Crazy idea - no skill ranks?

[Runestar]

Let me first preempt any possible flames by stating that I do not play WoW, nor do I know anything about its mechanics, so any similarities my proposal may share with WoW is purely coincidental. I do admit that it was partly inspired by the power selection system for dnd 4e though. So yeah, feel free to flame away if you detest that system. :yes:

Currently, one beef I have with skill ranks and using points to purchase new skills is that players will usually do one of two things: either they max out that skill all the way (+synergies if appropriate), or just put 1 point in it (it is either a prereq, or the player relies on skill-boosting gear to pump it to the desired effect). Not really much of a choice, IMO. This tends to lead to characters with 1-2 pumped out skills (which they will probably spam all the way), the rest remain unused.

So this got me thinking - what if we no longer had to pump skills? We either know a skill or we do not. We would be presented with a list of spells to select from at each lv, and would be able to choose 1 (or respec an existing skill). Upgraded versions of lower lv spells would be available as well, if you are comfortable with using them.

For example, at 1st lv, my wizard could choose to know 1 of a variety of 1st lv damage spells, including magic missile, spectral blade and whatever other spells you wish to see included (this is purely a thought exercise anyways). At say, 4th lv, you could learn another damage spell. Utility/support/defensive spells may be staggerd at other lvs. But ideally, you got to choose something new every lv, to give you something to look forward to every lv. Skills could be upgraded. Say I learn firebolt at 1st lv. This could be swapped out with firebolt2.0 at lv3, firebolt3.0 at lv5, fireball at lv7, scaling all the way as our wizard lvs. Or you could opt to learn another spell of roughly equal power in place of it, if you are sick of tossing balls of flame around.

The number of spells you know would increase until a certain threshold (say, 1 at 1st lv, +1 spell known every 10 lvs?). Again, this number is not set in stone (some might prefer the number of spells known to increase at a faster rate at lower lvs, then slow down at higher lvs). They would be cast using mana of course. Mode of presentation - I am currently toying around with the skillbar from Nox (binded to the a-h keys, can be cast at the tap of the appropriate key).

So a lv40 wizard might know 5 different spells. But of course, as she lvs, she can upgrade her existing repertoire of spells known. And with respeccing currently planned, the list wouldn't be static anyways. Alternatively, we may have a limited ability to replace our selection of spells known when we lv.

One advantage of this is that while she might know fewer spells compared to a d2 sorc, all the spells she knows would be equally viable against the foes she faces at that time (because their lv would be around her lv). A D2 lv90 sorc might know ice bolt and firebolt, but face it, these skills will never get used, not when superior alternatives like fireball or frozen orb exist.

Okay, that ends my long rant for today. Hope you have the patience to read this lengthy diatribe, an let the discussion begin. :jig:

[Typoko]

Hi!

This system makes no sense. Instead of pumping points on skills you are limited when you can put the points in. If you are putting 1 point to frost bolt in levels 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, 32, 55, 66, 77, 99 and TADAA you have used up 10 points. In current system you just could put the ten points at level 11 and be done whit it.

Also to keep spells viable all to the end from the start, spells need to improve alot. So level 1 frost bolt would be alot worse than frost bolt rank 8. This means that when you have the ability to pick frost bolt 8 you must pick it as it improves your damage and most likely picking rank 1 fireball at that time would be compleatly stupid. What this means you have to pick the main spells you want and pick points on them every time it's possible. Let's say skills would improve every 8 levels. This would lead players getting 8 skills in total as they can't take anything else as the other skills would be rank 1 and they have rank 2 that they can take. Eaven if not every spell upgrades at 8 levels, you might get few points to sped here and there, but rank 4 fireball would most likely be compleatly useless when you have rank 10 ice bolt.

In the end this would work just like WoW skill/talent system works. You get every skill, but the talents (in this threads system points that you get every level) say what you use.

I don't like this at all. It sets you on path of the skills from under level 10 or leaves with you with the skills you use and bunch of skills that really don't have any meaning. Most likely it would tone down variety tragically, as you must keep up with the skills that are getting in higher level. To have enough variety in this kind of system requires insane amount of different skills.

In the end alot better and clearer systems is what they are using now. You put points to a skill for it to be better. For it to do well in later levels you get to put points into a skill that buffs the spell you got at level 1.

PS: the whole system is a bit unclear. Like example 10 first levels of skills that you could coose for the wizard for example would be nice to see.

[theeliminator]

You must not have got the memo. D3 is not like D2, you can't spend 20 skill points in one skill. You can spend a max of 5. (as of now) The system already in the game will get you more than 5 active skills. (most likely it will get you somewhere between 7-10)

Your system would be more like wow, if you wanted a true D&D system, then say spells get more powerful as you go up in lvl on their own without you doing anything. Like Fireball from D&D starts off as 4D6 damage and every lvl over 6th it goes up by 1D6 till a max of 10. But at that rate you might as well make a D&D game because it’s not Diablo.

PS: D&D 4th e is just a wow wantabe play a real mans D&D play 2nd or 3rd

[SlechtWeerBeer]

You must not have got the memo. D3 is not like D2, you can't spend 20 skill points in one skill. You can spend a max of 5. (as of now) The system already in the game will get you more than 5 active skills. (most likely it will get you somewhere between 7-10)

Your system would be more like wow, if you wanted a true D&D system, then say spells get more powerful as you go up in lvl on their own without you doing anything. Like Fireball from D&D starts off as 4D6 damage and every lvl over 6th it goes up by 1D6 till a max of 10. But at that rate you might as well make a D&D game because it’s not Diablo.

PS: D&D 4th e is just a wow wantabe play a real mans D&D play 2nd or 3rd

A wan tabe, huh (that's how I read it at first; then figured you meant wannabe).

Anyhow, back on topic: Bashiok stated on 28th of July that there's a way to improve a "key skill"'s cap to 10 and even 15. How many skills you can increase of course remains a question unanswered, and how it'd be done too.

[theeliminator]

A wan tabe, huh (that's how I read it at first; then figured you meant wannabe).

Anyhow, back on topic: Bashiok stated on 28th of July that there's a way to improve a "key skill"'s cap to 10 and even 15. How many skills you can increase of course remains a question unanswered, and how it'd be done too.

I think the 10 and 15 skill caps are for when you go from normal(5), to hell(10), to Nightmare (15)

[SlechtWeerBeer]

I think the 10 and 15 skill caps are for when you go from normal(5), to hell(10), to Nightmare (15)

It's NM -> Hell :)

Anyhow, how would that work? You beat Diablo and get a pop up that says "Choose X skills to increase the skill cap of."?

[jacobgold]

It's NM -> Hell :)

Anyhow, how would that work? You beat Diablo and get a pop up that says "Choose X skills to increase the skill cap of."?

There would probably be a global max skill (5/10/15) if it were difficulty level based.

Limiting which skill caps you could raise would unnecessarily complicate a respecialization system, which is in the game.

Assuming the average character would get 90 skill points, thats a max of 6 skills at 15 if there are no trash skills in the mix. That probably wont happen, so I figure than any one character could have 4 skills at max level and other skills below max.

If someone wanted to have more or less max level skills to raise their lower level ones, I don't see any reason to stop them from doing that.

[SlechtWeerBeer]

There would probably be a global max skill (5/10/15) if it were difficulty level based.

Which is not the train of thought the D3 team has.
Besides, might as well just unlock all 15 levels in Normal to not complicate matters.


Limiting which skill caps you could raise would unnecessarily complicate a respecialization system, which is in the game.

Imo, the whole mechanic is unnecessarily complicating the game.


Assuming the average character would get 90 skill points, thats a max of 6 skills at 15 if there are no trash skills in the mix. That probably wont happen, so I figure than any one character could have 4 skills at max level and other skills below max.

If someone wanted to have more or less max level skills to raise their lower level ones, I don't see any reason to stop them from doing that.

90 skill points is quite a bunch less than what we have in D2 (98 from leveling, 3 Dens, 3 Izzy's), and there's more skills in D3. I have a feeling we'll get more than that, despite the lower skillcap :P

I think you'll at some point in the game get a 'raise level cap' option/point (a second number on the skill screen perhaps?) a number of times, each point can increase the cap by 5, max 15, for a skill. Could be a quest reward, or rewarded for random encounters, uberdungeons, cube recipes that require a reward drop from some high level area..

[theeliminator]

It's NM -> Hell :)


yeah must of been thinking in DOOM terms.


Which is not the train of thought the D3 team has.
Besides, might as well just unlock all 15 levels in Normal to not complicate matters.

I would think they wouldn't want to unlock all 15 lvls in normal for game balance issues. I don't understand how letting you spend more skill points in a skill in harder difficulties would "complicate matters"

[Telzen]

Its pretty obvious from the wording that you pick which skills get to go above 5. The purpose isn't to limit high level skills early in the game but to single out the main skills you want to raise and leave your supporting skills at the normal cap of 5.