Barbs and Fury in PvP

[Flux]

This may have come up before, but it's not in any threads visible in the past month.

So anyway, how could Barbs work in PvP? The D3 team claims that they've not even considered PvP issues thus far, but it's pretty obvious that when at least one character has to hit things before he gains the ability to use his skills, that's kind of a problem for PvP. So what's to be done to enable Barbs to play PvP with something other than faster boots and attack? How can you enable the skills, which cost Fury to use, without just giving Barbs essentially free/infinite Fury?

Easiest thing seems to be some sort of Fury regeneration, more or less like how mana works. That's a big change in the game mechanics, but I don't see how else the Barb would have any chance.

Even if the fury regen is slow, and the other chars have nasty ranged attacks, a Barb would at least be able to use Furious Charge to instantly close the distance, and then use his other skills in close. Even then, that's sort of a fail from the Barb's play style PoV. He'd be running and dodging in every fight, while waiting to regen enough Fury to launch a quick attack. And if he didn't get hits or a kill, he's back to running again, while his Fury regens. That's nothing like the design of the PvM Barb, so I'd hope that Blizzard can come up with a better solution...?

[Moonfrost]

Don't forget that fury is generated when taking damage as well. If the barbarian is taking damage, it's just a matter of time until he can afford a Furious Charge (or similar skill) and close the distance. That is the beauty of the fury (rage) system - as long as you're in combat, you'll generate the resource in one way or another.

If that isn't enough - which it likely won't be as it puts too much control in the hands of the barb's enemies rather than the barb himself - the devs should consider adding a "start-up" skill, a skill that grants a small amount of fury at will to allow the barb to use his basic abilities, i.e. WoW warrior Bloodrage. It should have a long enough cooldown so that it needs to be used tactically but short enough so that players do not save it for those rainy days, as is often the case with long but powerful CDs.

Alternatively, make Furious Charge cost 0 fury but give it a longer cooldown to compensate. Not the best solution, admittedly, but would work as a last resort of sorts.

[Romak]

Eitherway, he will be left with advantage or disadvantage. That's because fury simply doesn't work in PvP as it is in PvM... it's not like in WoW, there's actually a difference. Just think about it. A barb starts with 0 fury. A WD starts with full mana. Obviously the barb will lose. On the other hand, if they both start with an amount of mana/fury, then the barb wins because he got a way of filling up his fury and the WD doesn't (unless the opposing player drop mana orbs when hit, which is retarded)

1/2 off topic: Blizzard 'do' before they 'think'. I never liked the idea of developing PvM and then moving on to PvP. It's plain stupid. I really hope it won't happen, but I think that when they start working on PvP... they will change back alot of things that they already did without thinking twice :S which is a big waste of time and effort.

[Moonfrost]

Just think about it. A barb starts with 0 fury. A WD starts with full mana. Obviously the barb will lose.
It doesn't work like that. Winning or losing doesn't solely come down to who has the most amount of resource. There are many other factors to consider: skill usage, skill power, item power etc, they all make a difference in the end. By your logic, if two wizards were to duel then the one with the most resource would win.

Theoretically, there are two ideal ways the fight could play out. Firstly, the barbarian may be at a disadvantage initially, but once he gets enough fury he'll have the upper hand, so it evens out in the end. Secondly, he may generate fury very quickly and the fight will be even from that point on.

1/2 off topic: Blizzard 'do' before they 'think'. I never liked the idea of developing PvM and then moving on to PvP. It's plain stupid. I really hope it won't happen, but I think that when they start working on PvP... they will change back alot of things that they already did without thinking twice :S which is a big waste of time and effort.
The developers can't balance PvP at this point because PvP is far more difficult to balance than PvE. In PvE, class skills are mainly balanced against the enviroment. In PvP, class skills are mainly balanced against each other. It goes without saying that as soon as one skill changes, that change will have almost twice the impact on PvP balance than it has on PvE balance, simply because that change might make other skills unbalanced and in need of changing too. That's why it's more efficient to develop PvM content first; it makes PvP easier to balance in the end. Plus, Diablo 3 appears to be primarily a PvM game, so balance changes pertaining to PvM probably have a bigger priority in that regard anyway.

The bottom line is that regardless of what you may think of Blizzard, they have a lot more experience than you when it comes to designing games. Don't be so quick to discredit their design decisions. :)

[Typoko]

Hi!

Eitherway, he will be left with advantage or disadvantage. That's because fury simply doesn't work in PvP as it is in PvM... it's not like in WoW, there's actually a difference. Just think about it. A barb starts with 0 fury. A WD starts with full mana. Obviously the barb will lose. On the other hand, if they both start with an amount of mana/fury, then the barb wins because he got a way of filling up his fury and the WD doesn't (unless the opposing player drop mana orbs when hit, which is retarded)

Umm... how bout this: In wow (pre-juggernaut) you start with 0 rage and warlock starts with full mana. You use a skill to gain instant rage in cost of hp or you wait to be hit with enough of damage to gain the rage (first one is a bit better choise :) ). Anyways, all i see barbs needing is an active skill that can be used to gain instant rage to close the distance. This skill should be on a cooldown. It's this or the barb waits till he has taken enough damage (not a fun way to do it). Also making charge fury free and slapping a nice CD on it would help alot. Remember also that there are and will be "pvp skills" such as the slowing effect of barbs passive skill. (procs from autoattacks i guess). These will help alot and some defensive skills could be used to endure the beating while you are closing the distance.

And as with rage/mana in wow the fury never stops coming if you hit the enemy whilst the mana will dry out eventually. Also lets remember that fury is also gained by using special attacks so what will caster do when the barbarian gets to him, slows him down and starts bashing big hits? Barbarians also have passive hp regen in the last tier. If this skills is good it will only make long fights eaven more favourable for barbarians.

Also working with the CD on teleport and furious charge is pretty important for example. From barbarians point of view i would fear Horrify the most. If it works on pvp a WD can run around and make you run like a little girl. :) Tho i don't think it will work and thus WD doesen't have any real skills to get away from barbarian after he has gotten to him. WD might be running trough the barb or be invoulnerable for a while but he will be waiting next to you and kill you when you start taking damage again.

Also WD skill Death pact that makes him invoulnerable after going under 10% hp is quite interesting for barbarian as if he hits WD whilst he is invoulnerable he wont take damage and thus making the barb to waste his fury. Same with any skill that avoids the damage compleatly.

PS: Barbarians also have a leap in their arsenal. :)

[Keighvin]

http://www.diablowiki.net/Enrage

Even FLux seems to forget about the wiki.

[Moonfrost]

http://www.diablowiki.net/Enrage

Even FLux seems to forget about the wiki.
On a humorous side note, I think most old time WoW warrior players can see why the D3 team picked that name:

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Just+pop+enrage (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Just+pop+enrage)

You may not be a WoW CM anymore, Tseric, but your spirit lives on! :)

[Deckard Cain]

I find it odd that they say they haven't considered PVP issues when i specifically remember someone saying "we are taking PVP into consideration while developing this game." I guess what they mean is that they have thought of skills for PVP, but are not currently attempting any balance?

I can definitely see some skills that would be PvP oriented in the tree.

And yes the enrage skill would be a perfect fix for the issue of starting with no fury.

Funny how some people think that the barb would instantly lose because he starts with 0 fury. What are all the other characters going to do when they run out of their energy source? Sure a WD starts with full mana, but a barbarian has no limit on how much fury can be generated.

[Flux]

True, there is enrage, and you gain some fury from being hit, but you get far more from hitting, and hitting with skills that cost fury to use. Enrage has a 30 sec cool down, which is enough to give you one Furious Charge, or other skill, and then what do you do for the next 28 seconds, if that doesn't connect?

So maybe they could incremental a bunch of changes. Slow Fury regen in PvP only. Lower the Enrage cool down in PvP only. Increase Fury generation from taking damage. Etc. There may also be equipment that grants a fury regen bonus, which would be highly useful for PvP and mostly ignored during PvM.

In any event, I cant' see Barb PvP being much like Barb PvM, where you're right in the thick of the battle and grinding away dealing/taking damage madly. I mean maybe, if 2 barbs are going toe to toe, but no other character would fight the barb that way, since they'd lose. So obviously the Barb will be doing some hit and run or hit and chase, simply since that's how other players will force him to play. We just don't know how much he'll be running, and how much he'll be using skills during the fight.

[Daerius]

I'm not sure limiting his skill usage is a bad thing in PvP. We still don't know how strong his weapon attack will be, and letting him spam skills like furious charge, leap attack, hammer of the ancients, whirlwind, and cleave, would be insane.

You have to remember, Barbs in D2 didn't have ANY AoE attack at all, except for War Cry. D2's WW was not an AoE, it was a rapid swing that could strike enemies very quickly in an area, but still one enemy/attack at a time.

Since these attacks are going to be instant cast, cover a huge area, have the ability to close the gap between players, deal physical damage, and have a percentage damage increase over a normal swing, I'm not sure they should be easy to cast.

Slow Fury regen in PvP only. Lower the Enrage cool down in PvP only.

This won't happen. Blizz keeps the same game-play mechanics for both realms in their games. It would be like saying fury is broken for PvP, so let's make it work more like mana, which is not broken.

[Deckard Cain]

Barb will definitely have much different gameplay in PvP than in PvM. Sounds like it will be quite difficult to do PvP with barb, granted it was the same way in D2 before engima (not much chance against a caster). Even then it was still difficult for a barb, however i do think blizzard is on the right track to making it work.

*Disclaimer this is just a thought and obviously i have no clue if this will work and or if it is true*

But to me it looks like they put in furious charge and that sort of weapon throw skill to be used in PvP. Enrage, furious charge and hit target (hopefully), and you will then be able to use weapon throw (a 1 fury orb skill). After this you will be able to catch up with the target and get some more rage. Then you will be able to use your next skill like WW or ground stomp etc.

The skill required to put points in weapon throw is inspiration which increases crit. Crits are GREAT in wow, and i would have to assume they will be great in PvP. Enrage is required for inspiration which is also a spell that seems to be PvP oriented. So right there the barb has 3 PvP oriented skills tied together (granted the crit one would be good in PvM as well).

Like i said, i have NO CLUE AT ALL about if that could work but i think Blizzard is definitely going in the right direction. One thing for sure, they are definitely giving the barb some skills that will be viable for PvP (much unlike D2).

Edit: i just saw further down the tree the skill Cripple. This is a passive skill which slows targets that get hit. If coupled with the furious charge / weapon throw combo i don't see how the barb could lose. Not to mention you might not even need the weapon throw if this passive is effective enough

[StrikexForce]

Any time there is a "charge up" mechanic for a class it usually fails badly in PvP. ex: frenzy barb in D2.

"Charging up" in PvM is great, the monsters run towards you and let you smack them down.

But in a PvP situation, most players are going to be kiting and dodging barbs, which means 0 hits which means a lack of fury.

I know from dueling experience that sometimes it would take my 5-6 whirlwinds to even hit a kiting amazon a single time. With the "charge up" mechanic in D3, I wouldnt have been able to WW that much and I would be gunned down much quicker.

I cant say for sure because I havent played D3 yet, but a "charge up" mechanic for a class that is going to be kited/dodged is going to fail in PvP.

[Atech]

On another side, the Barb in DII did not have Furious charge, Seismic slam, Earthquake and possibly some other moves that could be activated with success from range.

[StrikexForce]

Im not saying barbs dont have the utilities to dominate pvp.

Enrage/Furious charge is going to be an amazing combo for closing ground.

[Chaosmage]

Dont forget that in pvp the damage taken will be higher which means more fury as well. The others try to kill you after all :D

It may be a time game, but thats how it works right now too, isnt it?

[Halfsoul]

i mostly pvped as a paladin and necro, however barbs were, as i recall, the most ulitimate in close combat, and i am pretty sure they would still be, especially since they still have whirlwind, lots of life and a high def which were basically the reason, why they were so good pvp...well not against a pala anyway .-)

[Halfsoul]

Ateh: On another side, the Barb in DII did not have Furious charge, Seismic slam, Earthquake and possibly some other moves that could be activated with success from range.

true enough, however i in D3 he also doesn´t seem to have a passive skill which increases speed(although he does have one liked with fury) and that could be one reason, why he has those new skills in order to fill that voild of not being able to deal with range attackers unless you were fast enough to cath up and kill them first.

They were able to cast throwing spears in d2, and 1 of my friends at that time(it´s almost 10 years ago..man i am old :d) used to switch weapons when he was up against i.e. a sorc and kill him from a long distance, as he wasn´t able to kill him in close combat, as he could teleport. He loved to see the reactions of players who were killed that way heh.

Some clever guys who played barbs in pvp could own just about anything, and that was the same with palas(which i mostly played) however i am looking forward to this new barbarian...especially with his new ranged attack skill system, moreover you can specialze the skills as well using runes, which would ultimately give the barbarian more options on the battlefrield. In any case i think he will kick ***.. no doubt about it :d

[run the wind]

They should've made a different title instead of a continuation of Diablo influenced by WoW.

[trashX]

Some clever guys who played barbs in pvp could own just about anything, and that was the same with palas

Im sorry but that isnt quite true. With a pala you either cast hammers, shift smited, or jsut fohed your way to victory. IMBA^10

The barbarian was veeery different. To win you usually had to use teleport, stomp, and whirlwind(for a ww barb) thats 3 skills already. And vs particularly quick chars you had to take out a bow and shoot some guided arrows. MUCH harder to use effectivley.


NOW as for how to solve the PVP fury problem. They will probably have certain PVP settings like in D2 where damage was reduced. Only here fury gain off damage taken could be very lagre, making the barb a guy you have to take down with strong blows and not continuous weak ones(which fits him too) The rage generating skill could give him more rage also. And last but not least Fury generation may get entirely removed, so that you cant just shoot him then run off and wait till ehs weak again, and repeat.

my 2 cents

[Halfsoul]

Trashx: The barbarian was veeery different. To win you usually had to use teleport, stomp, and whirlwind(for a ww barb) thats 3 skills already. And vs particularly quick chars you had to take out a bow and shoot some guided arrows. MUCH harder to use effectivley.


My intuitive experience said otherwise about the barb at the time, but it was a loong time ago, and things have obviously changed a bit since, so you are probably right about the reality now, but at that time he was quite powerful, if you played him well.

On the other hand i was a very much into paladins and pvp, and even wrote guides and strategies about him, so i can say with 100%, that he was very powerful vs most characters, and i didn´t have much trouble winning against any, except the dreadful necro :d (my other favorite character).