Berserker skill tree discussion.

[StrikexForce]

I am definitely going Berserker, no matter what. I love whirlwind, it is my favorite skill in all of diablo.

Whirlwind is going to be an amazing skill in D3, just like it was in D2. It is the highest tier'd attack skill in the berserker tree, which confirms its ownage.

I just want this thread to be an in-depth and thorough discussion of the Berserker tree mechanics and gameplay. I know its still very early in development and none of us have actually played the game yet, but just use your best judgement in what you think will happen.
http://www.diablowiki.net/Barbarian_skills
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First I would like to start with, does everyone agree that the Berserker tree is catered for dual wielding? It appears that the main skills to gain fury are Double Strike/Slashing Strike, both passive abilities that do a good amount of damage and can aoe, aswell as gaining Fury. This combo requires dual wielding though, so if a 2hander was being used im assuming normal attack would have to be the main attack to gain fury at the start of a battle. Do you think a 2hander would be viable with a primarily Berserker build but also using skills from other trees to make up for not being able to use DS/SS?

If it is possible to have enough points to invest in a secondary tree, what beginning tier skills from the other two trees do you think would compliment a berserker barb the best?


Berserker tree self buff skills:
-Battle Rage(tier 1) - Increases damage and crit.
-Sprint(tier 2) - Increases movement speed
-Frenzy(tier 3) -Passive skill that increase attack speed on successful hit.
-Berserker state(tier 4) - Gives chance to enter Berserker state
-Wrath of the Berserker(tier 6) - Increases numerous combat stats.
-Onslaught(tier 6) - Increases crit and dodge chance.

These look like great buffs, increases dmg, crit, and attack speed. But would an increase in attack speed really have any effect on the bread and butter skill, whirlwind? Or would it just mainly be used for Double Strike/Slashing Strike to gain fury back? Obviously trying to get as many buffs up as possible while spamming whirlwind would be the best option in just about any situation :).

Berserker tree attack skills:
- Double Strike/Slashing Strike (tier 2/tier 4)
- Leap Attack (tier 4)
- Whirlwind (tier 5)

Ok so Berserker gives 3 primary attacks, my main concern is about fury generation. I know no one knows for sure, but how often do you think you will be able to spam Whirlwind? For example against a large group of mobs, do you think you would have to do a couple DS/SS swings initially, then have enough fury to spam Whirlwind until the group is dead? I wonder if the skill Bad Temper(tier 1 - passive skill to gain and maintain fury) is going to have a big effect on this?


Finally, Berserker has a really cool debuff that IMO will be great against those tough champions/bosses.
-Threatening Shout(tier 3) - Battle Cry that decreases enemy damage.
I really dont see this skill being useful at all against normal mobs, since you will simply be mowing them down with whirlwind, but against bosses I can see this being the difference between life and death.

Well Im going to wrap up this initial post, it was difficult trying to cover the basics of the whole tree in this one post, but now let me know what you all think and get in detail with this awesome tree which is IMO going to be the best by far!

BARBARIANS FOR LIFE!

[ill logic]

Aw, I'm disappointed that you left out Frenzy :(

It would seem that the berserker tree is catered for dual wielding to some extent (in the same way that Battlemaster is catered to wep/shield and Juggernaut is, or was at least, catered to use of a 2H wep).
- Leap Attack doesn't take "weapon damage" as furious charge and revenge do, but rather deals a certain amount of damage modified by strength which would seem to be preferable for one using two weps that are each singly weaker than a 2Hander.
- Berserker State procs on attack, an advantage for dual wielders who usually hit more often; and Onslaught depends on BS proc'ing
- the defensive mechanics in this tree buff dodge % or decrease damage rather than buffing defense, which would probably do less for a dual wielder than a shield bearer

Despite that, the weapon mastery skill Dual Wield Specialization has been removed and Frenzy has been opened up for use by 2H and H/Shield. This points to the idea that Blizz doesn't want the trees to be defined by a type of weapon customization, but rather wants it to be open to all types; the Barb has only one skill "tree" where the roots may be Battlemaster and the treetops Berserker. I think a 2Her will absolutely work well with Berserker (it's what I plan to do); e.g. Frenzy combined with multi-hitting attacks: primarily Cleave, but also Furious Charge, possibly Seismic Slam or Earthquake, and Whirlwind itself. This will help get in enough attacks to proc for Berserker State with decent frequency, even if it may occur less often than when dual wielding.

Personally I hope than WW spam will be impossible without having Enrage active, so that some dependence on Bash/Cleave/Hammer of the Ancients or Frenzy at the very start of combat, will be generally required. I kinda think of Enrage as a skill that may obviate the need for the single target attack skills iff you have enough defense/HP to survive its constant use, tempered by the fact that there is a cooldown ofc.

[StrikexForce]

Good call about frenzy :) I added it in.

I was thinking about it however, and I did elude to it "These look like great buffs, increases dmg, crit, and attack speed. But would an increase in attack speed really have any effect on the bread and butter skill, whirlwind? Or would it just mainly be used for Double Strike/Slashing Strike to gain fury back?"

I know none of us have any idea how fast fury generation is going to work, but personally I hope that a berserker who has maxed out Bad Temper will have enough fury to spam whirlwind.

GREAT POINT about Leap Attack. I personally did not know this, thanks for imforming me :D. Basing the damage off strength means that having 2 1handers doesnt nerf the damage of the skill, once again showing that the tree is catering to dual weilding.

Another great point about Frenzy+Cleave. This combo will make up for the lack of DS/SS and will be a significant way to gain fury using a big 2hander. Also, completely skipping DS/SS will free up a ton of points to use in the other trees to further improve a 2h berserker build.

Very informative post ill logic, im trying to be open minded about the berserker tree builds as a whole to become an expert at the barb class like I was at D2.

[Deckard Cain]

Not sure if you know this or not, but currently blizzard is intending on making it so that you can invest in ANY trees at certain levels. This means that you you can also make a jugg barb or a battlemaster barb yet still use WW without any other points in the berserker tree.

[StrikexForce]

Not sure if you know this or not, but currently blizzard is intending on making it so that you can invest in ANY trees at certain levels. This means that you you can also make a jugg barb or a battlemaster barb yet still use WW without any other points in the berserker tree.

Your post makes no sense. Whats the point of even having seperate trees at all if you can get the top skills from all the trees in a single build.

And please stay on topic, this thread is about the Berserker skill tree discussion aswell as possible synergies from other trees to support Berserker.

Thanks.

[Deckard Cain]

Your post makes no sense. Whats the point of even having seperate trees at all if you can get the top skills from all the trees in a single build.

And please stay on topic, this thread is about the Berserker skill tree discussion aswell as possible synergies from other trees to support Berserker.

Thanks.

Lol... well i agree with you on that. However, so far this is what BLIZZARD has decided. Its not my idea, but this is the direction the game is currently headed. After spending X amount of points in tier 1, you can spend points in any tier 2 in any tree. I really don't see how this is not relevant since this completely shatters what you were thinking about. Also, this opens the idea to get passives on higher tiers in other trees.

[StrikexForce]

Lol... well i agree with you on that. However, so far this is what BLIZZARD has decided. Its not my idea, but this is the direction the game is currently headed. After spending X amount of points in tier 1, you can spend points in any tier 2 in any tree. I really don't see how this is not relevant since this completely shatters what you were thinking about. Also, this opens the idea to get passives on higher tiers in other trees.

Can you post a source for this. I havent heard this anywhere, and it makes it so having seperate trees is just a waste of time if you can get any skills from you want from any tree. This completely goes against everything Blizzard has ever done.

And if this is the case, then even contemplating different builds at all is a complete waste of time, just grab all the best skills the barb has. Like I said before, this makes no sense, and could you please post a reliable source.

[Typoko]

Hi!

Trees are there to tie up the skills that benefit from eachother. Like magic missile is in the same tree as improved magic missile. Some prequisites might be needed, but the basic line is that you can invest in any tree you want and it will help every tree to advance. D3 is not WoW and don't expect it to work like it. In D2 you didin't need to put any points on low tier skills so i guess this is in so people can't only pick end tier skills.

So yes, having all berserker will grant you some credit, but alot of people will have WW no matter what their spec is. If not more than 1 point in it to use it as an escape mechanic.

PS: atleast you can now plan a barb with 2h whirlwind as you don't have to pick double strike...

[StrikexForce]

Hi!

Trees are there to tie up the skills that benefit from eachother. Like magic missile is in the same tree as improved magic missile. Some prequisites might be needed, but the basic line is that you can invest in any tree you want and it will help every tree to advance. D3 is not WoW and don't expect it to work like it. In D2 you didin't need to put any points on low tier skills so i guess this is in so people can't only pick end tier skills.

So yes, having all berserker will grant you some credit, but alot of people will have WW no matter what their spec is. If not more than 1 point in it to use it as an escape mechanic.

PS: atleast you can now plan a barb with 2h whirlwind as you don't have to pick double strike...

Thank you for the post. This thread should be deleted.

[Chorkstain]

StrikexForce, you are an ape!

[Moonfrost]

Whats the point of even having seperate trees at all if you can get the top skills from all the trees in a single build.
To gather similar-themed skills in one place so you don't have to look all over the trees to find them. Dual-wield skills in one tree, skills that affect rage generation in another and so on.

Having said that, I think your views on primary skills in D3 are pretty flawed. Based on this thread and a few other posts of yours, you seem to be the kind of player that picks one primary skill and just spams that as much as possible. You got used to it in D2 so now you expect the same to work in D3. To give a few examples:


Obviously trying to get as many buffs up as possible while spamming whirlwind would be the best option in just about any situation
I know no one knows for sure, but how often do you think you will be able to spam Whirlwind?
I know none of us have any idea how fast fury generation is going to work, but personally I hope that a berserker who has maxed out Bad Temper will have enough fury to spam whirlwind.

i just hope that i can still spam whirlwind
Yes, you like spamming Whirlwind - I get that. But keep in mind that this kind is exactly the kind of mindless D2-esque gameplay the developers don't want in D3. They want to make gameplay more interactive, they want you to use different skills for different purposes. What will undoubtedly come to separate good barbarians from bad ones will be fury management, i.e. how efficiently they use their fury. Spamming the same AoE skill won't be fury efficient because the number of enemies you face will not be constant. It will not be a good way to play, especially for one who, as you put it, wants to "become an expert at the barb class like I was at D2".

I can see the appeal of using Whirlwind as it's a cool skill, but don't base your skill tree analysis on the notion that WW will be the bread-and-butter skill and far superior to everything else. If it ends up like that, it means the developers failed to come up with a decent alternative, which is a very unlikely outcome now that they can look back on D2 and see which things that game messed up. Giving the D2 barb a single AoE skill is one such thing, which they've already attempted to remedy in D3 (e.g. Cleave)

[StrikexForce]

Wow...

First off, congratulations on that post Moonfrost. You destroyed me. Just gotta give credit where credit is due.

Lol I dont even know how to respond to that. That was impressive.

With that being said, let this thread die. I obviously didn't do my homework when it comes to D3, and made a few assumptions that made me look like a tard. I was just trying to get everyones creative juices flowing about building the ultimate berserker barbarian, but I definitely took a wrong turn.

And yes Chorkstain, I have been humbled.

*edit*
I have just re-read my original post...and I didn't realize it but I really AM obsessed with whirlwind. It has just served me well for so many years, but I think its time for me to open up a little bit and attempt to learn the new Diablo 3 barbarian so I can use it to its full potential upon release.

[djfriesen]

SxF, your humility is something often lacking on these forums. I appreciate the lack of flameback in your last post. tyvm.

-d

[scrispatsum]

I really don't think it's going to be a problem. A very similar system has worked in WoW for years and, to be honest, it makes much more sense for a Barbarian than does mana.

Keep in mind that the current system could change drastically by the time the game is released. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Blizzard will do whatever makes the Barbarian fun to play.
(http://radiantfloorheatingsystems.org/radiant-floor-heating-systems/)