What is the point of hardcore?

[Runestar]

I raised a similar point in another thread and this made me realize that perhaps I don't understand the whole HC culture as well as I should have. So I have come here to seek enlightenment. :thumbup:

To be honest, HC has always struck me as being superfluous. Why do you need a computer to enforce a particular style of play (in this case, no death)? Why not simply play a SC character and delete him when he dies? If HC is all about the mindset, then why would you play any differently regardless of whether he was HC or SC?

I have tried either option many times, and found myself to be indifferent between the 2. Sure, it was difficult to delete that lv60 necromancer (which was also the highest I had ever gone at that time), but the 1st is always the hardest. The rest got easier. Is there something about HC which makes it harder, like tougher foes or rarer drops?

There will be some who argue that it is virtually impossible to determine if another SC character has died or not. Maybe there could be a way of telling just how many times a character has died in D3. If zero deaths, he is as good as HC. If he has died even once, then he has transitioned to SC, and the onus is really on him whether he wishes to continue playing, or restart over.

No offense to everyone here, but really, what is the point? :scratchchin:

[Cormac McArt]

Manfred Hoeberl once said Bodybuilding contests and Strongman contests distinguish boys from men. Same between Softcore and Hardcore (3PPs-free) ...

[Darkflight]

Manfred Hoeberl once said Bodybuilding contests and Strongman contests distinguish boys from men. Same between Softcore and Hardcore (3PPs-free) ...

Bodybuilding contests and strongman contests distinguishes between people who are willing to spend all their time making their body what they percieve as perfect, and the ones who don't.

I think Mr. Manfred would have been smart to spend a little less time in the gym and a little more time reading books so he would have known what the definition of "boy" and "man" is. Maybe his opinion is that he was a man and I am a boy, but my opinion is that he was an idiot and I am a relatively normal and intelligent person.

Hardcore people are no better then softcore people in any way. The hardcore people get their rush from risking not beeing able to play that character again. The softcore people get their rush from playing the game and building their characters until they tire of them.

It all depends on what your drug is.

[BrotherRatcliff]

In single player I agree with you, but in multiplayer there is a benefit. That benefit is that you know all the people you are playing around are following the same rules. Softcore players tend to play more recklessly and playing hardcore along side them can get you killed. If somebody else pulls too many monsters or is stupid and dies (leaving you alone) it's no fun, those things are less likely to happen when playing with other hardcore players.

A good example of this is simple communication. On hardcore (west anyway) we use a system of numbers to say if a TP is safe or dangerous for people to enter. When playing on softcore the people I was with had no such system, they would just throw up a TP in a bunch of guys with no warning to those about to enter.

Griefing can also be a concern, it's too easy to swamp a WP/TP with monsters and watch the hardcore guy go in and die. There is also economy benefits because hardcore deaths recycle the item pool. Having it's own independent trading helps items trade for their true value in that community.

The last and most simple point of hardcore is that it is more fun to overcome an externally-imposed restriction than a self-imposed one. Even if you are checking the hardcore box, it still feels like a challenge the game is giving you, not one you're giving yourself. This also ties into simple will-power. You can have the will to press that little checkbox because you're looking at a level 1 chr, not the level 90 that it may become one day. If you have to make the hardcore or not decision late int he chrs life (whenever you die) it's much harder to do. Having a dedicated mode holds you to that, no option for cheating.

[sunkenfaith]

@BrotherRatcliff: you summed it up nicely.

[Seryphim]

To me, one of the things I like most about playing Hardcore is that it feels like there is actually something to strive towards that isn't for granted.

What happened to me was, I got bored a few weeks ago and decided to load up Diablo II and see how it went. Within about two or three days I had a level 86 Sorceress that I was leveling easily in bot run games on B.Net, but the whole process seemed so pointless. I knew that as long as I logged enough hours, my Sorceress would gain levels.

However, on Hardcore, that's not always the case. If you look at the Hardcore ladder, people have died at levels 95 and up (and below as well, of course) which means that no matter how high up you get or how good you or your gear is, something can happen (PK, lag, bad play, crazy mod combo) and your character CAN die, and that'll be it. Literally game over for that character. There is something about HC and feeling as if I have to be on my toes and paying attention or risk losing hours and hours of work (I now have a nearly level93 Sorceress on Hardcore... having her die would be a fair amount of time wasted) that I find much more appealing than simple Bot run grinding.

Darkflight said that Hardcore people are not better than Softcore people in any way, and on a certain level I do agree that the whole concept of "HC = 1337, SC = N00B!!" to be pretty silly, but there is a level of that that I think is true. It does take a certain level of commitment / maturity to play Hardcore, stick with it, and get to the higher levels. Are there mature Softcore players? Of course, just as there are immature Hardcore players. But, I still find that many people interested in playing Hardcore are mature as a result of the mental leap it takes to play Hardcore, and I prefer playing in a community with people like that.

Another big advantage in Hardcore, for me, is that the ladder is much less developed. Since, as I mentioned before, there is the possibility of "game over" and leveling up isn't solely measured by time commitment, the ladder isn't untouchable for players who start characters even now, and this ladder has been going for quite some time.

I know the ladder isn't very accurate, or important, but I think it would be cool to have my character's name up there anyway, since I haven't had one on the ladder in years. Even though I started her a few weeks ago, my Sorceress is only two levels from being on it, which is cool to me.

[TheBlueGhost]

All this talk of HC has me itching to play some :alright:

[KingOfKings]

Bodybuilding contests and strongman contests distinguishes between people who are willing to spend all their time making their body what they percieve as perfect, and the ones who don't.

I think Mr. Manfred would have been smart to spend a little less time in the gym and a little more time reading books so he would have known what the definition of "boy" and "man" is. Maybe his opinion is that he was a man and I am a boy, but my opinion is that he was an idiot and I am a relatively normal and intelligent person.

Hardcore people are no better then softcore people in any way. The hardcore people get their rush from risking not beeing able to play that character again. The softcore people get their rush from playing the game and building their characters until they tire of them.

It all depends on what your drug is.

some drugs are harder and better :thumbup:

[KingOfKings]

In single player I agree with you, but in multiplayer there is a benefit. That benefit is that you know all the people you are playing around are following the same rules. Softcore players tend to play more recklessly and playing hardcore along side them can get you killed. If somebody else pulls too many monsters or is stupid and dies (leaving you alone) it's no fun, those things are less likely to happen when playing with other hardcore players.

A good example of this is simple communication. On hardcore (west anyway) we use a system of numbers to say if a TP is safe or dangerous for people to enter. When playing on softcore the people I was with had no such system, they would just throw up a TP in a bunch of guys with no warning to those about to enter.

Griefing can also be a concern, it's too easy to swamp a WP/TP with monsters and watch the hardcore guy go in and die. There is also economy benefits because hardcore deaths recycle the item pool. Having it's own independent trading helps items trade for their true value in that community.

The last and most simple point of hardcore is that it is more fun to overcome an externally-imposed restriction than a self-imposed one. Even if you are checking the hardcore box, it still feels like a challenge the game is giving you, not one you're giving yourself. This also ties into simple will-power. You can have the will to press that little checkbox because you're looking at a level 1 chr, not the level 90 that it may become one day. If you have to make the hardcore or not decision late int he chrs life (whenever you die) it's much harder to do. Having a dedicated mode holds you to that, no option for cheating.

well said sir :)

[Darkflight]

some drugs are harder and better :thumbup:

There are no such thing as a "better" drug. Drugs are all about your reaction to them, and people have individual reactions and preferences. It's the same with music. There is no bad music, because good and bad are defined by taste.

The reckless and chaotic gameplay was what drove me to Diablo 2 in the first place. Playing hardcore actually makes the drug less effective on me, since I have to be careful about not dieing. And since one of my goals in Diablo 2 was to collect unique/set/runes I couldn't play reckless and chaotic in hardcore.

To me, hardcore is like a job. And I don't play games because they feel like work, I play them because they feel like fun.

[GoBigRed]

There are no such thing as a "better" drug. Drugs are all about your reaction to them, and people have individual reactions and preferences. It's the same with music. There is no bad music, because good and bad are defined by taste.

The reckless and chaotic gameplay was what drove me to Diablo 2 in the first place. Playing hardcore actually makes the drug less effective on me, since I have to be careful about not dieing. And since one of my goals in Diablo 2 was to collect unique/set/runes I couldn't play reckless and chaotic in hardcore.

To me, hardcore is like a job. And I don't play games because they feel like work, I play them because they feel like fun.

Diablo 2 is a pretty easy pvm game depending on the class/build you use, like a terribly equipped summon necro can solo the game relatively easy and several other classes can as well. I do agree that on hardcore you have to be more careful(especially early on) but you can reach a point when you've gathered enough gear along with good stat/skill allocation that you can be pretty "reckless and chaotic" and I find it alot more enjoyable when I can be like that with only one life. I guess in a way I view a video game as what's the point of it if there's no fear of losing, losing a little exp and gold isn't losing. Pretty much every video game I play I try to find ways to make it harder for myself because I enjoy the "rush?/sense of accomplishment" that comes from beating something I know is difficult and that many others couldn't accomplish or are to lazy to accomplish. As fun as playing a God persay in a game is, I find that will only keep me entertained for about a week if that.

[Darkflight]

Diablo 2 is a pretty easy pvm game depending on the class/build you use, like a terribly equipped summon necro can solo the game relatively easy and several other classes can as well. I do agree that on hardcore you have to be more careful(especially early on) but you can reach a point when you've gathered enough gear along with good stat/skill allocation that you can be pretty "reckless and chaotic" and I find it alot more enjoyable when I can be like that with only one life. I guess in a way I view a video game as what's the point of it if there's no fear of losing, losing a little exp and gold isn't losing. Pretty much every video game I play I try to find ways to make it harder for myself because I enjoy the "rush?/sense of accomplishment" that comes from beating something I know is difficult and that many others couldn't accomplish or are to lazy to accomplish. As fun as playing a God persay in a game is, I find that will only keep me entertained for about a week if that.

Your idea of reckless and chaotic clearly is different from mine.

I am talking about regulary putting yourself in situations where you have maybe 50% chance of surviving it, just to see if you could do it. If you do that in hardcore, you won't keep your character for long.

[GoBigRed]

Your idea of reckless and chaotic clearly is different from mine.

I am talking about regulary putting yourself in situations where you have maybe 50% chance of surviving it, just to see if you could do it. If you do that in hardcore, you won't keep your character for long.

You'd be suprised how reckless you can be and still remain alive on HC but yes with poor gear and builds, you'll end up with a high death toll playing all the time in such a manner.

[Cormac McArt]

Actually once you quit Diablo - the Real Life begins! And you're not a hero in it but at least all you do - you do it to you , you're the one gaining experience - not your shadow in another world and you really care not to die even not to "lose 1 HP"!

[Zoid]

Your idea of reckless and chaotic clearly is different from mine.

I am talking about regulary putting yourself in situations where you have maybe 50% chance of surviving it, just to see if you could do it. If you do that in hardcore, you won't keep your character for long.

In SC there is no 50% chance of survival. There may be a 50% chance of defeat, but it holds no significance as you're back on your feet right away.

To me, HC makes the game intense and exciting. If I'm playing HC and I **** up, I know that if I don't make it through I will have to start all over. The threat of loss makes it much more enjoyable.

[WizardFan]

Bodybuilding contests and strongman contests distinguishes between people who are willing to spend all their time making their body what they percieve as perfect, and the ones who don't.

I think Mr. Manfred would have been smart to spend a little less time in the gym and a little more time reading books so he would have known what the definition of "boy" and "man" is. Maybe his opinion is that he was a man and I am a boy, but my opinion is that he was an idiot and I am a relatively normal and intelligent person.

Not to derail the thread, but I agree. Even though I'm not a bodybuilder, but rather a lifter, I have found bodybuilding methods to be invaluable when it came to maximizing my strength as opposed to my weight.

[KingOfKings]

Diablo 2 is a pretty easy pvm game depending on the class/build you use, like a terribly equipped summon necro can solo the game relatively easy and several other classes can as well. I do agree that on hardcore you have to be more careful(especially early on) but you can reach a point when you've gathered enough gear along with good stat/skill allocation that you can be pretty "reckless and chaotic" and I find it alot more enjoyable when I can be like that with only one life. I guess in a way I view a video game as what's the point of it if there's no fear of losing, losing a little exp and gold isn't losing. Pretty much every video game I play I try to find ways to make it harder for myself because I enjoy the "rush?/sense of accomplishment" that comes from beating something I know is difficult and that many others couldn't accomplish or are to lazy to accomplish. As fun as playing a God persay in a game is, I find that will only keep me entertained for about a week if that.

lmao quit playing lod softcore, and try classic. come back and post the same, i really welcome you to do that. you lod players make me laugh so much. you have no idea of the challenge in the game, even if it was a failed xpansion gameplay wise.

[Rhaytan]

It's like playing golf with no mulligans!

But to answer the original question I'd have to say that the community and the economy are much different and it's a difference I like.

[Krazeyivan]

HC people tend to be in the game world more, enjoy tactics for certain situations and value their characters in a different way to SC.

I'm on europe and KTA rocks - the people in HC are great too.

[Oldih]

Point of hardcore is like extravagant überhard blow your mind off- difficulty found in some games (E.G. Master Ninja in Ninja Gaiden Black) - to give people some challenge and the thrill of challenge.

I could use IL-2 Sturmovik 1946 as an example, as me and three other guys I know occasionally play it online and we have spent great time learning formation flying, aerial combat manouvres and fighting as a group despite the fact none of us is a real air force pilot or has been one. It sure is some form of work and occasionally quite tiring, but we have found it satisfying and even 'fun', extremely fun occasionally.

Similiarly after playing classic hardcore for a while, it gives me a good reason for a diffrent approach which I do find quite fun and satisfying when you end up doing things out of the box. Anyone ever found how fun skill grim ward is against fanaticism extra fast (and extra strong) mob? :p

[Rashiminos]

The point of HC is to learn how to do it right the first time instead of running to your corpse (or some other feature). Diablo 2 for the perfectionista in you.

[Cormac McArt]

Point of hardcore is like extravagant überhard blow your mind off- difficulty found in some games (E.G. Master Ninja in Ninja Gaiden Black) - to give people some challenge and the thrill of challenge.

I could use IL-2 Sturmovik 1946 as an example, as me and three other guys I know occasionally play it online and we have spent great time learning formation flying, aerial combat manouvres and fighting as a group despite the fact none of us is a real air force pilot or has been one. It sure is some form of work and occasionally quite tiring, but we have found it satisfying and even 'fun', extremely fun occasionally.

Similiarly after playing classic hardcore for a while, it gives me a good reason for a diffrent approach which I do find quite fun and satisfying when you end up doing things out of the box. Anyone ever found how fun skill grim ward is against fanaticism extra fast (and extra strong) mob? :p
Or Leap, Howl, War Cry. And Slipping off Stunning you Mob with a Whirlwind. The Barb is the Ultimate Crowd Control Machine and the One Unstunnable! That's why I love him the most!

[Mess]

When i first began hc, it just was because i wanted to test how it's feeling to play a character that only lives once (i played d2 for many years, but always in sc).

Leveling was fun, i could actually find people who played the game (like fighting the way through to andariel). With lvl 55 i was killed by some cheating tppk guy. I was really pissed off and decided - because of that - to quit hc and just enjoy sc. But after having witnessed the hardcore experience sc never felt the same again. The thrill was gone.

To me hardcore provides a feeling where even mf runs to mephisto are fun, because you're always throwing something big into the pot :thumbup:. And without the tppkers, playing hc would be TEH ultimate experience.

Mess

P.S. I'm new, so hello diii.net forums ! :wave:

[Inkarnus]

Hardcore makes you a lot more satisfied every time you kill a champion or whatever and the bosses ofc.

Hardcore makes you sad and frustrated when you die from something stupid, like trust someones portal, or get lag and a doll kills you when it dies or something.

In softcore you dont bother so much if there is a bug in the game, or some spells are not balanced. In hardcore you get crazy if you find that :)

Only one way to find out. I suggest you first complete Hell once in softcore so you know the bosses, then try hardcore and see if it is something for you :thumbup:

[Nweb]

For me hardcore is a lot more fun than softcore for all the reasons people have mentioned. Though there are a lot of good posts in this thread, I don't believe that the difference in the two modes can be accurately explained in words. You gotta get up there and actually play hardcore for some time to personally understand the difference between that and softcore.

I remember when I first started playing hardcore I was almost literally sweating non stop :D. Now it's just this very pleasant feeling knowing that as every second goes by it is every second that you have overcome some trial or another and lived to fight again. Nothing in softcore beats that feeling :).

edit: oh and I would like to very much agree that hc without tppk and similar exploits will be phenomenal. I'd rather keep legit PK in though because knowing that someone could try and hunt you down (legitly) at any time really adds to the atmosphere.

[Kromp]

Hardcore is an interesting concept, but it still boggles my mind that people are willing to play it in an environment as unpredictable as Battle.Net usually is. A few years ago I had a barbarian that I got up through Nightmare, and nearly dying due to lag certainly didn't give me a thrill, it just made me frustrated that I almost lost a fair amount of time investment through no fault of my own.

It makes more sense in SP, but in this day and age I just don't really have enough patience to spend a lot of time on anything that isn't basically multiplayer in nature.

[Crudesash68]

I've tried many HC SP characters; best I've done is Hell Act V. I still enjoy the challenge of trying to do it single-pass, untwinked.

As it stands, there will be no non-consenting PvP in D3, so those who want to play without worrying about being PK'ed can do so. I fully expect the PvP flag to be a toggled option, so HC players who enjoy that thrill of being hunted can have that.

[palwe]

i agree with brotherratcliffs post first page, summed it up.

[IMMORTALKlNG]

Manfred Hoeberl once said Bodybuilding contests and Strongman contests distinguish boys from men. Same between Softcore and Hardcore (3PPs-free) ...

Very few can take the pain of losing a hight lvl character (85+). I love the risk. The reward is playing an adult game. When you die, you die. I have never played a game before d2 harcore where there are no extra lives.

The people I dont understand are those who hack. Theres a hack that HC players use that defeats the whole purpose of playing HC. They automaticcaly tp when their life par dips below a certain percentage...what ____in hypocrites!

[Norrit]

Very few can take the pain of losing a hight lvl character (85+). I love the risk. The reward is playing an adult game. When you die, you die. I have never played a game before d2 harcore where there are no extra lives.

The people I dont understand are those who hack. Theres a hack that HC players use that defeats the whole purpose of playing HC. They automaticcaly tp when their life par dips below a certain percentage...what ____in hypocrites!

well I believe for those players it's the whole "I play HC! I am 1337! you play sc? you're a n00b!" mindset again. They don't have the required nerve to play hc to its fullest (accepting that if you die, that's it) and so try to emulate a sc-like experience on "cheating death" (quite literally, actually) while still mantaining their own idea of being "1337" vs being a "n00b"

As for never playing a game with one life before, there are plenty of games that add that. Before d2 came out, my favorite past time was to try and beat metal gear solid (for the psone) in extreme mode while getting the best rank possible. That meant that being found by enemies = game over, using items to recover your life = game over, killing over a certain amount of enemies = game over and a lot of other variables (like no radar to locate yourself properly on the map). it made for a very challenging "one life only" experience, because so many things would force you to start all over again. it was fun.

[Sky Lynx]

I've never played hardcore seriously. I had some chars in act 3 or 4 normal but that's all. I play softcore because I like to build my character up with only time and patience in front of me, not some occasional death after hours of gameplay. I play softcore because when I'm playing late at night I often don't care what's going on screen and if I die it would be just a good reason to turn it all off. Those are my reasons against HC for myself.

Still I could imagine the charm of the HC, when you're not just rushing forward towards hell baal, but actually concentrating on your character, caring for him to be relatively secured. Every passed step is a real achievement, every killed boss is a double success, every meal's a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade! They LOVE the HC!

Seriously both way are legit.

[Yooq]

What I like about hardcore is the character's offensive way of standing in your character window, not like the neutral way as the softcore ones. It looks cooler. :whistling:
Also, the title names are cooler.

But the reason I play HC, is the thrill of always walking in the edge of life and death, as has been said here numerous times. :thumbup: