Diablo 1 did not have skill points. Diablo 2 had EXTENSIVE RMT. d [Archive]

Wolfpaq777

01-08-2011, 16:50

marshmallow

01-08-2011, 16:55

Can I have an official maphack too?

ShadoutMapes

01-08-2011, 16:59

Official and unofficial is not the same. That is all really.

Dudzy

01-08-2011, 17:00

Can I have an official maphack too?

Dont troll topics because you dont have the same opinion.

That said what i want in a diablo game is to kill things and have them drop lots of loot. If they do that well im sold.

All these people raging will still buy the game even tho they say they wont. I bet we laugh at all this down the road actually.

People want new revolutionary game design and then spit in the face of any developers who try something new or risky.

Lomion

01-08-2011, 17:00

Can I have an official maphack too?
Explain the benefits of such a thing, and you can have it.

Oh wait, you was just trolling?

Wolfpaq777

01-08-2011, 17:18

Official and unofficial is not the same. That is all really.

You're right. Official is better in every way possible.

what i want in a diablo game is to kill things and have them drop lots of loot. If they do that well im sold.

Agreed.

Risingred

01-08-2011, 17:23

Diablo II had rmt. That doesn't make it right.
It also had maphack and tppk. Perhaps we should bring those back, too.

wasteyface

01-08-2011, 17:25

I'm extremely skeptical that RMT was "extensive" in the first 3-5 years after D2LOD was released.

woelrat

01-08-2011, 17:31

That said what i want in a diablo game is to kill things and have them drop lots of loot.

Amen to that

Wolfpaq777

01-08-2011, 17:37

Diablo II had rmt. That doesn't make it right.
It also had maphack and tppk. Perhaps we should bring those back, too.

Because real money trading is the same thing as 3rd party hacks.

Fail analogy is fail.

raishi

01-08-2011, 17:45

Agreed on all points :) And I also would bet a ridiculous amount of money that they will buy it, maybe not right away, but eventually they will :)

ThomasJ

01-08-2011, 17:50

Dudzy

01-08-2011, 17:53

Yeah it had it, illegal rmt from 3rd party sites. Now that Bli$$ard is offering those 3rd party sites to come play D3 as long as you give them a cut. D3 is pretty much a black market now, a haven for gold sellers.

Actually i would think this makes it harder in some regards for gold sellers to make a actual profit. First theres the blizzard cut, then another cut from the banking company they use when they money is taken out. Plus they not only have to compete with themselves, theirs also every other person with a copy.

Im sure there will still be farmers but i think diablo 3 will be less profitable then other games.

ThomasJ

01-08-2011, 17:58

Ha! This is a goldsellers dream now. Just give Bli$$ard some cash every now and then and you are good to go. Why will they stop you knowing they will be making a ton of money in Asia with this new RMAH. You might even need to fill out a W2 form!

Steven Catogen

01-08-2011, 18:01

Did we not love and enjoy both of these games?

D1 was also released almost a decade and a half ago. Imagine if any of the other games from then were not released until today, as they are now. They wouldn't be so popular now would they? Because the game genre has evolved.

RMT was one of the biggest problems with D2, both for all the obvious reasons and because you would get spammed constantly by people advertising their wares. Do you think that will change if EVERYONE is selling their items for real money? Of course it will, but if you think that change will be for the better you have not been paying attention.

The removal of traits, disappointing. Exclusively online play disappointing, I'm sure, for some people. But skillpoint removal and RMT support? Think back to D2. 99.9% of skillpoint builds went like this: 1 point in the onepointwonders, max main attack skill and its synergies. Maybe max a buff once those are done. Is that true character customization? Not at all. Not even close! Driving character customization by the skills you pick makes much more sense in a game where you are limited to 6 out of hundreds.

D2 had a terrible skill system. That does not mean all skill systems are terrible. Titan Quest did a decent job on far less money and development resources. Saying "herpity derp we can't make skills worth a damn so AUTO BATTLE IT" is not a compelling or an articulate argument.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the game will be continuously evolving. In order for the market not to become extremely saturated Blizzard will at the very least need to be releasing new items on a regular basis. We still have hundreds of skills to choose from and the potential for an awesome revamped skill rune system. 2 planned expansions and many patches in between leaves plenty of opportunity for Blizzard to revise / revamp / redo things which they have repeatedly proven willing to do.

So instead of grinding real money for in game items once... they release new stuff that renders all the old stuff pointless, so you have to spend more real money just to keep up.

In my 15 years of playing Blizzard games never once have they released anything that wasn't stellar. I am confident that D3 will not be an exception.

As much as I've liked the series so far, they are definitely on a collision course with catastrophe right now.

fnaxqtr

01-08-2011, 18:02

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho5Yxe6UVv4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho5Yxe6UVv4

there are way worse labor condidtions than you will see in this video. i just dont find the video of those guys filmed a gaming workshop with only kids in it ... in some way blizz is supporting this now :/

______________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBz211cryhU&feature=player_detailpage#t=153s

there is also this video of a blizz employee: "its very important to us to keep a fair gaming "

______________________________

and you think blizz can beat that guy ?!?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWvHcoqru7I

Dudzy

01-08-2011, 18:03

Its hard to take you seriously when you use $ for the letter S.

You either care or you dont, i dont so i guess i will be enjoying diablo 3.

marshmallow

01-08-2011, 18:04

Explain the benefits of such a thing, and you can have it.

Oh wait, you was just trolling?

I don't have any hard figures but I imagine a lot more people in D2 map hacked than bought items off third party sites. So to protect their accounts/computers from viruses and the like Blizzard could offer an official ingame maphack that shows all enemies, shrines, and entrances/exits. It's obviously what players want. And not only will this protect the community it will enable players to find more loot by finding the bosses/biggest mobs ASAP which they can then sell on the RMTAH. Win/win.

Wolfpaq777

01-08-2011, 18:06

Ha! This is a goldsellers dream now.

Sorry, this is idiotic. This change is a gold seller's nightmare. Instead of getting 100% pure, monitor-less profits they are forced to give a cut to Blizzard, and will have their sales tracked very closely. Say the top earner jumps from $100 / day to $1500 / day. Blizzard will notice, analyze their sales pattern & trading habits and close whatever exploit/hack/dupe scheme they have going to inflate their profits.

This change is GREAT for the game.

Dudzy

01-08-2011, 18:07

I don't have any hard figures but I imagine a lot more people in D2 map hacked than bought items off third party sites. So to protect their accounts/computers from viruses and the like Blizzard could offer an official ingame maphack that shows all enemies, shrines, and entrances/exits. It's obviously what players want. And not only will this protect the community it will enable players to find more loot by finding the bosses/biggest mobs ASAP which they can then sell on the RMTAH. Win/win.

Thats really taking some leaps with what people are saying and its not at all the same thing. Whats the difference if i earn 3 dollars selling items and use it to buy something then if i earned 300 gold and did the same thing. See i love blizzard games but hate the community for them because of stuff like this. Dont get the game then, we wont miss you.

popenfresh

01-08-2011, 18:09

Because real money trading is the same thing as 3rd party hacks.

Fail analogy is fail.

Buying items for real money is buying items for real money....

Did I miss something? =/

ThomasJ

01-08-2011, 18:14

Dudzy

01-08-2011, 18:18

As long as you give them a cut of the action they do not care how the ecomomy is. What part are you not understanding and when some people buy the game and play on the different AH servers you supporting 3rd party gold selling activity. This is just stupid that you would even say this is good for the game.

Actually i think giving them a cut makes them care more about it. And its not 3rd party anymore if its a in game thing. Also your post count is 666, thats a sign you need to lighten up, things will be cool and im sure we will still enjoy the game.

Shadowtwin

01-08-2011, 18:18

The thing I am surprised the most by isn't the reaction to the RMAH, it's the reaction to the online only aspect. Am I really the only one that assumed that since they were removing LAN support and the ability to created MODs and Add-ons that would necessarily have to eliminate offline play? I was a little peeved about it too, but I was a little peeved about it a couple of months ago and have gotten over it now.

Mad Mantis

01-08-2011, 18:21

Buying items for real money is buying items for real money....

Did I miss something? =/

Yes. They like the idea of buying items, but they don't like maphack. That's why buying items is good, but the maphack example is a failed analogy.

JAKACHAN

01-08-2011, 18:28

Alright this argument is ridiculous... We all know that the minute games these days are released there are tons of spam bots advertising gold selling websites or item selling websites. Also, obviously in D2 over 50% of the population bought items off of these 3rd party websites to give their characters an unfair gear advantage. Now let me ask you this... Do you have a better idea to combat these 3rd party websites other than kicking them off to the side to begin with? With this way if they want to make any cash they have a fee taken out by Blizzard (Which in turn goes back into the game in the form of updates) and another fee taken out by their 3rd party banking source. If you think people are going to make thousands of dollars from this you are absolutely insane. After all the cuts and not to mention how low the price of items will really be (Whose going to buy a goldskin for 30 bucks?) You have to realize that it will effectively cut the Gold/Item farming companies profits by a significant amount and possibly keep them away.

Mad Mantis

01-08-2011, 18:33

There there, rub a few more brain cells together. You might be able to figure out why this analogy is ridiculous, some day.

Keep deluding yourself.

popenfresh

01-08-2011, 18:45

Torch, when are you going to learn that random insults don't count as valid arguments?

MagisterMan

01-08-2011, 18:50

Sorry, this is idiotic. This change is a gold seller's nightmare. Instead of getting 100% pure, monitor-less profits they are forced to give a cut to Blizzard, and will have their sales tracked very closely. Say the top earner jumps from $100 / day to $1500 / day. Blizzard will notice, analyze their sales pattern & trading habits and close whatever exploit/hack/dupe scheme they have going to inflate their profits.

This change is GREAT for the game.

Though they can cut down costs of having a website and advertise it (I asume this is how it works) and just sell directly via D3:s ingame system.

Ethix

01-08-2011, 19:03

OP makes a great and really obvious point with his initial post.

I don't understand why some people in this fan base honestly believe they reserve the right to claim what is best for Diablo 3 over the skill and expertise of a renown gaming company with such flawless success record.

Some of you people to to wake up and realize that 3rd party sellers were a big problem in Diablo 2 and this is one of the best and most logical ways of stopping it in its tracks in Diablo 3. No one cares if you don't like it, its a reality so deal with it. The bottom line is Blizzard is going to do what is best for Blizzard and no butthurt fanboy crying is going to prevent them from making the game to the best of their ability.

Risingred

01-08-2011, 19:05

the skill and expertise of a renown gaming company with such flawless success record.

3rd party sellers were a big problem in Diablo 2

I lol'd. But thanks for judging us and telling us how to think and feel, new guy.

popenfresh

01-08-2011, 19:06

Also, obviously in D2 over 50% of the population bought items off of these 3rd party websites to give their characters an unfair gear advantage.

Making up numbers is fun, 72% of the D2 community also rode on unicorns and danced with forest elves during the summer solstice.

No one cares if you don't like it, its a reality so deal with it.

Phew, and here I was being worried about world hunger and poverty. But thanks to your post I now understand that it's a reality and will have to learn to live with it whilst doing nothing whatsoever.

Ethix

01-08-2011, 19:08

I lol'd. But thanks for judging us and telling us how to think and feel, new guy.

Thanks for making it obvious that you believe your opinion means more then mine just because I am new to this forum, old guy.

Wolfpaq777

01-08-2011, 19:12

Buying items for real money is buying items for real money....

Did I miss something? =/

I was responding to RisingRed's analogy (comparing D2's RMT to D2's 3rd party hacks).

Apocalypse

01-08-2011, 19:16

so because d1 had no skill points we should be ok with taking a step back in d3 and not having them again? if d3 had no stash would it be ok cause d1 didnt and we all loved that game?

raishi

01-08-2011, 19:17

As i remember reading, the RMAH is going to be regional, not global, so the asian guys will only be selling to other asians...

popenfresh

01-08-2011, 19:25

I was responding to RisingRed's analogy (comparing D2's RMT to D2's 3rd party hacks).

So was I...

I thought it was a valid analogy. IMHO there's no dissimilarity between paying $$ for ingame items from a 3rd party farm botter or from a blizzard run auction house. I'm not trolling here, I really don't see the difference other than the fact that Blizz is now cashing in on it.

it's still unfair towards non payers
it doesn't discourage botting
and the system itself doesn't stabilize the economy.

edit: oh wait did u mean D3's RMT or D2' RMT?

Klocwerk

01-08-2011, 19:26

As i remember reading, the RMAH is going to be regional, not global, so the asian guys will only be selling to other asians...

Yeah, it's not like there's a global interconnected network that would let them access servers somewhere else... /sarcasm

Cornskin

01-08-2011, 19:27

Did we not love and enjoy both of these games?

I'm personally looking forward to the ability to securely spend a couple bucks to grab an item I haven't been able to grab in thousands of baal runs.

The removal of traits, disappointing. Exclusively online play disappointing, I'm sure, for some people. But skillpoint removal and RMT support? Think back to D2. 99.9% of skillpoint builds went like this: 1 point in the onepointwonders, max main attack skill and its synergies. Maybe max a buff once those are done. Is that true character customization? Not at all. Not even close! Driving character customization by the skills you pick makes much more sense in a game where you are limited to 6 out of hundreds.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the game will be continuously evolving. In order for the market not to become extremely saturated Blizzard will at the very least need to be releasing new items on a regular basis. We still have hundreds of skills to choose from and the potential for an awesome revamped skill rune system. 2 planned expansions and many patches in between leaves plenty of opportunity for Blizzard to revise / revamp / redo things which they have repeatedly proven willing to do.

The best news of all is that the D3 team is clearly in crunch mode. I am going to be shocked if it's not out by the end of the year. Beta within a matter of weeks. Try it before you knock it.

In my 15 years of playing Blizzard games never once have they released anything that wasn't stellar. I am confident that D3 will not be an exception.

I honestly went to bed last night a bit let down by the announcements. But after a night of sleep and a belly full of cheerios i feel about the same way as you. Of the 15+ years i've been playing blizz games i have yet to be disappointed (excluding WoW cataclysm which sucked cause all the good designers i think were on D3) and i dont think i'll be disappointed with D3.

Hell, i played world of warcraft, and absolutely, undeniably, dominated the auction house in WoW ending up with more money than i knew what to do with. If there's gonna be a real money AH, there's possiblilty for some decent chump change if blizz does it right.

But yeah, despite all the criticism people are saying i'm still excited and still buying it day 1 and still want in beta. The announcments are...weird... but i dont think it effects how i feel about the game as a whole really.

Wolfpaq777

01-08-2011, 19:44

so because d1 had no skill points we should be ok with taking a step back in d3 and not having them again? if d3 had no stash would it be ok cause d1 didnt and we all loved that game?

Is it a step back though?

Again, think back to how you spent your skill points in D2. 1 point in all the 1pt1ders(c), then max your primary attack skill & its synergy. Then dump your leftover points in generic leftover skill.

Popular builds that followed this template included

Hammerdin
Primary attack: blessed hammer (20)
Synergies: 3 (60)
Leftover: Holy Shield
1pt1ders: resistance auras

Done.

Wind Druid
Primary attack: Tornado (20)
Synergies: 3 (60)
Leftover: Oak Sage
1pt1ders: grizzly

Done.

Everyone who built either of these very popular hybrids spent their skillpoints EXACTLY the same way. How exactly is that customization?

Barb: 20 ww, 20 frenzy, 20 mastery, 20 BO, 1pt shout/battle command
Javazon: LF + synergies + 1pt valk
Sorc: main attack + synergies + 1pt warmth/tele/ice armor
Summoner: Skeleton mastery/melee/mages & revives + 1pt amp dmg

etc etc etc

My memory's a bit rusty because i haven't played the game in so long but you get the idea. How exactly were skill points a great feature again?

Remember Blizzcon 2010

(24 choose 7) * 6^7 = 97 billion builds.

Well now those numbers are

(20 choose 6) * 5^6 = 605 million builds per class.

I think we'll still manage to customize our characters just fine despite the lack of skillpoints.

Varquynne

01-08-2011, 19:45

As i remember reading, the RMAH is going to be regional, not global, so the asian guys will only be selling to other asians...

Good point - often overlooked about this system (as I'm sure are many others - both good and bad)

Klocwerk

01-08-2011, 19:54

Is it a step back though?

Again, think back to how you spent your skill points in D2. 1 point in all the 1pt1ders(c), then max your primary attack skill & its synergy. Then dump your leftover points in generic leftover skill.

Everyone who built either of these very popular hybrids spent their skillpoints EXACTLY the same way. How exactly is that customization?

Actually i think synergies significantly weakened D2 when they were introduced.
Before them you could pick a couple skills to max, but after they came along you HAD to max the synergies to be effective/competitive, effectively forcing everyone to the same builds.

Apocalypse

01-08-2011, 20:00

Everyone who built either of these very popular hybrids spent their skillpoints EXACTLY the same way. How exactly is that customization?

i never built those builds. maybe i am the only one who ever played diablo that did not have a hammerdin? i dont know i actually just played the game and built characters how i wanted to. i never looked up other players builds and copy pasted. i would be happier under a system that allowed for replayability, thats what diablo is all about and to me these new systems are killing it.

dimasong

01-08-2011, 20:11

Yeah, it's not like there's a global interconnected network that would let them access servers somewhere else... /sarcasm

Yeah it's not like there isn't IRS to consider

/sarcasm

Likely, blizzard will permit international sellers, but it will be withholding the 30% for IRS.

Chinese farmers are actually pretty rare in WoW these days. The bots are so accessible, a huge number of american users have put the chinese out of business. The chinese don't profit from farming. They profit from their black market websites where they resell what americans farm with bots.

So much dumb QQ in this thread, I can't even bring myself to write out proper rebuke.

All the whiners should go play some crap non-blizz game. Or maybe D2.

The changes are great.

I will be playing hardcore for fun and softcore for business AND fun. Thanks, gl.

popenfresh

01-08-2011, 20:19

So much dumb QQ in this thread, I can't even bring myself to write out proper rebuke.

Laziest way of pretending to look smart.

dimasong

01-08-2011, 20:27

Laziest way of pretending to look smart.

I agree. But to be honest, there had been too many great (and some not so great, but still correct) rebukes to all the whiners... I don't think I'd add any meaningful info to the discussion beyond the few points I listed in the previous post (which I make with full certainty as someone who wrote a damn paper on RMT in WoW just a few months ago).

Wolfpaq777

01-08-2011, 20:41

i never built those builds. maybe i am the only one who ever played diablo that did not have a hammerdin? i dont know i actually just played the game and built characters how i wanted to. i never looked up other players builds and copy pasted. i would be happier under a system that allowed for replayability, thats what diablo is all about and to me these new systems are killing it.

605,625,000 unique builds per class. Replayability is killed how?

Chorkstain

02-08-2011, 01:47

Yeah, actually, putting different amounts of points into different skills actually hampers customization in a strange way. Because think about it: if you put more points in one skill than in another, in many cases the increased power of the first skill will make the second skill redundant. Now all of the skills will ideally be scaled and balanced to each other. That bit, I like.

I still think a respec system could still have value. I haven't shaken the feeling that being able to switch skills at will will make it hard for me to appreciate the skills.

Apocalypse

02-08-2011, 01:52

605,625,000 unique builds per class. Replayability is killed how?

there is no need to make more than 5 characters now thats how. build one and switch skills whenever you want. soon enough (faster than d2) the "best" builds will be found and copied by everyone. in d2 (and other games like these) i would make multiples of the same class just build a different way, that is gone now. just a quick trip to town (and maybe not even that) and i am a new character

Godzillaz

02-08-2011, 02:56

there is no need to make more than 5 characters now thats how. build one and switch skills whenever you want. soon enough (faster than d2) the "best" builds will be found and copied by everyone. in d2 (and other games like these) i would make multiples of the same class just build a different way, that is gone now. just a quick trip to town (and maybe not even that) and i am a new character
With all the different combinations of abilities and runes there will undoubtedly be an enormous amount of viable skill combinations, and I doubt a definitive best will be found anytime soon. The sheer amount of experimentation that can be done is beyond any game I can come up with at the moment. I think you'll be plenty busy without having to level up 5,000 characters to try everything that might work.

Varquynne

02-08-2011, 03:04

there is no need to make more than 5 characters now thats how. build one and switch skills whenever you want. soon enough (faster than d2) the "best" builds will be found and copied by everyone. in d2 (and other games like these) i would make multiples of the same class just build a different way, that is gone now. just a quick trip to town (and maybe not even that) and i am a new character

Yep, the time investment in having to level up another character to experiment with a different build is certainly very much gone. You'll be able to try out that new build much quicker now. Experimentation can be on the fly. I think this is great.

Replayability for those that like to make a new character is decreased, yes, but it can instead be spent on actually playing the builds instead of leveling up that new hero to a point where it's feasible to assess the build's their viability.

Wolfpaq777

02-08-2011, 04:59

there is no need to make more than 5 characters now thats how. build one and switch skills whenever you want. soon enough (faster than d2) the "best" builds will be found and copied by everyone. in d2 (and other games like these) i would make multiples of the same class just build a different way, that is gone now. just a quick trip to town (and maybe not even that) and i am a new character

If you spent 1 minute playing every variation for ONE class, you'd be playing diablo 3 for 19 years (played time).

Who needs to level new characters? You already told us you're not the type to copy other people's builds, why do you care what other people do?

Apocalypse

02-08-2011, 14:30

With the amount of players that D3 will have the so called best build will be found very fast. Like you said if you spend 1 minute testing a build it would take….. well you have to take into account everyone trying different builds. Like you said (I said?) I don’t copy other players so their results wont matter to me what will is beating the game. i never grinded to 99, saw no point in it as it was very very VERY boring so I instead would make a new character with a whole new skill set. With D3 you could do this at least 3 times over with each class (did it the least with barb) but now after 5 characters I will have used EVERY single skill. Sure there is runes and I guess I could try every rune/skill combo but that means every single rune/skill combo needs to actually change the skill beyond reduced cost and more damage while being interesting.

Like I said before I am sure I will still get the game, been following it too long not to. I am also sure I will have fun with the game, the more I think about the changes the more the rage has calmed. I still don’t like the changes much but I am sure they will grow on me or at the least I will get used to them. So ya I will buy it, I will enjoy it, the life of the game will just be far shorter for me now. I will probably have moved on before they even announced the first xpac. Guess there is a chance a xpac could bring me back though assuming the added features were to my liking