View Full Version : Commentary on some Witch Doctor skills
Slowly but surely, the Witch Doctor is moving in the right direction. However, these skills could be done better:
Sacrifice: This skill should apply to all your summons, and not just your Mongrels (btw, I like "Mongrel" better than "Zombie Dog"!). They've all got to feel "expendable," remember?
Parasite: This skill has the potential to make the Witch Doctor truly shine as a creepy and original character. Here's my suggestion: instead of turning a monster into a Zombie Dog if it dies while under this curse, why not gain control of the monster as a full minion if it dies while parasitized (like the Necromancer's Revive skill)? A key theme of the Witch Doctor's personality is mind control. What better way to achieve that feeling than by commanding an army of monsters that are slaves to your will?
Zombie Charger: Different name, more than just one please!
Corpse Spiders: They should be full minions, and not simply expire after a set period of time. Otherwise, what's the point in summoning them if you can simply use a damage over time skill?
Hi!
Sacrifice: This skill should apply to all your summons, and not just your Mongrels (btw, I like "Mongrel" better than "Zombie Dog"!). They've all got to feel "expendable," remember?
The WD has Gargantuan, zombie dogs and the possible charger. If charger is also very limited in numbers i don't see the appeal to explode them. Maybe if you tone up the damage signifigantly from Gargantuan and chargers. Not sure how Gargantuan is implemented but if it has no cd on summon you could just summon it and blow it up for huge damage. I don't think thats the intention.
But yeah, from your suggestions this one is the best one, but i don't see it implemented.
Parasite: This skill has the potential to make the Witch Doctor truly shine as a creepy and original character. Here's my suggestion: instead of turning a monster into a Zombie Dog if it dies while under this curse, why not gain control of the monster as a full minion if it dies while parasitized (like the Necromancer's Revive skill)? A key theme of the Witch Doctor's personality is mind control. What better way to achieve that feeling than by commanding an army of monsters that are slaves to your will?
Balance issues and huge ones. I'd argue that the mind controll isin't really his thing. Ok he has an spell named after mind controll, but having minions is hardly mind controll. Next to nothing is known from this spell and you reall can't judge it atm. Big questions that arise are will this be able to increase the amount you can have at a time and will this be capped to some amount and will they have timer how long they will live.
Zombie Charger: Different name, more than just one please!
We don't really know anything about this except the name. Not eaven seen in the game.
Corpse Spiders: They should be full minions, and not simply expire after a set period of time. Otherwise, what's the point in summoning them if you can simply use a damage over time skill?
They could be full minions, but then they would have to be toned down for balance issues. Also having few active spells during fights adds alot to a minion class that mainly sits in the back and picks his nose. I also haven't seen any information if you can have more than one patch of these running around. Also a dot that moves from target to another if the target dies is a really good thing.
Alot of the WD skills will and should change. But before we eaven know what they do i won't pass my judgement around.
along with what Typoko said, keep in mind the WD's basic design goal is to have him be an active caster in every fight. His minions are meant to be attack objects; not tanks. Not for him to stand back safely behind a meat wall and cast spells w/o danger. The design team wants him to be more mage like. You could even look at his minions as disposible glass cannons; not very strong each one, but capable of dealing big damage with the right spells.
http://www.diablowiki.net/Witch_Doctor_skills
He'll be recasting mongrels constantly, since they aren't very durable, and they do their best work exploding on your command. Hence parasite, which deals some damage but will also cause some dead monsters to spawn more mongrels. I see this as a recycling type skill; you get your dog into the fray, chuck some firebombs, or the AoE-poison'esque Corpse Spiders, Parasite a few enemies, detonate the mongrel, and poof; many kills and 1 or 2 new mongrels. Rinse and repeat.
I think the devs can make this a fun character with an original play style. What I question is if they can do it while allowing variety in the build and skills in the ideal style. As it is it looks like the WD is designed to have one really fun/effective build with some skill variety, but that's not the D3 char style.
The WD was clearly the least developed/balanced of the first 3 chars, so I'm assuming there will be improvements and many changes yet to come.
theeliminator
22-09-2009, 17:55
Sacrifice: This skill should apply to all your summons, and not just your Mongrels (btw, I like "Mongrel" better than "Zombie Dog"!). They've all got to feel "expendable," remember?
I agree with Typoko on this. I think game balance issuse would arise if you let the WD Sacrifice any of his summons.
Parasite: Instead of turning a monster into a Zombie Dog, if it dies while under this curse, why not gain control of the monster as a full minion if it dies while parasitized (like the Necromancer's Revive skill)?
I like this idea, could make the skill a top tier skill. On a side note, why would you say it would make the WD an original character then say the skill would work just like the Necro? Got to think things through before typing it out.
Zombie Charger: Different name, more than just one please!
Agree with the name change, and agree with Typoko, can't pass judgment on a skill that we haven't even seen yet.
Corpse Spiders: They should be full minions, and not simply expire after a set period of time. Otherwise, what's the point in summoning them if you can simply use a damage over time skill?
Although I like how the spell looks, I don't see it working with the way they have it set up now, unless they make the spiders’ full minions. The animation is way too slow. By the time the spiders are out and ready to attack most mobs would be dead already. So why would you use Corpse Spider if you can use a instant damage spell? O Naja, the description of the spell says, the spider's attacks are not Dots they do direct poison based damage.
PS: I liked Mongrels more then I like Zombie dogs. I can think of a few reasons why they changed it but non that (I would say) over weighs the fact that Mongrel is just a far better name.
Mad Mantis
23-09-2009, 16:07
His minions are meant to be attack objects; not tanks.
And yet they provide us with passives that raise health and damage for the minion skills. There is exactly 1 skill that promotes the use of minions as attack objects and that skill only works with the Zombie Dogs.
The idea behind minions that are worth more in death than in life is neat. However there aren't any skills promoting their use as such. Blizz keeps mentioning that they want the WD to play with disposable minions, but the skills aren't showing it.
What I question is if they can do it while allowing variety in the build and skills in the ideal style. As it is it looks like the WD is designed to have one really fun/effective build with some skill variety, but that's not the D3 char style.
That was my biggest concern once I read the skill tree. He basically has once build. Throw away pet for minor tanking, heavy nuking spell and some crowd control utility spells. You can choose a different minion, nuke spell or utility spell, but it won't change your playstyle.
The WD was clearly the least developed/balanced of the first 3 chars, so I'm assuming there will be improvements and many changes yet to come.
He's been the least developed/balanced and even least thought through for a long while now. I'm starting to think that Blizz is in a bind as to what to do with the WD. I think they had a cool concept and a skill or two but no real idea on what to do next. Now they launched the char and the ideas are still not coming. They can't scrap him since he has been introduced and they can't improve him since they have no idea on what to do with the class.
I agree with Typoko on this. I think game balance issuse would arise if you let the WD Sacrifice any of his summons.
The game isn't even out yet. There is no reason to assume balance problems would arise.
mandaumn
23-09-2009, 17:01
Well, guys, sorry if i haven't anything constructive to say, but seeing these posts reminded me of Bashiok's all-use reply "and when you put a skill rune into it". What I mean is that runes appear to be a major part of the gameplay and they could potentially resolve any of these concerns... A specific rune can make Zombie Dogs an effective disposable minion (giving neat bonuses to dmg, elemental-plus dmg, etc) or make them valuable additions tank-style.
Another thing is that the WD, as already confirmed by Blizz wasn't as far off in development as the Wiz when they first showed him. So obviously he needs more work. It's too soon to write in stone how many viable builds there are for him because he is still in development (more than the barb and wiz, at least) and we don't know how runes will affext his skills...
Knight_Wolf
23-09-2009, 21:44
Blizz keeps mentioning that they want the WD to play with disposable minions, but the skills aren't showing it.
First let's not forget that the Zombie dogs are the only summon we actually saw at blizzcon08 .. and probably the only one which will get the "disposable" tag.
Giving you a skill specifically to "sacrifice" your zombie dogs is enough ... and giving you another way to quickly gain more zombie dogs (parasite, which makes enemies spawn zombie dogs upon death) since you will be sacrificing them all the time and is encouraged to do so .. all is enough to make it very clear the zombie dogs are disposable !!!
As for the skill the increases the hit points of the zombie dogs and the Gargantuan .. actually this one is really great .. with zombie dogs getting more HP sacrificing them causes more damage (as sacrifice damage is based on minion HP) ... and for Gargantuan (which seems from skill description as an actual tanking, heavy melee attack summon) giving it more HP makes it gain more durability and becomes more effective in melee combat .. perfect example of how a skill could have dual varied effects even if it simply does one thing (i.e ... increase HP).
Where is the problem in that !!!? :scratchchin:
That was my biggest concern once I read the skill tree. He basically has once build. Throw away pet for minor tanking, heavy nuking spell and some crowd control utility spells. You can choose a different minion, nuke spell or utility spell, but it won't change your playstyle.
Personally i made a couple of theoretical builds for the witch doctor, one focused on fire skills, one on poison skills, one on summons and a jack of all trades.
All we need is few passives that makes a poison or a fire WD more viable and interesting than the summoner or the jack of all trades build.
since they have no idea on what to do with the class.
Really, is that why he has a full skill tree !!!?, i think he is just fine .. just needs more time.
The game isn't even out yet. There is no reason to assume balance problems would arise.
Sometimes it is too obvious we don't need to have the game to grasp it, for example .. on the subject of making WD sacrifice all his summons, who said all of them should be like that, only the Z.dogs where called "disposable".
Making other summons disposable will overlap their function and will make the other summons (like Gargantuan) more effective as a sacrifice since it will naturally have much more HP, and (More HP = much more sacrifice damage) .. i'd rather each summon serves a unique purpose.
Deckard Cain
23-09-2009, 21:46
And yet they provide us with passives that raise health and damage for the minion skills. There is exactly 1 skill that promotes the use of minions as attack objects and that skill only works with the Zombie Dogs.
The idea behind minions that are worth more in death than in life is neat. However there aren't any skills promoting their use as such. Blizz keeps mentioning that they want the WD to play with disposable minions, but the skills aren't showing it.
I do see a benefit from increasing life of zombie dogs for sacrifice. Since sacrifice is based off of percentage of health, increasing zombie dogs health will also increase damage from sacrifice.
We aren't really sure what the percentage gain for each skill will be, but if the passive health gain is significant enough I think it could greatly increase sacrifices damage. Especially depending on the % damage from sacrifice.
I searched the trees (minus the voodoo one that is down?) and i was not able to find a skill increasing mongrel damage (though i might have missed it).
Deckard Cain
23-09-2009, 21:51
Personally i made a couple of builds for the witch doctor, one focused on fire skills, one on poison skills, one on summons and a jack of all trades.
All we need is few passives that makes a poison or a fire WD more viable and interesting than the summoner or the jack of all trades build.
I agree with your other points, i was thinking the same thing about the gargantuan and life gain as well. However.... this statement just seems a bit foolish to me (no offense meant).
What they are trying to say is that there appears to be only 1 viable build. You can make up your own little builds all you want but it is impossible to say they are viable.
Sure there could potentially be more builds (and i have faith there will be in time) but right now there looks to be only one viable build.
Knight_Wolf
23-09-2009, 22:27
However.... this statement just seems a bit foolish to me (no offense meant).
What they are trying to say is that there appears to be only 1 viable build. You can make up your own little builds all you want but it is impossible to say they are viable.
Well, there is nothing foolish about it really, if anything it works both ways, there is no way to tell if any build is viable or not .. we can only try out "possible" builds and stop at that ... there is no way to measure any viability now.
And as for "possible" builds, the WD has enough Active skills to support 4-5 different build setups, since all his trees have offensive and defensive skills.
We can Have
-Fire doctor
-Spirit Doctor
-Poison Doctor
-Summoner
-A Jack of all trades
Regardless of whether they are viable or not they are still possibilities ... the only real problem is that actually he got passives to support Spirit skills and Summons but none for fire or poison (probably they are depending too much on skill runes here), but still passive are used effectively for the Wiz storm tree (and the WD needs the same treatment for his voodoo [fire/poison] tree),
I searched the trees (minus the voodoo one that is down?) and i was not able to find a skill increasing mongrel damage (though i might have missed it).
It is called
Ferocity - Increases the health and damage of your Zombie Dogs and Gargantuan by 8%.
It increases both ATK and HP for both summons .. and of course the (8%) increases with skill level.
Deckard Cain
23-09-2009, 22:37
Ahhh thank you i didn't completely read ferocity so i only saw the 8% health gain lol. I see exactly what you are trying to say, and like i said, i agree that there will hopefully be more viable builds.
All i was trying to point out is that its hard to say there are other viable builds since all WD footage we have seen basically revolves around the mongrel / firebomb combo.
I'm just thinking back to the D2 days when i thought i had a bunch of viable builds and then just about none of them worked.... Just because the wd has 5 possible builds does not really make them viable. In fact, i would say having 5 viable builds that way doesn't make sense. Since there are 3 trees you could say 1 tree for each build. I guess that doesn't make sense either since you could essentially put 1 point in each skill and call that possible. Possible builds don't really mean anything since we have no idea if they would be playable (viable).
But yes, i do see a possibility of more viable builds. At the moment though its really looking like the zombie dog is all blizzard has.
Knight_Wolf
24-09-2009, 02:12
All i was trying to point out is that its hard to say there are other viable builds since all WD footage we have seen basically revolves around the mongrel / firebomb combo.
It is all what we saw because that's all there is for now, almost 80% of the WD skills in the latest Blizzcon demo were still being improved, are WIP and not usable, how do you consider that any indication that the WD only viable build is the fire-bomb + zombie dog combo when those are mostly the only two fully finalized abilities !!!
It isn't an indication of anything other than the WD being behind in development schedule.
there are 3 trees you could say 1 tree for each build. I guess that doesn't make sense either since you could essentially put 1 point in each skill and call that possible. Possible builds don't really mean anything since we have no idea if they would be playable (viable).
Using D2 as an example it is quite obvious that most of those possible builds can be viable, specialization in one tree has always been a viable choice in D2 and seems to be so in D3 as well for all classes (go check the Wiz, Barb, WD trees and see how the skills on each tree complement each other).
Although i don't want to go down the road of pure speculation, i have to since you are already making the assumption that those builds aren't viable ... allow me to ask you what's wrong with a Spirit Doctor Build, investing in spirit tree gives you a balanced set of offensive skills, defensive skill and passives .. i don't see any reason to assume it won't be viable ... same goes for the other two routes of tree specialization (summoner and poison/fire).
Why nobody made a spirit doctor in the Blizzcon demo .. simply becasue it was impossible to do so with more than 80% of the skills locked and WIP.
And as for the Jack of all trades (as in using a rational mix of skills across all trees .. it isn't about putting one point in every skill), it is sill both viable and possible since there are many possibilities here that can work (and some that won't of course).
But yes, i do see a possibility of more viable builds. At the moment though its really looking like the zombie dog is all blizzard has.
It isn't the only skill we saw used, in earlier demo builds the WD had more skills available for use (like firebats and zombie wall) and people used them back then ... but the Devs later locked them in the latest Blizzcon demo (probably to improve them or becasue of the runes) and we ended up with only zombie dog and fireball with few slight uses of locust swarm, poison frogs and corpse spiders.
How can you say all that they have for the WD is the zombie dogs when we actually never got to see more than half the skills and actually tried out even less than that.
The demo is no indication of anything nor is it a fair way to pass a final judgment over an unfinished character ... the demo provided players with a zomibe dog and fire ball WD (and limited them to it .. so naturally everyone will be using them most often .. although i saw others using the other two skills [poison frogs/corpse spiders] as often too) .. so that doesn't mean in anyway that's the only way to use the WD in the final game.
All in all .. like i said over and over ... it is way too early to pass any judgment over the WD.
Mad Mantis
24-09-2009, 08:19
What I mean is that runes appear to be a major part of the gameplay and they could potentially resolve any of these concerns...
Runes are a major part of the gameplay, but they shouldn't be needed in order for core concepts of the class to function. With the Barb or Wiz skills, or even the 8 Monk skills known, there is a very solid base of skills that already appear to function properly without skill runes. These skills will only improve when adding a rune. The WD shouldn't need runes for his basics to function.
Gargantuan (which seems from skill description as an actual tanking, heavy melee attack summon)
It's a tank. That is exactly opposite to what Blizz has been telling us about the WD. They keep hammering on the fact that they don't want a Summoner. That minions should be disposable. That we should view them as transitory. What do they do? They give us a tank. They give us a skill to transform the Zombie Dogs into tanks. That is not promoting the use of minions as spell, that is creating a Summoner.
Where is the problem in that !!!? :scratchchin:
I don't have a problem with Summoners. I like huge armies and strong minions. I think that it is odd if Blizz keeps saying that minions should be disposable and then giving us skills that do exactly the opposite. That makes me question if Blizz know what the hell they want with the build.
Personally i made a couple of theoretical builds for the witch doctor, one focused on fire skills, one on poison skills, one on summons and a jack of all trades.
All we need is few passives that makes a poison or a fire WD more viable and interesting than the summoner or the jack of all trades build.
Fire and Poison builds have a disturbing lack of passives to make them completely viable, as you already noticed. They also don't have a different playstyle. You can even group the Spirit build under this. It also has high DD and DoT spells. The difference is that Spirit has passives to increase the damage and there are a lot of utility skills and useless (at first glance) skills in that tree.
The only other build that actually plays differently is the Summoner build. This one also seems pretty well developed. There are skills that increase life and damage and make it easier to maintain an army. There are a few options of minions for different situations. There is even a CC spell. However this is assuming a Summoner will be a viable proposition, something which Blizz keeps saying they don't want.
For me this is a disturbing lack of variety. Only two builds that actually play differently. It is a problem I had with the Sorc in D2. All the builds basically play the same except for an Enchantress. The only difference was when you faced immunes. Same with choosing between a Bonemancer or a Poisonmancer. The difference in playstyle comes from DD vs DoT. And since DoT was very short for the Poison tree it was basically DD. So the only real difference was in immunities. Since there will be no immunes in D3 this aspect of play disappears so that all the different types of damage will have the same playstyle. The only difference is in the visuals.
What I'd really like to see is skills that allow the creation of four or five builds that actually require you to play the char differently. Blizz had a good idea with the Barb in D2. There was a difference between a Singer, a WW-er, a Concentrate build, a Frenzybarb and a Leaper. However these builds still agreed with the core concept of the class. I'm sure they CAN do it for the WD, but right not it isn't there.
Really, is that why he has a full skill tree !!!?, i think he is just fine .. just needs more time.
The WD does have a full skill tree. He does not have a coherent design. The Zombie skill tree is the best thought out of the bunch. They work well together and give several options. The skills also look like they belong to a WD. There could have been more diverse minions but overall it looks solid.
The Voodoo skill tree lacks in direction. You have some summon-based DD and DoT skills. Then you have some non-summon based DD and DoT skills. There is a single passive that boosts damage based on the availability of health globes. There is a hell of a lot of overlap in this tree. Why didn't they go all out and focus on summon-based DD and DoT skills? It seems terribly appropriate for a WD. Solidify this concept and diversify the effects and damage types for the various skills.
The Spirit tree is really an odd one. It has DD and DoT skills, passives to increase the various skills, CC skills and some utilities. The skills have a common theme and seem to work well together. However other than the brief mention of the spirit realm in the lore this tree doesn't connect to the whole evil, jungle-commanding, undead summoning WD vibe they have going with the other trees. There is also overlap between the DD and DoT spells of the Spirit and the Voodoo tree. Choice between these only affects the aesthetics of your WD and not his playstyle.
Sometimes it is too obvious we don't need to have the game to grasp it, for example .. on the subject of making WD sacrifice all his summons, who said all of them should be like that, only the Z.dogs where called "disposable".
Blizz said they wanted the WD to sacrifice his minions. They specifically said they didn't want another Summoner. They wanted something that plays differently. They aren't bringing in the skills to allow people to do that.
Making other summons disposable will overlap their function and will make the other summons (like Gargantuan) more effective as a sacrifice since it will naturally have much more HP, and (More HP = much more sacrifice damage) .. i'd rather each summon serves a unique purpose.
When it comes to Sacrifice there can be a lot less overlap than you imagine. First of all the consequences of sacrificing a single Zombie Dog or your only Gargantuan are vastly different. There are tons of ways to replace Zombie Dogs even without you doing anything. Replacing a Gargantuan is harder, but you will get more damage.
Another possibility would be to add a different effect upon death. For example lets say that the Zombie Dog does a normal explosion. The Gargantuan could release a could of Parasites or create an effect similar to Grasp of the Dead. Different effects lead to tactical decisions.
Right now the only reason the Gargantuan and Zombie Dogs are different is because you can explode one of them. They already overlap a lot in function and purpose. Both are tanks. A strong one or a few lesser ones. Presumably you can have both at the same time. There is nothing that differentiates them. I really wish Blizz would look more into this and give both skills a more unique feel.
I do see a benefit from increasing life of zombie dogs for sacrifice. Since sacrifice is based off of percentage of health, increasing zombie dogs health will also increase damage from sacrifice.
I'm not doubting the usefulness of increasing the Zombie Dog's life for increased damage. I just find it odd that there is a skill that increases their life and damage. This will make them better tanks. If they are better tanks why would I want to Sacrifice them? They do a better job holding off the monsters while the WD can concentrate on lobbing DD and DoT skills. Unless their damage when Sacrificed becomes so large that DD and DoT skills pale in comparison it is better to have tanks and do the damage yourself. That seems completely opposite to what they want to achieve.
This discussion made me think Skill Runes are a really bad mechanic publicity-wise:
I mean, as Bashiok keep saying "and then you put a Rune into it" and your skill looks awesome, but meanwhile, in demos and gameplay videos (some of) the non-Runic skills look highly unimpressive. And as this is the first impression for many gamers- That's pretty bad.
On topic- Mantis is too right. I'm confused how Blizz haven't seen these stuff themselves. I have strong belief in Blizz that they WILL fix this and make the WD awesome, and that's the main reason I'm currently disappointed they still haven't made anything about this.
Knight_Wolf
24-09-2009, 17:02
I'm not doubting the usefulness of increasing the Zombie Dog's life for increased damage. I just find it odd that there is a skill that increases their life and damage. This will make them better tanks.
Fact is they will never be a better tank because you already have one, yes .. the "Gargantuan" is the best tank, and that skill increases the HP and damage of both so it won't make zombie dogs better tanks at all, it will just make them better "sacrifices".
That seems completely opposite to what they want to achieve.
We can't claim to fully understand what they want to achieve with the WD now .. maybe they changed their minds about some things and want to make him a summoner/caster hybrid .. which is fine, but without any WD related official statements there is no way to be sure which direction the WD is going now ... IMO don't put too much thought into this.
One thing to keep in mind about fire/poison direct damage spells is that the Witch Doctor has some pretty unique, "all-purpose" passive buffs:
Leader of the Pack: +1-5% spell damage per Mongrel
Spirit Sense: +10-50% spell damage against monsters with less than 25-45% of their health
Rituals: Increases spell damage by 10-50% of your vitality (aided by Jungle Fortitude, which seriously buffs your vitality)
Blood Rites: 5-25% boost to your spell damage for 12 seconds after taking a health globe
I wonder if this also applies to minion damage. I doubt it, but it would be an interesting feature, and would make summoner builds much more viable.
The Witch Doctor looks like he's going to play a lot like the Warlock from WoW. Powerful damage over time spells, reasonably powerful direct damage spells, and whole bunch of minions and mind control spells to tinker with.
I do believe that a summoner build will be viable. Whether you can swarm the map with a strong minion army or just play like D2's Fishymancer (in which a summoner Necromancer would simply use his army to produce corpses, which would then be used for Corpse Explosion - I imagine you could create a similar chain with the Witch Doctor by using Parasite on mobs, and using Sacrifice on your Mongrels, which would only produce more Monrels to continue the chain) in unclear at this time.
I agree with Mantis that you need more than two viable builds to keep a character interesting, however. It's not enough to just say that you can choose fire or poison; a fire WD and a poison WD are still centered around nuking the enemy and using minions or crowd control spells as a distraction. As far as I'm concerned, they're both the same build, which is centered around direct damage.
What if we had a viable mind control Witch Doctor that could wreak havoc using skills like Mass Confusion and Hex (whatever Hex does)? Maybe Blizzard made Mass Confusion a top-tier skill for a reason. With a third, more unorthodox (but still reasonably competitive) build like that, the Witch Doctor would feel more complete and flexible.
THE WITCHDOCTOR ISN'T FINSIHED PEOPLE! Mantis, you don't realize that they are still working on the game do you? They have already messed around with the skill trees making them smaller by getting rid of passives, meaning they have to make sure they get all the passives right. Im almost 100% sure there will be a fire or poison build. Also for the people saying that mongrel/firebomb is the only viable build do you not realize those are level 1 skills? I highly doubt blizzard would want the first skill you use to be the only skill you use, kinda defeats the purpose of creating higher level skills.
Right now the only reason the Gargantuan and Zombie Dogs are different is because you can explode one of them. They already overlap a lot in function and purpose. Both are tanks. A strong one or a few lesser ones. Presumably you can have both at the same time. There is nothing that differentiates them. I really wish Blizz would look more into this and give both skills a more unique feel.
Do you not remember D2?? The nec had skele warriors and mages, do they overlap? or wait he also had 4 different golems?? wow that went into the game but 2 different skills that you haven't even seen yet (gargantuan) are overlapping?? Or how bout the druid? He had 2 different kinds of wolves and a bear?? they "overlapped" didnt they?? So i don't see how you can complain about 2 summons that don't even sound close to being the same.
The Voodoo skill tree lacks in direction. You have some summon-based DD and DoT skills. Then you have some non-summon based DD and DoT skills. There is a single passive that boosts damage based on the availability of health globes. There is a hell of a lot of overlap in this tree. Why didn't they go all out and focus on summon-based DD and DoT skills? It seems terribly appropriate for a WD. Solidify this concept and diversify the effects and damage types for the various skills.
The Spirit tree is really an odd one. It has DD and DoT skills, passives to increase the various skills, CC skills and some utilities. The skills have a common theme and seem to work well together. However other than the brief mention of the spirit realm in the lore this tree doesn't connect to the whole evil, jungle-commanding, undead summoning WD vibe they have going with the other trees. There is also overlap between the DD and DoT spells of the Spirit and the Voodoo tree. Choice between these only affects the aesthetics of your WD and not his playstyle.
I highly doubt all of the skills in those trees will stay in that tree, they will still have to edit the trees to make them feel together as a whole.
As for me, my favorite skill so far is plague of toads, it just seems cool.
Oh and someone said that the witchdoctor's spirit tree doesn't fit? (sorry couldnt find to quote) thats ridculous, the witchdoctors in indian tribes were there to go into the spirtual realm and heal people, so saying that a witchdoctor using spirts doesn't fit is like a wizard not using magic.
Deckard Cain
25-09-2009, 00:20
It is all what we saw because that's all there is for now, almost 80% of the WD skills in the latest Blizzcon demo were still being improved, are WIP and not usable, how do you consider that any indication that the WD only viable build is the fire-bomb + zombie dog combo when those are mostly the only two fully finalized abilities !!!
You really don't understand what i'm trying to say at all do you? I was saying that this is all Blizzard has right now. I also said that i'm sure the WD will have more viable builds. I just thought it seemed pretty clear that this was all blizzard has at the time.
It isn't an indication of anything other than the WD being behind in development schedule.
This is also what i beleive.
Why nobody made a spirit doctor in the Blizzcon demo .. simply becasue it was impossible to do so with more than 80% of the skills locked and WIP.
Again, this is what i'm saying.......... Blizzard will get some more builds but right now they are really struggling for ideas, or not working on the WD enough. To disagree with what i'm saying would be disagreeing with what you just said.
And as for the Jack of all trades (as in using a rational mix of skills across all trees .. it isn't about putting one point in every skill), it is sill both viable and possible since there are many possibilities here that can work (and some that won't of course).
I completely understood what you meant by the Jack of all trades build. I was just trying to point out that just because the build was possible does not mean it is viable. I don't see why you can say a build is viable when we have no idea how it works, and blizzard hasn't even worked it out yet.
How can you say all that they have for the WD is the zombie dogs when we actually never got to see more than half the skills and actually tried out even less than that.
How can you say that these builds you are thinking up are viable yet also say "we have never got to see more than half the skills and actually tried out even less" ???? its a bit hard to say builds are viable when the game is not even completed.
All in all .. like i said over and over ... it is way too early to pass any judgment over the WD.
Apparently it is too early to criticize current development, but early enough to say the WD has plenty of viable builds.
Deckard Cain
25-09-2009, 00:26
What I'd really like to see is skills that allow the creation of four or five builds that actually require you to play the char differently. Blizz had a good idea with the Barb in D2. There was a difference between a Singer, a WW-er, a Concentrate build, a Frenzybarb and a Leaper. However these builds still agreed with the core concept of the class. I'm sure they CAN do it for the WD, but right not it isn't there.
This is what i'm hoping for as well.
I'm not doubting the usefulness of increasing the Zombie Dog's life for increased damage. I just find it odd that there is a skill that increases their life and damage. This will make them better tanks. If they are better tanks why would I want to Sacrifice them? They do a better job holding off the monsters while the WD can concentrate on lobbing DD and DoT skills. Unless their damage when Sacrificed becomes so large that DD and DoT skills pale in comparison it is better to have tanks and do the damage yourself. That seems completely opposite to what they want to achieve.
I was just thinking about this. Maybe zombie dogs can act as minor tanks during very very early parts of the game. This could be a balancing issue that helps WD get through until they get more active spells. I think a good idea would be to give the zombie dogs very poor armor and resistance scaling. This would greatly encourage the WD to explode them, and they wouldn't be able to tank.
However, if they don't do this i am also confused. If the zdogs can tank why would the WD want to explode them?
Knight_Wolf
25-09-2009, 01:01
I don't have a problem with Summoners. I like huge armies and strong minions. I think that it is odd if Blizz keeps saying that minions should be disposable and then giving us skills that do exactly the opposite. That makes me question if Blizz know what the hell they want with the build.
The skills don't do the opposite, they make them better sacrifices like i said above .. and make the Gargantuan (who they never mentioned as a disposable minion) a better attacker and tank .. there is no problem here at all.
They never said all his minions will be disposable .. that is meant for the Zombie Dogs only.
Blizz said they wanted the WD to sacrifice his minions. They specifically said they didn't want another Summoner. They wanted something that plays differently. They aren't bringing in the skills to allow people to do that.
Again, they only said they wanted the WD to be able to sacrifice his Zombie Dogs when they have outdone their usefulness, not all his minions, the difference is obvious, go watch the D3 debut video again.
However other than the brief mention of the spirit realm in the lore this tree doesn't connect to the whole evil, jungle-commanding, undead summoning WD vibe they have going with the other trees.
Why is that !!!, theme wise it fits perfectly, entering the spiritual world and dealing with spirits is something Witch Doctors in all cultures and lore do (in which they also deal with the undead, curses and poison) .. it fits 100%.
Right now the only reason the Gargantuan and Zombie Dogs are different is because you can explode one of them. They already overlap a lot in function and purpose. Both are tanks. A strong one or a few lesser ones. Presumably you can have both at the same time. There is nothing that differentiates them. I really wish Blizz would look more into this and give both skills a more unique feel.
Sorry but that's totally incorrect, they are nothing alike.
Zombie dogs:-
-Low Damage (compared to Gargantuan)
-Have low HP (compared to Gargantuan)
-Best used for a distraction
-Can be sacrificed
-Fast moving
-Come in numbers (4 or 5)
Gargantuan:-
-High Damage
-Have lots of HP
-Probably Slow
-Best used as a Tank
-Single monster
Aside from all those differences above even more can be added by using skill runes, but even without them they are still nothing alike.
I'm not doubting the usefulness of increasing the Zombie Dog's life for increased damage. I just find it odd that there is a skill that increases their life and damage. This will make them better tanks. If they are better tanks why would I want to Sacrifice them?
As i mentioned few posts above, they will never be better tanks as the role is reserved for the Gargantuan .. it clearly outdoes them as a tank and is better suited for it, Zombie dogs getting more HP and ATK only make them better distractions and sacrifices, but not tanks.
As to why sacrifice them, that's the only logical thing to do with them, their damage and HP are low compared to the Gargantuan, blowing them up before they die or near low HP parasited enemies makes a lot of sense.
They do a better job holding off the monsters while the WD can concentrate on lobbing DD and DoT skills. Unless their damage when Sacrificed becomes so large that DD and DoT skills pale in comparison it is better to have tanks and do the damage yourself. That seems completely opposite to what they want to achieve.
The Gargantuan will do a better job holding off enemies and damaging them directly, you don't have to babysit it, unlike the Zombie dogs .. they need your attention if you plan to use them correctly.
There is a reason skills like Parasite exist, you use your Zombie dogs as distractions (not tanks) and as soon as the enemy/s are down to 25% or less of their HP you parasite them and sacrifice the Zombie Dog/s near them to kill them and create new Z.Dogs in the process.
Not to mention using this cycle you can increase you spell damage using the skill that increases you spell damage depending on how many Z.Dogs you have, meaning when you have them all your spells do more damage and you will be able to bring the HP of enemies down quicker and then parasite, sacrifice, more Z.dogs born .. etc etc .. which is totally differernt from how a Gargantuan works.
theeliminator
25-09-2009, 03:01
It's a tank. That is exactly opposite to what Blizz has been telling us about the WD. They keep hammering on the fact that they don't want a Summoner. That minions should be disposable. That we should view them as transitory. What do they do? They give us a tank. They give us a skill to transform the Zombie Dogs into tanks. That is not promoting the use of minions as spell, that is creating a Summoner.
When was the last time they said that the WD was not a summoner? Last time I heard them say that was at last year’s Blizzcon. Things can change Mantis. I think back when they first said it they had a different idea of what the WD was going to be, but after some time came to the conclusion that, if they didn't make him a summoner he would just be Wizard part 2.
Another thing is, you can condemn other people's theories by saying the game isn't done (how X skill will be) and then turn around and say you think there is only one playstyle. You can’t make that statement either if you use your logic.
Mad Mantis
25-09-2009, 08:34
DISCLAMER: This post is very long. I tried to answer everyone so there might be a lot of overlap in the answers. I separated the responses to different posters with a dashed line.
without any WD related official statements there is no way to be sure which direction the WD is going now ... IMO don't put too much thought into this.
It's too true that we know very little about the char. But there isn't a lot of other stuff we can do when it comes to the WD so we might as well analyze what we do know.
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What if we had a viable mind control Witch Doctor that could wreak havoc using skills like Mass Confusion and Hex (whatever Hex does)? Maybe Blizzard made Mass Confusion a top-tier skill for a reason. With a third, more unorthodox (but still reasonably competitive) build like that, the Witch Doctor would feel more complete and flexible.
The idea of a Mind Control WD sounds good to me. It could lead to a very interesting playstyle. Although I am not certain that they made Mass Confusion a top-tier skill because it is so powerful. They are probably just still toying with the appropriate tier allocation.
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Mantis, you don't realize that they are still working on the game do you?
Actually I do. I'm all too aware that the game is far from finished. That is why I'm concentrating on what they have done now and have said up to this point. These things might be changed in the future. Analyzing what we know of the WD now might give some clue as to what has to change in the future, what might be changed and what could be changed.
Do you not remember D2?? The nec had skele warriors and mages, do they overlap?
Are Mages and Skellies both melee specialists designed to be tanks? Are Mages and Skellies both ranged magic users designed to provide utility damage from a distance? No. They both have very clear roles. It would be more appropriate to compare a Clay Golem with Skellies. Or Dire Wolves with Grizzly.
or wait he also had 4 different golems?
All with a different element, design and intended purpose. Nothing in the skill description at this point seems to allude to the Gargantuan dealing a special type of damage or having a special sort of attack. So at this point they are both physical damage dealing tanks. One is alone and tough, the others are many and weak.
Or how bout the druid? He had 2 different kinds of wolves and a bear?? they "overlapped" didnt they?
They completely overlapped. They overlapped so much that the lowest tier of Wolf skills was useless. The choice was do I want three slightly more damaging but slightly weaker tanks. Or one slightly less damaging but stronger tank. Complete overlap and nothing more than a false choice.
I highly doubt all of the skills in those trees will stay in that tree, they will still have to edit the trees to make them feel together as a whole.
Probably. All I said is that right now they don't feel as a complete unity appropriate for a WD. Don't get me wrong. I like the Spirit tree and what can be achieved with it. I just think that at this point in the development of the WD it doesn't feel as if it belongs.
Oh and someone said that the witchdoctor's spirit tree doesn't fit? (sorry couldnt find to quote) thats ridculous, the witchdoctors in indian tribes were there to go into the spirtual realm and heal people, so saying that a witchdoctor using spirts doesn't fit is like a wizard not using magic.
Yes, I said the Spirit tree doesn't fit. I couldn't give a rat's *** about what WD's do in real life. Right now the Spirit tree feels off. There has been one slight mention of the Spirit realm in the lore. The rest of the char seems completely focused on zombies and jungle beasts. No mention of the spirit realm in any of the trees. It doesn't feel connected to the rest of the character. It might change when things are finalized but that is not what I am discussing here.
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Maybe zombie dogs can act as minor tanks during very very early parts of the game. This could be a balancing issue that helps WD get through until they get more active spells.
Now I like the idea of having them purely around as fodder. The problem stems from their damage being tied to their health. In order for the explosion to be worth anything they would need high health. If they have high health they make really good tanks. I wouldn't want to kill off all my tanks. Making the explosion damage dependent on something else would go a long way to making Zombie Dogs nothing more than cannon fodder.
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The skills don't do the opposite, they make them better sacrifices like i said above .. and make the Gargantuan (who they never mentioned as a disposable minion) a better attacker and tank .. there is no problem here at all.
Yes, it makes them better sacrifices, but surely you can see that increasing health and damage will also make them vastly better tanks?
Again, they only said they wanted the WD to be able to sacrifice his Zombie Dogs when they have outdone their usefulness, not all his minions, the difference is obvious, go watch the D3 debut video again.
He only had a handful of skills back then and only one of them was a minion. Of course only Zombie Dogs were mentioned as being disposable. They said that Zombie Dogs would be the first of his minions and that they would be expendable and not tanks. That means all of the minions.
Why is that !!!, theme wise it fits perfectly, entering the spiritual world and dealing with spirits is something Witch Doctors in all cultures and lore do (in which they also deal with the undead, curses and poison) .. it fits 100%.
It might fit the concept, but right now it doesn't tie in with the character. The tree has a different vibe to it than the others. There is no allusion to the spirit realm in any of the other trees. It doesn't come across as a coherent hole. I'm not disputing that the spirit tree can work for the character, right now I'm saying it doesn't feel connected to the WD as a whole.
Sorry but that's totally incorrect, they are nothing alike.
They are both melee tanks that deal physical damage. One skill has greater numbers but low damage and life and the other has a single strong minion and high damage. On average this should lead to almost the same result when tanking. Especially if you take into account the skills that resurrect Zombie Dogs when they die. So now you have a front of weak minions that constantly get replaced or a front of a single strong minion that is just hard to kill. How are they not alike?
The only real gameplay difference between the skills is whether or not you can explode them. And Blizz's intent seems to be to differentiate their roles by making the Zombie Dogs only suitable as Sacrifice. However they are going about it the wrong way. They tied damage to health. In order for the damage to be worth anything they really need high health. High health makes them good tanks. They should tie the Sacrifice damage to something else. That would make the Zombie Dogs only suitable for Sacrifice and reduce or remove the overlap between the skills.
Zombie dogs getting more HP and ATK only make them better distractions and sacrifices, but not tanks.
Why would getting more life and damage not make them better tanks? Don't all tanks require more life to tank better? There is even a skill to automatically (and at no cost) resurrect them when they die. Yes, this makes them better sacrifices as you can get your ammo back. But you must understand that this also makes your tanking front better since the tank will return when it is killed.
As to why sacrifice them, that's the only logical thing to do with them
Keeping them around and lobbing nukes is even more logical.
The Gargantuan will do a better job holding off enemies and damaging them directly, you don't have to babysit it, unlike the Zombie dogs
Unrelenting Assault could take a lot of the babysitting out of the Zombie Dogs.
Not to mention using this cycle you can increase you spell damage using the skill that increases you spell damage depending on how many Z.Dogs you have
Another reason to keep as many around as possible. The more you have ALIVE the more you'll be able to kill mobs while the Zombie Dogs tank. Killing off your Zombie Dogs will decrease your DPS. Unless killing off a single Zombie Dog does far more damage than a good nuke spell. For that to be true they need really high life, which would make them very good tanks.
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When was the last time they said that the WD was not a summoner?
The interviews after the BlizzCon mentioned it a few times.
I think back when they first said it they had a different idea of what the WD was going to be, but after some time came to the conclusion that, if they didn't make him a summoner he would just be Wizard part 2.
Any chance of you remembering which interview this was? I can't recall reading it. Should shed some light on what the WD will become.
Another thing is, you can condemn other people's theories by saying the game isn't done (how X skill will be) and then turn around and say you think there is only one playstyle.
Fair enough.
To Mad Mantis.
Poisonmancer has different play style than Bonemancer just because how poison nova work and how bone spells plus playing your poisonmancer you spend only 60 point for poison tree rest of points you can spend for example for mages as they prospect from same curse and for even more fluff you can wear full set to change yourself into vampire and cast few fire spells here and there.
Completely different playstyle than wall yourself and snipe things with spear and ghost. That is my opinion.
To Knight_Wolf
One minion will not help you with tanking. Just look at first movie where Barbarian was attack by tons of ghouls from all directions, but if Skellymancer would enter this situation his 15 skeletons and 15 skeletons mages would cover all directions without a problem.
Now the most important thing we do not know how ai will work in D3.
At least i do not know, maybe somebody who played WD at this blizzcon could light me up.
Where is problem. In Diablo 2 made by Blizzard North monsters just attacked nearest enemy and they didn't change or ignore target making this way summoner life easy.
In Titan Quest player is high on priority list so when monster fight your minion and you attack him, he would ignore your minion and go after you (even casting debuff was enough) making life for summoner pain in the ***.
In WoW Blizzard add threat meter, monster would by default attack attack nearest target but skip it if other target would generate more threat and go after it.
That's why Succubs, felhunter or imp are useless for tanking (not because of heatha s you see) and voidwalker is the best. This was making summoner life a constant checking threat meter instead of enjoy a fight but there is no true summoner in WoW, but still system stay.
So how is in Diablo 3 can someone enlighten me? How monsters react?
P.S. should i start new thread in WD forum about it?
Hi!
Mad Mantis you are missing a huge point. You say over and over again (been saying for many posts) that why would you want to sacriface your z-dogs as they can tank and you can lob some love skulls to the enemies?
One of the reasons i can make up from the top of my head is that you hit 2 enemies with parasite. Then you use a z-dog to explode and result in gaining 2 z-dogs and that leavels you having one more. The key is to have sacriface do more / different kind of damage than the skills you can use. Also gaining 1 from losing 1 is a good thing if you end up dealing alot of damage to many other enemies at the same time. In some situations you could parasite 5 enemies and blow up 5 z-dogs and the last explosion kills them all and results you gaining 5 more z-dogs.
What i see as a problem is that in end-game the z-dogs sacriface will do alot less damage than you can do with spells tus the z-dogs hp or damage done by exploding should increase by the WD stats. If the summons have no kind of scaling with gear they will end up being just a meat wall that follows you around or they will be OP compared to other builds/classes.
IMHO too little is know from garganthuan to make references to z-dogs but he seems like the golem as z-dogs are the skellies. It's to be seen how much mana is his casting going to take and if the skill has a long CD. (1 minute being a long CD in an ARPG) Truth is that he can't tank everything and you most likely need z-dogs with him as wide spread of enemies come running at you he can only keep few on himself from the start if he doesen't have some kind of aoe taunt or the enemies magically all target him.
Deckard Cain
25-09-2009, 18:16
Now I like the idea of having them purely around as fodder. The problem stems from their damage being tied to their health. In order for the explosion to be worth anything they would need high health. If they have high health they make really good tanks. I wouldn't want to kill off all my tanks. Making the explosion damage dependent on something else would go a long way to making Zombie Dogs nothing more than cannon fodder.
Yes, it makes them better sacrifices, but surely you can see that increasing health and damage will also make them vastly better tanks?
I see the connection between having more health and being a better tank (really its quite obvious) however, just because the zdogs have more health does not mean they will be tanks. I see the problem with needing the dogs to have high health for damage. One way they can deal with this though would be to give them low defense and low resists. Just think of a naked character with battle orders. Sure they have a decent amount of health, but that doesn't mean they won't die in a few hits. Just look at the naked ubers runs. They all pumped vit and had TONS of hp, but they were still very fragile and none of them could tank anything.
They are both melee tanks that deal physical damage. One skill has greater numbers but low damage and life and the other has a single strong minion and high damage. On average this should lead to almost the same result when tanking. Especially if you take into account the skills that resurrect Zombie Dogs when they die. So now you have a front of weak minions that constantly get replaced or a front of a single strong minion that is just hard to kill. How are they not alike?
I agree. I don't see how people are saying they are extremely different. My guess would be that right now they aren't. This is probably why we have yet to see the gargantuan. He is most likely a work in progress at this point.
Another reason to keep as many around as possible. The more you have ALIVE the more you'll be able to kill mobs while the Zombie Dogs tank. Killing off your Zombie Dogs will decrease your DPS. Unless killing off a single Zombie Dog does far more damage than a good nuke spell. For that to be true they need really high life, which would make them very good tanks.
Great point.... it indeed sounds quite contradictory to have summons that increase dps, yet their signature move destroys them. It's not like they are useful sacrifices at low health either...
Mad Mantis
26-09-2009, 09:20
So how is in Diablo 3 can someone enlighten me? How monsters react?
I don't think that anyone knows at this point in time. In D2 the PC's, minions and mercs all had their own threat value. That is why a CG gets attacked more often than Skellies. Presumably something like this will also be in D3, but we probably need the game files to find that out or a lot more time with the game.
One of the reasons i can make up from the top of my head is that you hit 2 enemies with parasite. Then you use a z-dog to explode and result in gaining 2 z-dogs and that leavels you having one more.
What troubles me about Sacrifice is why would I want to kill off this one Zombie Dog and loose a tank when I can just cast a Skull of Flame and have three Zombie Dogs? The way I see it your scenario only really works if Zombie Dogs do a lot of damage when you explode them. A lot more than a cast or two of Skull of Flame.
I'd really only Sacrifice Zombie Dogs if they were almost dead anyway and Sacrifice would work based on their max health.
The key is to have sacriface do more / different kind of damage than the skills you can use.
This is a pretty good idea to get around high resistances. But right now the WD has Spirit, Poison and Flame damage. I really hope that Blizz isn't going to introduce monsters with almost three immunities.
Having Sacrifice do more damage means that the life of Zombie Dogs needs to go up creating better tanks. They need to sever the connection between the life of Zombie Dogs and the damage of Sacrifice.
What i see as a problem is that in end-game the z-dogs sacriface will do alot less damage than you can do with spells tus the z-dogs hp or damage done by exploding should increase by the WD stats.
That's something that I thought about as well. I'm just thinking that the damage output from Sacrifice will be eclipsed by nuke spells rather quickly.
One way they can deal with this though would be to give them low defense and low resists.
That's a pretty good idea. At least it would void their role as tank and make them more useful as walking bombs. The only snag I see is with the Leader of the Pack skill. If Zombie Dogs die too fast it would make that skill useless.
It's not like they are useful sacrifices at low health either...
They could be if Sacrifice damage was based on the max health of Zombie Dogs instead of their current health. I don't know if we have information that confirms either mechanic.
Knight_Wolf
26-09-2009, 15:23
This is a pretty good idea to get around high resistances. But right now the WD has Spirit, Poison and Flame damage. I really hope that Blizz isn't going to introduce monsters with almost three immunities.
Spirit isn't an element as far as i know .. it should do direct damage .. and its vaule will be based on your spell damage bonus.
That makes Spirit attacks quite interesting and unique.
Having Sacrifice do more damage means that the life of Zombie Dogs needs to go up creating better tanks. They need to sever the connection between the life of Zombie Dogs and the damage of Sacrifice.
No, this doesn't lead to that.
There are many ways to make sacrifice more effective without making Z.dogs good tanks.
1-Making sacrifice damage based on Z.dogs max health.
2-Make sacrifice do damage by a 300% (or more) of remaining Z.dog health.
3-Give Z.dogs (zero) armor and (zero) resistance.
The only snag I see is with the Leader of the Pack skill. If Zombie Dogs die too fast it would make that skill useless.
No, it is still useful and encourages tactical skilled play .. specially that i demonstrated above you don't need raise their HP too high to make sacrifice effective.
Actually by using the (parasite, sacrifice) combo when you sacrifice one zombie dog you will be getting a new one or even more .. so sacrificing them will only decrease your DPS for 1 or 2 sec .. but if you are a bad player and can't use (parasite, sacrifice) combo effectively you will be losing the chance to have high DPS for much longer period (i.e if you spam sacrifice mindlessly)
It's all about the player skill at sacrificing the Z.dogs at the right time (to damage as many enemies as possible while gaining new Z.dogs instantly (thus not affecting your DPS at all)
They could be if Sacrifice damage was based on the max health of Zombie Dogs instead of their current health. I don't know if we have information that confirms either mechanic.
I think we already agree on this .. this is one possible way to keep sacrifice effective without giving Z.Dogs too much HP and making them tanks.
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Now that we mention that .. the Gargantuan could also have a very high armor and resistance value and the zombie dogs don't.
As for the comment comparing the Gargantuan to the Necro Golems .. well .. skill runes exist for a reason .. and one of their results is making base skill a little more bland so when runes are added they can change how the skill works in interesting ways .. if the skill is too complex or too interesting as a base it will be very hard to make any interesting rune adjustments to it.
In other words (Simple Garguntain + Skill runes = many interesting Gargantuan variations) each made for a differernt purpose and goal .. exactly like having four Golem skills .. except you have to pick one that fits your build and playstyle .. same for the Z.dogs .. this reduces the overlap possible (i.e like in the case of the druid having tow overlapping wolf types)
Okay there is way to much stuff for me to quote for and say my part so im just skippin to the important things.
Keeping them around and lobbing nukes is even more logical.
i agree completely. the more zdogs the more distractions, the less you get attacked, and when you have 5-7 other skills to choose from that do good damage i dont see the point in destroying your distractions, yes there would be good times to sacrifice them but in the middle of the game i highly doubt i want to get rid of my distractions.
As for the comment comparing the Gargantuan to the Necro Golems .. well .. skill runes exist for a reason .. and one of their results is making base skill a little more bland so when runes are added they can change how the skill works in interesting ways .. if the skill is too complex or too interesting as a base it will be very hard to make any interesting rune adjustments to it.
In other words (Simple Garguntain + Skill runes = many interesting Gargantuan variations) each made for a differernt purpose and goal .. exactly like having four Golem skills .. except you have to pick one that fits your build and playstyle .. same for the Z.dogs .. this reduces the overlap possible (i.e like in the case of the druid having tow overlapping wolf types)
i forgot about that and it makes complete since and that will be the main differences, thank you for reminding me of that. Also blizzard said that when they took away the fire/poison add-ons to the zdogs they did it cause it was kinda pointless, well ya id guess so since everyone is saying they just want to sacrfice them, im not sure thats completely the point, but then they said they would probably use those idea and put them to the runes where they add the damage, so that proves right there that runes will change the way you use your zdogs.
Mad Mantis
28-09-2009, 07:44
1-Making sacrifice damage based on Z.dogs max health.
2-Make sacrifice do damage by a 300% (or more) of remaining Z.dog health.
3-Give Z.dogs (zero) armor and (zero) resistance.
We have no idea about whether 1 is true or not. I really hope that they make Sacrifice dependent on max health instead of current health. Current health would pretty much kill the idea without some overly powerful rune in the skill.
The skill description is vague on point 2. From the initial rank it does 20% of the ZD's life. While it might scale to over 100% it seems a bit unlikely. I think that this is the best option of increasing the usefulness of Sacrifice while keeping the ZD's as bad tanks. This would also make Sacrifice a viable alternative to a high powered nuke spell.
While point 3 is a good way to keep them down as tanks you'd have to be careful not to make them too weak later in the game or they won't even be around long enough to explode.
In other words (Simple Garguntain + Skill runes = many interesting Gargantuan variations) each made for a differernt purpose and goal .. exactly like having four Golem skills .. except you have to pick one that fits your build and playstyle .. same for the Z.dogs .. this reduces the overlap possible (i.e like in the case of the druid having tow overlapping wolf types)
While I agree that the rune mechanic could be used to further differentiate potentially overlapping skills I have to say that I find it to be a bit of a cheap way out for Blizz. The way it is used in Bashiok's comments it sounds almost as if the runes are used to fix poor skill design.
I'd really like it if skills were different and interesting enough on their own. I understand that they want to push the mechanic and use of runes as much as possible, but unless those runes are incredibly common a new char is going to spend a lot of time without runes. I'd rather have them make the base skill interesting enough.
Hi!
The skill description is vague on point 2. From the initial rank it does 20% of the ZD's life. While it might scale to over 100% it seems a bit unlikely. I think that this is the best option of increasing the usefulness of Sacrifice while keeping the ZD's as bad tanks. This would also make Sacrifice a viable alternative to a high powered nuke spell.
How you think it will scale then? I'm pretty sure it's going to be 20% per level so if you can go to 15 skillpoints it could be 300%. I also was thinking that it might have larger radius than the other aoe nukes. :/ Tho this would mean every point invested in the skill would scale pretty well.
The problem i see with this is that the use of the skill is situational at best. This is true atleast if the damage is tied to the current HP. Also 15 points sounds alot for a skill that you will be using now and then and could be done with other skills that are more well rounded.
And about the runes... there could be insane things like make zdogs scale with WD vitality and then you have all out vitality build with the corresponding vitality skills... I'm pretty afraid about every skill that will be made to scale with vitality for WD as he has good vit skills that scale up by level and items really well.
As for me, my favorite skill so far is plague of toads, it just seems cool.
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You sir HAVE GOT to be kidding me.
P.S- This thread made me think Skill Runes are a real bad way to go image-wise. I mean- Sure, the skills would look awesome with a Rune in it (LOL look at the Panel from '08 with everyone saying "wooow" when the Firebomb jumps), but when new gamers first see the game all they see is less- impressing skills. And you know first impression is everything.
My favorite is still zombie wall but they need after some short time just spread around it could give more depth, right now is just fancy animation but no complexity.
Btw. why i would want to use mongrels for tank if i have access to wall of zombies? If they will work like bone wall i will without problem block attackers.
Mad Mantis
29-09-2009, 15:23
How you think it will scale then? I'm pretty sure it's going to be 20% per level so if you can go to 15 skillpoints it could be 300%.
Crappit, I keep forgetting that we can advance the ranks beyond the initial 5. Although depending on how many skills we can advance past level 5 I'm not so sure I'd want to spend it on sacrifice instead of say, Skull of Flame.
LittleOldLady
01-10-2009, 09:03
I always thought that Blizz said that the WD's minions wouldn't be his major source of damage, not that they wouldn't be tanks. Thus the gargantuan might be a great tank that (very) rarely dies, but that doesn't really do much in the way of damage.
I also think it would be better if the skill Ferocity increased gargantuan health, and zombie dog explosion damage. This would stop the WD from becoming a "hands-off" summoner, which seemed to be the original idea.
Keep in mind though, that some people might like having a hands-off summoner. It should be an option. Otherwise there will only be one viable build, which would be a quick way to kill any long-term interest in the class.
Hi!
Keep in mind though, that some people might like having a hands-off summoner. It should be an option. Otherwise there will only be one viable build, which would be a quick way to kill any long-term interest in the class.
The problem is that developers often want the players to play the game and not the game to play itself. Stading back and from time to time hast a spell could be achieved by looking a clool video and then set the screen saver to 1 minute to beat it and move the cursor before the screensaver comes up again.
Yes i know people like all out summoner. I eaven like them to some extenct (played one in GW). In an all out gear grind game it's pretty nifty to grind gear for more sitting back and not doing anything eaven more.
mascraclo
13-11-2009, 06:19
maybe the only 'relatively' original char so far. skills just sound like more or less a rehash of d2's necromancer. shoulda gone with voodoo potion making skill tree or something more original like that since potions are going to be out in d3. exploding potions, buffing potions, debuffing potions, healing potions, etc. i think that woulda made the WD a lot more "WD".
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A thought occurred to me:
The Witch Doctor seems lackluster less because of his actual skills, and is more due to how his character and skills feel and appear in the game.
That may seem semantic. But it's actually a big difference. The Witch Doctor's skills aren't bad from a gameplay perspective. But the Witch Doctor's skills don't dominate the screen like the other three classes' skills do. When I see gameplay videos where multiple classes are playing together, I always lose sight of the Witch Doctor character (whereas I can easily spot a Barbarian or Wizard).
The Wizard has a light show, the Barbarian looks like he's smashing the world inside out, and the Monk features exploding blood and guts every other minute. What does the Witch Doctor feature? Exploding skulls and frogs.
My solution? Shock value.
The Witch Doctor is essentially the "dark character." He should play accordingly. The Witch Doctor's skills need more shock value to make him feel more threatening and memorable. This should be reflected not only in the skills he has, but in the presentation of those skills - their graphics and sounds.
The "Corpse Spider" skill - where spiders burst from a zombie chest or crawl from its mouth - is a positive step in this direction. The Witch Doctor needs more skills that can produce a "what the ****?!" reaction.
Even though the Witch Doctor is actually a good guy according to the lore, embracing the "evil" vibe may be a good way for the developers to carve out his niche. What do you guys think?
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