I hate the WD ('s design)

[LaZeR]

Well, after watching the new gameplay movies for the possibly 4th time, I got really angry.
The WD is probably the coolest char in D3. It's new, it's refreshing and it's damn right wicked. The whole concept is just awesome. This would easily the first char I'd play in D3
Unless..
His god damn crapy design. I'm sorry, but look at him in a party near the Barb, Wiz and Monk. He's so small I can hardly spot him. His spells are so unimpressive it's just pathic. Tiny frogs? Puny spiders? Small puppies? I want big bad *** skills. Horrify is probably the only cool skill in his arsenal- And it's amazing. This is the way to go.

It's seems Blizz is having difficulties with the WD but right now he just looks-
WEAK.

Anyone agrees? Disagrees?

[raveharu]

Well, after watching the new gameplay movies for the possibly 4th time, I got really angry.
The WD is probably the coolest char in D3. It's new, it's refreshing and it's damn right wicked. The whole concept is just awesome. This would easily the first char I'd play in D3
Unless..
His god damn crapy design. I'm sorry, but look at him in a party near the Barb, Wiz and Monk. He's so small I can hardly spot him. His spells are so unimpressive it's just pathic. Tiny frogs? Puny spiders? Small puppies? I want big bad *** skills. Horrify is probably the only cool skill in his arsenal- And it's amazing. This is the way to go.

It's seems Blizz is having difficulties with the WD but right now he just looks-
WEAK.

Anyone agrees? Disagrees?

The highlight of the new gameplay video was the Monk.

I wouldn't have noticed other classes except for the Wizard because they weren't really doing much. And it was meant to be so.

The WD's skills are not complete, and those are just basic Tier 1 skills. You can't expect him to summon some godly gigantic beast at level 1. He has the rumored "Summon Gargatuan" spell, which I think will be a high level spell, and should be massive, judging from the name.

Just be patient and don't jump to conclusions.

[z00t]

It's funny you should mention that because my brother - who doesn't follow the game very closely - said that in the big fights, the WD's frogs were the first things he noticed in that gameplay vid.

Appearance is relative. I feel that part of the WD's appeal is that he may look physically weak and frail (and I suppose he is), but he as all these wicked spells and voodoo power which belies his physical appearance.

[LaZeR]

The highlight of the new gameplay video was the Monk.

I wouldn't have noticed other classes except for the Wizard because they weren't really doing much. And it was meant to be so.

The WD's skills are not complete, and those are just basic Tier 1 skills. You can't expect him to summon some godly gigantic beast at level 1. He has the rumored "Summon Gargatuan" spell, which I think will be a high level spell, and should be massive, judging from the name.

Just be patient and don't jump to conclusions.

As always, I will write my thoughts in a list:

1. I've been patient. For about, say, a year since the WWI? And he's unimpressive as he was then. Actually less, since Corpse Spider and Frogs were added.
1. They can't all be Tier 1 skills. We've seen more than 5 skills and there ain't enough Tiers.
2. Even if they are low level Tier skills (which I doubt, Corpse Spider sounds like a high level one) it means nothing. Look at the Wiz. Her first Spectral Blade and Electercute are much more impressive than the WD's.
3. You know what, forget about it. When you imagine a corpse spitting up a spider, is that it? Or army of deadly frogs? No. However, Horrify, along with Soul Harvest, are beautifly designed, so there's no reason why his Summoning skills aren't.

[Knight_Wolf]

So you expect a voodoo witch doctor to have the body of a body builder or an athletic champion, that just won't make any sense, a witch doctor source of power isn't his physical form (which is always frail and very weak) but rather his ability to conjure black magic/voodoo and summon stuff (like zombies), they got the visual image just right, he is frail .. creepy .. and tribal, and also the skills all fit with the voodoo/jungle/witch doctor theme excellently.

The only thing that i'm concerned about visually (for both the WD and monk) is how they are going to make the higher level armor look on them cause it won't make any sense to see a witch doctor or a monk running around wearing a heavy armor of any sort (as far as i know and like in D1 and D2 each armor looks differernt from class to class)

[Mad Mantis]

So you expect a voodoo witch doctor to have the body of a body builder or an athletic champion, that just won't make any sense, a witch doctor source of power isn't his physical form (which is always frail and very weak) but rather his ability to conjure black magic/voodoo and summon stuff (like zombies), they got the visual image just right, he is frail .. creepy .. and tribal, and also the skills all fit with the voodoo/jungle/witch doctor theme excellently.

He was talking about the visual impact from the skills. And he is pretty right. Most of the skills we have seen so far aren't that impressive in the visual department. Soul Harvest and Horrify are the flashiest spells he has. Even those don't really have that must impact. Tiny frogs, locusts and bland mongrels just don't pack the same punch in the visual department as a disintegrate ray.

[Knight_Wolf]

He was talking about the visual impact from the skills. And he is pretty right. Most of the skills we have seen so far aren't that impressive in the visual department. Soul Harvest and Horrify are the flashiest spells he has. Even those don't really have that must impact. Tiny frogs, locusts and bland mongrels just don't pack the same punch in the visual department as a disintegrate ray.

Well, he was talking about both his posture/look and his spells.

As for spells, i think we have seen nothing of the late game WD skills, all the new skills they announced in Blizzcon09 were only text.

For example you can't simply judge the Barb as weak by looking at cleave or battle rage and saying "the barb skills are so unimpressive it's just pathic", if anyone bothered to look at the barb skill tree you would have found that his most impressive skills are all at the bottom of his skill trees or near it (namely .. Whirlwind, Seismic Slam, Furious Charge)

So calling the WD unimpressive after seeing a couple of his starter skills (Toads, Locust Swarm, Mongrel - primary summons) is really silly and jumping to conclusions about a class we haven't seen much of .. in short just mindless bashing.

Not to mention nitpicking too .. since Firebats and Zombie wall do look very impressive.

[Mad Mantis]

So calling the WD unimpressive after seeing a couple of his starter skills (Toads, Locust Swarm, Mongrel - primary summons) is really silly and jumping to conclusions about a class we haven't seen much of .. in short just mindless bashing.

We are just using what Blizz thought best to show us. If they would grant us a look at more skills maybe our opinions could be better formed. Seeing as how these are all the skills they have shown during his introduction Blizz apparently thought that this would be a good and flashy enough way to introduce the char. Why shouldn't we judge the WD based on what Blizz wants us to see?


Not to mention nitpicking too .. since Firebats and Zombie wall do look very impressive.

Agreed on the Firebats, disagree with the Zombie Wall. I like the concept but the visuals aren't that impressive. Just some purple dudes halfway out of the ground.

[Knight_Wolf]

Blizz apparently thought that this would be a good and flashy enough way to introduce the char.

Not necessarily, maybe they learned later that flashy skills are the best way to show off a class (like they did with the Wizard and Monk) or maybe all the WD late game skills are all still WIP but they didn't want to hold the class or delay its release until all/most skills have been done visually.


Why shouldn't we judge the WD based on what Blizz wants us to see?

Because we haven't seen much of him ... just a couple of skills, so why be rash and pass quick judgment before seeing what other things he has in store, specially knowing the game is no way near release or even Beta any time soon, i say let them bake his skills at their pace.

I like the concept but the visuals aren't that impressive. Just some purple dudes halfway out of the ground.


Concept is good indeed, but how else could it be done, either way it could be improved visually (i.e technically in terms of animation and textures) but i don't think a zombie wall will look any different than it is .. a bunch of zombies halfway out of the ground bashing and clinging to enemies.

[Mad Mantis]

Not necessarily, maybe they learned later that flashy skills are the best way to show off a class (like they did with the Wizard and Monk) or maybe all the WD late game skills are all still WIP but they didn't want to hold the class or delay its release until all/most skills have been done visually.

Barb also had flashy skills with a lot of noticeable bright effects. WD got the shaft.


Because we haven't seen much of him ... just a couple of skills, so why be rash and pass quick judgment before seeing what other things he has in store, specially knowing the game is no way near release or even Beta any time soon, i say let them bake his skills at their pace.

Passing judgment now doesn't mean that we can't adjust our position later. We can all hope that in the future he will be better. That doesn't give us any material to work with now. As it stands the WD NOW looks less than impressive. If future skill release change that, fantastic. We just want to make sure that Blizz understands that the WD, as shown so far, is quite lacking in the visual department and we'd like them to step it up a bit.


Concept is good indeed, but how else could it be done, either way it could be improved visually (i.e technically in terms of animation and textures) but i don't think a zombie wall will look any different than it is .. a bunch of zombies halfway out of the ground bashing and clinging to enemies.

Maybe I didn't word that properly. I don't have a problem with the concept of having zombies halfway out the ground. I have a problem with the design of the zombies. They don't look inspiring or frightening. Just purple.

[ancalagon]

Last year it was too early to talk about his skills, but a year later nothing has changed and Witch Doctor seems weak and visually unimpressive. I am not seeing any 'BAM' skills for the witch doctor Not necessarily weak skills, but unimpressive skills. A single fireball, a few skinny toads, 3 puny spiders, small zombie dogs (they even nerfed their setting on fire / poison), locusts .... Maybe the skill runes will turn his skills into proper visual feasts and screen shakers and make you go 'YEAH', we will see. The witch doctor evokes explosions of fire and poisonous fumes, undead minions swarming the place, and some seriously twisted curses.

[LaZeR]

That you Mantis for basically fightning my fights while I was away.

But, well, MM here and now ancalagon have said it all. Maybe it was too soon to judge the WD last year, but whole year has passed and no real improvement was seen in his design.
I will say again, there no way ALL of his Skills are Tier 1. We probably saw even some Tier 3 ones. And with nothing to compared to but the other chars- He's disappointing. You can say we haven't seen the last of him as much as you like, but we haven't seen much more than the Barb, Wiz and Monk and they certainly ARE more impressive.

[SEANBCOOL]

Honestly, it's too early to complain about how visually impressive the Witch Doctor's skills are. Blizzard has more or less said that the skills will be tweaked to be more vibrant and appealing -- I just don't think it's the area they're focused on right now. Rather, they are busy programming the gameplay. I'm sure better visuals will come later, toward the end of the game's development.

If you don't think the Witch Doctor's skills are cool enough, maybe he just isn't the character for you. I don't think he appears any weaker than the Necromncer did, and the Necromancer was badass.

Just to throw this out there, the Zombie Wall skill is really cool. Fire Wall hurts enemies when they touch it. Bone Wall blocks enemies. Zombie Wall does both, which equals domination.

[bhugy]

I agree with seanbcool that it's just too early to fairly judge the WD vs the barb or Wizard, because he obviously isn't as fully developed as the other two in terms of quantity of skills. The passing of a whole year doesn't matter much in this case, because we don't know a whole lot more about the WD than we did a year ago. I think we should wait until the WD is as far along as the other classes before we start judging him against them.

Am I the only who feels like Blizzard might be scratching their heads a bit as they work on the WD? The change from "Spider Statue" to "Corpse Spider" tells me that they're getting a better idea of who the WD is (but I just really hated the idea of "Spider Statue." He creates a big hunk of marble, and then spiders come out? "Corpse Spider" makes more sense, imo), but judging from how little we learned about him I get the feeling that work on him is slow because they don't really know what to do with him. Any one else?

[Mad Mantis]

Am I the only who feels like Blizzard might be scratching their heads a bit as they work on the WD?

No, I've mentioned it a few times as well. It seems to me that they really wanted to make something like the Necro, but didn't want the Necro. So they came up with a good concept and some spells after that they just ran out of steam. Not really knowing what to do next. I'm interested to see what direction they have taken with his skills.

[ancalagon]

http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/full-barbarian-skill-trees-and-stats1/

Why I am linking this? Because you can read the Barbarian only has 35 skills right now, down from 60 last year ...

If the WD follows suit, I'm really worried.

[Mad Mantis]

If the WD follows suit, I'm really worried.

What, you'll mean they'll cut the eleven down to six?

[Deckard Cain]

I completely agree with the OP on this one. I had watched the extended monk gameplay trailer and every scene with all 4 characters the WD was quite unimpressive.

I'm not against the WD either, but they need to give him something other than that fire bomb skill.

It definitely seems like blizzard is having a difficult time coming up with skill ideas for this guy. Why not just show another summon (assuming he has some besides the mongrels). And i'm not talking about the toads or spiders, but an actual summon like the mongrels.

[casadeERIC]

I say they make the WD into an undead Yuna and have him/her summon Ifrit.

Seriously though, as I was reading the posts of the thread I was going to tell everyone to chill out but scratch that. I get that the game isn't even close to beta and that many, many things will be added/changed including WD skills and visuals but after a year all we get is a few more skills? I want 35 skills. I want 60 skills. Even passives! Just give me something to work with, you know?

I love zombie wall. I hate fire bomb. The spider skill would be epic if it summoned a horde of zombies that threw up spiders that then exploded on impact. That would be awesome.

[DiabloCalibur]

The spider skill would be epic if it summoned a horde of zombies that threw up spiders that then exploded on impact

Insert Hydra rune (mutli-strike) here --> *spider skill*

Evidently from the information available to us now about the Witch Doctor's skills, said character is undergoing much tweaking and refinement, possibly showing up next year (or sooner, I pray) and hopefully blowing our rampant expectations sky-high. Regardless, I think it's safe to say we can rest assured ALL D3 characters are going to be badass; though I currently agree with the OP, I'm not worried at all.

Besides, Blizzard devs said so themselves, everytime a new character is created, it tends to one-up the previously created character in flashiness and all-around kickass(ness), forcing them to go back and rework those characters. I saw that trend somewhat when the Wizard was announced and now especially with the Monk.

[Zarniwoop]

I keep hoping that they'll say "just kidding, the WD was a placeholder for insert_cool_class_here".

[LaZeR]

I keep hoping that they'll say "just kidding, the WD was a placeholder for insert_cool_class_here".

Big *** LOL here.

I keep hoping that they'll say "just kidding, this is the WD last year. Here's the REAL Witch Doctor <insert awesome animation>"

[popenfresh]

I personally love the WD’s design. He’s original in the sense that he’s the exact opposite of what you’d expect a hero to look like. And that’s great I think. I’m so fed up with seeing the generic proud, noble, muscular, Arian, Caucasian 18-29 year old hero. I’m guessing most people want their hero to look like some ghey boy-band singer rather than an actual ominous and threatening looking warrior (Spawn anyone? He’s nothing like superman or batman and yet I think he’s the most badass super hero ever, despite him looking absolutely hideous). The WD throws everything that is sinister and evil about a Diablo game right into the face of the player. Nothing he is or does is something you’d expect from a fantasy hero. I there for think he's absolutely awesome.

I do however agree that the spells we’ve seen thus far are rather boring compared to the other heroes. I still love their concept but they’re just not impressive enough to be high tier Diablo spells. But seeing as there’s still a lot of development left to do I guess we’ll just have to wait and see how his skills and talents will work out in the future.

[Generic]

Yet all the female heros look like super models?

[popenfresh]

True, but I guess that’s just the modern gaming industry. :p I would rather have them look feral and creepy than sexy and seductive in a Diablo game.

[DiabloCalibur]

I've been holding out judgement on the Witch Doctor up until now, but I'm beggining to get concerned. Reading the new skill trees that Flux added to the wiki, they all seem incoherent and rather unexciting.

The WD idea is a GREAT idea on paper, but Blizzard seems to be having a hard time implementing that into gameplay. Sure he's the most original and unorthadox character so far, but that's no freakin excuse; I've read fanmade skill ideas that are far more interesting than the skills they've chosen. One could argue that these skills need to 'work' within the gameplay, which dictates which ones make the cut. If that's the case, then I say they made a sorry compromise for gameplay's sake, which is unfortunate because in this context, I truly believe they can have their cake and eat it too.

Disclaimer: This oppinion is not set in stone, as it won't be until i actually play the game for myself.

[loesr]

I've never been a fan of the WD. It doesn't fit into the lore. The Sin War Trilogy did not represent the jungle population as derivative ripoffs of 1800s British African Imperialism culture. I find frog tossing as a skill to be wimpy and insulting at the same time.

Honestly, I think Blizzard was bold and ventured outside of the box on this one, and they're seriously having a hard time fitting the WD to the game, and may be trying to fit the game to the WD instead. That's the danger with innovation. I do give them kudos for trying, but the game is based on romanticized western European mythology, culture, and fantasy. Against that context, it's hard to take throwing frogs and sicking Fido the dead poodle on your foes seriously.

[loesr]

That's not to say that you can't go to exotic locales, but the context of the game, playable classes, and main sources of conflict should follow some type of theme.

Sometimes it's the notes you don't play that make the music.

[lumpor]

I also think mongrels are a letdown. Come on, with the whole concept of the witch doctor, they culdn't think of anything else to summon?

Maybe it was a low level and should seem bland, but it's basically as basic as a summon an get. A small four-legged beast using his mouth to bite enemies, how original

[Mad Mantis]

I've read fanmade skill ideas that are far more interesting than the skills they've chosen. One could argue that these skills need to 'work' within the gameplay, which dictates which ones make the cut.

What surprises me most about the skills he has is the complete redundancy we see in his skills. How many nuke spells do you really need in a single character? If they all would do something vastly different then it might be justifiable, but they all look the same. Then there are the ton of passives that increase the damage of your spells. Seems rather 1-dimensional to me.

[NotaBot]

its as if they are trying to shoe horn a character next to where the necro should be, they didnt want to bring the necro back (a debatable decision) yet wont tread on his territory skills and mechanics wise just in case the inevitable expansion brings him out of retirement.

thematically i kinda like the flavor but implementation looks shakey at best, with the release of the latest build skill tree it looks downright average even compared to the monk who has what 8 ? skills to show off.

the mongrels .....not sold yet... where are the JuJu Zombies? the panther spirits? giant black anacondas? wheres the voodoo doll and shrunken heads ? wheres the weird potions/potion finding skills, poison passives , the fetish (mystical voodoo items not the creature) , bad luck hexes that cause more chance to be critically hit

[Knight_Wolf]

Why is everyone picking on poor zombie dogs, they are nothing more than the equivalent of an Arcane Missile .. is there anything cool or groundbreaking about Arcane Missiles .. NO ... so why not wait and see what the other high level summons look like before bashing low level skills of the WD (Fetish Army, Gargantuan, Zombie Charger, Pit of Fire)

Besides, it has already been confirmed by Jay, the Wizard was the class that should have been shown on the first reveal of D3 not the WD, the wizard was way ahead in development than the WD but the higher ups decided it is better to show the WD early for some reason .. so it's way too early to make any meaningful judgment on the WD because simply he is way behind in development and is incomplete like the Monk (and unlike the Barb and Wizard) ... i also smell some sore Necro fans around too XD

[popenfresh]

What people are also forgetting is that runes were not implemented in the blizzcon build of 2009. It has been repeated numerous times that runes are a fundamental part of d3. Sure, skull of flame might look like a boring fire ball but imagine a high lvl hydra rune making your skull bounce around half the screen. Or a lethality rune creating huge blazing pits of fire. It’s obvious that the skills we’ve seen thus far are only tier 1, 2 and 3. So I can only imagine what tier 4 and 5 skills with powerful runes will look like… ^.^

[mandaumn]

I really like the WDs design, i just think some of his skills are unimpressive. Take Plague of Toads, for instance. If only the damn frogs fell out from the skyes similarly to the Blizzard spell and made a pool of venom... that would be su-weet. Give him something like Death & Decay from Warcrat 2s Death Knight, then add some Voodoo dust spell that he blows and the clowd takes the form of angry spirits that rush to his targets, doing damage to whatever stands in their path. Let him drop some seeds at his feet, growing an instant herb/wooden armor or, better, let him summon a mighty tornado full of swirling angry spirits, damaging everything in a given radius. I do think he is the coolest of characters, but sadly, we haven't yet seen something that truly matches his potential. I mean, Blizzard is obviously having some trouble perfecting the WD... hoepfully they'll deliver something awesome.

[Mad Mantis]

Why is everyone picking on poor zombie dogs

Just for the record, I have no problem with Zombie Dogs per se. They do fine as an introductory minion. No need for each skill to be groundbreaking. I just believe that Blizz could have made their models a bit more interesting to look at. Right now they look uninteresting and purple.


so it's way too early to make any meaningful judgment on the WD because simply he is way behind in development and is incomplete like the Monk (and unlike the Barb and Wizard) ... i also smell some sore Necro fans around too XD

Nice to see them admit that they screwed the pooch when it comes to marketing the WD. His introduction and subsequent handling was substandard and did nothing to boost his standing with the fans.

Although the WD and Monk are incomplete there is a large difference between the two. With the Monk there is a feel for the class. Even with his puny amount of spells it is immediately clear what direction they are going for. Also he already looks powerful and visually impressive. He may be incomplete but it is not because he is lacking vision, he is just in need of some more skills.

The WD on the other hand has an entire skill tree and still feels unfinished, incomplete and without direction. There is nothing really visually impressive about the character. Even with his entire skill tree known it looks like Blizz still has no idea what to do with the char. What role he is supposed to fill. his skill design shows the same problem. There is no coherent whole. He has some summons, some direct damage skills, an utility skill or two and some passives that deal with orbs, stats and spell power. The other chars already have pretty clear builds while the WD is still stuck with his "a little bit of everything" build.

Yes, this may all change in further iterations of the char, but I must say that after more than a year I find it disturbing that the WD is still so underdeveloped. I didn't really think about it, but I must say that NotaBot is on to something here. It does seem like they are desperately trying to avoid encroaching in Necro territory (to bring him back at a later date) and thus willfully hindering the development of the WD.


So I can only imagine what tier 4 and 5 skills with powerful runes will look like… ^.^

All chars suffer from a lack of skill runes. Everyone except the WD manages to look visually impressive without these runes. Why is it that the WD lags behind so much?

As for the higher level skills. We have Wall of Zombies, which is Tier V and Mass Confusion, which is Tier VI. Of these only Mass Confusion looks interesting because the huge Voodoo Mask is done very well. A lot of his higher level skills are passives or utility spells. I don't see those suddenly becoming very impressive.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't dislike the WD. I just wish Blizz would spend the time to make him a complete char. Right now he manages to come across as a char made by "wouldn't it be cool if..." and "damn, we need some more spells" design.

[z00t]

Personally, I find that the Zombie Dogs' design is actually very intriguing. I really like how it's not a literal zombie dog but...well, a mongrel - a twisted fusion of human and canine.

It has funny hands and feet, but the structure of its body from the neck down is as if a deformed human is walking on all fours, and it has the head of a dog-like creature. I found the name 'Mongrel' to be highly evocative and creepy at the same time, and I kinda wish they kept it.

For what it's worth, I do think that the Witch Doctor's spells look visually impressive and that what I've seen so far holds its own with the likes of the other classes. I don't feel that the lack of literal 'flashiness' necessarily mitigates how impressive it looks, and I'm surprised that the visuals of his spells have drawn as much criticism as they have.

[popenfresh]

Personally, I find that the Zombie Dogs' design is actually very intriguing. I really like how it's not a literal zombie dog but...well, a mongrel - a twisted fusion of human and canine.

It has funny hands and feet, but the structure of its body from the neck down is as if a deformed human is walking on all fours, and it has the head of a dog-like creature. I found the name 'Mongrel' to be highly evocative and creepy at the same time, and I kinda wish they kept it.

For what it's worth, I do think that the Witch Doctor's spells look visually impressive and that what I've seen so far holds its own with the likes of the other classes. I don't feel that the lack of literal 'flashiness' necessarily mitigates how impressive it looks, and I'm surprised that the visuals of his spells have drawn as much criticism as they have.

QTF

You’re completely right about the name. mongrel sounded infinitely better than zombie dog. The new name just sounds so childish in my opinion.

As for the skills, I agree that the lack of “flashy” effects fits the WD's concept. I think the way the spells looks now give the WD a more serious nature than the other classes (I know a lot of you would disagree with me on that one but that’s just the way I feel about it). I do agree with Mad Mantis about the mana skills though. If they would cut half of the mana saving skills and replace them with more offensive or passive damage skills the WD would be perfectly fine.