View Full Version : Viable v1.13 build or not?
Greetings,
I'm just about to start a new Amazon, and I just want to see what more experienced players think of my proposed build. I like javazons in general, but that often leaves my second weapon slot vacant, because they're just so good to play untwinked. So I'm toying with the idea of a hybrizon so I can add a bow to my arsenal—but such builds seem to be a thing of the past.
Anyway, I'm thinking of the following:
1 in Jab, Impale, & Fend (the first and last of which can be useful on occasion).
20 in Charged Strike & Lightning Fury (plus 1 in all prerequisites).
9 in Valkyrie (with 1 in all prerequisites).
1 in Critical Strike, 20 in Penetrate, 4 in Pierce.
20 in Guided Arrow (with 1 in all prerequisites).
I realise that build has some obvious short-fallings, but a myriad of +skill gear can fix that—which I have in abeyance thanks to GoMule. And the over-dependence on Penetrate might seem dumb, given my beefed-up Guided Arrow and Lightning Fury, but I figure it will help with immunes, and will compliment Charged Strike, Jab and Fend.
I guess what I'm asking is: although this is hardly an ideal build, do you think this build would be playable throughout Hell? Because I intended for this to be my first character that I work all the way to level 99. Thanks.
If your going jab/fend I don't see the point of guided arrow. It's not the best choice for a physical ranged attack to begin with.
My only thought was that it would give me something to put in my alternate weapon slot: a bow. Given that most javazon builds are done after 70 or so skill points are invested, I just figured I put the rest into Guided Arrow for help with bosses and immunes.
Edit: Hmm, what about simple 1 point in Guided Arrow? With only 4 points in the Bow tree, that frees up a lot more for investment elsewhere. But my question then becomes, is Guided Arrow still useful after such measly investment. Thoughts?
While that build does seem viable it sounds like immunes would still be frustrating using GA as backup because it's single target and slow, plus it does not work with pierce which is then somewhat wasted points... Also my opinion is that the valk/decoy and passives are good enough as 1 pointers leaving gear to increase them and investing the hard points in your damage skills instead where they are much more effective.
Honestly though if you want to go jav/bow hybrid then check out the fishyzon guide if you haven't already; it seems to be *from experience* one of the best combination of skills so that your gear complements both sides, seeing as +skills will then improve your bow damage as well as jav.
My version of the fishyz only puts 20 points in FA and stops there, because considering the freeze I felt the damage was fine with enough +skills and ias to handle packs of fast immunes, while leaving the lightning skills stronger as you can get a third synergy. I much prefer to beef up the lightning side and have the bow only as a backup rather than balancing both. You also still have jab to deal with single immunes, and the occasional cold/light immune boss.
Cheers for that.
Edit: After thoroughly reading through the Fishyzon guide—and doing a bit more research on the side—I'm starting to see just how stupid my proposed build above would be. 20 Penetrate sounds fantastic on paper, but from the looks of it most skills get their attack rating bumped anyway, and +skills will take it to around 8–10 anyway.
My only concern with the Fishyzon guide is that it's specifically tailored to the running the Worldstone Keep and Baal. I don't want a build that is "blinkered" like that, I want a build that can be used for anything. So here's what I'm thinking now:
Javelin & Spear Skills
20 Charged Strike (bosses)
20 Lightning Fury (crowds)
1 in all prerequisites.
Passive & Magic Skills
10 Valkyrie (tank)
2 Pierce (which with Razortail and +skills will be at 100%)
1 in all prerequisites.
Bow & Crossbow Skills
20 Cold Arrow (Lightning Immunes + Synergy)
20 Freezing Arrow (Lightning Immunes)
1 Ice Arrow (as a prerequisite)
As well as...
1 Magic Arrow
1 Multiple Shot
1 Guided Arrow
1 Strafe
... which will +skills should all be useful enough in specific areas. And I must say, that build is looking kind of awesome on paper.
I had intentions of using an Act 1 hireling—but given my skill set, that is probably redundant now. Any thoughts on which is the best alternative? Or could I still get by with a rouge scout at my side? I kind of had my heart set on one, because I've used all the other mercs with other characters and was looking for a change.
That's the entire point of the build is to have a light jav that can run *anywhere* _including_ wsk, not exclusively... The guide only makes a point about it because it can, since the whole idea of having the bow skill with splash damage is for dealing with packs of immunes without infinity where jab or guided or whatever else would be way too slow and ineffective. Once you get infinity you can ditch the whole thing and just respec to pure light, but in the meantime +1 for this build because she can solo anything and everything in the game including packs of nasty gloams/souls, not just poor helpless cows heh.
Though after trying the original fishyz and lacking enough ligh damage to call myself a light jav, then modifying it to using FA without synergy, I'm actually thinking of testing fire arrow instead. Gloams/souls can't be frozen anyway, and have 33 cold res vs 0 to fire.
As far as the merc goes, I find the rogues pretty blah unless you're willing to deck her out with faith... Better use is a A2 might merc with insight, because as you will notice FA is extremely mana intensive ( understatement even), and the might will increase his helping power vs immunes as well as your jab for the occasional immune to both light/cold.
Though after trying the original fishyz and lacking enough ligh damage to call myself a light jav, then modifying it to using FA without synergy, I'm actually thinking of testing fire arrow instead. Gloams/souls can't be frozen anyway, and have 33 cold res vs 0 to fire.
I'd be very interested to hear how that turns out. I was thinking of maybe ditching one of the frost arrow skills in favour of fire, just so I could have three elements at the ready. But I don't have enough experience with Hell, which makes me hesitant to ditch traditional builds. I want this build of mine to be the crowning achievement that gets me to level 99 after all.
I think Fire Arrow with Lightning Fury sounds pretty nice. Frozen Arrow sucks up ALOT of mana fast. Lightning Fury sucks up alot, but it only takes a few to wipe out an entire mob so it's not nearly as bad.
Only bad thing I can think about Fire Arrow vs Immolation Arrow is that conversion to pure fire dmg would reduce your mana leech. But it still works very well, considering ALOT of monsters in hell have some or alot of physical resistance.
Well, if I recall correctly, Fire Arrow (without synergies) will end up doing much less damage than Immolation Arrow—and that's more of a concern. Having 20 in Freezing Arrow and Immolation Arrow sounds nice, but the lack of synergies in the bow tree might render both skills mostly useless anyway.
*Grrrr* I just don't know what to do :-(.
At the end of the day, I can always experiment and respec.
Edit: Wait a second, isn't Immolation Arrow the one with the delay? Well, that probably rules that out. And neither Fire Arrow nor Exploding Arrow do enough damage on their own. Maybe a trihybrizon (or maybe that should just be "tribrizon") is asking for too much.
Actually when I said Fire Arrow I was in fact thinking of Exploding Arrow (lol I had the splash damage like FA in mind)...
Wait a second, isn't Immolation Arrow the one with the delay? Well, that probably rules that out. And neither Fire Arrow nor Exploding Arrow do enough damage on their own.
Looking at a 1.13 skill calc* and crunching numbers to get an idea that's also my concern.
*[http://diablo3.ingame.de/spiel/skills/calc/index.php?lang=en&char=ama]
For example my unsynergized slvl 34 FA (20base +2bowskills & +12allskills) does 701-712; with 70ias (I know, missing 5! for the next bp...) on a -10 base speed bow that's still 9fpa, for a grand total of 1907.5 dps average. Compared to that, unsynergized Exploding Arrow does nowhere near that much at the same skill level, and though Immolation Arrow by itself would come close at just over 1K plus the afterburn, it's stuck at 1 second cast delay so no room for improvement without spending precious skill points. So at a glance I don't think any of the fire skills would really offer any advantage over cold even considering the 33 resistance difference when gloams are concerned... Someone please correct me if I'm missing something.
To be honest if I were you I would just build according to the guide, or my unsynergized version for now since you know it works right out of the box, and perhaps experiment later. I've got 1 free respec and a token handy, so I might still test either exploding or immolation arrow just for fun in case a few quick calculations didn't cover everything.
EDIT: Nevermind, Explosive Arrow is just crap.
One other thing I'd like to know, which is a little off topic. If I craft a set of gloves (i.e. Blood Gloves or Casters Gloves) do the mods on the pairs of gloves used remain, or do they get re-rolled?
Edit: And just for clarification, every since item (save for javelins and throwing knives), regardless of their quality or whether or not they are set items or uniques, can have at least one socket in them, right?
One other thing I'd like to know, which is a little off topic. If I craft a set of gloves (i.e. Blood Gloves or Casters Gloves) do the mods on the pairs of gloves used remain, or do they get re-rolled?
None of the mods will remain, a completely new set of mods will appear on the item. So if you find a nice pair of gloves with + to skills and increased attack speed, they may not have either of those mods after being used in a crafting recipe.
Edit: And just for clarification, every since item (save for javelins and throwing knives), regardless of their quality or whether or not they are set items or uniques, can have at least one socket in them, right?
Gloves, belts, rings, amulets, and boots cannot have sockets. Quality (Normal. Superior, etc) has no effect on the amount of sockets and item can get. Sets and Uniques may only have one socket.
None of the mods will remain, a completely new set of mods will appear on the item. So if you find a nice pair of gloves with + to skills and increased attack speed, they may not have either of those mods after being used in a crafting recipe.
Yikes. Thanks for that. It's funny you mentioned increased attack speed: the fact that my Amazon will be switching between a bow and javelins probably means the speed breakpoints for both weapons won't be aligned. I'll have to look into that.
Gloves, belts, rings, amulets, and boots cannot have sockets. Quality (Normal. Superior, etc) has no effect on the amount of sockets and item can get. Sets and Uniques may only have one socket.
I wasn't aware that gloves or boots couldn't have sockets, but I did know about everything else you mentioned.
Aldeth the Foppish Idiot
15-06-2010, 18:02
Re: Fire arrow skills. I made a hybrid and used Kuko as my bow switch. It was hell-viable, especially in low player count games. In high player count games, the damage really wasn't there though, so I tended to play solo. I have never tried a combo with LF, Immo, and Freezing Arrow though. I don't think that would work, as both Immo and Freezing would be seriously underpowered without exploiting synergies.
Re: Fire arrow skills. I made a hybrid and used Kuko as my bow switch. It was hell-viable, especially in low player count games. In high player count games, the damage really wasn't there though, so I tended to play solo. I have never tried a combo with LF, Immo, and Freezing Arrow though. I don't think that would work, as both Immo and Freezing would be seriously underpowered without exploiting synergies.
That's too bad, it would be nice to have some fire skills at the ready. Fortunately, the ice path looks solid on its own.
Speaking of good fortune, the only way I can theoretically get my Valkyrie up to Level 17 for the elusive War Pike would be to get +3 Passive & Magic Skills on a crafted set of gloves. I don't suppose there's a small chance they could be rolled with +3 Bow & Crossbow Skills as well, because that would really help...
That's too bad, it would be nice to have some fire skills at the ready. Fortunately, the ice path looks solid on its own.
Speaking of good fortune, the only way I can theoretically get my Valkyrie up to Level 17 for the elusive War Pike would be to get +3 Passive & Magic Skills on a crafted set of gloves. I don't suppose there's a small chance they could be rolled with +3 Bow & Crossbow Skills as well, because that would really help...
No, you can't roll anything like that. +Skill trees mods are all in one giant family of skill mods like the Vicious and Cruel weapon mods, and you can't roll two mods from the same family on the same item.
My suggestion: put your leftover points in Valkyrie. It looks like you might be able to max it (albeit at level 9X), but I don't remember the pre-reqs for LF off the top of my head.
Also, more on sockets: Any magic item can have up to 2 sockets by using Lazruk or various cube recipes. Magic items also have a specific prefix family that gives up to 4 sockets. Rare items can be given a single socket using Lazruk or the socket recipe, but can get 2 if they roll the single prefix from the above family allowed on Rares. This also holds true for Crafted items, that roll more or less just like Rares.
No, you can't roll anything like that. +Skill trees mods are all in one giant family of skill mods like the Vicious and Cruel weapon mods, and you can't roll two mods from the same family on the same item.
Damn. Oh well, I'm sure there are other useful affixes. By the way, when it says that a crafted item can have anywhere from 1–4 random affixes, that obviously means any combinations of 1–4 prefixes and/or suffixes right? So:
1 prefix and 2 suffixes, 4 prefixes, 3 prefixes and 1 suffix, and so on, are all possible.
My suggestion: put your leftover points in Valkyrie. It looks like you might be able to max it (albeit at level 9X), but I don't remember the pre-reqs for LF off the top of my head.
There's a thought.
Also, more on sockets: Any magic item can have up to 2 sockets by using Lazruk or various cube recipes. Magic items also have a specific prefix family that gives up to 4 sockets. Rare items can be given a single socket using Lazruk or the socket recipe, but can get 2 if they roll the single prefix from the above family allowed on Rares. This also holds true for Crafted items, that roll more or less just like Rares.
I'm not 100% sure what that means. Are you referring to the "Mechanic's", "Artisan's" and "Jeweler's" prefixes? I was under the impression they had to have spawned on an item when it was dropped. But if I'm reading what you've said right, you're saying a compatible item could—at the cost of getting another potential prefix—be given more sockets than it otherwise would get. The drawback being that the item ends up with a token prefix that doesn't augment the character in any way, and just gets a suffix and one more socket instead.
Edit: Doesn't help me with respect to boots and gloves though—the pieces of gear that I just can't seem to nail down for this potential build. But it does expand my build options for other apparel. Back to the drawing board...
... Sets and Uniques may only have one socket.
http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/sets/sets5.shtml#immortalking
not usefult for an amazon
but some set items have more than one socket
Aldeth the Foppish Idiot
16-06-2010, 16:32
That's too bad, it would be nice to have some fire skills at the ready. Fortunately, the ice path looks solid on its own.
If you really want some fire damage, you can always go with a bow that fires explosive arrows like Kuko. Solid damage through most of NM, always hits, mana free. Not something you'd want to rely on in hell difficulty, but not a bad weapon for leveling when your other arrow skills won't be fully developed yet.
Speaking of good fortune, the only way I can theoretically get my Valkyrie up to Level 17 for the elusive War Pike would be to get +3 Passive & Magic Skills on a crafted set of gloves. I don't suppose there's a small chance they could be rolled with +3 Bow & Crossbow Skills as well, because that would really help...
Well, magic (blue) gloves can be purchased/gambled/found with the +3 Passive and Magic Skills. You could just keep them in your stash, summon your Valkyrie in town, switch back to your more useful gloves, and presto! Level 17 Valk! Unfortunately, there's no way to get +skills to separate trees on any item, so a +3 passive/+3 bow gloves are entirely out of the question.
Unfortnately, not only can you never roll +skills of different trees together on any magic/rare/craft, but crafted gloves also cannot roll +3skill... The best combo you could ever craft would be +2skill/20ias; the highest of those two is a lvl43 affix, which means you would have to craft an item with a final lvl64 or higher in order to have that affix level possible. Trust me, I tried crafting gloves aiming for ilvl43 for a long time thinking that's how it worked and never got more than +1skill/10ias. After looking into it using the affix calc from indiablo.de, I realized the crafted item actually had come out at least ilvl64 to roll alvl43 mods. Alot of people simply aim for ilvl71 minimum anyway to guarantee 4 extra mods so that covers it.
As far as the valk goes, like I mentionned in earlier post I personally wouldn't bother investing more than the initial point. She's perfectly decent even under that magical lvl17 everyone shoots for, so don't worry about hitting a particular point since she's infinitely recastable, and your merc is who you should be paying special attention to. In my mind the hard points are much, much better spent dumped into a lightning or cold synergy after once you're done maxing the main skills.
Overall after this discussion I've decided to forget about any tests with fire skills as they just don't seem to offer any advantage over my current build, which I find extremely versatile and effective already.
If you really want some fire damage, you can always go with a bow that fires explosive arrows like Kuko. Solid damage through most of NM, always hits, mana free. Not something you'd want to rely on in hell difficulty, but not a bad weapon for leveling when your other arrow skills won't be fully developed yet.
That might be fun to toy around with. I'll look into that, thanks.
Well, magic (blue) gloves can be purchased/gambled/found with the +3 Passive and Magic Skills. You could just keep them in your stash, summon your Valkyrie in town, switch back to your more useful gloves, and presto! Level 17 Valk! Unfortunately, there's no way to get +skills to separate trees on any item, so a +3 passive/+3 bow gloves are entirely out of the question.
There's a thought. And with so many muling aids out there, it's very possible to mule without any mules, so to speak. But...
Unfortnately, not only can you never roll +skills of different trees together on any magic/rare/craft, but crafted gloves also cannot roll +3skill... The best combo you could ever craft would be +2skill/20ias; the highest of those two is a lvl43 affix, which means you would have to craft an item with a final lvl64 or higher in order to have that affix level possible. Trust me, I tried crafting gloves aiming for ilvl43 for a long time thinking that's how it worked and never got more than +1skill/10ias. After looking into it using the affix calc from indiablo.de, I realized the crafted item actually had come out at least ilvl64 to roll alvl43 mods. Alot of people simply aim for ilvl71 minimum anyway to guarantee 4 extra mods so that covers it.
... it looks like I'll have to rethink my numbers yet again in light of what MFDeath kindly pointed out above. You know something? I really hope Diablo III provides even more room for discussion, analysis, and so forth, as Diablo II has.
But according to the Arreat Summit, +3 skills can be rolled on gloves. So, gloves could, but crafted gloves, couldn't. Hm, what other mods can be rolled on crafted gloves?
+ 2 skills and + 20% Increased Attack Speed sounds nice. If mana leech and other useful mods could also appear, then missing out on a bonus skill point is okay. Otherwise, I might just try and find the appropriate magic gloves.
As far as the valk goes, like I mentionned in earlier post I personally wouldn't bother investing more than the initial point. She's perfectly decent even under that magical lvl17 everyone shoots for, so don't worry about hitting a particular point since she's infinitely recastable, and your merc is who you should be paying special attention to. In my mind the hard points are much, much better spent dumped into a lightning or cold synergy after once you're done maxing the main skills.
I keep telling myself that actually. For some reason, that's just ingrained in my mind, because it's almost become an unwritten rule: "Either get your Valkyrie to level 17 or don't bother". With enough +skills, my build will probably have one that's not too far below that mark... but then I think about how I always tackle the game in "/players8" and think maybe I just shouldn't muck with that rule.
Besides, it's impossible to invest in more cold damage syngeries, since with Cold Arrow maxed, all I can do is boost the duration of Freezing Arrow by, what, 1 second per 10 skill points—forget that. But, a Nightwing's Veil with +skills and a cold damage boost would be ideal!
Overall after this discussion I've decided to forget about any tests with fire skills as they just don't seem to offer any advantage over my current build, which I find extremely versatile and effective already.
Yeah, I think you're right on the money there.
Damn. Oh well, I'm sure there are other useful affixes. By the way, when it says that a crafted item can have anywhere from 1–4 random affixes, that obviously means any combinations of 1–4 prefixes and/or suffixes right? So:
1 prefix and 2 suffixes, 4 prefixes, 3 prefixes and 1 suffix, and so on, are all possible.
I'm pretty sure you still can't have more than 3 prefixes or 3 suffixes, and also no more than 4 total mods.
I'm not 100% sure what that means. Are you referring to the "Mechanic's", "Artisan's" and "Jeweler's" prefixes? I was under the impression they had to have spawned on an item when it was dropped. But if I'm reading what you've said right, you're saying a compatible item could—at the cost of getting another potential prefix—be given more sockets than it otherwise would get. The drawback being that the item ends up with a token prefix that doesn't augment the character in any way, and just gets a suffix and one more socket instead.
Yes, those can spawn on items. Mechanic's can spawn on Magic or Rare items and gives 1 or 2 sockets. Artisan's and Jeweler's can also spawn on Magic items and give them 3 or 4 sockets respectively. On Magic items that's nothing special, on Rare items the extra socket could very well be worth it if you want to stack mods above their normal maximum for a rare (an extreme example would be a blood axe with 590% ED and 70% IAS, technically possible albeit ridiculously unlikely).
That's not the only way to put sockets on Magic/Rare items, though. Lazruk and the Cube can both make socketed Magic/Rare items, and in both cases you gain 1-2 sockets for Magic items and 1 socket for Rare items. However, these sockets don't take up a prefix. This is especially notable when people look for +3 tree/+25 PDR circlets to take to Lazruk and put 2 sockets in for more mods.
I'm pretty sure you still can't have more than 3 prefixes or 3 suffixes, and also no more than 4 total mods.
Yes, those can spawn on items. Mechanic's can spawn on Magic or Rare items and gives 1 or 2 sockets. Artisan's and Jeweler's can also spawn on Magic items and give them 3 or 4 sockets respectively. On Magic items that's nothing special, on Rare items the extra socket could very well be worth it if you want to stack mods above their normal maximum for a rare (an extreme example would be a blood axe with 590% ED and 70% IAS, technically possible albeit ridiculously unlikely).
That's not the only way to put sockets on Magic/Rare items, though. Lazruk and the Cube can both make socketed Magic/Rare items, and in both cases you gain 1-2 sockets for Magic items and 1 socket for Rare items. However, these sockets don't take up a prefix. This is especially notable when people look for +3 tree/+25 PDR circlets to take to Lazruk and put 2 sockets in for more mods.
Bloody hell, that's incredible. Gees, there's just so much to remember.
On an unrelated note, I can't remember if "-n% Requirements" mods actually just apply to the weapon or item of apparel they spawn on, or to everything equipped.
I'm think of a Nightwing's Veil helmet (-50% requirements) and Gore Ride boots (-25% requirements). Will one or the other, when equipped first, make the other's strength requirement even lower? Obviously, I want to get away with the lowest strength possible in my Amazon.
-Requirements is strictly for that item. If it applied to everything, everyone would use Tyrael's Might.
-Requirements is strictly for that item. If it applied to everything, everyone would use Tyrael's Might.
True enough. Cheers.
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