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View Full Version : Designing a full Skill tree for D3


RawBanana
21-07-2009, 02:25
I got bored and put together a full skill tree complete with classes and rules for D3. Its meant to build on what is currently known about D3 but I've made some interpretations to build a full set of classes and progression that I think is fun and viable. This builds on the "multiple facet" tree theory for maximum builds/skill variety that was discussed in older threads maybe 6months ago now.

Overall Design:
- Allow maximum flexibility for creating new characters and new ways to play the game while keeping overall balance
- No restrictions against making melee casters or unusual builds
- Intention on keeping consistency in Blizzard standard of gameplay: easy to pickup and fun to play at end-game
- 5 classes with 5 Class-Specific Skill Trees 7 Offensive Skill Trees and 3 Defensive Skill Trees
- Classes may end up with both a Mana only, Mana + Rage, or Mana + Energy bar combo.

Defensive and Offensive Skill Trees:
- Every player gets 1 Offensive skill point and 1 Defensive skill point per level
- This ensures players can’t gimp their players to be all offense without any defense ability
- Player can only have a max of 2 Offensive trees and 1 Defensive tree at level “1”
- Players can invest into 1 additional Offensive tree and 1 Defensive tree every 10 levels
- Glass cannons are still possible as skill is required to play defense
- Bad builds will still suck and have problems with resistances
- Offensive Class-specific trees are only accessible by players of that class
- All Defensive trees are accessible by all players/classes
- All Offensive non-class-specific trees are accessible by all players/classes
- Respecs for skill points should be available for a price or after completion of a quest every difficulty level for free

Skill Trees Tiers and Investment:
- 5 tiers of skills (Basic, Advanced, Elite, Heroic, Epic) which require 6 levels before advancing to the next level (max 30)
- Must have at least 3 points in each tier before advancing to next tier
- Progression is like the Hunter’s Pet Talent tree in WOW
- Skills cost between 1-6 points to max at each tier (Defensive trees will have some skills with 20points max eg. +health)
- Certain skills have additional ranks past rank 6 but are attainable only with +skill level items/buffs
- Once a skill is maxed, there will always be skills with synergies that add damage or effects
- Prerequisites will exist for certain skills but are not shown

Skill Progression and Synergies:
- Direct Damage skills scale approximately 50% level based and 50% skill based
- Proc spells typically scale very well with high level AOE abilities and therefore are 100% skill based (eg. Life/manasteal and proc per kill)
- Basic Skills (level 1-6) – focus single target skills or high cost multi target spells and simple defensive spells
- Advanced Skills (level 7-12) – some multi-target spells, limited cc (crowd control), and additional survivability spells
- Elite Skills (level 13-18) – some AOE spells, lots of cc, more summons
- Heroic Skills (level 19-24) – cost of basic skills negligible(flat mana not % of base mana to cast), lots of AOE skills, upgrades to all skills
- Epic Skills (level 25-30) – god-like aoe abilities, summons, high survivability, cost of using Advanced skills will be neglible (flat mana not % of base mana to cast)

Vision for Skill Allocation and Balancing:
- max level is 100
- assuming 6 points invested per tier, ~3 trees can be near maxed
- Single tree focus is also encouraged with a +1% dmg to all skills per point invested
- Multi-tree characters will benefit from being more balanced against immunity/resistant/blocking/melee monsters/players
- Multi-tree characters also have some skills that help other trees eg. +life/mana for each monster hit

Skill Effects:
- All skills fall into effect groups that are additive (+1, +2), multiplicative (+1%, +2%), or exponential (2x2, 3x3, 4x4)
- Exponential must be limited to high level skills because their effects drastically shift the DPS (damage per second) ability of characters by suddenly doubling or more effective dps
- This is reflected in each tier of skill advance (cleave doubles # of targets and doubles DPS, whirlwind on average doubles dps again)
- Similarly, crowd control in the form of AOE stuns/sleep/root would be an exponential multiplier for a character’s effectiveness that would allow the character to control damage from an unlimited number/level of enemies
- Defense can also be a problem if armor/health/resistances from skills become exponential
- All these must be mitigated by costs (mana, timers/cooldown/chargeup, %procs, cast-time)
- Root/stun effects must be limited and every character must have access to a counter/free action skill to counter it

Tree Design:
- Generally each tree below is designed to maximize diversity while fitting into the fast Diablo gaming style
- Generally Class specific skills just don’t seem like skills that should be available to all classes and happened to fall into 5 trees
- Blizzard is falling in love with Procs on effects which are common in WOW and are already in their early skill trees for D3. I’ve added more.
- Procs: % on hit, % on crit, % on dmg taken, % on attack, % on block, % on dodge, @50% life, @100% life, on kill, On death

Mana, Rage and Energy:
- Mana and Energy is the simplest way to balance characters because you know exactly how fast it can be regenerated and can tweak the mana cost of spells
- Energy is just mana that regenerates at a fast fixed rate
- Energy will always play faster as downtime is limited to its regen
- Mana will require a slower more controlled playstyle to manage mana regeneration with maximum DPS and survivability
- Rage is actually a proc skill where mana is generated as a % of damage dealt/received in WOW
- Rage (WOW-style) is not effective in Diablo because it will mean no rage generation vs low level enemies (low hp so low damage) and High level enemies (can’t hit them therefore little rage)
- Rage means that any characters using Rage will have poor effectiveness vs monsters with low hp or high armor/defense
- Rage means that before skills are taken in, they will have poor rage generation in areas with monsters that have low hp or high defense. They will be BORING to play in these areas.
- Rage generation should be consistent vs all level monsters so characters always get regular access to their skills
- Rage generation should be generated by attacks made against enemies and attacks made against yourself
- Rage generation will be consistent vs boss monsters and will be greater when character faces groups of monsters which is balanced by the low survivability of fighting vs large groups

Healing and Health Globes
- Basically a %proc to heal except can be saved for later use
- Will add an additional strategical element to picking up health
- But in groups will get you to hate your dumb group members who pick up the health globes as soon as they drop before anyone needs them
- Makes more sense to have a individual combat healing system where you heal quickly out of combat
- Goal is to be fresh for each battle but have few heals during battles so each battle needs to be earned
- Having no or slow regeneration of health out of combat means gameplay will be slow as characters go out of their way to avoid damage
- Characters should have a way to heal without needing to wait for natural regeneration, health globes, or going back to town (which are all slow or unpredictable).
- A bandage/food system like in WOW should be used to replace after battle healing in D3
- A 2s cast to Heal Over Time (HOT) or Mana Over Time (MOT) for 5s while bandaging/eating/drinking will disable use during a fight but will make downtime inbetween fights much more manageable

D2 style Life/Manasteal
- A huge 10%+lifesteal/manasteal system as in D2 is not the ideal because it is only 1 way of playing the game
- Other builds can depend on: life/mana per kill (eg. Witch doctor/shadow builds), life/mana per critical (rogue builds), casting/attack %procs on attacks to heal/mana, evocation/bandaging to heal/mana, heals/conversions (mana to life or life to mana) for witch doctor/warlock/shadow builds
- D3 should only have minor 1%mana/lifesteal on weapons with the majority of life/manasteal to come from high level talents for those that want to specialize into Holy/Shadow tree

Offensive Trees (mana based):
- Martial – “A true warrior prefers to duel up close and personal. Legends tell of men who are able to wield weapons and slice through enemies like the wind.”
- Ranged – “Many hunters prefer to kill at range before their prey can ever reach them.”
- Fire – “Fire is the tree for damage and destruction. Burn those that oppose you before they can burn you.” Lots of casting and channeling spells focusing on single/AOE DPS over CC. Direct ranged damage with DOT/burn effects.
- Ice – “The safest way to kill an enemy is to control it. Then crush it.” Focus on instant spells that give single/AOE CC through slow/freeze. Cold enemies are more easily frozen and take additional damage from cold.
- Lightning – “Nothing reliably hits takes down its target like lightning. It cuts through a shielded knight in armor like butter.” Unblockable ranged DD focusing on instants and chargeup skills. AOE focused with high mana costs.
- Shadow – “Death is relative. The souls of its victims add to the life of the shadow master.” Focus on instant and cooldown/timer spells to curses and steal life/mana of its enemies. Limited AOE/dps abilities are offset but high survivability spells.
- Divine – “The gods off guidance and protection for their followers.” Instants and Procs to buff and debuff your enemies.
Class Specific Offensive Trees:
- Barbaric – Rage based (rage generation on attack made on enemy/attack received). Instant and timer based skills. Rage generation should be based on enemies hit and hits taken (not damage). Many unblockable or uninterruptable skills. Highest survivability and reliability.
- Witch Doctor/Unholy – Mana based. Use permanent and short term pets and summons to do the dirty work.
- Druid - Mana based. Use roots and CC to control enemies while you shapeshift or your pets take out enemies.
- Mix up healing/casting/melee roles depending on what fits the situation. Arcane Mage – Mana based.
- Rogue – Energy based. Focus on cast, %proc, and instant skills. Has Ambush skills which are typically cast to sneak and deal extra damage. Best 1on1 melee DPS. Energy recharges in 10 seconds to minimize downtime. Use Ambushes, high mobility and Poisons stack to out-maneuver and outdamage opponents.

Defense and Defensive Tree:
- 3 basic forms of defense: high armor, high block, high mitigation
- Mitigation players will dodge, parry, and use magic to reduce their damage taken
- Mitigation players does not require high armor and can dress in cloth or other weaker armor
- Mitigation players will tend to have less hp but have higher mobility
- Block players defensive ability will rely on their ability to aim their shields
- Block players will have higher armor and lower mobility in any case due to their shields with high armor/weight
This is how I think it should work:
- directional blocking facing where ur mouse is pointed
- must press a button (keyboard or mouse) to block
- normally cannot walk while blocking (need skills points to run and block)
- if the player is not blocking the right direction, take 100% dmg
- if blocking the right direction:
-- check against block % (determined by shield size) if blocked then block for 100% dmg
--- small shields (block % of 10-25%), large shields (25-50%), and block skills add up to 50% to get blocking to 100%
-- if blocking check is missed/failed then will still take 50% less damage from regular attacks

Unblockable and Partially unblockable skills:
- 100% unblockable skills will cause 100% damage even if the shield is up and facing the right direction the such as: AOE, all lightning attacks, burning effects from fire, and unblockable attacks (eg. Hammer of Ancients looks like an unblockable skill)
- 50% unblockable skills will typically block for only 50% damage (if block check successful) or 75% damage taken if block check missed. Such as: magic attacks (ice, fire, shadow, arcane), piercing arrows
- If an Unblockable melee attack hits you, no attacks for 1s can be 100% block (they will become partially blocked for 50% damage)

Skills and Damage Progression
- Follow damage/health progression tree to look up max damage per level
- Adjust skill by damage allocation (single melee target

Pets and Scaling:
- Pets take 5% health/armor and hit 5% harder per extra point in the tree they come from
- Pets take 50% of your resistances + their own innate resistance
- Elementals have innate resistance/preferences Eg. Fire elementals are healed by your/other fire damage

Enchanting Weapons
- All trees have various enchant weapon effects
- Scaling problems: I haven’t done the math but Enchant weapon are intended to work on ranged attacks/multiple attacks and

Runes and Glyphs
- Sounds great on paper but will be very hard to implement in an easy way
- Basically will try to work like Glyphs in WOW but will drop instead of be crafted
- Runes will affect ~5-10 skills which it gives similar effects (eg. Faster cast, bouncing effect, explosion on death, etc…)
- Customization of Runes should be done after a tree has been designed to give Glyph like effects
- Glyphs in WOW make a noticeable but not game-breaking changes (eg. Certain builds are much better/viable with a Glyph but not much more powerful with them)

MARTIAL TREE(+1% dmg to all Martial skills per point in MartialTree)
Basic: cleave (ranks: +target+dmg), Dual wield passive (ranks: +hit%), Bleeding attacks: (ranks: +% bleed), dash/sidestep: dash/jump for mobility (not for jumping over enemies) (ranks: +range)
Advanced: charge +dmg, knockback (ranks: +dmg), Jab: triple attack 1 target(ranks: +dmg), First Strike: +dmg if full health (ranks: +dmg), Cold blood: +regen after kill (ranks: +regen health/mana)
Elite: Zeal: attack all adjacent (ranks: +dmg/targets), Slice&Dice: cleave +range (ranks: +damage/targets), Bloodthirst: +50%dmg if enemies <50% (ranks: +dmg), Killer Instint: proc +dmg after crit (ranks: +dmg)
Heroic: whirling attack: 2sec spin (ranks: +dmg), Frenzy (ranks: +speed+dmg+run), Free Basic Martial Attack (ranks: +skill), Revenge: 100%crit if crit
Epic: whirlwind – moving (ranks: +dmg), berserk: 5s buff, crit, knockback, uninterruptable, noblock/dodge (ranks: +dmg), Free Advanced Martial Attack (ranks: +skill), Metal storm: all attacks cleave, +parry% (ranks: +dmg)

RANGER TREE(+1% dmg to all Ranger Skills per point in Ranger Tree)
Basic: aimed snipe: 1s cast, crit, unblockable (ranks: +dmg), Crippling Shots passive- (ranks: +slows), Walking Shot (ranks: +dmg), impale- piercing, cast (ranks: +dmg)
Advanced: quick shots: fast channeled (ranks: +dmg/speed), multishot: spread shots (ranks: +dmg), guided arrow unblockable (ranks: +dmg), Sniper Training: +dmg stand if standing still 2sec
Elite: Volley: fast unaimed shots (ranks: +dmg/speed), Strafe: (ranks: +dmg/targets), Pointblank shot: +crit/dmg if close, passive (ranks: +dmg/range), Penetrate: piercing passive (ranks: +pierce),
Heroic: Rain of arrows: 1s channel aoe (ranks: +dmg/duration), Seeking Arrows passive (ranks: +seek), Free Basic Martial Attack (ranks: +skills)
Epic: army volley: channeled volley (ranks: +dmg), Volley Strafe (ranks: +dmg), Pin all: aoe (ranks: +dmg),
Free Advanced Martial Attack (ranks: +Skills)

FIRE TREE (+5% dmg to all Fire spells per point in Fire Tree)
Basic - Fire Bolt: 1s cast (ranks: +dmg, +aoe range, -cast time), Burning Spells: passive (ranks: +burn dmg, +dmg all fire spells), Immolate: 1s cast, burning ground (ranks: +dmg, +%proc burning ground for all fire spells), Fire Weapon: buff, +fire damage on weapon (ranks: +dmg, can only have 1 weapon enchant per weapon)
Advanced – Firebomb: cast 1s (ranks: +dmg), Disintegrate: channeled (ranks: +dmg), Flamestrike: 1s cast (ranks: +dmg), Burning Weapon: buff (ranks: +dmg and burn effect to enemies hit with weapon)
Elite - Meteorstorm- channeled (ranks: +dmg), Pyroblast: 2s cast fireball (ranks: +dmg, -cast time), Hydra: shoots fire bolts(ranks: +dmg), Fire vunerability: (ranks: +10%dmg if burning)
Heroic - Fire Aura: burning self (ranks: +dmg), Fire Elemental: ranged attacks only, low health, 10s (ranks: +dmg, +hp), Incinerate: consume burning enemies with fire (ranks: +dmg), Wall of Fire: instant (ranks: +dmg)
Epic - Armageddon: 2s cast, raining fireballs aoe (ranks: +dmg, +range), Greater Fire Elemental: charge, fire aura, melees, 30s (ranks: +dmg, melee, +duration), Fire Mastery: penetrate/resist fire (ranks: +1% penetrate/resist fire)

ICE TREE(+5% dmg to all Ice spells per point in Ice Tree)
Basic - Frost Bolt: dmg+slow (ranks: +dmg, +aoe range), Frost Armor +armor+cold (ranks: +armor, +slow for all cold spells), Frostbite: +dmg/crit if cold (ranks: +10%dmg, +5%crit), Frost Weapon buff (ranks: +cold dmg)
Advanced - Ray of Cold (ranks: +dmg), Cold Aura (ranks: +range slow), Frost Nova (ranks: +dmg, +slow, +5% freeze), Ice Bolt: freeze, dmg (ranks: +dmg, +freeze time), +2aim(ranks: +dmg), Ice Weapon proc (ranks: +dmg, +aoe, +1% cold spells to freeze)
Elite – Blizzard: instant aoe, cooldown 2s (ranks: +dmg, +duration), Water Elemental: only shoots Frost Bolts, 10s duration (ranks: +dmg, +hp, +duration), Freezing weapon, (ranks: +dmg)
Heroic - Water elemental- shoot/melee/explode (ranks: +dmg), Shatter proc freeze if crit (ranks: +dmg), Iceblock- instant, invulnerable, immobile, cannot attack (ranks: +duration, -cost), Wall of Ice: roots, dmg wall, 2s cooldown (ranks: +hp, +duration, -cost)
Epic – Ice Armor: shield Xdmg, Frost bolt attacker (ranks: +shield), Frozen Orb (ranks: +dmg), Ice Elementals: shoot/ (ranks: +dmg, +health), Ice Mastery: penetrate/resist ice dmg (ranks: +1% penetrate/resist ice)

LIGHTNING TREE(+5% dmg to all Lightning spells per point in Lightning Tree)
Basic - Charged Bolts (ranks: +dmg, +bolts, -cast time), Lightning Static: +electrical aoe dmg after lightning hits(ranks: +dmg), Electric Aura: shoots CB at attackers (ranks: +dmg, +bolts), Lightning Weapon: +lightning dmg, lightning static (ranks: +dmg)
Advanced - Chain Lightning: +targets channeled (ranks: +dmg, +targets), Nova: 20% mana expensive but high dmg (ranks: +dmg), Thunderstorm: zaps enemies, buff(ranks: +dmg, +frequency), Electrocuting Weapon: lightning dmg unblockable, causes lightning effect (ranks: +dmg, +targets)
Elite - Call lightning: instant cast 2s to land aoe (ranks: +dmg), Call Thunder: ranged AOE stun +dmg (ranks: +stun/range), Static (ranks: +range), Chargeup: passive nonstop 20s charge +50%dmg on next lightning spell(ranks: +20%dmg)
Heroic - Lighting Fury: bouncing bolts (ranks: +dmg/bolts), Death Vortex: wandering aoe cyclone (ranks: +dmg/duration), Energize: damage taken +mana (ranks: +mana), Lightning Shield: centered aoe hitting nearby enemies (ranks: +dmg/range)
Epic - Attunement: -10%mana cost for all spells(ranks: -%mana), Lightning Storm: channeled aoe all (ranks: +dmg), Lightning Elemental: physical immune, melee only, 10s (ranks: +dmg/health/duration), Lightning Mastery: penetrate/resist lightning (ranks: +1% penetrate/resist lightning)

SHADOW TREE(+5% dmg to all Shadow spells per point in Shadow Tree)
Basic - Drain Soul: dot/lifesteal 10s (ranks: +dmg/life stolen), Amplify dmg: +%crit/dmg aoe curse (ranks: +%crit/dmg/range), Decrepify: reduce damage curse (ranks: +effectiveness, +slow), Shadow Weapon +1 mana/dmg per hit (ranks: +mana)
Advanced - Shadow Bolt: seeking, unblockable, 1s cast (ranks: +dmg), Bloodmana: convert life to mana (ranks: +conversion ratio), Fear all (ranks: +range), Steal Souls: aoe damage all to get +heal/mana (ranks: +dmg)
Elite – Desecrate: aoe +damage+mana to those standing in area (ranks: +dmg/mana), Summon Shadow: melee only tank (ranks: +health,damage), Healthstone: heal/hot/mana potion, 2s cast, autouse if below 50% health (ranks: +effectiveness), Shadow Swarm: instant shoot 1+ shadow bolts, (ranks: +dmg/bolts)
Heroic – ShadowMaster: uncontrolled summon, casts spells (ranks: +dmg,armor/health), Shadow Affinity: Proc on cast any shadow spell, 1 free shadow bolt cast(ranks: +20% proc), Dispersion: -90% dmg 3s, +mana, cannot attack (ranks: +duration), Shadowcleave: unblockable, long ranged cleave, instant (ranks: +dmg)
Epic - Shadow Clone: does what you do, 10s (ranks: +duration, max to have 2 clones), Manasteal Weapon +%manasteal (ranks: +dmg), Lichform: +50% all dmg, fly (ranks: +dmg,+physical immunity), Shadow Mastery- penetrate/resist Shadow (ranks: +dmg)

DIVINE TREE(+5% regeneration and healing to all Divine spells per point in Divine Tree)
Basic – Blessing: buff allys +1dmg, debuff target +1dmg taken, stacks 5 times (ranks: +1,2,4,8,12dmg, +1,2,4, 8,12mana), Holy Shield: +20% armor, +10% block (ranks: +20% armor, +5% block), Holy Aura: +1%/s mana/life regen(ranks: +1%), Healing Weapon: 1hp healed per hit (ranks: +1,2,4,8,12 healed)
Advanced - Omen of Clarity: 10%proc on cast/attack = free spell with no mana/rage cost (ranks: +5%proc), Meditation: evocation +50%mana (ranks: +10% mana), Consecrate Ground: aoe +5dmg dealt 10s (ranks: +5,10,20,30, +10s duration), Sacrifice Attack: 1%dmg self, +200%dmg dealt(ranks: +1%dmg, +200%dmg)
Elite - Guardian Angel- heal pet, immobile (ranks: +dmg), convert enemies: aoe (ranks: +dmg), Holy Grace - Proc +mana (ranks: +dmg), fanaticism buff +dmg/speed (ranks: +dmg)
Heroic - judge: stun 1sec, fist of heaven (ranks: +dmg), Divine shield – invulnerable (ranks: +dmg), conviction aura -resist+dmg (ranks: +dmg), self-ressurrection: 1/minute (ranks: +dmg)
Epic - Smite: passive Bless on all attacks (ranks: +dmg), command aura - plus level aura (ranks: +dmg), Healing weapon +%lifesteal (ranks: +dmg), defiance aura: +resist/armor (ranks: +dmg)

BARBARIC TREE(+5% dmg to all Barbaric skills per point in Barbaric Tree)
Basic- Shout +armor (ranks: +armor/duration), Hamstring passive 5%(ranks: +5%slow), Bloodrage: cast rage=10, -1% health(ranks: +dmg), Enrage: +10%rage on hit(ranks: +5rage), Hammer: uninterruptable, unblockable(ranks: +dmg)
Advanced- Sunder armor -5% passive (ranks: -3%armor ), Demoralizing Shout -5%dmg dealt (ranks: -3%), Jump attack (ranks: +dmg/range), Titan's blood: proc hot if crit(ranks: +dmg), Siesmic slam - stun all (ranks: +dmg),
Elite - Thrown Hammer of Ancients(ranks: +dmg), Juggernaut: -%crit %immobile passive (ranks: +%), Stoneform +healthshield, instant(ranks: +dmg), Anger Management: +rage duration/generation (ranks: + duration/generation)
Heroic - Smashing wave (ranged) (ranks: +dmg), Titans Grip: dual 2hand sword (ranks: +dmg), Earthquake: knockback all (ranks: +effective range, +mega-knockback distance), Cleaving Hammer of Ancients(ranks: +dmg), Magekiller: 100%crit if casting (ranks: +crit bonus)
Epic - Furious Charge (ranks: +dmg), Call Ancient Barbarians (ranks: +hp/abilities), Retaliation: if hit %hit back(ranks: +dmg), Free Basic Barbarian attacks(ranks: +additional skill), Battle Command- +1level(ranks: +dmg)

ROGUE TREE(+5% dmg to all Roque skills per point in Rogue Tree)
Basic - Ambush: cast, sneak +crit (ranks: +dmg), Evasion 5s after being crit (ranks: +dmg), Fade -aggro, +resist+dodge (ranks: +dmg), Anatomy: +%crit +crit amt(ranks: +dmg), Poison weapon: cast, X attacks, slows movement (ranks: +dmg +slow)
Advanced - Deadly throw: ranged ambush, +Xtargets (ranks: +dmg), Counterstrike: proc on parry (ranks: +dmg),
Footwork: +%movement passive (ranks: +dmg), Preparation buff: refill energy <30% (ranks: +dmg), Blade Flurry: %proc X3 attacks (Windfury) (ranks: +proc%)
Elite - Mutilate: stun+2w ambush (ranks: +dmg), Remorseless +50%crit on kill (ranks: +dmg), Adrenaline +energy on kill (ranks: +energy), Fan of knives: multishot shuriken (ranks: +dmg), Blade storm: cleave if crit for 1s (ranks: +1sduration)
Heroic - Assasinate: teleport+ambush, instant, unblockable, timer (ranks: +dmg), Vigor: +50% max energy (ranks: +10% energy), Cheat Death: teleport away on killing hit (ranks: +range/dmg), Execute: <50%hp ambush instant spammable (ranks: +dmg), Bladeshield +parry aoe dps(ranks: +dmg)
Epic - Killing Spree: +X targets on ambush (ranks: +target), Unlimited energy 3s(ranks: +1s duration), Free Basic Rogue attacks(ranks: +skill), Deadly spells: chargeup spells to get +ambush dmg, 10s charge (ranks: -1s chargeup)

DRUID TREE(+5% regeneration and damage to all Druid spells per point in Druid Tree)
Basic - Mark of wild +regen/speed (ranks: +dmg), Natures Grasp Root buff if attacked (ranks: +dmg), Rejuvenation instant, 10s +hot/thorns/mana (ranks: +effectiveness), Feralform wolf: +dmg/speed/dual claw, max energy (ranks: +dmg), Sleep - slow if resist (ranks: +dmg)
Advanced - Feralform bear: +dmg/hp/cleave, +rage (ranks: +dmg), Poison ivy - vine aoe (ranks: +dmg),
Summon wolf (ranks: +dmg), Barkskin- uninterruptable -all dmg (ranks: +dmg), Twisters: 3+ knockback physical dmg (ranks: +dmg)
Elite - Feral ambush/maul(hammer) (ranks: +dmg), Feral charge: knockback (ranks: +dmg), Summon bear (ranks: +dmg), treeform - casting regen (ranks: +dmg), Tornado: wandering aoe knockback (ranks: +dmg)
Heroic - Wereform Dire Armored (ranks: +armor/health/dmg), Leader of the Pack lifesteal, hot (ranks: +lifesteal), Elite Dire Armored summons (ranks: +armor/health/dmg), Mount pet pet takes dmg, uninterruptable casting, pet auto melees (ranks: +health/dmg), Hurricane: centered aoe (ranks: +dmg)
Epic - Elemental effects- all magic effects on all melee (ranks: +dmg), Summon treants - 10s (ranks: +treant), Pet aura +regeneration on all pets (ranks: +regen), enervate (ranks: +dmg), Tree of life slow to cast, +armor/regen/health (ranks: +armor/health/regen), Armageddon (ranks: +dmg)

ARCANE TREE(+5% dmg to all Arcane spells per point in Arcane Tree)
Basic - Silence proc (ranks: +dmg), Arcane missle - no dodge, proc fastcast (ranks: +dmg), crit=slow attacks (ranks: +dmg), Manaburst- 2x dmg if max mana (ranks: +dmg), Magic vunerability passive (ranks: +dmg),
Advanced - Slow projectiles passive (ranks: +dmg), Arcane orb – knockback (ranks: +dmg), Innervate- recharge timer (ranks: +dmg), Temporal sphere (ranks: +dmg), Spectral attack: ignore armor (ranks: +duration)
Elite - Inertial stop - no projectiles (ranks: +dmg), Arcane nova: dmg, reflect projectiles (ranks: +dmg), Temporal armor: miss 1 attack/aoe per 5 seconds (ranks: +dmg), Antimagic field: absorb magic (ranks: +dmg), Spectral weapon: ignore armor attacks (ranks: +dmg)
Heroic - Spectral slice: aoe cleave, unblockable (ranks: +dmg), Timestop- pause zone (ranks: +dmg), Fastcasting +fastcast (ranks: +dmg), Temporal shift - pause/5sec (ranks: +dmg), Reverse inertia: reflect projectiles (ranks: +dmg)
Epic – Manadump: unlimited mana (ranks: +dmg), Free Basic Arcane Spells (ranks: +skill), Arcane master- penetrate/resist physical (ranks: +dmg), Multi-effect: +weapon effect on arcane spells (ranks: +dmg), Temporal sense: +crit% on attacks, -crit self (ranks: +dmg)

WITCH DOCTOR TREE(+5% dmg to all Witch Doctor spells/summons per point in Witch Doctor Tree)
Basic - Summon imps +spellpower (ranks: +dmg), Plague of frogs (poison aoe) (ranks: +dmg), Bloodlink +health, split dmg (ranks: +%split/better ratio), Voodoo dogs (ranks: +dmg +dog +summon health), Locusts – channeled (ranks: +dmg)
Advanced - Summon skeletons (ranks: +summons numbers), Summon succubi: ranged (ranks: +summon attack dmg), Leech mana from summons (ranks: +dmg), Mend summons (ranks: +dmg), Flaming bats (ranks: +dmg)
Elite- Lifestealing summons (ranks: +dmg), Summon golem: tank (ranks: +dmg), Sacrifice: explode pet (fire) (ranks: +dmg), Wall of zombies (ranks: +dmg), Thornskin: thorns on summons(ranks: +dmg)
Heroic - Summon skeletal knights (ranks: +dmg), Summon wild demon (ranks: +dmg), Zombie prison - root
Revive (ranks: +dmg), Dancing sword (ranks: +20% extra sword)
Epic - Enslave demon (ranks: +dmg), Demonform - high mana cost (ranks: +dmg), Unholy army - 10xghouls 10s(ranks: +dmg), Unholy aura- Summon resist (ranks: +dmg), Haunt- summon 10s ghosts (ranks: +dmg)

DEFENSIVE TECHNIQUE TREE(+1% hitpoints per point in Defensive Tree)
Basic- Toughness: +X% hp, use Mail/Plate armor (all classes), Parry: % parry all attack/ranged
Advanced- Last Stand (auto) 30s cooldown (ranks: +hp), Armor efficiency +armor (ranks: +5% armor), Dodge % dodge projectiles and attacks not AOE
Elite- Regen if <50% health (ranks: +dmg), parry to deflect (ranks: 5+1%parry), parry magic (ranks: +20% chance),
Heroic Evade: -%dmg for AOEs (ranks: -3%dmg), parry to reflect (ranks: +20% chance), Resilience: +resist all if <50% health (ranks: 2%+1% resist all)
Epic +X% Resist all (ranks: 1%+0.5% resist all)

BLOCK DEFENSE TREE(+1% armor to all Fire spells per point in Fire Tree)
Basic- Blocking technique+%block (ranks: +dmg), Shield bash: knockback (ranks: +dmg), Mobile Blocking: walk/run Block (ranks: +dmg)
Advanced: Shield strike- 50% cast/attack (ranks: +dmg), Deflect ranged attacks (ranks: +dmg), Improved block +coverage (ranks: +dmg)
Elite- Magic Block +% magic resist (ranks: +dmg), Phalanx - shielded jab (ranks: +dmg), Counterblock- reflect dmg (ranks: +dmg)
Heroic- Autoblock buff - 1/10sec (ranks: +dmg), Reflect ranged attack proc (ranks: +dmg), Shieldwall -50%dmg, on timer (ranks: +dmg),
Epic Shield resist +X% resist all with/without blocking (ranks: 1%+0.5% resist all), Avengers shieldthrow (stuns) (ranks: +targets), Shield Cover +% resist AOE when blocking (ranks: +5% resist)

MAGICAL DEFENSE TREE(+1% dmg to all Fire spells per point in Fire Tree)
Basic: Arcane shield- absorb dmg (ranks: -5xlevel dmg), Blur buff: dodge +20% buff (ranks: +2% dodge), Mage armor +armor –dmg (ranks: -1dmg)
Advanced: Force shield- %blocks for u (ranks: +%block), Energy shield dmg=mana (ranks: +efficiency), Mirror image: meat shield (ranks: +dmg),
Elite: Purge: auto/5s all negative effects (ranks: +dmg), Teleport (ranks: +dmg), Polymorph/sheep (ranks: +duration),
Heroic: Counterspell: 1s cast, counter all magic in air (ranks: -mana, -cast speed), Aoe counterspell: cast (ranks: +dmg), Purge aoe eg. Purge fires on ground (ranks: +dmg),
Epic +X% Resist all (ranks: 1%+0.5% resist all), Etheral form physical resist (ranks: +1% resist)

Let me know what you think and if anyone actually reads this. I should post this in the official Diablo forums but I lost my Diablo2 keys and am busy playing WOW right now.

RawBanana
21-07-2009, 08:37
Some additional thoughts I had while designing a tree is the ways to adjust damage and health to keep a balanced but interesting game. For example, certain skills that have cast time, attack single targets, and delays before landing (think a Meteor spell without the explosion) should have higher damage and lower mana cost to justify itself.

Positive dps Adjustments
DOT <2s +10%
DOT<5s +20%
DOT<10s +50%
DOT- indefinite +100%
Instant 0%
Cast 1s +20%
Cast 2s +50%
Delay 1s +20%
Delay 2s +50%
Chargeup 2s +50%
Chargeup 5s +100%
Chargeup 10s +200%
Channel +20%
mana 5% of base +10%
mana 10% of base +25%
mana 20% of base +60%
mana 33% of base +150%
mana 50% of base +300%
mana 80% of base +600%


Negative dps adjustments
mana 0% of base 0%
Ranged attack -10%
Instant ranged -20%
Slow 10% -10%
Slow 30% -20%
Slow 50% -30%
Pet aggro -10%
Slow Target's attacks -20%
+1 target -20%
+2 target -30%
AOE burst -40%
AOE ranged -50%
AOE all -60%
Pin -40%
Stun -60%


Damage and health Scaling:
I'm sure designers have their own internal way of determining how much health or damage they want characters to deal at every level. This illustrates a progression about how damage/health should progress. If skills don't progress along this line, your players will be overpowered or underpowered at different levels in the game.

Multipliers are basically the amount your skills stack to allow you to hit harder. This would probably be the base dmg/health for a max glass cannon vs a high health/armor tank. The tank would last just over 1second assuming it stood still and allowed say a Mage to land a full Meteor and Frozen Orb directly on him without blocking. Unlikely but it seems to be the way D2 was balanced.

WOW is balanced very differently and 2 equal level players should last 5seconds or so if a Tank stood there taking full damage from a DPS player.

Damage scaling per level
Lvl Multiplier Weapon dps Net DPS
1 1.1 1.0 1.1
2 1.2 1.5 2.1
3 1.3 2.0 3.1
4 1.5 2.5 4.3
5 1.6 3.0 5.7
6 1.8 3.5 7.4
7 1.9 4.0 9.5
8 2.1 4.5 11.9
9 2.4 5.0 14.7
10 2.6 5.5 18.1
11 2.9 6.0 22.0
12 3.1 6.5 26.5
13 3.5 7.0 31.8
14 3.8 7.5 38.0
15 4.2 8.0 45.1
16 4.6 8.5 53.4
17 5.1 9.0 62.9
18 5.6 9.5 73.9
19 6.1 10.0 86.6
20 6.7 10.5 101.2
21 7.4 11.0 118.0
22 8.1 11.5 137.3
23 9.0 12.0 159.4
24 9.8 12.5 184.7
25 10.8 13.0 213.6
26 11.9 13.5 246.7
27 13.1 14.0 284.5
28 14.4 14.5 327.6
29 15.9 15.0 376.7
30 17.4 15.5 432.7
31 19.2 16.0 496.5
32 21.1 16.5 569.0
33 23.2 17.0 651.5
34 25.5 17.5 745.1
35 28.1 18.0 851.5
36 30.9 18.5 972.2
37 34.0 19.0 1,109.1
38 37.4 19.5 1,264.3
39 41.1 20.0 1,440.1
40 44.4 20.5 1,609.3
41 48.0 21.0 1,797.3
42 51.8 21.5 2,005.8
43 56.0 22.0 2,237.2
44 60.5 22.5 2,493.8
45 65.3 23.0 2,778.2
46 70.5 23.5 3,093.3
47 76.2 24.0 3,442.3
48 82.2 24.5 3,828.7
49 88.8 25.0 4,256.4
50 95.9 25.5 4,729.6
51 103.6 26.0 5,253.0
52 111.9 26.5 5,831.8
53 120.9 27.0 6,471.5
54 130.5 27.5 7,178.5
55 141.0 28.0 7,959.5
56 152.2 28.5 8,822.1
57 164.4 29.0 9,774.5
58 177.6 29.5 10,825.8
59 191.8 30.0 11,985.9
60 207.1 30.5 13,265.8
61 227.8 31.0 14,949.3
62 234.7 31.5 15,769.3
63 241.7 32.0 16,629.1
64 249.0 32.5 17,530.5
65 256.4 33.0 18,475.2
66 264.1 33.5 19,465.2
67 272.0 34.0 20,502.6
68 280.2 34.5 21,589.3
69 288.6 35.0 22,727.7
70 297.3 35.5 23,919.8
71 306.2 36.0 25,168.1
72 315.4 36.5 26,475.0
73 324.8 37.0 27,843.1
74 334.6 37.5 29,275.1
75 344.6 38.0 30,773.6
76 354.9 38.5 32,341.7
77 365.6 39.0 33,982.2
78 376.6 39.5 35,698.3
79 387.9 40.0 37,493.2
80 399.5 40.5 39,370.4
81 411.5 41.0 41,333.4
82 423.8 41.5 43,385.7
83 436.5 42.0 45,531.2
84 449.6 42.5 47,774.0
85 463.1 43.0 50,118.0
86 477.0 43.5 52,567.6
87 491.3 44.0 55,127.3
88 506.1 44.5 57,801.7
89 521.3 45.0 60,595.7
90 536.9 45.5 63,514.2
91 553.0 46.0 66,562.4
92 564.1 46.5 69,068.8
93 575.3 47.0 71,658.4
94 586.8 47.5 74,333.7
95 598.6 48.0 77,097.4
96 610.6 48.5 79,952.0
97 622.8 49.0 82,900.4
98 635.2 49.5 85,945.3
99 647.9 50.0 89,089.6

Health
95 50% 30% 472.50
132 50% 30% 660.00
173 50% 30% 862.50
216 50% 30% 1,080.00
263 50% 30% 1,312.50
312 50% 30% 1,560.00
365 50% 30% 1,822.50
420 50% 30% 2,100.00
479 50% 30% 2,392.50
540 50% 30% 2,700.00
605 50% 30% 3,022.50
672 50% 30% 3,360.00
743 50% 30% 3,712.50
816 50% 30% 4,080.00
893 50% 30% 4,462.50
972 50% 30% 4,860.00
1,055 50% 30% 5,272.50
1,140 50% 30% 5,700.00
1,229 50% 30% 6,142.50
1,320 50% 30% 6,600.00
1,415 50% 30% 7,072.50
1,512 50% 30% 7,560.00
1,613 50% 30% 8,062.50
1,716 50% 30% 8,580.00
1,823 50% 30% 9,112.50
1,932 50% 30% 9,660.00
2,045 50% 30% 10,222.50
2,160 50% 30% 10,800.00
2,279 50% 30% 11,392.50
2,400 50% 30% 12,000.00
2,525 50% 30% 12,622.50
2,652 50% 30% 13,260.00
2,783 50% 30% 13,912.50
2,916 50% 30% 14,580.00
3,053 50% 30% 15,262.50
3,192 50% 30% 15,960.00
3,335 50% 30% 16,672.50
3,480 50% 30% 17,400.00
3,629 50% 30% 18,142.50
3,780 50% 30% 18,900.00
3,935 50% 30% 19,672.50
4,092 50% 30% 20,460.00
4,253 50% 30% 21,262.50
4,416 50% 30% 22,080.00
4,583 50% 30% 22,912.50
4,752 50% 30% 23,760.00
4,925 50% 30% 24,622.50
5,100 50% 30% 25,500.00
5,279 50% 30% 26,392.50
5,460 50% 30% 27,300.00
5,645 50% 30% 28,222.50
5,832 50% 30% 29,160.00
6,023 50% 30% 30,112.50
6,216 50% 30% 31,080.00
6,413 50% 30% 32,062.50
6,612 50% 30% 33,060.00
6,815 50% 30% 34,072.50
7,020 50% 30% 35,100.00
7,229 50% 30% 36,142.50
7,440 50% 30% 37,200.00
7,655 50% 30% 38,272.50
7,872 50% 30% 39,360.00
8,093 50% 30% 40,462.50
8,316 50% 30% 41,580.00
8,543 50% 30% 42,712.50
8,772 50% 30% 43,860.00
9,005 50% 30% 45,022.50
9,240 50% 30% 46,200.00
9,479 50% 30% 47,392.50
9,720 50% 30% 48,600.00
9,965 50% 30% 49,822.50
10,212 50% 30% 51,060.00
10,463 50% 30% 52,312.50
10,716 50% 30% 53,580.00
10,973 50% 30% 54,862.50
11,232 50% 30% 56,160.00
11,495 50% 30% 57,472.50
11,760 50% 30% 58,800.00
12,029 50% 30% 60,142.50
12,300 50% 30% 61,500.00
12,575 50% 30% 62,872.50
12,852 50% 30% 64,260.00
13,133 50% 30% 65,662.50
13,416 50% 30% 67,080.00
13,703 50% 30% 68,512.50
13,992 50% 30% 69,960.00
14,285 50% 30% 71,422.50
14,580 50% 30% 72,900.00
14,879 50% 30% 74,392.50
15,180 50% 30% 75,900.00
15,485 50% 30% 77,422.50
15,792 50% 30% 78,960.00
16,103 50% 30% 80,512.50
16,416 50% 30% 82,080.00
16,733 50% 30% 83,662.50
17,052 50% 30% 85,260.00
17,375 50% 30% 86,872.50
17,700 50% 30% 88,500.00
18,029 50% 30% 90,142.50


I did this in excel but I don't know how to post charts. Hope its useful.

SlechtWeerBeer
21-07-2009, 18:34
You have way too much time on your hands :P
You threw away most of what is certain of D3, really. Quite interesting.
Haven't read into it a lot (just a couple of 'headers'), so no big wall of text for you to read. Just a few random comments in no specific order (at all).

Why not call the tiers Tier I-V? Just wondering.

WD tree has way too many summons, imo. 12, to be precise. That's a crapload of minions running around. Sure, most are 10 sec, but that just means you'll be constantly holding the right mouse button to resummon them, rather than actually fighting.
I don't think the WD is going to be a summoner at all beyond the Mongrels it currently has, but we'll see.

On skill trees more specifically: For what I can salvage from that massive block of text, each class has 15 skill trees to choose from? That's not what I'd call easy to pick up.
With shared skill trees across all classes, they're not going to be all that diverse, right?

The D3 team's first iteration of the Disintegrate spell was a Barbarian charge attack. Hold the button, charge up a massive swing for big damage. It sucked, though, because standing still doesn't do a thing. You'd also have the problem of allies suddenly obliterating everything in front of you, making that ubercharged swing miss. I doubt they plan to add anything Channeling. Activation time? Maybe. Unlikely, though, because it's all but fast action.

I personally dislike the different resources idea, where suddenly a Barbarian can have Rage and Energy (example).
We also have no idea how Fury (it's the name given to Rage in D3) is built up, except that both taking and dealing damage gives you 'points', or 'charge', something. However, if a monster has low health, there's no reason to assume you'd get a pathetic amount of Fury. Damage dealt doesn't have to be limited to enemy health :)

That's about it. If I misunderstood anything: Sorry. I tend to confuse myself.

theeliminator
21-07-2009, 19:06
You have put a lot of work into this post, but it doesn't really look like your making D3 it looks more like WoW. The point is to make a game different not just makes a 3rd person WoW game.

I am not sure how Glyphs, (cause I stopped playing WoW before they added them) but from what we have been told about Runes they don't seem to be the same thing. Each active spell is able to have one rune added to it changing it, sometimes drastically. (Like a Striking rune in teleport) There is no connection to the other Runes in the tree.

RawBanana
22-07-2009, 05:17
To SlechtWeerBeer:
Why not call the tiers Tier I-V?
I thought its more descriptive to use a more descriptive name. Progression in Diablo always seemed to be as a Basic fighting skills into an Epic skills. Blizzard always emphasizes how they want their games to feel epic and not just basic. But for character progression, you need to start somewhere. Tier I-V is fine actually.

They probably won't name it in the game anyways. It is more of a guideline for myself when I designed the skills and decided where to put them.

I am also sure blizzard will redo a lot of their skill tree and dynamics as their development progresses anyways. In WOW, mechanics get patched monthly and the changes are quite noticeable. You can definitely see the influences of Diablo in WOW. I prefer Diablo but D2 is too old now. At least I can get my girlfriend to play WOW.

Regarding Channeling, I was surprized to see the disintegrate spell in D3 which is a channeling spell. Channeling is one of the most punishing mechanics to cast a spell. You must stand still to cast a DOT (damage over time)? That sucks. But it definitely looks cool and has its uses in a long corridor. It also works well with the Arcane Field (name?) which slows projectiles so I'm sure it will have its uses.

Blizzard is really playing around with different ways to cast spells in WOW and it has shown its influence in D3 already. Activation time, proc to cast and others are already in their preliminary trees. I've just tried to summarize them in my tree design and designed a couple skills to build them around. Certain mechanics fit certain classes. Its hard to have a cast-time for a melee class unless it is a Rogue and wants to sneak attack/ambush for example.

Resources
I also dislike Rage a lot. Its really unpredictable to use in WOW but some people like it. I'd really prefer a predictable mana or energy system. Energy in my opinion works fine. Its just like a mage with super high regeneration and a small mana pool. As for fury, it sucks against monsters with small health pools as you can't hit them hard enough to generate fury. It really doesn't seem to work well in Diablo unless they change the way its calculated from something different than in WOW.


To theeliminator:
I'm sure this will play very different from WOW. WOW is so slow and limited in your skills. Tons of buttons to push and not very straight-forward. But there are things it can bring to Diablo. Mainly boss encounters which are very Epic in WOW and additional skills/crafting etc.

Glyphs and Runes are similar in my mind. You have one rune/glyph per skill basically. D3 intends to have many Runes available per skill where as WOW has only 1-3 Glyphs available per skill right now. I'm definitely hoping it will be much more impactful on the game than Glyphs which really don't change the skill much. BUt you can't just have Runes that give people overpowered skills too fast. Or perhaps certain runes will only affect say 3-5 skills and not all skills. Its just theorizing at this point because it can easily be overpowered.

theeliminator
22-07-2009, 05:51
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhPTXzlJro

Not sure if you have seen this vid, it's from last year but and the skill trees have changed a ton. The vid at least shows what runes could do, and how much a rune can change the spell you attach it to.

SlechtWeerBeer
22-07-2009, 15:47
Regarding Channeling, I was surprized to see the disintegrate spell in D3 which is a channeling spell. Channeling is one of the most punishing mechanics to cast a spell. You must stand still to cast a DOT (damage over time)? That sucks. But it definitely looks cool and has its uses in a long corridor. It also works well with the Arcane Field (name?) which slows projectiles so I'm sure it will have its uses.


Ah, that way of channeling. Meteor Storm and presumably Blizzard cast in a similar manner: Hold down the button and stuff dies. Stop holding the button, punishment stops.
For some reason I mixed Channeling ala Disintegrate with charging skills o-O My bad.
As for the Arcane field; It's Slow Time officially :)


Blizzard is really playing around with different ways to cast spells in WOW and it has shown its influence in D3 already. Activation time, proc to cast and others are already in their preliminary trees. I've just tried to summarize them in my tree design and designed a couple skills to build them around. Certain mechanics fit certain classes. Its hard to have a cast-time for a melee class unless it is a Rogue and wants to sneak attack/ambush for example.


I thought procs like Life Tap on Attack/Hit existed in D2?
What skills in D3 have an activation time? Can't recall any at the moment


Resources
I also dislike Rage a lot. Its really unpredictable to use in WOW but some people like it. I'd really prefer a predictable mana or energy system. Energy in my opinion works fine. Its just like a mage with super high regeneration and a small mana pool. As for fury, it sucks against monsters with small health pools as you can't hit them hard enough to generate fury. It really doesn't seem to work well in Diablo unless they change the way its calculated from something different than in WOW.

I don't dislike Fury thus far. I said I disliked something from your post, where a character can end up with both Fury and Energy (or Mana) --> "- Classes may end up with both a Mana only, Mana + Rage, or Mana + Energy bar combo." from your initial post.

As for Fury buildup (again); Wether a monster has little health shouldn't matter for Fury. Taking Guild Wars as an example: If a player has 600 health, which is normal, and you hit him with a Siege machine you can easily deal over 600 damage, under right circumstances.
A monster with 5 health can still take 50k damage.

Regardless, imo monster packs shouldn't feature massive differences in health. Seeing a quarter of the pack die just because you walked towards them is silly. That might just be me, though.

Death_of_Angels
22-07-2009, 16:32
To SlechtWeerBeer:
Why not call the tiers Tier I-V?
You can definitely see the influences of Diablo in A. I prefer Diablo but D2 is too old now.

agreed, although i don't play WoW cuz i don't wanna pay, plus it's waaay too slow, especially when i'm used to playing games like Starcraft or D2.

Regarding Channeling, I was surprized to see the disintegrate spell in D3 which is a channeling spell. Channeling is one of the most punishing mechanics to cast a spell. You must stand still to cast a DOT (damage over time)? That sucks. But it definitely looks cool and has its uses in a long corridor. It also works well with the Arcane Field (name?) which slows projectiles so I'm sure it will have its uses.

Totally random thought, but i just had a vision of slow time being combine with disintegrate to obliterate any projectile that is launched at you. THAT, would be Badass.

Now for your post.

**** man how much free time do you have. Does your girlfriend now about this??

but more seriously, this is good work, i just don't honestly know what you're trying to accomplish.

Is this in regards to PvP? how you're trying to make all characters perfectly balanced.

In my opinion it seems like you're trying to rehash D2 values into D3. The problem is that D3 is going to be balanced completley different.

My impression at least is that they want to make the characters seem much more powerful and epic than they were in D2, but at the same time, make the monsters significantly more powerful, so that you can't just run into a group of enemies, mass click, and bang, dead bodies everywhere.

Health values will be different as well. we don't know how much mileage we'll get out of one HP, nor how much damage will be dealt.

i guess in short these numbers seem arbitrary to me. Correct me if i'm wrong.

RawBanana
24-07-2009, 13:52
To: SlechtWeerBeer
“I thought procs like Life Tap on Attack/Hit existed in D2?”
Oh yeah. Its not a commonly used skill for me so I forgot about it. Which is my issue with D2, many skills and mechanics are limited to certain classes and don’t often appear on weapons. WOW is increasingly putting more mechanics into all characters depending on their talents/skill trees and/or equipment.


“What skills in D3 have an activation time? Can't recall any at the moment”
Actually I should be more consistent. I meant Cooldowns. D2 had unlisted cooldowns for some spells like Frozen Orb (2secs) and Hydra (1second) already. D3 is considering cooldowns for the Barbarian self-ressurection on death skill (which I forgot the name and am too lazy to look up).

It is even more similar to a Charge-up mechanic (think Megaman) which I define as a spell where you must wait 5 seconds before you can cast a 2x damage fireball. Otherwise a regular 1x damage fireball can be spammed. Very 1980’s arcade like.

The newest class added to WOW is the Deathknight which is built around have 3 sets of semi-related cooldown timers. Playing the class is all about managing your cooldowns. I haven’t spent enough time playing that to fully get a feel of it yet. I play a lot of Shaman in WOW which has plenty of 5-6s cooldowns already.

Personally, I hope they don’t get rid of the instant cast/cooldowns for Meteor/Blizzard. Much of the fun of a sorceress is running around spamming instant spells to “kite” monsters. Perhaps it’s a high level skill but adding instant cast/cooldowns at higher levels would make them last longer. Otherwise I can imagine a Barbarian (or monster equivalent) Furious Charging the poor Wizard who will get stunlocked and ww to death before they can teleport away.


“I don't dislike Fury thus far. I said I disliked something from your post, where a character can end up with both Fury and Energy (or Mana) --> "- Classes may end up with both a Mana only, Mana + Rage, or Mana + Energy bar combo." from your initial post.”

They seem to have shown a rage and mana combo bar already in D3 which is why I’m leaving it in my post. I’ve played the WOW Druid which has mana (human form), energy(in cat form), and Rage (in bear) form and I think it works ok with different bars. It definitely complicates things and I would not want to start a newbie like my gf on that class. I’ll leave it to Blizzard to manage the interface and art. My strength is in structuring math and written solutions.


“As for Fury buildup (again); Wether a monster has little health shouldn't matter for Fury. Taking Guild Wars as an example: If a player has 600 health, which is normal, and you hit him with a Siege machine you can easily deal over 600 damage, under right circumstances.
A monster with 5 health can still take 50k damage.
Regardless, imo monster packs shouldn't feature massive differences in health. Seeing a quarter of the pack die just because you walked towards them is silly. That might just be me, though.”
Fury as a mechanic still annoys me. Just the idea of it seems impossible to balance for varying levels. Situations below:
-Fury dependent on damage dealt vs low level/1hp creatures:- You have near 99% hit chance and high critical chance on them to hit for 50k damage.
- Implications:- I’ll go bang a bunny for 50k overkill when I run low on rage.

-Fury dependent on damage received by enemy (limited by their hp):- If there is an attack of 1000 killer bunnys with 1hp. The Barbarian will never get have enough rage to do any skills at higher levels. Bunnys will overwhelm him as he smacks individual rabbits into pulp one by one as they gang up on him.

-Why have Fury when u have Frenzy (D2 skill)? Same thing. Start slow, hit harder and faster as you go! Its basically 5 stages of rage which you gain by hitting any enemy (including 1hp bunnies). Sorry for the sarcasm but D2 is cool because you fight lots of varying monsters including those that have lots of pets/minions with low hp. Its ok to have lots of low hp skeletons protecting casters because its fun and other D2 classes could deal with them. But Rage is unintuitive because humans only “hit their second wind once/twice” and “needs a couple swings or jog to warm up”.

Perhaps people that played the Barbarian in D3 can comment but the current system Rage system (which looks like the same used in WOW) sucks for D3. I propose using Frenzy as the mechanic for Rage generation.


To: Death_of_Angels
“Totally random thought, but i just had a vision of slow time being combine with disintegrate to obliterate any projectile that is launched at you. THAT, would be Badass.”
And skill that allows Disintegrate to destroy incoming projectiles? Sounds like a great idea! Should be high level skill though. Otherwise, it would be too easy for a low level to sweep the screen with a Disintegrate every now and then to destroy all arrows in the air.


“**** man how much free time do you have. Does your girlfriend now about this??”
Well shhhh…. But I actually do a lot of this at work. People can’t tell then when I type stuff in Word/Excel that its not work. I looks like “a wall of text” and no one is that bored to read it when they walk by. I admit it took an hour a day over a couple weeks to write though. But I had a boring/slow couple weeks and this interests me enough to start working hard after I slack off writing this.

My gf does know actually. But its “a wall of text” and she’s not bored enough to figure it out. And I try to do it when I’m bored waiting for her or at work. =)

“but more seriously, this is good work, i just don't honestly know what you're trying to accomplish.”
Thanks! Always nice to know someone enjoys what you write. Well as most people, I like playing games, I like Blizzard games, and I like to make games better. I do legal/financial structuring at work and I think my skills overlap with the mathematical/logical structuring skills needed to analyze/balance a game. I also think this is fun and if my ideas make it to a Blizzard game or make some other game better, awesome! In the end if I get better games to play its great! And I have fun doing it anyways.

Otherwise, I like my job and its too risky to try to make it in the game industry any time soon. I don’t have enough tech background anyways. This is just a hobby.


“Is this in regards to PvP? how you're trying to make all characters perfectly balanced.”
I don’t PVP much personally. But I think that well balanced game should have decent PVP. There will always be a class that has an easier time vs some classes. Broken abilities (like overuse of stunlock, sleep, instant kill) are a sign of badly designed games. Generally, if an ability is overpowered for a player, a monster shouldn’t have it either. Carefully controlled bosses and boss encounters are an exception.

In general, I like the Blizzard strategy of stone/paper/scissors. Otherwise, it becomes like Starcraft PVP where u need calculus to find the most efficient pvp methods and u need elaborate ranking systems. Let starcraft focus on pvp. What I find is that in D2/WOW 1on1 PVP takes too much good gear and I don’t have the time. WOW battlegrounds with 10on10 or more is mildly interesting although I haven’t spent much time on it yet.

If anyone cares, I think Blizzard will make eventually make a WOW/Diablo version of Dynasty Warriors where you are a leader in an army laying siege on another army. Great blend of Diablo AOE action with WOW world PVP. But ppl tell me D3 isn’t ready for this. Maybe in the future. Sigh… I wrote about this before in another diii.net thread but forgot the link.

“In my opinion it seems like you're trying to rehash D2 values into D3. The problem is that D3 is going to be balanced completley different.”
I agree. But a mix of new with old is good. I don’t want a WOW in D3 but I have some ideas that hopefully will make it better.


“My impression at least is that they want to make the characters seem much more powerful and epic than they were in D2, but at the same time, make the monsters significantly more powerful, so that you can't just run into a group of enemies, mass click, and bang, dead bodies everywhere.”
Yes and no. There will be a mix of both I’m sure! Note how easily the casters/zombies/fallen died in the D3 demo. Some will fall easily. But if you aren’t careful, a berserker can sneak up behind u and stun/hit you really hard. I think the point is that each batch of monsters you fight will be different. Given the right class or tactics, some enemies will fall very fast and other enemies will be very hard. D3 is evolving to use more tactics/strategy.

I’m sure high level boss encounters will be like the scripted WOW events where you can easily die if you don’t know your enemy and how to react.


“Health values will be different as well. we don't know how much mileage we'll get out of one HP, nor how much damage will be dealt.

i guess in short these numbers seem arbitrary to me. Correct me if i'm wrong.”
Depending what you are trying to design, Health and Damage are actually fundamental. You can design the skills to look great and play fun. But if you don’t advance your skills properly over 100 levels, they will be useless at high levels (like many D2 skills) or overpowered at lower levels.

Doing it the WOW way would be investing in a Talent/skill point that gives you +1% damage on all attacks… Er ok. So after 100 levels I’ll hit twice as hard. Not a very fun skill or talent but at least this way you ensure characters won’t be overpowered. I like D2 damage advancement where each level I feel noticeably more powerful.

Another need for the Health/damage advancement is to allow PVP. The D2 Median XL mod has something like 40k damage output on a 10k health character. PVP would be quick, to say the least. I think Median XL is great and is limited by how much u can mod the D2 engine. With D3, they should aim to keep damage/Health multiple more conservative.

Similarly People that design their skills need to of how it may be over/underpowered. Skills like D2’s Hydra, Shadow Master/summons, and extended AOE spells (Blizzard, Frozen Orb) allow you to stack your damage immensely if given time. For example, if all 3 skills were in the same tree and I was able to max all 3, that tree would be super overpowered.

Designing a viable build in D2 was usually about picking skills that stacked. Eg:
- Frozen Orb (cooldown) with Charged bolt (instant) and thunderstorm (passive)
- Skeletons/revive (summon) with bone spirit (instant)
- Hydra (10s summon) with Frozen Orb (cooldown)
- Valkerie (summon) with strafe/multishot/lightning fury(instant)
- Cold aura (passive) with Zeal (instant)
- Traps (summons) with kick (instant)
- Bear/wolves (summons) with werewolf fury(instant)
- Builds based only on Instants that are complementary like WW/Jump/Shouts also work
- Builds based only on Cooldowns that are complimentary also work but aren’t common in D2 (eg. Hydra with Frozen Orb, or Death Knights(WOW), Enhancement Shamans(WOW))

Of course there are your truly broken skills like Hammerdins (which would die in corridors and are only good for farming/pvp).

As a designer, they really need to think about this. You can’t design a balanced tree without it. Certain classes/trees will be too powerful/weak. But this only concerns people who want to think about how much damage is done. If you are just designing a class or describing a skill that looks cool/plays well, there is no need to think about it.

RawBanana
24-07-2009, 13:53
Double post. Please delete.

SlechtWeerBeer
24-07-2009, 16:25
“What skills in D3 have an activation time? Can't recall any at the moment”
Actually I should be more consistent. I meant Cooldowns. D2 had unlisted cooldowns for some spells like Frozen Orb (2secs) and Hydra (1second) already. D3 is considering cooldowns for the Barbarian self-ressurection on death skill (which I forgot the name and am too lazy to look up).

It is even more similar to a Charge-up mechanic (think Megaman) which I define as a spell where you must wait 5 seconds before you can cast a 2x damage fireball. Otherwise a regular 1x damage fireball can be spammed. Very 1980’s arcade like.

It's called Death Proof. Don't know what to think of it yet, but I bet you we'll see it in patch notes a couple of times.

The charge up mechanic is, imo, kind of lame. Especially in that example, because charging reduces your DPS (1 sec for 1x damage, or 5 sec for 2x damage? lol). It basically freezes you in one spot, and you're not doing anything. Once you release the button (if you're not interrupted yet), the enemy you were targetting is already dead because you have allies. Oops?
Besides, as I already stated before; The scrapped Barbarian charge up attack was in practice a bad skill. I don't think they'll even try making another charge skill (except Furious Charge, but that's a different charge :P ).
Diablo is a fast-paced game, to boot, meaning it can be rather awkward to have to stand still to cast a fireball or something.


The newest class added to WOW is the Deathknight which is built around have 3 sets of semi-related cooldown timers. Playing the class is all about managing your cooldowns. I haven’t spent enough time playing that to fully get a feel of it yet. I play a lot of Shaman in WOW which has plenty of 5-6s cooldowns already.

Personally, I hope they don’t get rid of the instant cast/cooldowns for Meteor/Blizzard. Much of the fun of a sorceress is running around spamming instant spells to “kite” monsters. Perhaps it’s a high level skill but adding instant cast/cooldowns at higher levels would make them last longer. Otherwise I can imagine a Barbarian (or monster equivalent) Furious Charging the poor Wizard who will get stunlocked and ww to death before they can teleport away.

I haven't played WoW beyond a 10 hour trial (of which I only used 3 hours), but I am familiar with managing cooldowns. It's slow. If every skill you have has a cooldown, you're forced to either using 15+ skills (which, imo, is ridiculous), or autoattacking. An autoattacking spellcaster often cannot really deal damage, essentially making you useless until your spell timer is over.

As for the instacasting: Just don't use a channeling spell in PvP.
You'll also most likely be able to escape (see also: Slow Time).


“I don't dislike Fury thus far. I said I disliked something from your post, where a character can end up with both Fury and Energy (or Mana) --> "- Classes may end up with both a Mana only, Mana + Rage, or Mana + Energy bar combo." from your initial post.”

They seem to have shown a rage and mana combo bar already in D3 which is why I’m leaving it in my post. I’ve played the WOW Druid which has mana (human form), energy(in car form), and Rage (in bear) form and I think it works ok with different bars. It definitely complicates things and I would not want to start a newbie like my gf on that class. I’ll leave it to Blizzard to manage the interface and art. My strength is in structuring math and written solutions.

They only had Health and Fury, actually.
Oh, and Exp.
A few skills stated Stamina as a resource, but it was just a leftover; Stamina was renamed to Fury.

The difference between your initial post and the WoW druid is that you don't have several resources at the same time (also, I like your enviroment friendly car ;) Typo, perhaps?), I think. Do you constantly change forms in a battle, or do you maintain a form for an X amount of hours?


<quoteSWB>
Fury as a mechanic still annoys me. Just the idea of it seems impossible to balance for varying levels. Situations below:
-Fury dependent on damage dealt vs low level/1hp creatures:- You have near 99% hit chance and high critical chance on them to hit for 50k damage.
- Implications:- I’ll go bang a bunny for 50k overkill when I run low on rage.

-Fury dependent on damage received by enemy (limited by their hp):- If there is an attack of 1000 killer bunnys with 1hp. The Barbarian will never get have enough rage to do any skills at higher levels. Bunnys will overwhelm him as he smacks individual rabbits into pulp one by one as they gang up on him.

-Why have Fury when u have Frenzy (D2 skill)? Same thing. Start slow, hit harder and faster as you go! Its basically 5 stages of rage which you gain by hitting any enemy (including 1hp bunnies). Sorry for the sarcasm but D2 is cool because you fight lots of varying monsters including those that have lots of pets/minions with low hp. Its ok to have lots of low hp skeletons protecting casters because its fun and other D2 classes could deal with them. But Rage is unintuitive because humans only “hit their second wind once/twice” and “needs a couple swings or jog to warm up”.

Perhaps people that played the Barbarian in D3 can comment but the current system Rage system (which looks like the same used in WOW) sucks for D3. I
propose using Frenzy as the mechanic for Rage generation.

If Fury gain is limited by enemy HP, they just shouldn't make low-hp enemies. There's no need for instakill fodder.
And for the bunnies: Use Seismic Slam (the shockwave); It doesn't cost Fury, but has a cooldown.

Fury doesn't increase your R/W and attack speed, though. It gives you a resource for other skills, such as Enrage (which increases Fury gain). It's completely different from Frenzy.
I personally can't recall any high-health enemies in D2, bar bosses. Either everything took 4 hits, or everything died after 1 hit. When a few melees were 'protecting' a spell caster, the spell caster died a lot faster than the melee monsters, because melees had more health.

RawBanana
25-07-2009, 08:20
The charge up mechanic is, imo, kind of lame. Especially in that example, because charging reduces your DPS (1 sec for 1x damage, or 5 sec for 2x damage? lol). It basically freezes you in one spot, and you're not doing anything. Once you release the button (if you're not interrupted yet), the enemy you were targetting is already dead because you have allies. Oops?
Besides, as I already stated before; The scrapped Barbarian charge up attack was in practice a bad skill. I don't think they'll even try making another charge skill (except Furious Charge, but that's a different charge :P ).
Diablo is a fast-paced game, to boot, meaning it can be rather awkward to have to stand still to cast a fireball or something.
For Chargeup, I imagine 4 basic ways to have it work:
1. Active Channel to chargeup- you cannot move and must stand still and not do anything to chargeup your skill before firing a fireball. (most limiting chargegup)
2. Passive immobile charge- you can cast other spells but if you stand still for 5 seconds, you get a bonus to your attack damage (Sniper Training talent in WOW for Hunter class)
3. Mobile active chargeup- You must hold the mouse button down to charge (normally this is autoattack) and it charges up your fireball. You can still walk around but you cannot attack with any skills until you release your charged up fireball
4. Mobile Passive chargeup- You can move and cast any spells other than lightning spells. If you don’t cast any lightning spells for 5 seconds, your next lightning spell gets 2x damage.

Overall timing of how long to charge can vary. 5 seconds was good for WOW. Maybe 2-3 seconds is more appropriate for fast paced D3.

I think overuse of chargeup skills is definitely a pace killer but I’m not convinced that you can’t have 1 chargeup skill in every tree or a chargeup focused tree that makes playing d3 more fun.
I haven't played WoW beyond a 10 hour trial (of which I only used 3 hours), but I am familiar with managing cooldowns. It's slow. If every skill you have has a cooldown, you're forced to either using 15+ skills (which, imo, is ridiculous), or autoattacking. An autoattacking spellcaster often cannot really deal damage, essentially making you useless until your spell timer is over.

As for the instacasting: Just don't use a channeling spell in PvP.
You'll also most likely be able to escape (see also: Slow Time).
Yeah… Well WOW is just slow compared to D3. Noting my previous examples of stacking cooldowns with instants as a way to improve DPS, its an additional way of adding skill and playstyles to D3. Definitely not the only one.

Diablo series as a whole is definitely a game focused on Instant cast spells/skills! I haven’t played the Diablo-clones but I imagine they are slower and have more casting spells. All other ways to cast like cast-time, cooldown, and channel must be carefully applied or you will kill the pace.

But to a certain extent, you should let the player choose. I remember a Hydra/Frozen Orb Sorc wasn’t bad to play. Both skills were 2 second cooldowns but you run around inbetween cooldowns and its ok. Not the fastest character to play but viable.

But this brings me to 2 trees which I tried to theme in my skill trees. I’m not sure if anyone noticed:
1. Lightning Tree is a tree with a focus on passive mobile chargeups (#4 above in Chargupes). It’s meant to be a support tree where its very mana efficient and damage efficient if you can wait 5seconds before casting your lightning spell. In the meantime, it is more efficient to melee or shoot arrows or cast other spells.
2. Rogue Tree is a tree with a focus on cast-time for melee with what I call the Ambush. Perhaps like the Barbarian charge-skill in its earlier forms. You must cast for 1second before running over and stabbing them for 3x damage. Upper levels will allow you to stab multiple enemies and teleport to stab. Similar to the Assassin skills but more focused on getting a good hard first hit.
The difference between your initial post and the WoW druid is that you don't have several resources at the same time (also, I like your enviroment friendly car Typo, perhaps?), I think. Do you constantly change forms in a battle, or do you maintain a form for an X amount of hours?
Druid Cat form. Typo corrected.

The current Druid is built to change forms a lot. Form changing is instant and permanent. You can change directly to other forms too. Cost is mana based and ~40% of your mana pool depending on your skills/talents.

Especially for the PVP people, you often start with ranged casting spells or sneak in with ambushes in Cat form. Then as you take damage, you will cast a heal over time (HOT) spell on yourself before changing to Bear form. Bear form has high health and high armor.

Druids are very hard to kill because they can heal and have tanking forms. But they don’t have much DPS ability either. Personally, I like it because remembering all your options is fun and in a group, if you think a little, there is always a way you can contribute no matter how many tanks/healers/dps mix you have in the group.

Early WOW versions of the Druid sucked. You can’t change from bear to cat directly, you must change to human first. Which is a waste of time and inefficient mana wise. Also mana did not originally regenerate in bear/cat form. Which means lots of downtime after each fight. This is just to give an example of how much can change can happen even after the game is released.
If Fury gain is limited by enemy HP, they just shouldn't make low-hp enemies. There's no need for instakill fodder.
And for the bunnies: Use Seismic Slam (the shockwave); It doesn't cost Fury, but has a cooldown.
Really? Even on the wiki it doesn’t say that it has a cooldown. I thought I saw places in the Trailer where they did Seismic Slam twice in a row. But this is a beta anyways. I think it would be really more fun to have some cooldowns into each class. Also so Barbarians who are very Rage dependent have something they can do if they don’t have enough rage yet.

As for the instakill fodder. I don’t like 1hp enemies. That is stupid. But low hp enemies like casters or the little annoying guys in Act 3 D2 don’t have much hitpoints. If you ww through them, you can often kill a few without draining enough mana based on your manaleech.

I’m also not sure how fury will work on destructables. Like doors who had mana/life to leech. Pots and shelfs are 1 hit obviously. But having special enemies like Ghosts which have no mana to drain are annoying for many classes. But this is part of the game. Similarly maybe there are blobs of slime which generate no rage for barbarians. Hehe. Just speculating…

SlechtWeerBeer
25-07-2009, 13:45
For Chargeup, I imagine 4 basic ways to have it work:
1. Active Channel to chargeup- you cannot move and must stand still and not do anything to chargeup your skill before firing a fireball. (most limiting chargegup)
2. Passive immobile charge- you can cast other spells but if you stand still for 5 seconds, you get a bonus to your attack damage (Sniper Training talent in WOW for Hunter class)
3. Mobile active chargeup- You must hold the mouse button down to charge (normally this is autoattack) and it charges up your fireball. You can still walk around but you cannot attack with any skills until you release your charged up fireball
4. Mobile Passive chargeup- You can move and cast any spells other than lightning spells. If you don’t cast any lightning spells for 5 seconds, your next lightning spell gets 2x damage.

Overall timing of how long to charge can vary. 5 seconds was good for WOW. Maybe 2-3 seconds is more appropriate for fast paced D3.


Interesting ideas. How would they work with FCR, though? Would they have a full effect, partial effect or no effect at all on charging? It was quite a big part of D2 spellcasting to get a ton of FCR to spam your brains out on massive damage spells.


Yeah… Well WOW is just slow compared to D3. Noting my previous examples of stacking cooldowns with instants as a way to improve DPS, its an additional way of adding skill and playstyles to D3. Definitely not the only one.

Diablo series as a whole is definitely a game focused on Instant cast spells/skills! I haven’t played the Diablo-clones but I imagine they are slower and have more casting spells. All other ways to cast like cast-time, cooldown, and channel must be carefully applied or you will kill the pace.

But to a certain extent, you should let the player choose. I remember a Hydra/Frozen Orb Sorc wasn’t bad to play. Both skills were 2 second cooldowns but you run around inbetween cooldowns and its ok. Not the fastest character to play but viable.

I remember seeing Guild Wars called a Diablo clone. That gave me a decent giggle, since GW is about team based slaughter, with non-DPS classes etc (WoW setup, but with everyone in the party taking damage and much less pure tanking).
Back to topic: FO has a 1 second timer. I never really minded timers, but I personally always had at least 1 skill that was untimered.
Fury essentially creates cooldowns on fury-based skills. However, skills that cost 1 Fury orb/ball/charge/thinggummywots can refill that orb immediatly (more on that later).


But this brings me to 2 trees which I tried to theme in my skill trees. I’m not sure if anyone noticed:
1. Lightning Tree is a tree with a focus on passive mobile chargeups (#4 above in Chargupes). It’s meant to be a support tree where its very mana efficient and damage efficient if you can wait 5seconds before casting your lightning spell. In the meantime, it is more efficient to melee or shoot arrows or cast other spells.
2. Rogue Tree is a tree with a focus on cast-time for melee with what I call the Ambush. Perhaps like the Barbarian charge-skill in its earlier forms. You must cast for 1second before running over and stabbing them for 3x damage. Upper levels will allow you to stab multiple enemies and teleport to stab. Similar to the Assassin skills but more focused on getting a good hard first hit.

The Lightn spells given are mainly instant casts, some weapon buffs, Damage/interval (Thunderstorm), and the 20s/+50% buff, right? Not much passive charging.
The rogue tree could be interesting, but kind of awkward in solo use I think. Whenever you stand still, you're just being a pincushion for ranged attackers, and monsters with charge (Vipers :( ) will happily interrupt that skill of yours. That's the main problem I see with cast times etc.
It does seem to be excellent against bosses, if the Siegebreaker is a good example. It was often rather slow (recovery, or beating down thin air). That gives you time to charge.

<Druids in WoW; preserving page length>

Don't really like shapeshifting/Haven't played Druid in WoW, so I'll pass the ball on this one.


Really? Even on the wiki it doesn’t say that it has a cooldown. I thought I saw places in the Trailer where they did Seismic Slam twice in a row. But this is a beta anyways. I think it would be really more fun to have some cooldowns into each class. Also so Barbarians who are very Rage dependent have something they can do if they don’t have enough rage yet.

The wiki is completely supported by mere humans (wait, does the wiki work for you?); sometimes information can be inaccurate. During the Blizzcon or whichever they talked about skills, and the cooldown on Seismic did float up at some point.
Other than that: I wouldn't mind some cooldown based skills on the Barbarian, for the same reasons really. 'Just' attacking is boring.


As for the instakill fodder. I don’t like 1hp enemies. That is stupid. But low hp enemies like casters or the little annoying guys in Act 3 D2 don’t have much hitpoints. If you ww through them, you can often kill a few without draining enough mana based on your manaleech.

I’m also not sure how fury will work on destructables. Like doors who had mana/life to leech. Pots and shelfs are 1 hit obviously. But having special enemies like Ghosts which have no mana to drain are annoying for many classes. But this is part of the game. Similarly maybe there are blobs of slime which generate no rage for barbarians. Hehe. Just speculating…

Granted. But D2 was rather out of balance anyhow. The fetishes (little annoying blowdart guys I think you were thinking of) couldn't really hurt you if you had 75 Psn resist, but the Gloams can insta you if you have 75 Lightn resist.

The D3 team confirmed that mana/life leech is gone in D3, so Ghosts w/o mana to leech are irrelevant :P
I think you get Fury from destructibles, too, but nothing really significant. Only time will tell.

RawBanana
26-07-2009, 06:54
Interesting ideas. How would they work with FCR, though? Would they have a full effect, partial effect or no effect at all on charging? It was quite a big part of D2 spellcasting to get a ton of FCR to spam your brains out on massive damage spells.
I see no reason why it shouldn’t work with FCR. Starting at 5-6seconds gives plenty of room to cut down to 1-2second charge assuming 200%FCR. Even 1 second of passive charging would be noticeable because most spells in D2 cast so fast (.5 seconds or so? I don’t remember the frame rates). If it worked with FCR, more skill points would have to go to increasing its +Damage though. If FCR didn’t work on it, more skill points could also increase its chargeup speed.

The Lightn spells given are mainly instant casts, some weapon buffs, Damage/interval (Thunderstorm), and the 20s/+50% buff, right? Not much passive charging.
Well its kind of hidden in the Elite batch of skills in Lightning Tree. Chargeup- seems to be a very key skill in this tree because it makes all your lightning skills hit 50% harder if you wait the 5s. Great for multi specs going into this tree. Probably should move this to a lower Tier.

One thing I never got around to doing yet is balancing the trees based on damage. My vision was always to have damage go according:
1. Fire Tree (100% of max damage)
2. Martial Tree (85% of max damage)
3. Lightning Tree (80% of max damage)
4. Ranger Tree (70% of max damage)
5. Shadow Tree (65% of max damage)
6. Ice Tree (60% of max damage)
7. Divine Tree (50% of max damage)

That is, if a the same amount of points were put into each tree, this would be the damage expected. Fire Tree has lots of channels/casts which make survivability hard and justifies its higher dps. Martial tree is limited to melee. Lightning tree is flexible but expected to be expensive mana-wise. Shadow/Ice tree either has seeking spells or lots of CC. Divine tree is a defensive tree and not meant to be offensive to start.

NOTE: I just realized I forgot to put in the Martial Tree and Ranger Tree. I’ve added it now. Please take a look.
The rogue tree could be interesting, but kind of awkward in solo use I think. Whenever you stand still, you're just being a pincushion for ranged attackers, and monsters with charge (Vipers ) will happily interrupt that skill of yours. That's the main problem I see with cast times etc.
It does seem to be excellent against bosses, if the Siegebreaker is a good example. It was often rather slow (recovery, or beating down thin air). That gives you time to charge.
Cool. Yeah that is why cast time is only 1s. Not too long I hope. But with their teleport ability, I expect them to easily find a spot to cast their ambush with Kiling Spree to do lots of dmg very quickly.
Don't really like shapeshifting/Haven't played Druid in WoW, so I'll pass the ball on this one.
One thing to note is that I like to play the Shaman and Druid in WOW. 2 of the most unpopular classes. Primarily because they are hard to play. They heal/dps/tank. Which is great because I play with my gf and I need to adapt to whatever our 2 man team needs.

But its unpopular because its harder to play and it tends not to be the top DPS/Healer/Tank in the game. But all my designs are based around flexibility and variety of builds. Which may not be what the typical D3 fan wants. Oh well. This is why I post here and need feedback.
Other than that: I wouldn't mind some cooldown based skills on the Barbarian, for the same reasons really. 'Just' attacking is boring.
Autoattack sucks. I agree. Its why I give upper level skill points the “Free Basic/Advanced Attack” so you “autoattack” becomes much more interesting. :)
Granted. But D2 was rather out of balance anyhow. The fetishes (little annoying blowdart guys I think you were thinking of) couldn't really hurt you if you had 75 Psn resist, but the Gloams can insta you if you have 75 Lightn resist.
Yeah. But you gotta leave in the variety of monsters. WOW has those too. Some worms that burrow around all the time and you can’t attack it until it happens to sneak up below you. Bad for casters obviously. Although AOE works better in Diablo. Very few ranged AOE in WOW.