Best Character for Crowd Control?

[CCCenturion]

Some of us got a little off-topic in a thread (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=733635) about best gloves for a Berserker, and somehow ended up debating which character is best for crowd control: Necromancer, Assassin, or Barbarian. I argued on the Barbarian side of the debate, although there were lots of good posts on each side.

It didn't make sense to discuss crowd control in a thread about gloves for a Zerker, so I'm moving the debate over here. Here's my argument for Barbs over Necros or Sins:


Necros and Assassins are great at crowd control. But I'm with CDM on this; Barbs are even better still. I used to think Necros could crowd control better than anyone else, then I learned how to use my Warcries and Leap effectively.

Necros can neutralize enemies using Dim Vision, which is very helpful. Bone Walls and Bone Prisons are great for keeping enemies away, but they don't stay up long unless you're a Bonemancer. Decrepify is great for slowing enemies down.

Other Necro skills sound good for crowd control, but they aren't as effective as they sound. Confuse and Attract will turn monsters on each other, but in Hell difficulty monsters regenerate life faster than they deal damage to each other, so it's best to stick with Dim Vision. Terror is another crowd control skill, but Howl is vastly superior.

Assassins basically have three crowd control skills: Psychic Hammer (weak), Mind Blast (great skill), and Cloak of Shadows (good skill). Mind Blast is arguably a better skill than Warcry, since it has more range. Cloak of Shadows is like Dim Vision and Battlecry mixed together so it's pretty cool too. So basically, Assassins have two good skills for neutralizing enemies.

Barbarians have a much more diverse set of tools for crowd control, which is why I say they come out on top. They can neutralize enemies with Warcry and Howl. They can set up safe zones with Grim Ward, which is a fantastic skill that most people never even try. They can use Leap to knock enemies back and stun them briefly, which is an extremely potent skill to use in combination with others. And Taunt is so useful it's almost like cheating. That's a total of five crowd control skills with different functions, giving the Barbarian a great variety of ways to alter the enemies' AI, which after all is the main purpose of crowd control to begin with.

So to sum it up, Necros and Sins have some great crowd control tools, but nobody can control crowds in as many different ways as the Barbarian.

[Shanksie1337]

Zon > Barb

LF or Strafe/MS, a dead crowd is pretty much under control :D.

[DcDrachma]

Assasins do have their traps as well, which put the bastards in hit recovery =)

I always use DS on my kickers =)

[NASE]

Count in the possibility to freeze them all with freeze arrow, the best tank in the game (valkery) and to use decriptify through the use of wrath.

zons ftw.

[edit]
And slow missiles too.

[CCCenturion]

I think what really could kill this debate is the inability to set an agreed-upon definition of crowd control.

I would say crowd control skills come in several levels. There are skills that flat out neutralize the crowds by blinding them, stunning them, or causing them to flee in terror. Other skills either slow the enemy or put them into hit recovery. Some skills turn enemies on each other (although late in the game, most monsters regenerate health faster than they can deal damage to each other). There are also skills that create "safe zones" (Bone Wall, Grim Ward).

Then there are minion skills of Necros, Druids, Sins, and Zons. Are tanks and meat shields considered crowd control? Personally, I'd say no. Minions increase the size of your party, but you're not controlling the crowd.

When I hear the words crowd control, I see a character moving enemies away, drawing them near, shutting them down; basically controlling the enemies almost as if you're playing Starcraft with them. And Barbarians have the skills to do that in a greater variety of ways than other characters, which is why I put them on top.



Killing enemies =/= crowd control.

Of course, killing masses of enemies quickly is a more effective way to, well, kill enemies, but your skills need to involve some sort of strategy and tactics to be considered crowd control.

[lionheartthebrave]

Anyone with a Delirium on a Act1/2/5 mercenary has good crowd control

For character class, I'd pick Necromancer, a high level Dim Vision blinds beyond the screen iirc

[purplelocust]

It depends upon what playstyle you have in mind- reckless or careful. To my mind, for careful play, the necro and barb excel. Crowd control isn't so much just killing everything in sight quickly, it's more about managing big crowds safely and not being threatened even in high player count settings.

Barb: Howl is great for both careful and reckless play (run through an area, howling instead of getting swarmed) and Taunt neutralizes ranged attackers, shamans, heirophants, blood lords, and so on.

Necro: For careful play, between Dim Vision, Attract and Confuse, a necro can take the danger out of many many mobs. Many people don't appreciate Confuse but those who have played with a Delirium merc realize how overpowered it is in terms of crowd control. Delirium (or Confuse) can make a lot of otherwise very challenging builds quite playable.

Edit: CCCenturion made an excellent point whilst I was composing my reply!

[Shanksie1337]

I was just stiring :p, but on a serious note i'd much prefer to spend my time killing them as opposed to "controlling them", I don't really do subtle tho.

[sirpoopsalot]

After Alkithoe (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=483495) and Anna (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=480035), I'd have to say the amazon gets my vote.

[Sass]

PH isn't a CC skill. DTail with freeze would work well (Cold maiden).

They also have DS and phoenix (like a sorc's FO in terms of CC).

If stunned, WoF is amazing at keeping it.

[mephiztophelez]

nec's and 'sins both have great crowd control potential.

necs: Dim Vision, Confuse and Attract can all be used for various effects.

sins: Cloak Of Shadows (essentially Dim Vision) and Mind Blast (essentially "attract") are both awesome when used correctly.

a pally has Conversion, which can be a dicey affair, but can also make hell-solo possible for untwinked builds.

barbs have Leap which is awesome and Warcry which is less awesome.

[Sass]

In terms of control, I think CE kinda tops in general. >> It tends to clear entire screens and beyond quite well.

And by control, it is more just blind / incapacitate the mobs or deal with them?

[crawlingdeadman]

as with all "best" threads, it's personal opinion.

[CCCenturion]

In terms of control, I think CE kinda tops in general. >> It tends to clear entire screens and beyond quite well.

And by control, it is more just blind / incapacitate the mobs or deal with them?

What I had in mind when I asked the question was blinding/incapacitating mobs rather than just kill them all as fast as possible. Obviously, killing enemies is the point of the game, but from a strategic viewpoint, if you have good crowd control skills you can survive in harder areas with a lower level character.



After Alkithoe (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=483495) and Anna (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=480035), I'd have to say the amazon gets my vote.

Really? No doubt about it, those guys' naked zons are very impressive, but I think that has a lot more to do with the players' skill than with the class. Think about it, how impressed would you be if someone beat the game with a naked necro or a naked warcry barb? Those two classes would have a much, much easier time, because they have better crowd control skills. The guy who made Alkithoe even said in his original post that Zons have no crowd control. (They have more than he gave credit for, but still, not much.)

[sirpoopsalot]

The necro will most likely have a wall of minions - that's not crowd control, it's pure tanking. In my opinion, there's a difference.

As for the naked barb, feel free to point one out to me, and I'll be duly impressed. ;)

[KillaMike]

crowd control = frost din. they freeze anything more then screen, and with 50% + slowing creeps down, hardly a threat to be heated. i can put all cows in herb with eazness, and in different ways with charge. you cant really say that they are bad at it.

Sorc: what's wrong with them? teleport with 200 fcr, and who can:

a) hit you

b) not follow?

they kinda awesome there.

druids: they just terrible at crowd controlling

[CCCenturion]

The necro will most likely have a wall of minions - that's not crowd control, it's pure tanking. In my opinion, there's a difference.

Touche... I myself pointed out earlier that minions don't really count as crowd control. Which in all fairness should eliminate Valkyries from the Zon side of the debate.



As for the naked barb, feel free to point one out to me, and I'll be duly impressed. ;)

I admit it would be hard to level a naked barb up to 30 in order to start using Warcry, but once you can use that skill (assuming you take care of mana issues), all you need is a well-geared merc and you're unstoppable. Just Taunt everything over to you, Battlecry when they're in range, and start casting Warcry as often as you need to keep them permanently stunned. It's a very simple, extremely effective strategy. Zon crowd control takes a ton more work, since the class isn't really built for it.

[Sass]

Even just blind / immobilize, I'd have to go with the sin. CoS and PS are too much. Then there's MB + the shadow MBing...

EDIT: or since the nec has so many, curses would top. =/

[skyjuice]

And Taunt is so useful it's almost like cheating.

How is it cheating?

[Sass]

How is it cheating?Weakeness them along with drawing them to your powerful grasp. Seems great so far.

[PFSS]

I always understood Crowd Control to be something along the lines of:

"How well a character copes in terms of both survival and killing speed when confronted with large crowds"

On this basis I think Zons (Bow or Light) and Summon Necros come out on top by a long way.

[KillaMike]

I always understood Crowd Control to be something along the lines of:

"How well a character copes in terms of both survival and killing speed when confronted with large crowds"

On this basis I think Zons (Bow or Light) and Summon Necros come out on top by a long way.

you forgeting trap sins, with massive CE from DS and alsp you are forgetting that hammerdin can withstand anything.

[Crowd Control]

I am really content with any well decked char really. But I have to admit that my Charged Boltress rocks throughout the whole game.

:pancake:

[CCCenturion]

I am really content with any well decked char really. But I have to admit that my Charged Boltress rocks throughout the whole game.

:pancake:

Well I guess that settles it. 'Bout time you showed up. :thumbup:

[Cdnexpat]

I picked Necro when this mess started so I’ll focus my attention on them. I'll start by defining crowd control. IMO crowd control is the ability to force monsters to do your bidding or render them harmless. To a lesser extent it is to diminish the power of monsters to do harm. This should not be gear dependant. If minions are counted as crowd control then Necromancers are the crowd control kings as they can summon the most creatures.

Necromancers have the following crowd control curses Dim Vision, Terror, Confuse, and Attract. Bone Wall and Bone Prison can place a physical barrier between the Necromancer and monsters rendering them harmless. They also have the Clay Golem which slows monsters, the Necro can also summon cold skeleton mages (cold tend to be much less effective in hell) but these are minions and I won’t count these as true crowd control. However that is still six different crowd control skills. They also have Weaken and Decrepify which reduce the effectiveness of monsters but don’t’ actually render them harmless.

Barbarians have Howl, Leap, Taunt, Grim Ward, and War Cry. So they have five crowd control skills. They also have Battle Cry which reduces the amount of harm monsters can do.

Amazons have Decoy. It could be argued that Valkyrie is crowd control but it is a minion. They have cold skills but these are of limited effectiveness in Hell.

Assassins have Cloak of Shadows, Shadow Warrior, Mind Blast. They are great skills but there are only three of them.

Paladins have Holy Freeze and Sanctuary (though it isn’t effective against all monsters) neither of which renders monsters harmless.

Druids have cold from Hurricane they also have Shockwave in Werebear form and summoned minions. Of these only shockwave is a true crowd control skill.

Sorceresses arguably have there cold skills but these become less effective in hell and they don’t effect all creatures.

Even though Necros have more skills I find Necros and Barbs equal in terms of crowd control. Assassins and Amazons have fewer skills but I would say that crowd control is never really a problem for them. I find that with Zons especially crowd control is always on your mind so you tend to make better crowd control decisions. That is my opinion on the topic.

[Sass]

Assassins have Cloak of Shadows, Shadow Warrior, Mind Blast. They are great skills but there are only three of them.You forgot WoF, DS, PS, BoI, CoT, and DTail. But I'll forgive you. For now.


Paladins have Holy Freeze and Sanctuary (though it isn’t effective against all monsters) neither of which renders monsters harmless.HF works extremely well to render harmless. O.o One of the best mercs is the HF merc.

The zon's decoy is sort of a minion, but not as smart >>

[Cdnexpat]

You forgot WoF, DS, PS, BoI, CoT, and DTail. But I'll forgive you. For now.

HF works extremely well to render harmless. O.o One of the best mercs is the HF merc.

The zon's decoy is sort of a minion, but not as smart >>

I did miss Dtail, Blades of Ice is a cold skill, I believe the other Assassin skills are fighting skills and not true crowd control skills.

HF, and I like it by the way I once made a sloathadin using Holy Freeze and slow items (Blackthorn's Face, Nos Coil, Astreon's) he was a hoot to play he could slow baal so much that he would just stand and dance, slows monsters much like decrepify, but it doesn't make them truely harmless. Dim Vision will let you run around the monsters like they aren't there.

The Holy freeze merc is great, but the are all useful depending on what you want to acccomplish and how you can gear them. If you have to have crowd control a merc with HF and Reapers can slow everything to a crawl. It it isn't really "player" crowd control.

The zon's decoy is more like grim ward, it doesn't have any AI, it doesn't fight, it is placed by a player to fool the monsters that is why i included it.

I missed Ravens for Druid, they are minions that "cast" dim vision.

[Sass]

I did miss Dtail, Blades of Ice is a cold skill, I believe the other Assassin skills are fighting skills and not true crowd control skills.They're cold skills with a cold radius. It's like Frost Nova'ing. PS use the third charge often as a CC. Or dmg vs an immune >> But the mass freeze arguably works great as CC.

[Cdnexpat]

Fair enough. I will concede you are correct on that point. One question does it work on normal cold immune monsters?

[Sass]

Sure enough, it will not. Most other MA will though. PS alone deals with all immunes.

[lionheartthebrave]

<-- look at the naked ironman hardcore uber tristram run. THAT is crowd control

[Crowd Control]

No no, it wasn't me!! It was ze Zjermans!

[lionheartthebrave]

No no, it wasn't me!! It was ze Zjermans!

true, they did start it, they invaded poland...

[skyjuice]

Is there a taunt 101 guide somewhere?

I have 20 pts in it, just not utilised properly like my howls and grim wards.

[crawlingdeadman]

iirc, there's a PDR/taunt guide at AB.