D3 whirlwind breakpoints and weapon range.

[StrikexForce]

In D2 the whirlwind mechanics were setup that the amount of hits that whirlwind achieved in a whirl was based upon reaching the 2nd increased attack speed breakpoint and the range of the weapon.

This really limited the effectiveness of certain weapons with whirlwind, such as the grandfather which was impossible to hit the 2nd IAS breakpoint with. And other weapons with a range shorter than 3, such as baranars star and lightsabre were limited as well.

Do you think D3 will share some of these same mechanics with D2? I hope that blizzard implements a new system personally.

[Runestar]

Do you think D3 will share some of these same mechanics with D2?

I think it will be inevitable. But what blizzard can do is try to make each weapon stand out more, in that each will have a unique impact on whirlwind, and there will hopefully no longer be a single best weapon for whirlwinding with that trumps all the others in all aspects.

I guess it makes sense that a longer weapon will have a larger AoE with whirlwind, while a faster weapon would allow for more hits. Which should allow for different weapons to affect whirlwind differently, though I suppose that as with any system, there are bound to be some which get more benefits and a few which get the least.

Perhaps allow for more breakpoints, so that it is no longer all or nothing when it comes to trying to reach each breakpoint?

[NASE]

There probably aren't going to be breakpoints. It's now rendered.


P.S. There is a simple solutions. And one that makes a lot of sense.
Make the big weapons with high range slow. Then you will have a trade off between range and speed. If done right, this will make many items interesting.

[Fackelare]

There probably aren't going to be breakpoints. It's now rendered.

(A bit of extra information to back the statement up).
The system used in diablo II was based on the frames it could draw, you would only go faster if you have emassed enough points to go to the next level, rendering would not have that problem and you should be able to increase something with a very high precision.

[Sass]

Break points would be inevitable since there would have to be thresholds before it actually increases in speed.

AFAIK, blizz doesn't deal with a percent of a frame, so everything would have to round to a whole number, so eventually it'd get divided into bps.

[Darkflight]

There will be no breakpoints in Diablo 3 for faster attacks. I'll bet everything I got on it.

[Moonfrost]

The D2 breakpoint/frame system was extremely clunky and unintuitive, so I'm glad it probably won't be returning. Having to look stuff up in some guide or whatever sucked. The WoW system was nice and the formula easy to use:

old AS / haste = new AS

...where haste would be e.g. 1.20 if you had 20% increased attack speed. Simple to use and each % AS actually gives you some benefit.

[StrikexForce]

The D2 breakpoint/frame system was extremely clunky and unintuitive, so I'm glad it probably won't be returning. Having to look stuff up in some guide or whatever sucked. The WoW system was nice and the formula easy to use:

old AS / haste = new AS

...where haste would be e.g. 1.20 if you had 20% increased attack speed. Simple to use and each % AS actually gives you some benefit.

I agree the breakpoint system was terrible. I can see your idea would work great for standard melee swings, but how you you incorporate that into a skill like whirlwind?

[jacobgold]

I agree the breakpoint system was terrible. I can see your idea would work great for standard melee swings, but how you you incorporate that into a skill like whirlwind?

Number of hits per second rounded to the nearest whole number.

5 hps + 20% attack speed would be then be 6 hps.

[Moonfrost]

I agree the breakpoint system was terrible. I can see your idea would work great for standard melee swings, but how you you incorporate that into a skill like whirlwind?
Yup, in WoW haste only applies to attacks that are tied to your auto-attack (standard melee swings) because other attacks are instant and have a cooldown or high resource cost that prevents the player from spamming them. You cannot make an instant attack any faster, obviously.

So how would you incorporate that into Whirlwind? Well, first we need to know how the skill will work. It's complicated, so bear with me.

Does the barbarian whirl around at a constant rate?

If yes, then increased attack speed has no impact on it, which isn't as bad as it sounds as it helps keep a presumably powerful skill balanced.
If no, for whatever reason, then what affects the rate at which he spins? His base weapon attack speed?
+% attack/total speed skills?
+% attack/total speed affixes?

How and in what order are these applied?
Are they added? If yes, add the percentages together (e.g. 1 + 0.20 + 0.30 = 1.50 = 50% increase in # of swings per unit of time)
Are they multiplicated? If yes, multiply the percentages (1 x 1.20 x 1.30 = 1.56 = 56% increase in # of swings per unit of time)
Are they subtracted? If yes, subtract the percentages from the total (1 - 0.20 - 0.30 = 0.50 = 50% decrease in attack speed)

What does the formula look like?

Old AS / haste = new AS. Ergo, a 100% AS increase halves your swing speed (e.g. if 2.5 sec is your old AS then your new AS is 2.5 / 2 = 1.25 seconds). Haste has a medium effect here.
Old AS * subtracted haste value = new AS. Ergo, a 100% AS increase decreases your swing speed to 0 (e.g. 2.5 x 0 = 0 seconds). Haste has a large effect here.
Base speed + (adjustable speed / haste) = new AS. Ergo, a 100% AS increase results in (e.g. 1 sec base + (1.50 / 2) = 1.75 seconds). Haste has a small effect here.


By now things have gotten too mathy, so it's probably a good idea to conclude that there are lot of factors to take into consideration, should the developers decide to let attack speed affect Whirlwind.

[Sass]

Number of hits per second rounded to the nearest whole number.

5 hps + 20% attack speed would be then be 6 hps.That rounding is what would lead to break points. For instance, if following that, 1% IAS wouldn't help you by 1% (I know I'm not going to get 1% on a weapon, but as an example, it rounds back to 5). Unless blizz makes frames act in decimals, things will be truncated and only once the IAS% hits the next frame will things change.


I'm not exactly sure how 3D would change things, but even then you can't act mid frame can you?

[Moonfrost]

Attack speed in WoW is truncated down to two decimals (e.g. 3.60 speed with 25% haste = 3.60 / 1.25 = 2.88 seconds) which works great, so I'm guessing D3 will go for a similar system.

Attack animations are typically made up of several hundred frames so even if you happen to hit an attack speed that results in acting mid frame, nobody will notice if the animation skips a frame or two. You can also just speed the animation up if the player reaches the point where the attack animation cannot be fully displayed before another attack takes place.

[Sass]

So if we quadruple the frames, we'd still get a ton of little break points though O.o

or at least some could be in terms of attacks per second

[Moonfrost]

Only if your attack speed is slowed down to accomodate the frames (D2 style), rather than the frames being sped up or even skipped to accomodate your attack speed (WoW style). :)

[delosombres]

There are no classical "breakpoints" in 3D graphics.

3.60 speed with 25% haste = 3.60 / 1.25 = 2.88 seconds

This is just rounding the number. It has nothing to do with breakpoints we know from Diablo 2. Diablo 2 was restricted by its 2D engine. Now, if you have 1.8 attacks per second you will attack 1.8 times per second no matter if the game runs in 10 or 1000 FPS because animations in 3D engine are time based, not frame based. There will be much more smoother increments which we can also call breakpoints but these are just because of rounding-wise a number. There is no bind to frames unlike in 2D engine, so you can have 1.81 hps, 1.82 hps, 1.83 hps etc. You can even have 1.8184 hps but that is unnecessary.

[Atech]

WW Might work with a totally different mechanic. I strongly doubt it will be as devastatingly powerful as it was in DII, or then it will have long cooldown or very heavy fury cost.

[jacobgold]

That rounding is what would lead to break points. For instance, if following that, 1% IAS wouldn't help you by 1% (I know I'm not going to get 1% on a weapon, but as an example, it rounds back to 5). Unless blizz makes frames act in decimals, things will be truncated and only once the IAS% hits the next frame will things change.

I'm not exactly sure how 3D would change things, but even then you can't act mid frame can you?

On a skill that is used actively and ends in short manner (like 2 seconds)? Of course it will have a break point if atk speed even modifies the skill at all. WW isn't going to be a 10 minute buff. It is an activated per use ability, not a standard attack.

[DavidJewer]

One thing that bothered me THE MOST about D2 was the breakpoint system. It was obviously implemented for technical reasons, but it still won't stop me from saying it stinks.

I didn't like how when you got an item that gave you 15% IAS, it would effectively be ZERO, unless it was enough to hit the next breakpoint. That's like going to the gym and only having 10 pound weights, and then the next ones are like 56lbs. Or eating a lot and not gaining any weight, and then waking up the next day SUPER FAT. It's a lot better when it goes up in increments.

So yeah... I have a feeling that WW in this game is going to contact a monster and then have a bit of a cool-down (VERY small amt of time) before that monster can be pelted again. And that cool-down will be based on your IAS (if there is such a thing in D3).

[StrikexForce]

So yeah... I have a feeling that WW in this game is going to contact a monster and then have a bit of a cool-down (VERY small amt of time) before that monster can be pelted again. And that cool-down will be based on your IAS (if there is such a thing in D3).

interesting take on it.

I personally wouldnt mind breakpoints, but there has to be a lot of them for it to work.

Like a breakpoint for every 5% IAS. Apparently this wasnt possible with D2's 2dimensional engine, but im sure it could be with D3.

You bring up a good point about them, they were spaced so far apart it was ridiculous.

There obviously has to be some sort of system with whirlwind involving the number of hits per whirl and the weapons speed. Otherwise, the best option would be WW with high damage slow weapons and low damage fast weapons would be worthless.

[Rashiminos]

Whirlwind range should be affected by weapon range, although for the sake of simplicity we should ignore the differences in momentum at different ranges.

[Chorkstain]

Whirlwind range should be affected by weapon range, although for the sake of simplicity we should ignore the differences in momentum at different ranges.

Well, I didn't even think of that.

Maybe it should do less damage closer to the hilt of the weapon! I see no issue with it.

[StrikexForce]

Well, I didn't even think of that.

Maybe it should do less damage closer to the hilt of the weapon! I see no issue with it.


rofl.

10chars

[Moonfrost]

I personally wouldnt mind breakpoints, but there has to be a lot of them for it to work.

Like a breakpoint for every 5% IAS. Apparently this wasnt possible with D2's 2dimensional engine, but im sure it could be with D3.
Breakpoints do not give you any benefit over not having breakpoints. Barring game engine issues, there isn't any need to have breakpoints for that reason.

[NASE]

Like a breakpoint for every 5% IAS. Apparently this wasnt possible with D2's 2dimensional engine, but im sure it could be with D3.

Then what's the point of having breakpoints from the start? You can just as well make them continues.

You bring up a good point about them, they were spaced so far apart it was ridiculous.

I think for a breakpoint system, the system in diablo 2 is quite decent. They start off rather close to each other, most of the good weapons will already cover 1 or 2 breakpoints. After that, it requires some investment to gain an other 1 or 2 and the really high breakpionts need a large investment.

Breakpoints do not give you any benefit over not having breakpoints. Barring game engine issues, there isn't any need to have breakpoints for that reason.

Reaching a high breakpoint gives you a sense of accomplishment (similar to find a good item, atleast for me) and it works quite addictive (for me anyway). I know people that simple can't stand anything slower then 8 or 7 fpa multi (I'm one of them). Because it's so additive having the speed.

You will lose this although I think a continues system is better suited for a modern 3D system.

[Moonfrost]

Reaching a high breakpoint gives you a sense of accomplishment (similar to find a good item, atleast for me) and it works quite addictive (for me anyway).
I much prefer knowing all the IAS/FHR etc actually affect my character, but different folks, different strokes I guess.

[Gamekk]

I concur with Moonfrost. I don't even see the debate... Like he said there is no real advantage to keep breakpoints, I think you are all too nostalgic about the old DII's system.

[Sass]

The advantage was / is to break down how animation is dealt with.

Still don't know much about 3d frames, but a jump from 25 to a couple hundred is huge >>

[Rashiminos]

The breakpoints were the result of translating bonuses to an old discrete system. I expect d3 to be a bit more continuous, so much smaller differences in attack speed will probably have an effect (calculating speed bonuses will not be tied to the display rate).

[teh_Thrasher]

exactly. d2 could only operate at whatever fps and thats why they had to break attack speed and cast speed down into breakpoints cause there was a limited amount of FPS the game could handle. but now with D3 there will be a vast number more due to the better engine thus allowing it to handle more FPS... pretty much erasing the need for breakpoints and just allowing all the IAS ur character has to add up and effect it immediately.

NOW as for the discussion about WW speed. i think it should be a set speed... its not like u can spin faster with any certain type of item. now u CAN spin slower if u are wielding a long handled weapon like a polearm. cause it will take a longer time to really whip around (right?)

i think the barbarian should spin at a set speed. not allowing for super fast spins that make no sense and go from there... heavier/longer weapons would effectively slow down the spin. and extremely fast weapons will have to be capped at the barbarians natural spin speed.

[Sass]

What about big weapons eventually getting faster in a long whirl, like momentum from a swing?

[kavlor]

Is there going to be a weapon range or will it be a mesh collision(using the actual mesh of the 3d object ie sword rather than a simple sphere/box collision) obviously mesh needs more processing but if the game can easily cope with it I think its better for more realism(imagine having a weapon mod for weapon length by say up to 10% longer).