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View Full Version : How Berserk skill (or similar) should be. An interesting skill suggestion.


sirBeReN
14-08-2009, 22:13
First of all, i want to clearly state that I haven't read anything similar to what you are going to read here. If things I will state have already been stated, sorry, but I didn't knew it. All these, in my mind were original, I didn't intented to copy anyone. :thumbup:

I haven't completed the idea, but would like to share it with you, maybe you can take it to a new level. Note that this is only an idea, numbers provided could be really irrelevant, and many things I suggest or not, could be out/in.
Also, this is not necessarily the "Berserk" skill, it could be anything similar, with different name. It's just a rough suggestion.



Main Concern
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What I fount as lacking in D2, and many video games today generally, is the real thrill a fight has some moments. You rarelly get really thrilled. Don't take me wrong, the enjoyment is there often. I'm talking about thrill. A very very bad skill in D2, either design-wise or name-wise (you pick whatever you like), was the Barbarian Berserk.

If we look closely to what Berserk actually was in history, it is a very good oppotrunity (wasted in D2 for example), to give a great thrill moment to the player. I know there is fury now in Barbarian, a cool addition as it seems so far, but this could be even better.


Basic Concept
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So Berserk should give you the feeling that although you are already fighting hard in a situation, you suddenly, for some reason (bad odds, too hurted, or something) go Berserkgang, and become a real beast that cannot recognize what is in front of him, it just cuts down everything in it's past. On the other hand, a berserker, after returning to normal, would have 1, 2 or even more days of mental "problem", loosing his half strength or more for this amount of time.

This is what happened, or what is supposed to have happened in Norse history. Just a reference: Scroll down to the "Part II: Going Berserk --- a Description of the Berserkergang" here http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/berserke.shtml


How it would be triggered
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Actually, now that I think about it, this could be a passive skill! Much much better. Don't be hasty, I will explain myself.
It should be trigered in certain, rare circumstances only. If you dont invest any point in it, then it will never be triggered. That is for those who really dislike the negatives it gives, and don't want to trade them off with the positives (maybe some new or hardcore players).
The conditions under which the skill is triggered are something I haven't thought of clearly. Maybe when you receive a critical hit, or 2 critical hits simultaneously from the monsters (dunno if this happens ever), or generally receive a really big amount of damage. Then there is a small chance you get into this frenzy psychology. Probably, you can add to this a couple more rules: already running low in health, or being badly surrounded by monsters.

Anyway, you get the picture: when things go really dangerous for Barbarian, give him a small chance to "activate" the skill.

Berserk mode could last a few seconds, or up to 1-2 minutes or something, while the dull mode could last half, equal or double that time. Duration times can ofc change as the skill level changes.


Actual Behaviour
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Still occurs much talking and argument in my own mind here, hehe :banghead:
What I think would be cool:
When in berserk,
+ your weapons' damage and attack rate increases ALOT,
+ you slightly loose control of your character ($$$: see at the end for details),
+ you loose health uncontrollably (maybe only till a certain point over zero, lets say 15-20% of max health, to ensure survivability),
+ you get an increased chance of landing a critical hit,
+ Barb attacks in a similar to whirlwind way, or preferably to the D2 frenzy barb style, or something crazy like this stuff,
+ you hurt friend and foes nonetheless, whoever is in your path
+ your weapons loose extremely fast their durability (is durability back in D3? I have read about this but don't really remember.. oops!:scratchchin:)
+ add more? :ponder:

After a predetermined (relatively small) period of time, things turn against you. You enter a dull, feeble condition. You suffer these:
- you become "lazy", loosing some walk/run speed, and/or some attack/defense rating (I'd greatly prefer defense rating though)
- you loose all the fury you currently had when entered berserk mode, and the ability to build it up while in feeble mode
- you loose all the money the character was carrying on him (dropped down carelessly, while doing the crazy maneuvers)
- more to come? :coffee:


Extra Notes
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* Adding points to the skill, could improve it in various ways. Improving the good effects (damage, kill ratio, etc). Or changing the max amount of life he will have when finishing the berserk mode. Many similar things could happen.
* Going on higher clevels, could increase the chance or make conditions that lead into Berserk more easily to occur. But only a little, so that even around 100 clvl, you can rarely go berserk (15?-30? times in the whole period from starting to finishing the game in hell mode)
* This has to be a thrilling skill, as much as it is possible (within the limitations of an isometric game). Both in looks and feeling.
* The feeling of slightly loosing control of the character is a crucial point.
* Make it extreme and of unmatched brutality, but with some nasty effects afterwards
* Another crucial point, is to (as much as possible) make it very hard for a player to predict when he is going berserk or not. I mean, the conditions under which the passive skill turns active, should be complicated, so that you can't say "I'll do this and that, and voila, I now get a 5% chance of goin berserk". I insist on this. Low chances is a good think, but requiring many and complex conditions, as they are described or even more, is very important. This should be a rare and unpredictable skill.
I know that you think: "Why waste my skill points in something that I can't trigger at will, and occurs very rarely?"
To this argument, I will reply this:
1. This skill could benefit from prefixes/suffixes on weapons, and could have no need to actually put points in. Only 1 point to start. Then some items should give nice bonuses +x to skill level (+1 to +3 for normal, +5 to +15 on nightmare, +15 to +25 on hell class items) so you actually don't need investing points in it.
2. Balancing can ruin or make this skill great fun and thrill. The rate at which it triggers, through testing could become a nice one, that helps the player profit from it.
3. (Ignoring the item bonus mentioned in No.1) There could be a "limiting system", like: At clvl =< 30 only 1 point is allowed, at 31< clvl <69, another point, and at 70< clvl < 100 another 2 points allowed only. So this could be a 4 points total skill, so that you don't need to waste much points into it, but also don't need to do so, 4 skills will be enough to benefit from this skill. Yet you have to wait till, lets say, clvl 71 for maxing it out.
4. To put it simply, there are tenths of ways to make this skill beneficial and a needed one. Maybe even increasing the rate at which it happens. But still the conditions should be somewhat unpredictable. Balancing is always the key word.
5. I don't want a silly Barb who does what he wants, and ignores me and dives me mad. I know noone wants that. So don't jump to my idea seeing only negative points here. With proper tweaking and balancing, this could be very thrilling and funny.



Tell me what you think about my idea. :wave:





$$$
Details on how you could loose control over character
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There maybe other ways, but I have only thought of 2 so far. These could be used simultaneously, or the one after the other, or constantly only one of them.
1. Character not obeying to movement.You click straight forward, and he goes near that point but not exactly there, maybe a little left or further forward.
2. The character could swing the weapons on his own at times. Say, you face 5 monsters, you click him to attack 3 of them and while you want him to attack the forth, you click the forth but he attacks the fifth on his own!
3. A third one I just thought of. When the barb attacks in frenzy, there is a strong chance he ignores the currently active skill, and pick one from the other known ones, (not all ofc, but some of them that could work well with this). He could act cleverly, choosing only those with high slevel, or some predetermined strong aggresive skills that the player has already activated.



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ps> oops, I fell into berserk mode while writing this! It all started as a 4-5 lines statement, and finally turned out to be a big big post... seems I need some rest now, I sense the feeble mode coming :funnyabove:
ps2> I would like to say that I'd like to see great potential coming out of D3. I really believe, ideas like this are much viable, and this style of D3 has such potential, that is shame to waste the whole game with just click-fest fights as D2 was (mostly). Add some spice to the drama, mama-Blizzard :yes:

sirBeReN
15-08-2009, 19:40
Hm... I wander, is this that bad as an idea, or it is too big for all you to read? :(

vknez
18-08-2009, 16:39
to much text to read...

Nimbostratus
18-08-2009, 22:49
Yeah, posts in this forum really need a dose of "get to the point already." I've considered making a joke thread of a "Tyeldiar" (tl;dr) character.


The main problem with basically all melee skills in D2 was that there's never any thrill. It's just "tape down your attack button and use a potion every so often." You can't just look at somebody playing and tell how good they are.

Typoko
19-08-2009, 01:15
Hi!

First of all this wouldn't be greater than fury is. This is just one passive skill. Get a grip...

Biggest issue would be balancing. If this berserk would increase alot of your dps it would have to have great disadvantages. Problem is that you can wait out the disadvantage partand then get it going again when it's off. This leads to waiting and unbalanced ability. As good as you think it is you need to cut down half of the post to make a point and an idea to balance it. Waiting for random stuff to happen is really irritating also. I got my share of that with retri pala pretbc when you only had 1 active skill.

sirBeReN
27-08-2009, 18:04
Thnx for the replies guys, but if you read what I wrote, I am not talking about a really passive skill there. Anyway. :`(

Lazzie
27-08-2009, 22:00
So, in this Barbarian skill, you would lose durability more quickly, lose health, create the possibility of friendly fire, lose all of your money, partially lose control of your character, AND enter a feeble state afterward where you lose speed and Fury?

No. Terrible idea. In an action RPG like Diablo III losing control of one's character on purpose is one of the worst ideas possible. That, plus all of those other disadvantages, in a single ability would make the game less fun.

Cormac McArt
28-08-2009, 00:03
So, in this Barbarian skill, you would lose durability more quickly, lose health, create the possibility of friendly fire, lose all of your money, partially lose control of your character, AND enter a feeble state afterward where you lose speed and Fury?

No. Terrible idea. In an action RPG like Diablo III losing control of one's character on purpose is one of the worst ideas possible. That, plus all of those other disadvantages, in a single ability would make the game less fun.
Aha.
Just be content with Increasing the Damage , AS and AR over the Life Loss.

sirBeReN
28-08-2009, 11:45
So, in this Barbarian skill, you would lose durability more quickly, lose health, create the possibility of friendly fire, lose all of your money, partially lose control of your character, AND enter a feeble state afterward where you lose speed and Fury?

No. Terrible idea. In an action RPG like Diablo III losing control of one's character on purpose is one of the worst ideas possible. That, plus all of those other disadvantages, in a single ability would make the game less fun.

I didn't stated any numbers mate. And I didn't say everything I suggested should be in. I was just suggesting. You can cut some things off, add in something else.
Through balancing, you can make this beneficial. And the loss of control should be minimal, ofc. If it is too bad, you can take it out anytime.
All these you stated, could be traded off for an all-killing fighting machine.

Ok, maybe the most problematic thing is that you can't forsee it coming. This probably should be out after all, it could create big problem and frustration.

Lazzie
28-08-2009, 15:21
Well, I understand, I think, but I still don't like it. No amount of damage is worth all of those drawbacks for a single skill, and I am not a fan of deliberately losing control of one's character in an action RPG like Diablo where you only control a single character.

Cormac McArt
28-08-2009, 15:27
Actually @sitBeReN you complicated it way too much.

What Berserkergang is - when in Battle - when you see the Bloodshed and hear the Clash of Weapons especially when it's your Blood and your Clash - to Go in Frenzy - Swinging your Weapons Wildly and Tirelessly with New-Found Strength!

So , in D2-D3 terms there already two Skills that resemble that State - Berserk - in which you Lose your Defense and Inflict Magic Damage (which is unnatural one and should be removed IMO) and Frenzy - in which you Increase your Attack Speed and Movement Speed with every Successful Hit (which is more realistic to Berserkergang IMO especially that it Requires Dual Wield)!

So - Frenzy is the Berserkergang - a present D2LoD Barbarian Melee Attack Skill and I am really satisfied with that - nothing to expect from the stupid D3!

sirBeReN
28-08-2009, 20:37
I'm well aware of these skills Cormac. Problem is what said: You are supposedly in a berserk mode, yet you just do pretty much the same thing point-click-kill-takePotion-point-click-kill. After doing it 1000 times, it becomes boring. No skills required. I remember only a few skills that needed a bit of caution in D2.

I don't expect D3 to be tedious and realistic as Severance:Blade of Darkness was. But, well, clicking and killing with no real skill is somewhat lacking, when you are supposed to be in Berserkergang.
Anyway, seems I have to live with this... *throws idea out of the window*

Cormac McArt
29-08-2009, 17:47
Well , @sirBeReN , I definitely agree on that.

In D2LoD Fighting is rather Automatized. Perhaps an argument for that is the Hero is more proficient than the brainless Monsters , though it's rather because it's more simple both for the game and for the gamer.

It is especially Skill-free for the Meleers - you click the Monster and the Hero approaches it and Starts Hitting it.
For Rangers it is different since the Monster is likely to move anywhere while the Projectile "travels" - so it takes Anticipation there , though this can be skipped by Telestomp.

This Automatization can be completely Removed with the Removal of Namelock.
This is very Problematic though.
To neutralize this Nerf this Major Change has to be made:

Separating the Moving and Fighting functions from one another. - So far - they are connected - you Move with Mouse Clicking unless you Click on an Enemy or this Enemy gets in your way. Separation can be done with Mouse Clicking being responsible for the Moving only and the Fighting to be assigned to Keyboard Key/s. Or the contrary model (like in 1PAs and 3PAs).

Thus you wont be able to Namelock - therefore Easy Target an Enemy but you will have to get in Range and then start Swinging. Which requires slightly more Skills and is better.

A further Elaboration would be when Movement is by W,S,A,D Keys and Fighting is by Mouse Buttons and Character Rotation can be done by Moving the Mouse (like in Max Payne) and then you can Hit onto an Enemy only when you're Facing them!
Actually by this way Retreat-Fighting will be possible since when you Hold S the Character will still be Facing the Enemy rather than turning their Back and moving!

When will this happen in Diablo/Sanctuary series!? ...

Nimbostratus
29-08-2009, 18:24
Cormac McArt: I'm normally against drastic control scheme changes, but your idea sounds pretty cool. It would greatly help action-ify the game instead of keeping the focus on "my numbers beat your numbers."

sirBeReN
29-08-2009, 19:56
I believe there is much more potential in D3 in this direction (more thrill/skill vs endless clicking), but what you suggest sounds very interesting. I have never thought of such a thing. I'd like to test it sooner or later... *searches D2 discs*