DH vault overpowered?

[DrZoidberg]

From what i have heard vault is a somewhat overpowered skill right now seeing as how you can pass through enemies. It seems too have a short delay if any at all? That would make it a lot like d2's teleport if that's the case because you can just run by all the monsters. I realize she needs this skill to keep the hit and run type tactic, otherwise it would take away from her character type. Do you guys think a cooldown or longer cooldown(if she has one) would solve this?

[Sass]

Have you considered mana cost?

Right now, she uses the WD's mana and can keep it up. In gameplay, I'd imagine it'd be like a abrb leaping or a wiz teleporting: you can, but you won't be able to spam it.



If you can do it with little cost, then it's OP. Otherwise, it's an escape skill. She won't vault into a mob, and likely can't do it past doors and pits.

[DrZoidberg]

Actually never really considered mana cost or w.e it is the dh will use. My main concern was with rushing through mobs and rushing acts, I'm sure some people liked rushing but i did not. She could rush past mobs kill a couple things get mana and rush some more.(I'm sure mana will be changed though or i hope so anyway)

[Sass]

That's part of the problem here. We don't know if she also has a "leech" style mana system.

We also don't know how well she can keep vaulting through mobs. For all we know, it could suffer a defense penalty like Charge did. Block (if she has any) is cut to a third and then defense = 0.

She'll get hit left and right, and she isn't the tank type.




Speed and angles can avoid them for the most part, but it's only a matter of time she hits something that won't move (a big enemy perhaps?) or get hit too hard.

[Flux]

It was way OP in the blizzcon demo. Could do 4 or 5 of them in rapid succession, moving across 2 or 3 screens worth of monsters in like 1 second, for zero damage taken.

Then again, Entangling Shot and Molten Arrow were way OP also. And so were most of the Monks' skills last year, when he was the new, "show off all the godly stuff" character. That's just how Bliz rolls them in the demos, it seems.

For the final game, Vault would be "fixed" pretty easily, just by giving it a cooldown similar to teleport or spirit walk. That would probably be too harsh, since it's easy to vault and hit a corner or a barrel or something and stop cold, potentially right in the middle of a dozen monsters. If you couldn't vault a 2nd time to get out you'd die a lot on one mis-vault.

So maybe they could allow you to use it twice in a row before the cooldown hit, or give it a very high resource cost, or add a high chance for monsters to do damage when you vault through them. Also consider that Vault had multiple skill points in it, increasing the range. It would travel much less distance with just 1 point, making it far less OP.

[Glass]

If you couldn't vault a 2nd time to get out you'd die a lot on one mis-vault.

Best way to make people learn not to mis-vault :evil:

[Sass]

It worked when not doing a long WW in Chaos Sanc.:whistling:

[DrZoidberg]

I like Sass and Flux idea of taking additional damage or having lower def while in the rolling stage of the skill, but would you really trust rolling a glass cannon(without def or taking more damage) through a mob? Did you get hit at all while rolling flux? The 2 vaults in a row sounds more promising to me.

[Flux]

I don't think they even swung while in the vault. it went very quickly and I think maybe the DH was not targetable while in it. Probably it works like teleport, in terms of how the monsters processed it. At least in the demo.

That said, the monsters had low to/hit and slow reflexes, in most cases in the demo. It was made pretty easy. I had a few times with DH and Wiz, when going against bosses or Champions with Vortex, when I was sure I'd die, and would certainly have died with a comparable D2 char. But didn't, since I was able to shoot/cast at point blank range for a few seconds, even when surrounded.

But the real game will have much more dangerous monsters, etc. So improbable survival in the demo isn't necessarily a useful guide for long term.

[AtomicJ]

I was thinking the same thing about Vault. If they would just cut down on the distance, say by half or so, I think it would make a world of difference.

Also, get rid of the "dark magic" effect. Just make it a normal acrobatic flip. :\

[Flux]

I was thinking the same thing about Vault. If they would just cut down on the distance, say by half or so, I think it would make a world of difference.

Vault was level 5 in the demo. More points add distance to it, as can be seen in the description, which is something like, "Tumble acrobatically X feet."

How this might be modified or balanced is addressed, sort of, in the big movement skills thread in the main d3 forum.

[konfeta]

Heh. Vault with 20 points in it must be funnay.

[The Rockman]

If 5 points = 1/2 a Screen per vault (going by Flux post) then 20 points = 2 screens per Vault *wooshing noise as a Demon hunter Tumbles by at supersonic speed* what was that?

[blackbisket]

Flux was their a rune slot under vault or do you know?

[The Rockman]

blackbisket all non passive skills will take a rune once released (this will include vault). But the monk and DH don't have any Rune Slots in the Blizzcon Build due to that part not being done yet.

[Flux]

If 5 points = 1/2 a Screen per vault (going by Flux post) then 20 points = 2 screens per Vault *wooshing noise as a Demon hunter Tumbles by at supersonic speed* what was that?

That's something I mentioned on the movement skills thread (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=786482). I'll quote me, because me.


DH's Vault -- more points = further. At blizzcon demo it had 5 points and was to about the edge of the screen. No telling if that range will remain in the final game, but it should require a few points to move a good distance, but not be incremental, like, 1 yard per point, or it would feel like a rip off.

I don't see any reason to max out Vault, unless it starts adding damage or something. Maybe they could make a cool down between uses, and more points would lessen that as well as/after the range was increased. Or they could make the speed of it less than flashing fast, and more points would increase the speed also. Or more points reduces the resource cost. You really wouldn't want more range than the 5 points gave at Blizzcon, since moving off the visible screen would take you right into other monsters.

Rune effects? +damage, leaves a trail of fire behind, shows multiple DHs moving in different directions to confuse enemies, stun/knockback on ending point, etc.

The way the skill was set for the Blizzcon demo doesn't tell us much about the final game, but I can't see 15 or 20 skill points just for more distance. That would be pretty big diminishing returns, when you're looking at a point for just another yard. But other effects, like +damage, lower cost, confuse/stun monsters, decreased cool down, etc... seem like rune bonuses.

So what would more points in vault do to make them worth spending, without seeming like a cheesy rip off for just a tiny bit more distance? (I bet this is the sort of question the D3 team chokes on, too.)

[blackbisket]

Maybe they will cap it at 5 pts and let runes go to work after that.

[Sass]

They still need an incentive to stat it past a one point wonder.



From just using the vault effect, it is a one pointer. More points needs to have a secondary effect, or more, to give reason to put points in it. Past that, runes can spice it up, but if that happens even at 1 point, you run into the same problem.


level req before a rune can be used? :O

[TheThirdMan]

I would think there would have to be lvl reqs on the runes. At least I hope there are.

[Flux]

The way they showed runes in the panel at blizzcon, level 1-3 were normal, 4-5 were NM, and 6-7 were hell. In terms of when you'd potentially be finding them, and one assumes, using them. So I'm sure they'll have clvl reqs skewed along those lines.

Something like 2, 5, 15, 25, 35, 40, 50, 55. You could use level 2 on the clvl 9 chars in the blizzcon demo, and they listed no clvl req, but that's just in the demo. who knows about the final game.

[hellfurion]

just wait until they announce the DH resource pool. if assume that it will be balanced and will work in the same essence of leap and teleport. the cost, cooldowns, etc.

[Rozinig]

One major factor with teleport was the ablility to pass "over" walls as long as vault can't do that it won't be nearly as OP especially if the map lay outs are similar to the Catacombs of D2.

[Badosie]

I remember at blizzcon I could vault 3-4 times before going oom but I regened so fast anyway. They'll prob add a cd to like tele.

[Neinball]

One of the thing big to consider was that the DH didn't have a resource system in the '10 demo or in the gameplay videos. It had mana but it regened so fast it wasn't a hindrance at all. Once they implement the hatred/discipline resource I'm sure it will be toned down quite a bit.

[Komskies]

I always find these discussions about whether a skill is overpowered rather silly considering the game isn't even out yet, let alone a beta test.