3rd choice.


----------------------------

Rings

1st choice: SoJs (+1skill. 25% more mana) - two of these will give you 2skills and give a 50% enhancement to your mana capacity; good for ES users with Insight Act 2 Merc.
2nd choice: Nagelrings (15-30%MF)
3rd choice: 10fcr rings with nice mods (the preferred ones are life, mana, resists, MF, etc)
4th choice: Dwarfstars (100%goldfind, 15% fire absorb, 12-15MDR)
5th choice: Ravenfrost (15-20dex, 20%cold absorb, CBF mod)

Having played a cold/lite sorc, I can tell you having +skill is more effective than having additional MF for ring slots. But should SoJs be unavailable to you, consider dwarfstars for the extra gold drops to aid in gambling for rare ring/boots replacements.


----------------------------


And last, i got like 4-5 Larzuk's quests still to complete...what and with what gem should i socket my items? (armor has already perf top)
I think it's safe to go with Ptopaz for your Tal Mask & Armor slots. As for your orb, if it's a perfect 2/2/2 tal orb go with Ist rune for maximized MF if you are not planning on changing your gear anytime soon. For non-perfect tal orbs, you can consider going with Fal rune if you wanna save on some stat points for equipping Spirit Monarch, Ko rune if you are planning on a max block approach with a higher block shield (rhyme), or any magical/rare jewel with MF and some useful mods.

[LeaTelamon]

Tal's set gives the same -elr as a low griff. Infinity merc is a good next step from there. Sure, it takes a lot of work, but building wealth isn't that hard once you've got a decent start.
I never said Infinity is an option later. Of course it is. However, telling someone who is on a budget to go lit and Infy without the gear to actually make it worth is just stupid.

Also, my point about getting anni + torch still stand for those ists. You'll get the most of them at this point in the game because they increase your killspeed with +skills and help you survive with the additional stats and mods. An Insight merc will work just fine, although after trying out the infinitecast teleport build, I have to say I like it much more over Insight, at least if you mostly run act bosses. Currently I am using a Reaper's Toll with Blackhorn's Face and a Duress in an eth ed wire fleece on my merc and he survives just fine as well as dealing decent damage. Would I more specifically focus on Baal I would give him a Kelpie Snare, so Baal can't do his annoying teleporting.

[Karth]

I never said Infinity is an option later. Of course it is. However, telling someone who is on a budget to go lit and Infy without the gear to actually make it worth is just stupid.


Tal rasha's set, decent fcr, decent mana, and infinity is all a full light build requires to be worth it in my opinion. :coffee:

Calling my end of things stupid doesn't make your argument better; it just makes it appear as if your side of the debate doesn't have legs to stand on. If you want to continue this tactic, I'm willing to skip the effort of further debate and go straight to insulting your genetics, parentage, mental attributes, etc. If not, come up with something better to say.

[magicrectangle]

Well, the trouble with upgrading gear from full Tal's is that the next step up requires several high runes. I'd stick with Tal's for a while. If anything, work towards getting a merc infinity or a call to arms if you don't have one yet.

Eh? Dropping tal's helm+weapon for shako+occy costs almost nothing (a few pgems or puls) and is a considerable boost in both +skills and MF over the full set. The -light resist isn't really useful for a dual element sorc without infinity so no reason to keep the crappy weapon and helmet for that.

If you don't care about MF dropping the entire set and using arachnid mesh, vipermagi, and mara's or a nice rare/crafted ammy as well is still within the price range given, so long as you don't go for perfect versions of said uniques. The mid range ones trade for quite reasonable prices.

Griffon's instead of shako is a little more spendy, but a low one is still in the given price range. (Although arguably not worth it for dual element, I wouldn't get it until after you get infinity and go pure light)

[Karth]

Eh? Dropping tal's helm+weapon for shako+occy costs almost nothing (a few pgems or puls) and is a considerable boost in both +skills and MF over the full set. The -light resist isn't really useful for a dual element sorc without infinity so no reason to keep the crappy weapon and helmet for that.

-15 ELR is a 15% increase in damage vs 0 res enemies and a bigger increase in damage as lightning resistance goes up. Don't forget that a dual elemental sorc also gets a 15% increase in cold damage from the orb. That -ELR is also very helpful when you want to use a lower resist wand on switch to break some lightning immunes. You've also just thrown 50 fhr, 267 BO-able life (shako's isn't), 107 BO-able mana, 10 life rep, and 45 all res out the window. You gained 1 +skill (not an increase in damage over tal's orb set bonuses), some maek, and 60% magic find on the high end of the diminishing returns scale. A bad trade.


If you don't care about MF dropping the entire set and using arachnid mesh, vipermagi, and mara's or a nice rare/crafted ammy as well is still within the price range given, so long as you don't go for perfect versions of said uniques. The mid range ones trade for quite reasonable prices.

This will still result in a less well-rounded character than full tal's set.


Griffon's instead of shako is a little more spendy, but a low one is still in the given price range. (Although arguably not worth it for dual element, I wouldn't get it until after you get infinity and go pure light)

I would say that it is very much not worth it to spend runes on a griff before you have infinity, unless you desperately need the fcr to meet a nearby breakpoint and can't get it elsewhere.

[magicrectangle]

-15 ELR is a 15% increase in damage vs 0 res enemies and a bigger increase in damage as lightning resistance goes up. Don't forget that a dual elemental sorc also gets a 15% increase in cold damage from the orb.
because the damage increase from -15% LR is multiplied rather than added, it makes a much bigger total difference for a highly geared, highly synergized sorc than it does for a lowly geared dual-spec sorc. You're probably right that even at that level it provides more damage than +1 skills, but it's not anything to write home about, and certainly not going to increase killing speed enough to justify dropping 100% MF, assuming MFing is what you're doing.


That -ELR is also very helpful when you want to use a lower resist wand on switch to break some lightning immunes.
Except he's dual element so if he ever does this, it will be extremely rarely.


You've also just thrown 50 fhr
Energy shield


BO-able life (shako's isn't), 107 BO-able mana
Except he obviously doesn't have CtA


some maek
Some what?


and 60% magic find on the high end of the diminishing returns scale. A bad trade.100% magic find. 50% from shako, 50% from occy, nothing lost from 3 piece tal. How much this matters depends what he wants to do with it, 100% MF is nothing to sneeze at.

IMHO the bigger challenge if you run nilithak much though is that you can't hit 117FCR with full tal's unless you use two FCR rings (no nature's peace).

edit: in all fairness though, Tal's set does make you look awesome.

[Karth]

Excuse my misstatements about mf, rep, and fhr, I admit that I goofed while looking at arreat's. Still...


because the damage increase from -15% LR is multiplied rather than added, it makes a much bigger total difference for a highly geared, highly synergized sorc than it does for a lowly geared dual-spec sorc. You're probably right that even at that level it provides more damage than +1 skills, but it's not anything to write home about, and certainly not going to increase killing speed enough to justify dropping 100% MF, assuming MFing is what you're doing.

15% is still 15% however small the pie. We're not adding lightning mastery where 15% might be a 2% increase in damage, this is 15% overall.

MF has very strongly diminishing returns over ~300%. I believe you are overestimating its value. I have used sorcs from 150 to 400+ mf and I find more with ~250 mf and increased kill speed than I ever did at 400mf. That lost MF is off the top end, it isn't like you're going from 100 to 0, it is more like going from 100 to 90.



Except he's dual element so if he ever does this, it will be extremely rarely.

Quite true.


Energy shield

1 point ES is a bad decision in my opinion, particularly without BO.



Except he obviously doesn't have CtA

So he doesn't have cta. He can and should get it and use it as part of the next few steps in improving his character. The difference then becomes important.


Some what?

Maek = mana after each kill. Of course, with the slower kill speed this matters less because you spend more mana per mob per kill.


100% magic find. 50% from shako, 50% from occy, nothing lost from 3 piece tal. How much this matters depends what he wants to do with it, 100% MF is nothing to sneeze at.

IMHO the bigger challenge if you run nilithak much though is that you can't hit 117FCR with full tal's unless you use two FCR rings (no nature's peace).

edit: in all fairness though, Tal's set does make you look awesome.

117% fcr still isn't necessary. If you want more flexibility with your rings without sacrificing much in damage, go for a heavy cold side. Either way, it won't kill you to switch rings and use a lower breakpoint just for nihl.

I stand by full Tal's for any dual tree build.

[magicrectangle]

15% is still 15% however small the pie. We're not adding lightning mastery where 15% might be a 2% increase in damage, this is 15% overall.Precisely, which is why it makes a much bigger numerical difference for a character with lots of lightning skillers and synergies than a low geared dual-element. +1 skills by contrast makes a much bigger percent-wise difference for a low geared character. Exactly what that is percent wise I couldn't say without knowing the exact skill layout and +skill amount of the OP, but I'd guess it's in the neighborhood of 5% for +1 skills.


MF has very strongly diminishing returns over ~300%. I believe you are overestimating its value. I have used sorcs from 150 to 400+ mf and I find more with ~250 mf and increased kill speed than I ever did at 400mf. That lost MF is off the top end, it isn't like you're going from 100 to 0, it is more like going from 100 to 90.
The OP said he was looking for more MF (in the form of war travs), shako+occy is a great way to add 100% MF without losing much (if any) kill speed. He also didn't mention his total MF so I don't know why you're assuming he's in the 400%+ area. Tal's might be his only source of MF. If he's stacked with MF charms then yeah adding more is less important.



117% fcr still isn't necessary.
Necessary? No, but it makes a much bigger difference than -15% LR against anything other than broken immunes. Of course shako+occy doesn't get you there either, but there's lots more options available when you're willing to break full tal's.

I don't have anything against full tal's in a lot of situations, but if MFing is what you're doing (which was my interpretation of the OP) it simply makes sense to get an extra 100% MF when it costs you little (if any) kill speed.

edit: Of course there are different sorts of MFing too. If you're zone clearing kill speed is pretty important, and a 10% increase in damage can translate to something like a 5%ish increase in zone clearing time. Plus if you're zone clearing a lot of what you want is socketables, so a really high MF can be counterproductive.

On the other hand, if you're teleporting to bosses the damage increase doesn't effect the speed of your runs much at all. I can tell you as a key runner that I don't mind stacking MF at all, so long as I don't drop a teleport breakpoint. I spend 95% of my time teleporting and 5% of my time killing. If I can increase my unique find from 136% (300% MF) to 153% (400% MF) it's a no-brainer that I should do it - my run speed is increased by at most 0.5% (10% of the 5% of the time I actually spend killing), and I get a 7.2% total increase in the number of uniques I find. My main gear concern is just that I won't get killed by nilithak and his tomb viper friends.

[Karth]

Precisely, which is why it makes a much bigger numerical difference for a character with lots of lightning skillers and synergies than a low geared dual-element. +1 skills by contrast makes a much bigger percent-wise difference for a low geared character. Exactly what that is percent wise I couldn't say without knowing the exact skill layout and +skill amount of the OP, but I'd guess it's in the neighborhood of 5% for +1 skills.


The OP said he was looking for more MF (in the form of war travs), shako+occy is a great way to add 100% MF without losing much (if any) kill speed. He also didn't mention his total MF so I don't know why you're assuming he's in the 400%+ area. Tal's might be his only source of MF. If he's stacked with MF charms then yeah adding more is less important.



Necessary? No, but it makes a much bigger difference than -15% LR against anything other than broken immunes. Of course shako+occy doesn't get you there either, but there's lots more options available when you're willing to break full tal's.

I don't have anything against full tal's in a lot of situations, but if MFing is what you're doing (which was my interpretation of the OP) it simply makes sense to get an extra 100% MF when it costs you little (if any) kill speed.

edit: Of course there are different sorts of MFing too. If you're zone clearing kill speed is pretty important, and a 10% increase in damage can translate to something like a 5%ish increase in zone clearing time. Plus if you're zone clearing a lot of what you want is socketables, so a really high MF can be counterproductive.

On the other hand, if you're teleporting to bosses the damage increase doesn't effect the speed of your runs much at all. I can tell you as a key runner that I don't mind stacking MF at all, so long as I don't drop a teleport breakpoint. I spend 95% of my time teleporting and 5% of my time killing. If I can increase my unique find from 136% (300% MF) to 153% (400% MF) it's a no-brainer that I should do it - my run speed is increased by at most 0.5% (10% of the 5% of the time I actually spend killing), and I get a 7.2% total increase in the number of uniques I find. My main gear concern is just that I won't get killed by nilithak and his tomb viper friends.

-15 ELR is much greater than 1 skill from switching to occy + shako. Note also that you gain 15% cold damage, improving both sides of the build at once.

Shako + occy greatly affects killing speed for an area clearing FO/CL build. If he just wanted to run bosses, I agree, 400 mf would be a good idea, but in that case, FO/CL would be a bad idea. I would strongly recommend meteorb or straight blizz for a boss runner. If tal's is his only source of magic find he can still easily get into the ~250- comfort zone with low travs and a low gheed's. Tal's by itself (with 2x ptopaz, of course) gets him to 211. I was never assuming he was at 400+, I was making an arguement for tal's like you were making an arguement for occy+shako. ~250 with tal's set advantages is better for a FO/CL build than 350 mf.

117% fcr only gives an 8% damage increase (15%>8%) over the 78 fcr breakpoint and I don't see how this is relevant? If he's prime-FO it doesn't matter much either way.

Like you said, zone clearing puts a strong emphasis on kill speed. FO/CL is a zone clearing build, moreso than any other dual tree build, and thus benefits more from full tal's than 3 piece and the 100 extra mf. If he were to just kill bosses with 3 piece, again, I recommend meteor or blizz and higher mf.

I've stated all the salient points for Full Tal's vs. 3 piece for this build. We're just chasing each other in circles, so I'm going to end my side of it here.

OP: Again, a pair of travs and a gheed's should get you to 250-300 magic find, which is a nice place to be. More than that will compromise you kill speed or cost a great deal in new gear. You might also consider using a Rhyme+gull/ali babas on switch for that attack on a boss to give yourself a big boost in MF until you can afford call to arms.

[magicrectangle]

117% fcr only gives an 8% damage increase (15%>8%) over the 78 fcr breakpoint and I don't see how this is relevant? If he's prime-FO it doesn't matter much either way.

8% faster lightning translates directly to 8% faster kill speed. Not true with 15% more damage lightning. Most mobs will still die with 1-2 lightnings whether or not you increase damage 15%. It's not nothing, but increasing damage often results in lots of overkill damage, faster casting will always increase kill speed.

[zrk]

Tal's set gives the same -elr as a low griff. Infinity merc is a good next step from there. Sure, it takes a lot of work, but building wealth isn't that hard once you've got a decent start.

Light sorcs dont deal anywhere near the amount of damage blizz sorcs do. Infinity or no infinity, the case is the same. Blizz just does more damage than lightning, whatever the situation. Being able to kill immunes is the only advantage off light, and this can be compensated to a large degree by using a buff might, eth reaper, fort,guillaume merc

[Klonki]

I don't want to highjack or make a new thread for my question, so here i go.

Q: Should i max lightning mastery before charged bolt? Chain Lightning and Lightning is already done. I know i should max nova last.

/End of highjack.

[magicrectangle]

I don't want to highjack or make a new thread for my question, so here i go.

Q: Should i max lightning mastery before charged bolt? Chain Lightning and Lightning is already done. I know i should max nova last.

/End of highjack.

This depends on your level of +skills, as they effect mastery but not synergies.

Check the skill calculator (http://diablo2.ingame.de/spiel/skills/calc/index.php?char=sor&lang=en) if you want to know exactly, you can play with putting points in LM or CB and see which increases your lightning damage more, with your level of +skills

The answer will probably be that lightning mastery is better, unless your +skill is really high.