Skill runes an Awesome... pain in the ***

[theeliminator]

So after posting a reply on Arkahn's 7 skills- chose wisely topic over one the Wizard page. I got to thinking what a pain it must be to make all these skills do different things with runes. I now see why they didn't have them in the blizcon build. I also could see them just removing the whole idea in general from the game due to the problems implementing it. (Thank goodness they have 2 years to figure it all out)

Here is what sparked this topic. If Teleport with Hydra rune makes a "mirror image" of yourself then why do you need the spell mirror image? I know now why they cut the skill list in half. Could you imagine the nightmare it would be to try to make 5 alternate versions of 30 active skills (per class). That’s 150 alternative versions. At least now they only have to make (about) 18 active skills per class meaning only 90 alternative versions.

LOL only 90, if they pull this off Diablo 3 will have more than 450 skills.

[Romak]

If Teleport with Hydra rune makes a "mirror image" of yourself then why do you need the spell mirror image?

Instead of that, ask yourself
"If Teleport with Hydra rune makes a "mirror image" of yourself then what does mirror image do with a Hydra rune in it?"

You compare a skill with a skill rune inside it to a skill with no skill rune inside it. That's an unfair comparison. Maybe mirror image with Hydra rune does 3 mirror images in 1 cast instead of only 1? Then maybe it evens out.

Also, I don't understand what's the problem with variety.

[Sass]

That 450 skills is great! It's a far cry from the 150 in d2 (classic still). XP games would add even more variety.

And does the mirror image even minion stack if you tele? Even if it does or doesn't, Tele/Hydra gives you minion stack, which is awesome for a wiz.


I love the runes / skills. One of the first things I'm likely to do is see what works with what else and how. And various levels of runes? Oh boy.

[trashX]

thats actually the cool part about skill runes, that they make some skills overlap. This way you can even a character out. So You don't actually have to "waste" points in mirror image, but you want a clone of yourself. You're getting tele anyway so bam you have both skills now. Multi strike rune in fire bomb and you're no longer a close combat specialized WD, you can fight long distance too.

This way noone is just one type of character, but you kind of pick a main and can either enhance that with runes, or even out your weakneses

[Mad Mantis]

Let's not bypass the world filter next time we make a thread, ok?

[Zarniwoop]

The problem is that like most builds, only about 1/4 of those will be widely used. If there's 450, probably about 1/20th will be widely used (if that).

[Moonfrost]

I now see why they didn't have them in the blizcon build. I also could see them just removing the whole idea in general from the game due to the problems implementing it.
The reason they didn't have runes in the Blizzcon build is because runes are among the last things they do for each class, as the runes as entirely dependant on the skills being finalized. If a rune is done and the skill it's based on changes, then the rune needs to be scrapped and redone with the recent skill change in mind. In order to not waste time, they save the runes for last.

As Jay mentioned when talking about the runes during one of the D3 panels, the team absolutely wants them in the game because they've already spent so much time on them, so I don't think they'll try to dodge the effort required to do them right.


If Teleport with Hydra rune makes a "mirror image" of yourself then why do you need the spell mirror image? [...] if they pull this off Diablo 3 will have more than 450 skills.
Their effect might be similar but all the details are not. What if the spell Mirror Image is given a rune that allows the images to actually deal damage? Such a change alone would make the skill functionally different, as you'd use MI offensively, whereas the Teleport would be mainly defensively. Conversely, if the Teleport skill is given some kind of attack rune then you'd start using it offensively, which instead makes it overlap with some of your other offensive skill.

D3 will definitely have a lot of skill variations, but that doesn't necessarily mean the skills will all be very different. There will likely be a lot of overlap, but if two abilities overlap then you're suddenly given a reason to change one of those skills into something else. In short, you're given plenty of customization through runes, which is perhaps more important than basic skill functionality.

[RWHEEZY]

Well if that's the case at least blizzard is already addressing fanbase need for more build variety by increasing the raw number of builds available even if say a quarter of them will only be used.

[Doppel]

So after posting a reply on Arkahn's 7 skills- chose wisely topic over one the Wizard page. I got to thinking what a pain it must be to make all these skills do different things with runes. I now see why they didn't have them in the blizcon build. I also could see them just removing the whole idea in general from the game due to the problems implementing it. (Thank goodness they have 2 years to figure it all out)

Here is what sparked this topic. If Teleport with Hydra rune makes a "mirror image" of yourself then why do you need the spell mirror image? I know now why they cut the skill list in half. Could you imagine the nightmare it would be to try to make 5 alternate versions of 30 active skills (per class). That’s 150 alternative versions. At least now they only have to make (about) 18 active skills per class meaning only 90 alternative versions.

LOL only 90, if they pull this off Diablo 3 will have more than 450 skills.

Not to underestimate the work involved but for the most part those runes don't really change skills that much. To say that they effectively turn 90 skills into 450 skills is exaggerated (you might as well multiply that with 5 more or so, considering quality of runes) Its not like skills will behave totally different when runes are attached to them, one will make an attack hit more then once, another will increase the damage done, another increase criticals, etc,... The concept of each rune and what it does will probably remain the same throughout the majority of skills. They're for the most part passive modifiers (like many modifiers found on items in for example D2), but with custom animations per skill (i think) and a whole lot of balancing.

[theeliminator]

Maybe mirror image with Hydra rune does 3 mirror images in 1 cast instead of only 1? Then maybe it evens out.

Mirror image already gives you more than one image. If all the rune does is give you one more image it would be just like ranking up that skill, which from what bliz has said about the runes, is not the goal. The goal is to make the spell work different.


Also, I don't understand what's the problem with variety.

There is no problem with variety outside of the fact that it will take a ton of work for bliz to get them right.


You don't actually have to "waste" points in mirror image

Is this really the mentality you want when making skills? (not a real quote)Jay Wilson - We will give them mirror image as a low level skill, then when they get to teleport they can un-train it and just use hydra rune... That's not sound skill design.


Let's not bypass the world filter next time we make a thread, ok?

Didn't even know there was a filter, I apologize


The problem is that like most builds; only about 1/4 of those will be widely used. If there's 450, probably about 1/20th will be widely used (if that).

I agree, this is a problem, one I hope they can work it out in the two years they have. Hopefully bliz can make each skill with each rune build viable.


The reason they didn't have runes in the Blizzcon build is because...

If the only reason was cause they are the last thing to do for a character then why were they in last year’s Blizzcon build? Jay Wilson did say that runes are A: a lot of work, and B: That they were having problems trying to make rune effects for skills that really aren't ready.


I don't think they'll try to dodge the effort required to do them right.

I hope not, because the runes are really what are going to make D3 have such depth.


What if the spell Mirror Image is given a rune that allows the images to actually deal damage?
This is a scary thought. Could you imagine fighting some wizard in PvP and him bust out a spell where 4 clones are attacking you with some kind of cold damage (aka slowing) spell?


To say that they effectively turn 90 skills into 450 skills is exaggerated

Bliz has said that is their goal. To make each rune have a major impact on how the spell works. I do remember the runes they showed in the past some didn't seem like they changed much. So Skull of flames bounces a few times, on paper that don't sound like a major changes but in terms of gameplay it is.

[Moonfrost]

If the only reason was cause they are the last thing to do for a character then why were they in last year’s Blizzcon build?
I'm guessing because of two things:

They announced skill runes that year and wanted to show people how they worked.
At that time they didn't realize how much extra work doing the runes meant, so later on they changed their development plan to avoid pointless timesinks.
It's not unusual that developers change their minds from time to time. Blizzard developers in particular are known for their iterative processes where they redo things over and over until they nail them.

[trashX]

Is this really the mentality you want when making skills? (not a real quote)Jay Wilson - We will give them mirror image as a low level skill, then when they get to teleport they can un-train it and just use hydra rune... That's not sound skill design.


Sorry that didnt come out right, what I meant was that you can get certain abilities without actually fully investing in them. So maybe you like what "nova"( a knockback attack i just invented) does, but you like the way you fire a fire ball. Without having to skill nova you add knockback to you prefered fighting style.

Nova however isnt a lesser skill now, since if you add runes to it you can make it stronger if you wish.

Same thing with mirror image and tele. Mirror image as a standalone skill may be rather weak and a bad choice compared to tele+rune. But add runes to mirror image and standalone tele will pale in comparison.

You cannot compare runeless skills with rune imbued skills. Obviously the latter will always be better.

It all boils down to this:
Runes alow more diversity, by allowing some skills to overlap each other(while not "covering" each other). It opens several small "skill paths" you can take.

[TheDux]

The way Tele+Hydra would work vs Mirror Image owuld probably something along the lines of (numbers are just to make a point, probably not near balanced):

Tele+Hydra level 1 (poor) = 1 Image with 10% Caster's HP
MI Rank 1 = 1 Image with 20% caster's HP
Tele+Hydra Level 3 = 1 Image with 20% Caster's HP
MI Rank 3 = 1 Image with 60% Caster's Health.
Tele+Hydra Level 5 (if it goes up that high) = 1 Image wit 30% caster's HP.
MI Rank 5 = 1 image with 100% HP.

Obviously Tele+Hydra would not work as well at creating decoys as Mirror Image, but if you do not want to invest in Mirror Image you can still have a minor version of the effect.

I honestly think that runes will act more as a bonus to the ability rather than drastically altering the ability's use.

[TheDux]

I would also like to add that the "level 5" rune will most likely be found later game. So when Tele could have a weak Rank 5 MI effect, MI could have been fully effective MUCH earlier in game.

[theeliminator]

The way Tele+Hydra would work vs Mirror Image owuld probably something along the lines of (numbers are just to make a point, probably not near balanced):

Tele+Hydra level 1 (poor) = 1 Image with 10% Caster's HP
MI Rank 1 = 1 Image with 20% caster's HP
Tele+Hydra Level 3 = 1 Image with 20% Caster's HP
MI Rank 3 = 1 Image with 60% Caster's Health.
Tele+Hydra Level 5 (if it goes up that high) = 1 Image wit 30% caster's HP.
MI Rank 5 = 1 image with 100% HP.

Obviously Tele+Hydra would not work as well at creating decoys as Mirror Image, but if you do not want to invest in Mirror Image you can still have a minor version of the effect.

I honestly think that runes will act more as a bonus to the ability rather than drastically altering the ability's use.

This is my problem with the new MI its only one image. I would have liked it a lot better if they left it the way it was. I know they could give you more images with a rune but that just seems like something they should have put as you ranked up the skill.

[Deckard Cain]

I like that MI is now only 1 image. This means that runes will have a fairly drastic effect on the spell. You can go for either 1 stronger image, or multiple weaker images. Whichever you want, you get to choose what fits your style (which is really the great thing about runes in any skill).