View Full Version : Brainstorming: Shape-Shifter Class
Well, after some success in the Geomancer department I thought it's high time we try to think of another interesting potential (expansion) char.
And I've seen some people talking about an EXTREME Shape-Shifter (SS) char.
What are your thoughts about that?
Can SS really hold a whole char?
Should SS be only SOME of the char (like D2 Druid)?
Should it be organized so you'd have 3 forms, 1 for each Tree?
How many Shapes can you Shift too?
And what about Semi- SS (only head/hands/tail etc)?
It's been a while since we had an interesting discussion (excpet for the racial one going on right now), so I've just been wondering...
commonhumans
20-07-2009, 05:57
I am skeptical of a shape shifter class... i am skeptical because Shape Shifter classes (at least in the past) have been highly hybrid focused -- You take a certain form to do a certain task... making you able to do TONS of stuff, but not really great at anything.
I dunno. If there was a shape shifting class I would like to see each tree be a certain animal/creature and the skill built off of/around that.
This is def worth exploring, though in my gut i am fairly positive a SS class wouldn't show up in core d3... but in a d3 exp, it's totally beyond plausible.
Technomancer
20-07-2009, 05:59
I don't really think shapeshifting could make an entire character. I personally have a hard time seeing it as even the primary skill, but that's just me. I'm not gung-ho about SS, but I'd give a whirl or two.
If you were gonna go all in, you could have a master form for each tree in tier 1, then the rest of the tree would be augmentations and abilities that can only be used in that form. I think it would be a lot better if someone COULD be a shapeshifter within the class instead of REQUIRING it, which is what that approach would do. You could maybe devote 2 trees to 2 different forms and have a 3rd with non-SS based skills.
The semi-SS idea is pretty good. You could go 1, 2, or 3 trees with that and it not be too constraining. You could optionally have a tier 4 skill that would be a full transformation, but then you would be stuck with semi-SS skills in that tree, otherwise you could mix and match.
One thing I've seen around that I think would be a bad idea is having a dozen or more forms. That would be overkill and I don't think any one form could be done justice. You obviously need at least 2 forms, but 3-6 could be managable. More than that would be too diluted and none of them could really be all that great or convey any real character.
[EDIT]: Another thing is that the forms don't HAVE to be animal forms. They could be elemental forms (as I've mentioned elsewhere), angelic, demonic, and/or spirit forms, or mythical creatures, even mythical creatures that are complete inventions within the D2 universe.
theeliminator
20-07-2009, 08:41
Personally I like the idea of a SS. Let me run some ideas by you guys
Like I posted on the Geomancer, you could have a tree devoted to Simi- SS. You could have his arms change into different weapons or even monster body parts. (like a snake for an arm)
I have another idea for a tree, it would just be a tree with mostly passive skills. (like the Amazon passive and magic tree in D2) The first skill in this tree could be Copy. A spell in which you take the shape of whomever you cast the spell on. Now I know what you’re thinking "how will you know who you are in a mob” it’s really not hard to make your "copy" stand out from the others with color or highlights.
Lastly you could have a Tree that’s about 2 forms (much like how the Druids was)
Well, let's see:
1. I hope SS will show up in D3 Core. It's just too awesome.
2. The problem with Semi-SS is graphic. Will you have a Bear head sitting on a WD body? Not to mention you run out of Semi stuff pretty quickly- You have head, tail, hands and?
3. The problem with 1 form for each Tree is repetitive skills. I mean, what kind of skills can you have in an Animal form? Fast attacks, some kind of AeO punch and some kind of Shout skills. And ofc, as Techno said, the fact that you don't have any Non-SS skills.
4. Angelic/Demonic/Mythical Shapes are interesting... Any Shapes suggestions?
5. Making the SS skill in Tier 4 is problematic, since, as you said, you'll be left with a pretty weak, un-focused SS which can hardly be called SS focused char.
I think the 2 Shapes for 2 Trees and 1 Non-SS Tree is the way to go.
Any skills/shapes ideas?
paperkut
20-07-2009, 14:39
One idea for the demonic shape could be something similar to the vampire-werewolf hybrid (http://media.photobucket.com/image/underworld%20michael%20corvin%20vampire/Lost17years/Quizzes/underworld-hybrid.jpg) from the Underworld movies (Michael was his name I believe).
Speed, strength, claws, and vampire-like abilities.
Can SS really hold a whole char?
Sure. In theory, it's possible. I just wonder how one should implement this? If you want to make one whole class about shape shifting, you want to cover the whole aspect. You want ranged, mele and magic fighting. For me, this means you need a humanoid shaft, resulting in problems.
Both demonic and angelic are out of the question. Human are going to be neutral in the battle (it's almost certain). Other option would be to created some sort of other humanoid yet this doesn't seem interesting to many.
And note that you simply create the shift as a character instead of making it a shift.
This is assuming you can only have one form per class. You could have more yet they will be mutually exclusive. (and yes, I know many don't agree)
Should SS be only SOME of the char (like D2 Druid)?
I believe this to be the easiest way. Combine an unique way of mele fighting with some simply magic with totally different aspects of the game. Much easier then a full shape shifter and more interesting too if you ask me.
Should it be organized so you'd have 3 forms, 1 for each Tree?
I believe it's best to have one or two forms, which both have the same function. Kind of like how the druid did things in DII. Both forms are mele yet are different in the way they function (or that's how it should be, in DII, it's more about what skill they have rather then how they play).
How many Shapes can you Shift too?
I believe people will always focus in one shifts, so eventhough they could shift into more forms, I don't really see point in having them. It's good to offer some choice, yet more then 2 or 3 largely using the same skills just doesn't work.
And what about Semi- SS (only head/hands/tail etc)?
Seem like a forced way to have some shape shifting.
I really don't like the idea and don't see the need for this.
Pyrohemia
20-07-2009, 19:56
To me a shapeshifter would have many different forms. One skill tree would have solely skills that give you different forms. You could have a variety of different sizes and shapes of animals to change into and each has different benefits. Each form would have completely different attack animations. For example, a turtle versus a tiger versus a bat. I am not sure what the other two skill trees would provide. Maybe one could be special melee skills that can be used in your shapeshifted form and the other spells to cast in shapeshifted form.
--------------------------
I have a better idea. Each skill tree is a blend of shapes and attacks and spells to use while in those shapes. The different skill trees would be distinguished by flying shapes versus ground animals versus partially humanoid (ie. walks on two legs like a Diablo 2 werewolf/werebear). Flying forms would be more about casting spells from the air compared to melee fighting. Humanoid forms would be able to swing with normal weapons and wear normal armor but with enhanced speed or strength. This would be Bears wearing armor and carrying axes etc. The ground animal forms would be about biting and clawing and the special form would encompass the armor and weapons; disguising them like a Diablo 2 werewolf or werebear.
I believe this to be the easiest way. Combine an unique way of mele fighting with some simply magic with totally different aspects of the game. Much easier then a full shape shifter and more interesting too if you ask me.
I believe it's best to have one or two forms, which both have the same function. Kind of like how the druid did things in DII. Both forms are mele yet are different in the way they function (or that's how it should be, in DII, it's more about what skill they have rather then how they play).
The only problem I see with the "2 Shapes+ focus on non SS skills" build that it's not a distingtive char- Exactly like the Druid was in D2. Without his SS skills he was a mix between the Necro and the Sorc. Cute, but..boring, may I say? This made him a nice expansion char, but with no real attraction.
A full extreme SS char would be the exact opposite, introducing us with a very new and exciting aspect, rather than a mix of classes with 1/3 creativity.
sirroman
22-07-2009, 08:10
I really don't like to make propaganda, but I believe Shapeshifters "have" to be hybrids and I kind of made a SS class ().
Why it have to be "hybrid"? First of all, what you would call a FULL extreme SS? a character which have only different forms?
The problem is: it would be like a paladin with only "self-only auras" (different shapes). Or a Barbarian with only offensive skills (no, no spells! Just attacks! Warcries are spells! Zip!).
And yet, we need a class that you CAN spread the skill points and not "choose one tree and stick with it".
And yet, we need a class that we can create not-so-common builds with it, like the necromancer, which had the golems (yeah, they were weak but what counts is the idea) and the poison spells (only three!). The barbarian had the dual-wield "mini-tree" (three-four skills, if I remember). And even the sorcerer had the enchant skill, letting people create melee sorcerers!
You know, in D2 people stick with "one or two" skills and the rest are just to special times, but... they are there and you can cast them instantly! If the SS have to "change back" and then change the form again, it just kills the fun.
So, the best "extreme" SS would be one that give you freedom to wander around the skills, playing with different "forms" even if you have one "preferred" and yet, the "single use skills" (Like the WW Barb that sometimes changed to berserk to kill PI) also have the "shape-shifting feel".
That's why I defend that the SS should change only partially and if there're "werewolf" forms (full-body) you can't have 30 different skills that are for JUST THAT FORM! It would be a waste.
So, mostly the SS skills should single use, or 2~4 different forms with a lot of passives, IMO.
So... If you are asking why I said I didn't like to make propaganda, click: here to see my shapeshifting class (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=731443). Just take a look and say if you agree or not.
I was thinking that the Shapeshifter could have a tree for common skills (or just random skills scattered throughout the tree) that the Shapeshifter could use even when in his/her human form, but get modified to do something else when he/she is in a certain form.
Take for example "Generic Attack Skill"
Generic Attack Skill deals your base attack damage +150%, making it a solid attack skill for your untransformed shapeshifter.
But when he transforms using "Bag of Rocks" your shapeshifter turns into a bag of rocks! When he uses Generic Attack Skill as a bag of rocks, Generic attack skill changes to have a chance for crushing blow/stun/knockback (something like that, I'm just throwing ideas out there, balance be damned).
So then let's say the Shapeshifter transforms into a Vampire, Generic Attack Skill now does it's basic damage bonus, but it also has a good chunk of life steal tacked onto it.
So then we can look at this another way, form-specific skills that have a bigger bonus when used as a Form X, but still have a unique function when you're Form Y.
I think having non SS skills like this, so that they're intertwined with the SS would give enough variety to the Shapeshifter to not be overwhelming, but still feel like you had some choice (As opposed to being a vampire, so you HAVE to max your SS skill, Vampire Bite, and [Other exclusively vampire-ey skill here])
As far as partial Shapeshifting, I think it would be sort of lame to be putting points into one skill for legs, one skill for arms, one skill for a head, things like that. It could be nice for customization and making the shapeshifter feel like he/she is a Shapeshifting class, and not just an amalgam of others with some quirky spells thrown in.
But i'd be afraid that it would constrict the player by forcing him/her to max out whatever would end up being the most useful endgame semi-SS skills. So points in a single skill would only help that one body part.
Though, that depends on how everything's lain out with skill trees and all.
What I'm going to say about Semi-SS is mainly that I feel that they shouldn't be treated as being parts of a grand whole, (IE:maxing out the "Demon tree" So you end up with beefed up pitlord arms, diablo head, Duriel legs, and whatever else)
Because then that pressures the player into shoving all his/her points into this whole "Suit of Parts" so they've no freedom beyond it.
I think it'd be more fun overall if Semi-SS would just function as a momentary buff (perhaps one that synergizes [not necessarily actual synergy, but you know what I mean] with actual shapeshifting spells) that could work as a situational thing "Look at that army of monsters , I'mma pop on Arms of Explodifying"
Hmm I'm actually not so sure about semi-SS at all, really just trying to dispense some thoughts I had about it.
What about skill runes? Could they possibly work with shapeshifting skills? IE: Hydra rune in the "Lizardman transform" skill would make the player turn into a...hydra?
Anyway, to cap off this rambling text I'll toss out some possible Shape-shifting forms:
-Elemental
-Vampire
-Centaur
-Tikbalang(from Filipino folklore, basically a reverse of a centaur, man's body with a horse's head, but it also has obscenely long arms and some other weird crap)
-Lizardmen/Nagas
-Birdmen, not like Harvey, but basically just giant birds with human limbs--screw talons.
-Some kind of Abyssal, enigmatic summoner fellow (Grim reaper maybe?) But not like necromantic summoning, he just calls forth beings of shadow and gloom from the Netherworld or something else that sounds cool, but the summoning could just be some passive aura associated with him or be a part of his regular attack (but said shadow beings would either have to be quite weak or have a pitifully short life span for this to be balanced)
Technomancer
23-07-2009, 02:09
Hmm, something else I thought of that could go well with a SS style class would be unarmed combat. Traditionally people think of a Monk type class when it comes to not using weapons, but a SS would be perfect too. Full or semi-SS characters could easily have their own "weapons" instead of just doing a graphics trick where you're still attacking with a sword, etc., you just don't see it. I'm not sure on the exact mechanics, but it'd be a good opportunity to try new ideas. There could also be class specific weapons, like talons, that only work when shape-shifted. Obviously, using traditional weapons should be allowed too, just give an additional option.
I had thought that having a flying character wouldn't be doable, but now I think it actually could. There could be a wealth of active and passive skills utilizing it. The main problem is being able to freely fly over obstacles, but that could just be stopped and only give the range of movement that land-based characters would have. It wouldn't be perfect, but I've seen it done that way in a variety of games.
That Tikbalang sounds cool! I've never heard of that! I guess it would be similar too horse-head from Zelda, but would be cooler and creepier.
sirroman
23-07-2009, 09:04
I was thinking that the Shapeshifter could have a tree for common skills (or just random skills scattered throughout the tree) that the Shapeshifter could use even when in his/her human form, but get modified to do something else when he/she is in a certain form.
Take for example "Generic Attack Skill"
Generic Attack Skill deals your base attack damage +150%, making it a solid attack skill for your untransformed shapeshifter.
But when he transforms using "Bag of Rocks" your shapeshifter turns into a bag of rocks! When he uses Generic Attack Skill as a bag of rocks, Generic attack skill changes to have a chance for crushing blow/stun/knockback (something like that, I'm just throwing ideas out there, balance be damned).
So then let's say the Shapeshifter transforms into a Vampire, Generic Attack Skill now does it's basic damage bonus, but it also has a good chunk of life steal tacked onto it.
So then we can look at this another way, form-specific skills that have a bigger bonus when used as a Form X, but still have a unique function when you're Form Y.
I think having non SS skills like this, so that they're intertwined with the SS would give enough variety to the Shapeshifter to not be overwhelming, but still feel like you had some choice (As opposed to being a vampire, so you HAVE to max your SS skill, Vampire Bite, and [Other exclusively vampire-ey skill here])
As far as partial Shapeshifting, I think it would be sort of lame to be putting points into one skill for legs, one skill for arms, one skill for a head, things like that. It could be nice for customization and making the shapeshifter feel like he/she is a Shapeshifting class, and not just an amalgam of others with some quirky spells thrown in.
But i'd be afraid that it would constrict the player by forcing him/her to max out whatever would end up being the most useful endgame semi-SS skills. So points in a single skill would only help that one body part.
Though, that depends on how everything's lain out with skill trees and all.
What I'm going to say about Semi-SS is mainly that I feel that they shouldn't be treated as being parts of a grand whole, (IE:maxing out the "Demon tree" So you end up with beefed up pitlord arms, diablo head, Duriel legs, and whatever else)
Because then that pressures the player into shoving all his/her points into this whole "Suit of Parts" so they've no freedom beyond it.
I think it'd be more fun overall if Semi-SS would just function as a momentary buff (perhaps one that synergizes [not necessarily actual synergy, but you know what I mean] with actual shapeshifting spells) that could work as a situational thing "Look at that army of monsters , I'mma pop on Arms of Explodifying"
Hmm I'm actually not so sure about semi-SS at all, really just trying to dispense some thoughts I had about it.
What about skill runes? Could they possibly work with shapeshifting skills? IE: Hydra rune in the "Lizardman transform" skill would make the player turn into a...hydra?
Anyway, to cap off this rambling text I'll toss out some possible Shape-shifting forms:
-Elemental
-Vampire
-Centaur
-Tikbalang(from Filipino folklore, basically a reverse of a centaur, man's body with a horse's head, but it also has obscenely long arms and some other weird crap)
-Lizardmen/Nagas
-Birdmen, not like Harvey, but basically just giant birds with human limbs--screw talons.
-Some kind of Abyssal, enigmatic summoner fellow (Grim reaper maybe?) But not like necromantic summoning, he just calls forth beings of shadow and gloom from the Netherworld or something else that sounds cool, but the summoning could just be some passive aura associated with him or be a part of his regular attack (but said shadow beings would either have to be quite weak or have a pitifully short life span for this to be balanced)
When I say "hybrid SS" i'm not defending the arm/legs/head/torso approach (that's bad and wouldn't work like it "should", IMO) . I'm defending the exact approach you said, the "momentary buff" and the "use this skill in ANY form you are".
But I REALLY liked your "this skills is slightly different with that form". Imagine the customization when you add that and the rune system! HOLY S*** THAT WOULD BE AWESOME! =DDD
Oh! And 'bout tikbalang: FLASH BOMBA!!! (http://www.cracked.com/article_17514_6-most-baffling-superheroes-from-around-world.html) (I still believe eat-man is the most awesome superheroe ever created in the universe, ever!).
@ technomancer: I don't like the unarmed approach and if the "new-SS" is unarmed it would be lame, IMO.
Well... it *could* work, but then Blizzard would create a class that would be detached from half of the economy! And what 'bout drops? "DA**! I got this kick a** sword... but I'm 'new-SS'!"...
Instead of putting a flying skill on my SS-bard, I instead when with the "jumping" approach because I also thought that flying capabilities would be too difficult to implement in a good way: why make everything "not-perfect" if you can be "perfect" without just one thing?
theeliminator
23-07-2009, 21:56
@ technomancer: I don't like the unarmed approach and if the "new-SS" is unarmed it would be lame, IMO.
Well... it *could* work, but then Blizzard would create a class that would be detached from half of the economy! And what 'bout drops? "DA**! I got this kick a** sword... but I'm 'new-SS'!"...
This isn't really that big of a deal, all they would have to do is put in a special type of weapon for that class. Bracers would work fine, or heck if they didn't want to do that they could just say your spell even transforms the gear you wear and you still get the bonus from that gear.
lunarleif
24-07-2009, 04:07
I have another idea for a tree, it would just be a tree with mostly passive skills.
A tree with passive skills sounds absolutely lame. I'm not even going to waste my time going into reasons.
I think it would be neat to partially transform into different creatures and mix and match. Give yourself a basic armor profile, two hands, feet, legs, arms, main body structure, and head. Then be able to modify your genetics and change yourself. Problem = That's what prototype did. Solution = Transform those parts into those of animals, mythic creatures, etc.
You could have a shapeshift that works like Frenzy whereby you gradually change and build up powers of speed and damage or even a build up of elemental type damage as you attack.Actually if you had the shapeshift initiated by attack it would allow you to get right into the action instead of having to step back and shapeshift,kinda streamlining it.
lunarleif
24-07-2009, 05:43
Almost like a morph attack kavlor? You attack then morph? Come to think of it, it would be cool to shift forms when you attack to explain the attack, increase damage, etc. Passives would add on to what you morphed adding on attacks.
Technomancer
24-07-2009, 07:25
Kavlor, I think that's the best SS idea I've heard yet! What I think would be better is if the shifting worked more like the Barbs new Fury (Furry? lol!), where when attacking, the shifting becomes more and more complete. I guess it's just a semantic difference, I'm not really suggesting a new energy type, but that's not out of the question (Bloodlust?). You could either have a particular SS skill active which is what you would turn into when attacking, or you could have certain skills tied to a specific form, and when you use any of them, you gradually transform into that form.
You might need a new energy form actually. When you attack, the bulbs fill up and each bulb that fills completely is a new, more complete stage of transformation. You could stay in that form until your "Bloodlust" bulbs drained completely down from not attacking. If you switched to skills that don't match that form, you would revert to human form and would need to re-morph through attacking. I guess skills would use Bloodlust too, but that could interfere with shape-shifting. You could also call it Lycanthropy instead of Bloodlust.
sirroman
24-07-2009, 09:50
This isn't really that big of a deal, all they would have to do is put in a special type of weapon for that class. Bracers would work fine, or heck if they didn't want to do that they could just say your spell even transforms the gear you wear and you still get the bonus from that gear.
I like de D2's Druid approach, "merging" the gear.
Creating one type of weapon just for that class wouldn't solve the problem. And IIRC Blizz won't make any class-specific gear in D3.
@lunarleif: it would be half of the approach of the Druidic Bard, when you use the skill you grow momentarily claws, horns, whatever, and attack, and then they fade.
@ kavlor & technomancer: For Background reasons this system would work better if you were, like, stealing something from the enemy (if there were a vampire class, for example) or if you were entering a special "state", i.e. "furious".
And if you are changing by attacking you aren't using a new "energy type", just... changing with each attack, you are "building up your form" and D2 had "something like that" with the orbs on some skills (werebear just pops in my head, can't recall the name of the attack though), it would be just a new artistic direction. That could actually work!
Or you are thinking 'bout building the energy and then using the skill to shapeshift slightly? That I didn't like. =/
WAIT! WAIT! NOW I GOT IT! =DDD
I just had this idea to use for a "shapeshifting energy". It's the idea you guys had, but with a twist. Read on, please.
There're some "balls" that fill with each attack, like the barbarian fury. But differently from the Fury, when you fill one ball you automatically change part of your character. When you fill everything, you are in a "full animal form".
Then there're some skills that use this shapeshifting energy (like the barbarian fury) BUT when you use "one ball" you automatically change partially back.
It's like you used your shapeshifting power to make a "massive burst" that tires you so much that you can't keep up with a "full animal form". You must then charge up your energy again.
Lore-wise it would be a SS-class that shapeshift only "when she needs" because her "alternative form" take time to happen and makes her exhausted.
You could also have a "alternative cost" where you pay some health OR some huge amount of mana to get into your "full animal form" or to use any "massive burst" SS-skill.
What do you guys think? It's slightly different from yours idea, right?
Technomancer
24-07-2009, 10:45
@ kavlor & technomancer: For Background reasons this system would work better if you were, like, stealing something from the enemy (if there were a vampire class, for example) or if you were entering a special "state", i.e. "furious".
That's exactly what Bloodlust would be.
Or you are thinking 'bout building the energy and then using the skill to shapeshift slightly? That I didn't like. =/
Nope.
There're some "balls" that fill with each attack, like the barbarian fury. But differently from the Fury, when you fill one ball you automatically change part of your character. When you fill everything, you are in a "full animal form".
Swap "change one part at a time" with "change everything a little at a time", and that's basically what I just said.
Then there're some skills that use this shapeshifting energy (like the barbarian fury) BUT when you use "one ball" you automatically change partially back.
It's like you used your shapeshifting power to make a "massive burst" that tires you so much that you can't keep up with a "full animal form". You must then charge up your energy again.
That occurred to me too at the end, but I wasn't sure if that would be a plus or minus. I think it makes sense though now that I think about it more. That could work pretty well.
Lore-wise it would be a SS-class that shapeshift only "when she needs" because her "alternative form" take time to happen and makes her exhausted.
My natural inclination would be that the shifting can only take place when in a certain state, like a more dynamic "Incredible Hulk". "Don't make me angry, you won't like me when I'm angry..." :steam::yes:
What do you guys think? It's slightly different from yours idea, right?
Not much, just additional ideas.
Knight_Wolf
24-07-2009, 18:48
For me, this means you need a humanoid shaft, resulting in problems.
Both demonic and angelic are out of the question. Human are going to be neutral in the battle (it's almost certain).
No they aren't out of question ... angelic maybe are ... but demonic are still possible according to current Diablo 3 lore.
We saw the cultists summon a demon in D3 and it posses people and .... SHAPESHIFTS them into a mutated evil looking creature ... it sure goes bersek and all but what if some mage is able to use that demons ability to posesee humans on himself yet he keeps his mind sane by using some magic spell or something so he gains the power of the demon and stays self-aware (unllike the poor fellows used in the demo) .. it could very well work.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet, we need a class that you CAN spread the skill points and not "choose one tree and stick with it".
That will only happen if the SS forms are quite similar (like the Druid in D2) ... if they do have a distinctive role each it will actually yhe only class that gets points distributed among all its skills (since it's like three characters in one)
If one form can counter magic well and another good vs melee and anoither can use weapons in new crazy ways then people will invest in all three of them ... SS class is all about versatility in my book.
You know, in D2 people stick with "one or two" skills and the rest are just to special times, but... they are there and you can cast them instantly! If the SS have to "change back" and then change the form again, it just kills the fun.
There could be a skill that allows you to switch from one active from to another without returning to your original form ... but it uses mana more mana than if you did it the normal way -> (change back to human->transform into other form).
Also if the original form does have it's own set of useful skills (that's one thing they got right about the druid) then it's ok to switch back to it when the need arises or when you are low on mana.
So, the best "extreme" SS would be one that give you freedom to wander around the skills, playing with different "forms" even if you have one "preferred" and yet, the "single use skills" (Like the WW Barb that sometimes changed to berserk to kill PI) also have the "shape-shifting feel".
WW doesn't change the Barb attributes or characteristics .... so it has nothing to do with shape shifting ... more like a different combat stance (i.e in versus games like Soul Calibur some characters can switch combat stance to allwo for a new set of moves to be used .. but it ain't shape shifting cause their statistics stay the same).
--------------------------------------------------------
Well, let's see:
1. I hope SS will show up in D3 Core. It's just too awesome.
ME too, it has lots of potential if done right ... they got close with the Druid .. but there is still lots of room for improvement (i.e unlike the Necro for example which they considered perfect or near perfect)
2. The problem with Semi-SS is graphic. Will you have a Bear head sitting on a WD body? Not to mention you run out of Semi stuff pretty quickly- You have head, tail, hands and?
Actually the problem with partial SS is that it feels like a normal skill but with elaborate graphics ... in my mind true SS class is about a character capable of drastic shifts in its attributes and characteristics to serve differernt roles depending on the situation just like shape shifting is used in fantasy stories (i.e you need to fly and spy on enemies from a distance turn into a crow ... want to assassinate the enemies leader between his men turn into a huge hedgehog and roll throw them then transform into a bear and slash him out ... etc etc).
3. The problem with 1 form for each Tree is repetitive skills. I mean, what kind of skills can you have in an Animal form? Fast attacks, some kind of AeO punch and some kind of Shout skills. And ofc, as Techno said, the fact that you don't have any Non-SS skills.
Why did you assume that ... the skills can be extremely varied and drastically differernt from one form to another .... it all depends on what role each form has to serve or what was it designed for (defensive magic form, melee assault form, fast ranged stealthy form), not to mention original form can have a set of skills too.
4. Angelic/Demonic/Mythical Shapes are interesting... Any Shapes suggestions?
I think the only ones possible are the Demonic and Mytical forms .. as demons can possess people and transform them (as we saw in the gameplay demo) .... and mysical forms can be tied with a little effort to Diablo lore ... but i don't think Angelic forms are possible.
As for Demons ... they can be anything ... not to mention use weapons as well .... it will the most interesting choice if the chose a human who gets possessed by a couple of demons which gives him various forms (some of which could use weapons and other which can't but make it up for that by having lots of varied skills.
5. Making the SS skill in Tier 4 is problematic, since, as you said, you'll be left with a pretty weak, un-focused SS which can hardly be called SS focused char.
I think the 2 Shapes for 2 Trees and 1 Non-SS Tree is the way to go.
Any skills/shapes ideas?
I do agree after a little thinking (i was thinking 3 SS trees would be best), it came to my mind that the normal form does need a set of skills for itself too ... so a non SS tree is indeed a must plus the two full SS trees filled with skills that enhance the forms attributes and skills they use in combat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Like i told NASE at the beginning of my reply ... demonic form would be the best way to go IMO .... and i see the best candidates are the Vizjerei mages (or the last survivors of them who were hiding in silence waiting for the demons to reappear) .. they loved to summon demons and toy with them .. so they are surely the most versed people regarding this .... not to mention in their human forms they are mages capable of magic combat so the original form still does have lots of potential too.
Not to mention they would fill the slot of anti-heroes very well since they are out to kill, torture and capture demons, experiment and toy with them not to save the world.
They would have:
Darkness or Vizjerei tree:for dark magic, curses, buffs that increase transformation duration or allow to switch from one form to another directly, leech mana, summon some imp minions .. i.e slave demons, .... etc etc).
Transforming gives the mage +HP, more damage, an increase in various stats, more resistance ... etc etc.
The skinner:first demon form, capable of moving a lot faster than the mage, has skills for melee combat via curved sharp claws, has some fast but weak ranged skills like acid spit that slows enemies and does damage to them, a powerful but slow attack that leeches some HP from enemies, besides the skills that enhance it's attributes .. i.e passives and how long that mage can stay in that form without losing his sanity ... etc etc) .. it its high tier skills it has a berserker skill that allows it to move way faster, increases it's attack rating and damage but also does self-damage to the skinner body (usually 5-10% of the damge it is dishing out).
The Trickster:second demon form, harder to maintain since demon is more intelligent than skinner and will attempt to take over the mage mind consistently, but is a very powerful mid ranged fighter that can use long range tentacles for various long/mid range single target and AoE attacks .. not to mention has lots of escaping or illusion skills and passives) .. at its high tier skills it has a skill that allows it to eat weapons and gear (literally devour them) and gain a temp boost in attributes depending on the item they ate .
--------------------------------------------------------
that's just a quick idea on the SS class .. i will probably make a detailed topic on it if i had enough time XD
We saw the cultists summon a demon in D3 and it posses people and .... SHAPESHIFTS them into a mutated evil looking creature ... it sure goes bersek and all but what if some mage is able to use that demons ability to posesee humans on himself yet he keeps his mind sane by using some magic spell or something so he gains the power of the demon and stays self-aware (unllike the poor fellows used in the demo) .. it could very well work.
Cultist aren't neutral.
Knight_Wolf
25-07-2009, 14:21
Cultist aren't neutral.
Sigh, it isn't about neutral or not neutral ... cultists ARE humans who serve demons and do their bidding (that's why they summon demons, that's why they are used as sacrifices for the summon and that's why demons can possess them).
http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/world/bestiary/darkcultists.xml
I have been feverishly researching those demon-enthralled cultists
They surely got deformed over time because of their evil practices but if you read the lore they are just humans and part of the war between angels and demons to rally humans to their side.
The whole point wasn't even the cultists .... the point was that demons can possess humans and deform them ... someone with enough magical capability could use that ability to serve his own needs .. i don't see what does that have to do with the cultists being neutral or whatever.
Sigh, it isn't about neutral or not neutral ... cultists ARE humans who serve demons and do their bidding (that's why they summon demons, that's why they are used as sacrifices for the summon and that's why demons can possess them).
They still are evil. And it's only logic they have skills like that.
Our hero's on the other hand aren't evil (hell alignment) and aren't good (heaven alignment). They just are.
They still are evil. And it's only logic they have skills like that.
Our hero's on the other hand aren't evil (hell alignment) and aren't good (heaven alignment). They just are.
Well, just because the cultists want to wield demonic power (Okay ,they seem to dedicate themselves to bringing Hell to sanctuary, but let me illustrate) doesn't mean they can't use the power in a neutral way.
If I kill my foe and use his sword does that make me the same as my foe? No. I'm just using his weapon, Probably because it's better than my own.
By the same token, A shapeshifter who morphs into a demon isn't necessarily out to slay his human brethren, he's just choosing to fight fire with fire, and his magical prowess allows him to do just that.
Maybe he'll be corrupted and go the path of The Summoner from D2, but who gives a damn, that's Diablo IV's problem.
Knight_Wolf
25-07-2009, 16:00
They still are evil. And it's only logic they have skills like that.
Our hero's on the other hand aren't evil (hell alignment) and aren't good (heaven alignment). They just are.
Yeah the cultists are evil, but that has nothing to do with the demons ability to possess them that's an ability demons have .... and as we can see the summoning and possession has to be done by a willing human .. cultists offer human sacrifices to do that .. powerful Vizjerei mages had their own ways too for summoning demons (which is already part of Diablo lore).
Our shape shifting hero (who might be a Vizjerei mage) isn't evil in that sense .. nor is he aligned with hell or heaven .. i remember i already said according to Diablo lore Vizjerei mages were powerful, arrogant and loved to summon demons to experiment and toy with them ... that clearly shows they aren't aligned with any side .. yet in some sense they are twisted and dark (a.k.a anti-heroes).
And again that has no relation or effect on the FACT the demons can possess them (or at least try to if the Vizjerei let them do it) just like they possess cultists regardless of alignment.
Technomancer
26-07-2009, 04:13
I don't really see why to change into demonic or semi-demonic forms requires being possessed by demonic spirits. I think that causes all sorts of story and alignment problems. And yes, being possessed by demons IS going to have an adverse affect on one's morality and motivations. That's what caused the Sin War and all the events of D2. I was thinking the shifter just mimics demonic forms, not actually become a demon, which is what the possession method is.
If it's just treated as a normal shift, assuming the D2 Druid wasn't actually possessed by wolf and bear spirits, then there's no problem with angelic forms. I think it could be wild to have a character that could do both. How's that? 2 angelic forms and 2 demonic forms?
Again, I think the "Possession" idea is unwise and completely unnecessary to take demonic forms.
Well, just because the cultists want to wield demonic power (Okay ,they seem to dedicate themselves to bringing Hell to sanctuary, but let me illustrate) doesn't mean they can't use the power in a neutral way.
If I kill my foe and use his sword does that make me the same as my foe? No. I'm just using his weapon, Probably because it's better than my own.
By the same token, A shapeshifter who morphs into a demon isn't necessarily out to slay his human brethren, he's just choosing to fight fire with fire, and his magical prowess allows him to do just that.
Maybe he'll be corrupted and go the path of The Summoner from D2, but who gives a damn, that's Diablo IV's problem.
I believe the morality system is much more black and white (or perhaps magenta, cyan and yellow are better here to represent the 3 factions, heaven, human and hell), in sanctuary.
I believe the morality system is much more black and white (or perhaps magenta, cyan and yellow are better here to represent the 3 factions, heaven, human and hell), in sanctuary.
So they have to shapeshift into neutral forms because Bad things are Baad so they're not allowed to be anything other than Baad?
Yes.
Eventhough they may not look bad at first, in the end, they have to be bad somehow.
Which is why I said:
Maybe he'll be corrupted and go the path of The Summoner from D2, but who gives a damn, that's Diablo IV's problem.
Remember? The Summoner? The guy in the Arcane Sanctuary? When you asked around town peeps was all like "Blah blah blah mage trying to wield demonic power blah blah corrupted him horribly."
Let me say just one thing:
Knight_Wolf, I LOVE your idea.
A Vizjerei mage, whose attempts to wield Demonic powers had a reverse effect, giving him the ability to SS to/be Possesed by Demons. Dedicating his life to fight evil maybe for absolution or to find some kind of cure (?). The Lore fits perfectly ^^
Now for some other stuff:
1. You're right. Extreme SS doesn't have to result in repetitive skills. I thought about 3 Forms that have skills that cover ALL battle types (melee, range, fast). And by that, ofc, a character that focuses on 1 Form only. Making the SS char use multiple Forms, each focuses on different aspect is different and better, after thinking it through.
2. I fail to see the problem with having a Demonic Possesion char. Can you explain the problem you're discussing on?
3. The only problem I see with K_W idea is that I'm missing a Form. You have to Big Bad Melee Form and the Range Form. I'm feeling there REALLY should be another one- a Fast & Furious Form, prehaps.
4. Oh, and another thing about the Vizjerei mage idea. Maybe it doesn't fit the Lore as good, but I would like much better if it was a Holy man, being possesed by Demons. That just makes him more characteristic interesting, gives his 1 Non-SS Tree some cool Angelic skills, and most of all- Give us some kind of replacement for out beloved Paldain.
GunPowderScarrab
27-07-2009, 19:41
i could imagine a guy-half spider like a centaur with a spider abdomen and legs. it would let you do extra pison damamge or something
I've thought of another big problem for the SS char- The Lore.
I mean, D2's Druid already used the traditional "Woodsman who's able to tranform into the animals he spent his life with". What other kind of background can justify SS?
Maybe it's just me, but the only other option I see is K_W: Being Possesed unwillingly by Demonic forces.
Knight_Wolf
30-07-2009, 19:13
Maybe it's just me, but the only other option I see is K_W: Being Possesed unwillingly by Demonic forces.
Or willingly if you have enough arcane knowledge about demons (like Vizjerei mages) to control the demon possessing you and prevent it from taking over your mind completely while using its powers in combat for your own needs XD
Unwillingly just provides much more interesting char (personality-wise).
Although willingly can be nice too. All of the townsfolks you'll speak to will hate you and think you're nothing better than a Demon yourself. Can be interesting.
Anyone played Lands of Lore: Guardians of Destiny in it the main character had an affliction that caused him to sometimes turn into one of 2 things.One was a big beast creature that had huge strength and life but little magic then a lizard like form that had more magic but was very weak physically.I can see some of the ideas match this aspect.
Technomancer
01-08-2009, 01:42
Now that I think about it, the possession thing kind of reminds me of Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow on GBA, for anyone that's played it. In it, the main character has the power to utilize monster powers, and while at the end, he's pretty messed up, basically he's a partial reincarnation of Dracula, he is still himself. I love that game!
That said, given the Diablo lore, I still think this is not a very sustainable ability, but to each his own.
Very interesting ideas from knight wolf and others. They seem very close to ideas I had when the whole issue of the validity of a demonic character came up a few months back. I had some notes I wrote up back then and I'll post them when I get off work.
I do agree with the poster that said the most interesting possibility of a demonic character would not include possession and I think that can be accomplished by remembering the origins of the human race on sanctuary. They are the descendants of both angels and demons and so they have been given powers we would consider "demonic" as a birthright. It would just take someone willing to delve into that very dark part of their soul to learn to harness such powers.
Tritonus
04-08-2009, 01:24
I posted this in the Alchemist class thread as well:
I find it amazing that no one has mentioned the obvious sources of inspiration from classic literature and famous myths and historical people for the character of the alchemist.
I read in some other thread that the reason that Blizzard can't use a placeholder model for the 5th class is possibly due to the fact that the character is changing appearance and the skills are based off of that. That might point in the direction of a shapeshifter. Now we know Blizzard has stated that there won't be any other classes than the Barbarian making it into DIII, so if the 5th class is a shape shifter and it's not going to be a druid, what is it?
It's The Alchemist of course. Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde anyone?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_Case_of_Dr_Jekyll_and_Mr_Hyde
If Blizzard takes this approach to the alchemist, I think there's potential for the most interesting character that DIII is going to get. It's also the perfect character lore for a hybrid that can do Magical potions, transform to do melee, and heal a bit.
Dedicate the 1st skill tree to the shapeshifting potion (the Mr. Hyde potion) where each skill point is an ingredient in the potion, altering the traits and appearance of "Mr. Hyde" / the shapeshifter. Melee combat skills, strength, vitality, agility and intellect altering skills all go here.
2nd tree should be dedicated to combat potions: Healing potions, mana potions, explosive potions with fire, poison, acid and ice, invisibility potions, invulnerability potions and so on. You get the picture.
3rd tree should be about creating different beneficial items for use in combat and in general progress of the game, such as creating weapons, armor, turning metals into silver and gold and ultimately, the Philosopher's Stone.
Basically, this third tree should take inspiration in Nicolas Flamel, an actual alchemist who lived in the 14th century and now a myth since he was the alleged creator of the Philosopher's Stone and is said to have achieved immortality this way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Flamel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosopher%27s_stone
Maybe the philosopher's stone could be an equip able item that could be used to heal friendly people and turn enemies into gold. I mean, how cool would that be, turning an entire room of baddies into a room of golden statues?
Blizzard even has this kind of alchemist I described here lined out in their own Warcraft III: Frozen Throne hero, the Alchemist. His skills include the Healing spray (defensive potions / healing powers of philosopher's stone), Acid bomb (offensive potions), Chemical rage (Mr. Hyde!) and Transmutation (turning enemies into gold)
The only potential problem with this is the fact that the Which Doctor has a bunch of offensive potions in his arsenal. Blizzard just have to come to their senses and remove that from the which doctor and create this awesome character that is the Alchemist Jekyll/Hyde style equipped with the philosopher's stone.
Technomancer
04-08-2009, 02:47
I do agree with the poster that said the most interesting possibility of a demonic character would not include possession and I think that can be accomplished by remembering the origins of the human race on sanctuary. They are the descendants of both angels and demons and so they have been given powers we would consider "demonic" as a birthright. It would just take someone willing to delve into that very dark part of their soul to learn to harness such powers.
That is very feasible, because with the destruction of the Worldstone, the latent Nephalic powers of mankind may very well start to reveal themselves in coming generations. They also may be permanently drained away, but we just don't know yet.
@Tritonus: That is a good idea and would be really original for Diablo. SS is readily associated with mystical or nature based powers, even by me, but there's no reason why the affects couldn't be created through completely man-made methods.
Ok, my ideas are posted (as long winded as they are).
The Shadowknight class (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=735228) contains 4 forms all within one of the three trees and meant to fill different strategic roles. The use of cool-down timers longer then the maximum transformation duration for each form ensures deliberate choices on the part of the player to maximize the classes' destructive ability:evil2: Another important distinction is that the different forms have specific characteristics that change gameplay but all the skills of the class, form all three trees, are able to be used in any form.
What do you all think? Does this solve some of the problems? Create new ones?
Tritonus
05-08-2009, 02:05
@Tritonus: That is a good idea and would be really original for Diablo. SS is readily associated with mystical or nature based powers, even by me, but there's no reason why the affects couldn't be created through completely man-made methods.
Exactly what I thought. Sort of like the humans being tired of being used and pushed around, and taking matters into their own hands, creating the impossible without it being given to them by the Heavens or Hell. It would be a breath of fresh air lore wise and there to show that 20 years has passed in the world of Sanctuary since last time.
I posted this in the Alchemist class thread as well:
I find it amazing that no one has mentioned the obvious sources of inspiration from classic literature and famous myths and historical people for the character of the alchemist.
I read in some other thread that the reason that Blizzard can't use a placeholder model for the 5th class is possibly due to the fact that the character is changing appearance and the skills are based off of that. That might point in the direction of a shapeshifter. Now we know Blizzard has stated that there won't be any other classes than the Barbarian making it into DIII, so if the 5th class is a shape shifter and it's not going to be a druid, what is it?
It's The Alchemist of course. Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde anyone?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_Case_of_Dr_Jekyll_and_Mr_Hyde
If Blizzard takes this approach to the alchemist, I think there's potential for the most interesting character that DIII is going to get. It's also the perfect character lore for a hybrid that can do Magical potions, transform to do melee, and heal a bit.
Dedicate the 1st skill tree to the shapeshifting potion (the Mr. Hyde potion) where each skill point is an ingredient in the potion, altering the traits and appearance of "Mr. Hyde" / the shapeshifter. Melee combat skills, strength, vitality, agility and intellect altering skills all go here.
2nd tree should be dedicated to combat potions: Healing potions, mana potions, explosive potions with fire, poison, acid and ice, invisibility potions, invulnerability potions and so on. You get the picture.
3rd tree should be about creating different beneficial items for use in combat and in general progress of the game, such as creating weapons, armor, turning metals into silver and gold and ultimately, the Philosopher's Stone.
Basically, this third tree should take inspiration in Nicolas Flamel, an actual alchemist who lived in the 14th century and now a myth since he was the alleged creator of the Philosopher's Stone and is said to have achieved immortality this way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Flamel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosopher%27s_stone
Maybe the philosopher's stone could be an equip able item that could be used to heal friendly people and turn enemies into gold. I mean, how cool would that be, turning an entire room of baddies into a room of golden statues?
Blizzard even has this kind of alchemist I described here lined out in their own Warcraft III: Frozen Throne hero, the Alchemist. His skills include the Healing spray (defensive potions / healing powers of philosopher's stone), Acid bomb (offensive potions), Chemical rage (Mr. Hyde!) and Transmutation (turning enemies into gold)
The only potential problem with this is the fact that the Which Doctor has a bunch of offensive potions in his arsenal. Blizzard just have to come to their senses and remove that from the which doctor and create this awesome character that is the Alchemist Jekyll/Hyde style equipped with the philosopher's stone.
Although I'm a bit offended by your hi jacking, I must say I like the idea.
Not the char idea, but the ShapeShifting idea. Good Job!
The only problem I see is that the whole Alchemist char will probably won't appear in D3 since, as you said, it resembles the WD just too much.
So I guess we still only have the Demonic Possesion SS idea..=s
Tritonus
09-08-2009, 02:58
Hi jacking? Elaborate please.
This was a joke=/
Damn internet. How can I get along without sarcastic tone?
P.S
I've read ALL of "5th char can't use a place holder" thread, and I must say SS sounds by far the best solution for this puzzle. So SS becomes a real possibility for the next chars, which only makes our discussion interesting.
If only Demonic SS is possible as we've come to realised (Lore-wise) so is this the 5th char we desperartly waiting for?
Tritonus
09-08-2009, 18:07
Ah okay, Yeah, getting sarcastic jokes across in text can be a ***** ;)
Hi!
For me, demonic SS would be breaking the lore. There area already enemies that are possessed by daemons. They are the bad guys, not the good guys. And the "you are the rare exception" is pretty meh as there can be game fullo of these guys running around and around 1/5 of the whole palyerbase.
As for alchemist in WC3, it's compleatly different world and alchemist isin't really SS. He just goes into a rage and grabs 2 blades from his back. Tho i must say that there is an alchemist in D2 and that would be Alkor or what his face is. The one in Act 3 that can give you the HP potion. Still, SS as an alchemist is a far fetched idea. If you ask me it's more of an enraged state than shapeshift.
For SS i'd like to see druid but with a twist around from the D2. Instead of an complete transformation, there would be partial shapes. Example: There would be skill Maul that transformed his hands for bears hands when he hits. For this class the trees could be melee(spahe things), summon(animals) and passive stuff. Best passives could be some sort of passive / long lasting buffs for example Bears strength, wich would give you bonus str/melee damage.
For my option i see few disadvantages and the biggest one would be that the game already has a character that uses summons. This would be melee summoner and WD is caster summoner so they are different, but as in D2 it would be most likely an expansion character.
Tho for now thinking it a bit it could be partial shapeshift / ranged (bow) / passives class called Ranger or something.
I'm not saying that there can't be SS class in D3 as there most likely will be light armored melee/raged and i think the other spot is pretty open. I guess we all can just hope that they will reveal the 2 missing classes in Blizzcon and one of them is SS class. :)
theeliminator
10-08-2009, 02:45
Come on Lazer you got 5 pages of ideas can't you make a class yet? =P
Come on Lazer you got 5 pages of ideas can't you make a class yet? =P
LOL :crazyeyes:
I have ideas, but they being turned down one by one:
1. Alchemist SS- Most likely won't appear since any Alechmist feels too similar to the WD.
2. Angelic SS- Meh. Too cheesy.
3. Patrial SS- It's cute but it's not really SS, as it simply spells that graphicly changes you appearance.
4. Druidic SS- D2 already stole this idea!
I've said (I think) in the beggining that I probably narrow minded, so, yes- I still don't have ANY char idea except for the Demonic Possesion/Control one.
That is why I humbly come to you (:
For me, demonic SS would be breaking the lore. There area already enemies that are possessed by daemons. They are the bad guys, not the good guys. And the "you are the rare exception" is pretty meh as there can be game fullo of these guys running around and around 1/5 of the whole palyerbase.
You and NASE both don't think a "demonic" char would work :) and I agree you are absolutely right based upon Earth's theology but Sanctuary presents a totally different set of rules. Read the back story I wrote for the Shadowknight and tell me if you don't think that would be a viable explanation for a "good guy" to posses such abilities.
Hi!
You and NASE both don't think a "demonic" char would work :) and I agree you are absolutely right based upon Earth's theology but Sanctuary presents a totally different set of rules. Read the back story I wrote for the Shadowknight and tell me if you don't think that would be a viable explanation for a "good guy" to posses such abilities.
Gotta say i must eat some of my words. It seems that it woudl fit lore. The system also seems pretty solid, but what i got thinking is the CD on shapeshifting. Is the SS ment to be something that you have 50% of the time on or more/less? Does one SS trigger the CD of other SS?
My thoughts were that each form would have its own cool down timer that is not influenced by the others. I want the class to be a true shapeshift class so maybe starting with 60% of the time in one of the forms and that increasing to about 85% with passives.
When making the specific numbers I would have to remember that just because you have a form available (cool down time is up) you might not want to use it. You might not want to use the defensive form and sacrifice killing speed if you don't need the protection.
I would weigh the allowed times heavier on the offensive side because those will be prob be the most useful, especially as you near endgame.
Hi!
My thoughts were that each form would have its own cool down timer that is not influenced by the others. I want the class to be a true shapeshift class so maybe starting with 60% of the time in one of the forms and that increasing to about 85% with passives.
When making the specific numbers I would have to remember that just because you have a form available (cool down time is up) you might not want to use it. You might not want to use the defensive form and sacrifice killing speed if you don't need the protection.
I would weigh the allowed times heavier on the offensive side because those will be prob be the most useful, especially as you near endgame.
So you mean 85% with 4 SS? This sounds a bit... restricting or something. Let's say the skills had 100 second cd and 20 use time. This would end 80% of the time in SS if you use all of them. But in most times you woldn't need all of them. Explecially if you focus on something that works better with other forms. Problem is that they could end up like Avenging Wrath for paladins in wow. (30% more damage, but you can't bubble if you have used it) The problem with AW is that you end up saving it all the time except in boss fights where you can use it usually only once.
Most likely person would like to use a certain buff all the time. To make it easyer to balance, it's a good thing to restrict this. If you could keep these on all the time it would most likely water them down to nothing as they would basically be passive buffs. What i would want from these if i would play the class is the use in normal situations and in boss fights. If it has longer than 1 minute CD it's pretty nuisance as you would be carefull not to use it on a time when monsters are all dead and i have nothing to use it on.
All in all this is a hard thing to balance out to be effective and fun to use. If you make it too much like stance dancing, alot of people will hate it. Too short timers and you will have to spam it all the time and too long ones make it so that you will save it up too much. :)
This time around i think blizzard will take somewhat same route than with WoW that not a single talent can double your damage. This either means disadvantages whilst getting bonuses or long cooldowns. Tho we gotta remember that this is ARPG and we gotta have that A supported really well. :)
Technomancer
11-08-2009, 03:02
In general, I think the demonic SS idea *IS* pretty cool, but having it be "possession" based seems completely redundant and adds a lot of ethical/logical problems with absolutely no benefits. Angelic and Demonic blood flows through the veins of all people in Sanctuary, and with the destruction of the Worldstone, the development of powers to re-tap some of those latent energies is entirely possible. I guess the idea would be something of a neo-nephalem shape-shifter. Perhaps make it more of an Angel/Demon hybrid. Not like an angelic form and a demonic form, but forms that each are some sort of blending of the two, or maybe mixing individual traits of the two.
That, or go the mad science/alchemy Jekyll/Hyde and Vincent Valentine from Final Fantasy VII route. Other ideas can work too, but I feel those two are most original and, to me exciting, possibilities.
You and NASE both don't think a "demonic" char would work :) and I agree you are absolutely right based upon Earth's theology but Sanctuary presents a totally different set of rules. Read the back story I wrote for the Shadowknight and tell me if you don't think that would be a viable explanation for a "good guy" to posses such abilities.
So fine, you have found a nice lore explanation, something I never claimed to be impossible, just not invented yet. Up until now.
But that doesn't take away the problem of how the other heroes will react to the character. Imagine yourself fighting the war in Afghanistan. In the middle of the fight, you hear someone approaching you from behind. And you see a men dressed in desert cloths (like the local Afghani/Iraqi) with the face of bin laden himself.
What would you do?
I imagine my amazons to do the same as most people would do. Slay the son of a *****. The same would happen with your character if it were up to me.
Hi!
Gotta say i must eat some of my words. It seems that it woudl fit lore. The system also seems pretty solid, but what i got thinking is the CD on shapeshifting. Is the SS ment to be something that you have 50% of the time on or more/less? Does one SS trigger the CD of other SS?
Am I the only one thinking of NO Cooldowns?
Just make staying in the form cost Mana.
This allows much easier SS and diversity among the different forms and makes the player SS only in battles (and stay in his normal form between) which is actually what I'm hoping for.
(I just imagine a normal guy walking in some dungen, spoting some skellys, jump towards them, SS while mid air to some crazy beast and start crushing their bones :jig:)
That could be a very good option Lazer. My only concern would be that it would be very difficult to balance the forms such that 95% of the time people chose the same form. I think these would be the issues that would have to be teased out during balancing and could go either way. Maybe a mana cost in addition to lax cool down timers.
Hi!
Am I the only one thinking of NO Cooldowns?
Just make staying in the form cost Mana.
This allows much easier SS and diversity among the different forms and makes the player SS only in battles (and stay in his normal form between) which is actually what I'm hoping for.
(I just imagine a normal guy walking in some dungen, spoting some skellys, jump towards them, SS while mid air to some crazy beast and start crushing their bones :jig:)
I didin't say in that post that i didin't want them to be staying up all the time. :) Tho i think it is bad for the forms to stay up all the time if the form can use all the attacking skills. To gain great benefit from these forms one must have disadvantages or they can't be used all the time. I think that the forms should be something that you put on and notice clearly that you got boosted up. I don't want any 8% chance to do 10% extra aoe damage. In the end that doesen't help at all in most situations. One restriction would also be that they can't be used at the same time but thats pretty much given.
OFC as you said they could cost mana for using them like 2 mana / second. I think it's not compleatly bad choise, but if the game has any kind of manaleech these "costs" would not mean anything.
In D2 the forms gace you the ability to use the skills. In this system the basic skills would be used all the time and you boost them with these SS forms.
Maybe thse skills could have their own kind of resource? Daemonic tap or something. You could have like 4 points and one point would let you use the skill for certain time and you could use the same one again after it ends if you have points left. The points would have cooldown to balance them out.
So fine, you have found a nice lore explanation, something I never claimed to be impossible, just not invented yet. Up until now.
It was the same explination I was writing about eight months ago in that long post where we went back and forth ;)
However, I do understand your objection based upon how a party of heroes would respond and it is a valid one. But I see that as a minor roleplaying contradiction and not really a disqualifier, something like the male barbarian being the actual one from D2 and yet having 3 of them in your party. Or even having all our heroes outside the rogue camp slaughtering each other instead of hunting down the dark wanderer.
The issue with a "demonic" character like the one described above could be explained by his party members just being aware of his abilities and his mutual goals of helping humanity. Yes, the explanation is a bit strained but not to the point of concern. At least not for me. There are lots of roleplaying inconsistencies that we willingly sacrifice to have an exciting game.
Hi!
I have changed my wievs quite alot about the lore and how the characters would take these half daemons to their side. Remember that Necromancer used daemons and skeletons to do his bidding. Also i would guess blood golem looks a bit repulsive too. :) As most people in the lore do have the same daemon living inside of them would most likely make them understand this better or deny it compleatly.
One problem with this is that it sould fill the weirdball slot compleatly. I'm pretty certain that there will be a class that uses physical ranged attacks so it takes the other solot and it most likely can do melee damage also with other specs. Maybe this class could just fill the hole that is paladin. I admit that this is not the same as paladin and not eaven close.
I think that people should hurry up and put new stuff on the table if they have something as Blizzcon is coming soon and i'm thinking they might just reveal some classes! :)
Yeah, I saw this class as filling the role of an orderly physical melee sword and board, as compared to the chaotic barbarian, as well as a shapeshifter.
For the other unknown slot I am pretty sure we will see a physical damage ranged fighter. Others have proposed a ranged/stealth melee hybrid but personally I hope we get a class that is primarily a strong archer. Do away with things like strafe and multishot for more high damage single target attacks and splash damage for crowd control.
It was the same explination I was writing about eight months ago in that long post where we went back and forth ;)
Euh, oeps....
I have changed my wievs quite alot about the lore and how the characters would take these half daemons to their side. Remember that Necromancer used daemons and skeletons to do his bidding.
It's not completely the same. All the necromancer did was force his will on the bones of the fallen monsters (demon, undead and animal all the same) as well as force his will to complete slain mosters (again demons, undead and animals all the same).
So if you look at it, there is noting demonic about it. It's a bit grouse and out of the normal, but not demonic. If most of his skills would only work demons, then perhaps. Or if he would summon demons out of thin air. But he doesn't do those things, all he does is force his will on dead things. Not something specific for demons if you ask me.
And blood golem isn't really demonic. Do you know of a demon that uses the same or similar skill? I don't, making it a simply grouse skill that has no direct link with demons.
For the other unknown slot I am pretty sure we will see a physical damage ranged fighter. Others have proposed a ranged/stealth melee hybrid but personally I hope we get a class that is primarily a strong archer. Do away with things like strafe and multishot for more high damage single target attacks and splash damage for crowd control.
Why can't you combine the two? All you need for a strong archer is one tree.
Why can't you combine the two? All you need for a strong archer is one tree.
Mostly just being nervous about having more of a hybrid "jack of all trades" being a reason to limit the power of the ranged skills. Probably an unfounded worry based on other RPGs where every character is given all of a classes skills and they have to balance based upon that.
We don't want to bias the drop system into only giving you items you want or can use, it would be a trading and economic killer. We want to encourage trading and encourage people to see worth in items even if they can't use them - give them to friends, use them for other characters, sell them, trade them, etc.
Along those lines but somewhat off-topic we do now have some restrictions on weapon types usable by each class. It's been part of the game for a while now. Allowing every class to use every weapon type was actually going to require a huge amount of time and effort and it would have meant cutting out or cutting into other features. We evaluated really how often people would want to have their class holding a weapon type that (traditionally) contradicted their class-style versus that work going in to other features - specifically having a lot more skills and a lot more skill-rune effects. We made the obvious choice which is making sure there are a ton of awesome skills and rune effects to choose from.
Because I can see the conclusions being jumped to RIGHT NOW in my old cranium - let me state that weapon types do not dictate stats. At least not wholly (barbarians can't use staves so there's no point in allowing fury related stats on them). We understand that the game is about variation, customization, and experimentation in class builds. We're not World of Warcraft, we're not looking to make weapon stats "optimal" for the types and classes that will use them. Which is to say, we're not going to put specific stats in specific amounts on each weapon of a specific type because we're making assumptions about what each class wants out of their stats. We want variation, and experimentation, and all that good stuff. These restrictions don't affect those goals, it really just means you probably won't see a wizard lugging around a two-handed axe. Kind of a bummer, but then think about what it affords us to work on with more and better looking skills, a more robust rune-skill system, etc. We want to spend our time and effort on what makes sense to making the game better.
It's already old news, I know. But how might this affect shapeshifting?
My guess is that if we see a shapeshifter, that it will be diablo II style where we won't see the weapon as that would take way to much develop time.
I was thinking this as obvious for the simple reason of developing time.
Sure, twinking each weapon to suit for each form could be very awesome, but dude- That's a lot of work. Especially if we're talking about more the 2 forms.
I think we've come a long way designing our Shape-Shifter. If I may be bold, I can even say we can build one pretty perfectly- lore, balancing and forms included.
However, I'm actually still hoping for more SS (Lore) ideas. 'Cause as far as I see it we really have only 1: Demonic. And that means that in the likely (at least IMO) event of including an SS char in the 5, it will be a Demonic one. Which actually means-
We know what the 4/5 th char will be ^^
mepersoner
13-08-2009, 19:56
Blargh, wrote up a huge detailed post and it was lost... here's a quickie with a slightly modified example of a D2 druid as what I'd go for.
Quick background:
The Druids and the Barbarians separate and go their own separate ways to prepare for the battle against Hell. The Druids develop their oneness with nature over time and the greatest of the Druids are the Shapeshifters, as they are so in tune with nature they shift to be a part of it. Post the Worldstone being destroyed the Barbarian society breaks down and the Barbarians become lost nomads. The Shapeshifters, direct decendents of the Barbarian shamans, embark on a quest to reunite the Barbarian clans along with the Druids for the final battle against Hell.
Shapeshifting abilities: Wolf (AR,Faster attack), Bear (Damage, Defense), Falcon (Faster cast rate, more mana), Tree - "Ent'ish" - (Life, Physical and Magical Damage Reduction), Lizard (Elemental resistances and life regeneration). Past druid shapeshifting abilities useable by all shifted forms. Synergize - Passive abilitie that if you dump points into, gives a greater and greater portion of one forms abilities to the others. Nature's resistances: Damage reductions and resistances while shifting (not shifted).
Summoning and elemental abilities get "bonuses" based on what form you're in. Ravens while in falcon form can peck additional items or healing orbs from bodies. Wolves attack faster when you're in wolf form. Spirits' auras add additional stuff depending on your form. Armageddon could drop fire more often as a wolf, do more physical damage as a bear, have a larger AoE as a falcon, impacts could block ranged attacks as a weretree and block spells as a Lizard, etc.
Hopefully, you guys get the idea.
We, or at least I, do get the idea.
However, Blizzard has already announced that there will be no returning chars, so that means the Druid is absolutly out.
But this post made me wonder about 2 things:
1. Would you be disappointed (as I would) if the SS would have Bear and Wolf forms? (Do I need to explain why? Well, O.K- unoriginality).
2. How can a Falcon/any type of flying thing form be handled? I mean, it sounds like it would be very difficult designing, just for the simple fact that it flies, instead of walks.
mepersoner
13-08-2009, 20:45
1) I wouldn't mind as long as they weren't the only forms... plus they really could've been done better, especially graphically.
2) Good point, of course a half-man/half-falcon doesn't necessarily have to fly, and I believe something similar was originally planned for D2.
I want to see a shapeshifter with a lot of forms. At least 5. I think you should be shifting all the time to utilize different aspects of the different forms. I'd like to see combos pulled off like cheetah shift -> sprint -> bear shift -> slam attack repeat. Have that sort of act like a paladin charge skill where the bear slam causes knockback and you want to shift into a cheetah to run up before the knockback gives your foe much of a chance to escape.
The problem of course is that to be really effective you'll want to be a jack of all trades and have all your forms and skills available. However, then you get to the point where the shape shifter does a lot of things well but nothing great. Which is fine with me. I think that it should be combos and strategy that make the character great. Sure if you want just a tank then you focus on a couple of forms and max out their points.
I think it could be a great class given enough diversity.
I don't see demonic SS as completely breaking the lore... what breaks the lore is demonic SS without angelic SS. Diablo puts forth a rather simple Demons vs Angels with humans in the middle picture, so heaven and hell should be treated equally.
Since animalistic SS was already done in D2, to me that only leaves these options. My idea is the priest. One skill tree is basic casting, one demonic, and one angelic. The key is to make sure the class is not in one SS form always, making 2 of 3 trees useless. I think this is best done by having some sort of charge-up skills, where the priest fights in human form for so long, and then unleashes them by morphing into an angel/demon for a limited amount of time (with better skills), before starting over. You can specialize in doing more damage while SS'd (angelic//demoinc trees), or spending less time in human form by charging up quicker (casting tree).
I don't see demonic SS as completelybreaking the lore... what breaks the lore is demonic SS without angelic SS. Diablo puts forth a rather
simple Demons vs Angels with humans in the middle picture, so heaven and hell should be treated equally.
I don't really agree here. I mean we have already seen the Paladin, the champion of beliefs passed down by an archangel. His powers came from one side. The whole religion of Zakahrum (sp?) Was based upon the angelic.
A "demonic" character would just get his powers from studying the other side of his heritage.
I think this is best done by having some sort of charge-up skills, where the priest fights in human form for so long, and then unleashes them by morphing into an angel/demon for a limited amount of time (with better skills), before starting over. You can specialize in doing more damage while SS'd (angelic//demoinc trees), or spending less time in human form by charging up quicker (casting tree).
I do like these ideas of how to deal with transformation. Especially the last part about needing to decide if you want to be more powerful in a form or if you want to be in that form longer.
Knight_Wolf
15-08-2009, 19:50
For some reason this guy from the official artwork shown here gives me a demonic SS mage vibe.
http://i25.tinypic.com/2e2edti.jpg
Could it be ?
theeliminator
15-08-2009, 20:26
Knight_Wolf, yeah it looks like a demonic mage, but definitely not a player character.
Knight_Wolf
15-08-2009, 20:36
Knight_Wolf, yeah it looks like a demonic mage, but definitely not a player character.
Maybe, but the armor he is wearing resembles what mage player characters usually wear in RPGs .. it does have a clear and impacting visual design, in other works the armor looks too good -in my opinion- to be for a namless enemy magical grunt.
It could still ofc be wishful thinking after all. :scratchchin:
On a second thought, this could be an important NPC in the story not a typical enemy, hence why his armor looks elaborate like this.
Sir Mister
16-08-2009, 00:53
I think there are 2 viable ways to approach it, but only 1 I condone:
1) Like the Druid in D2- jack of all trades style, SS is just one of his tricks, and it doesn't build the character, it's just A build. Can support at most 2 forms (since it being on 1 tree means more would just make each form worthless).
2)It IS the character, it's just a matter of what form you specialize in. Max 6 forms (2 per tree), but ideally 3 (1 per tree), with each tree supporting your form choice. Using D2 monsters as examples-
Tree A) Pit Lord- Big, Beefy, Melee focused, and hits like a truck. All skills are close range (inferno breath) or purely melee.
Tree B) Vampire- Mage form, supports casting. All active skills tie into this form.
Tree C) Lightning Beetle- Or something similarly completely unexpected, which uses an alternate means of dealing damage (in this case, modified thorns), but which still supports heavy melee combat. Gives the class as a whole more of a melee feel, but still gives variety to the way you perform that melee, and gives options for other types of play.
Passives tie it together, with several ones being useful to multiple forms.
And yes, I think the character as described above would be more of an expansion character than a core character, but nonetheless believe the 5th announced class with use SS in some way, shape, or form (forgive the pun). I also Firmly believe it will have a demonic bend, not because I think it would be "coolest" if it did, but because of my theories on the plot for D3, based on the information we have been given so far. I could be completely wrong on many levels, of course, and actually hope that I am in several cases, but only time will tell.
2)It IS the character, it's just a matter of what form you specialize in. Max 6 forms (2 per tree), but ideally 3 (1 per tree), with each tree supporting your form choice. Using D2 monsters as examples-
Tree A) Pit Lord- Big, Beefy, Melee focused, and hits like a truck. All skills are close range (inferno breath) or purely melee.
Tree B) Vampire- Mage form, supports casting. All active skills tie into this form.
Tree C) Lightning Beetle- Or something similarly completely unexpected, which uses an alternate means of dealing damage (in this case, modified thorns), but which still supports heavy melee combat. Gives the class as a whole more of a melee feel, but still gives variety to the way you perform that melee, and gives options for other types of play.
.
The only problem I see with "1 Form for each Tree" is that you're left with no skills for your Human Form. Maybe that's the point, but I think leaving you with actually NO skills unless you transform is bad.
That's why I thought of 1 Form for each Tree- But on for 2 Trees. The 3rd one will be your Human Form skills.
That however seemed like a little less Forms than what I wanted. So I thought of 2 Forms for each Tree (for 2 Trees only). But how this can be handled? How can you divided the Forms?
P.S- K_W, that must be a monster. Come on, look at his face ^^
Knight_Wolf
16-08-2009, 19:46
The only problem I see with "1 Form for each Tree" is that you're left with no skills for your Human Form. Maybe that's the point, but I think leaving you with actually NO skills unless you transform is bad.
That's why I thought of 1 Form for each Tree- But on for 2 Trees. The 3rd one will be your Human Form skills.
That however seemed like a little less Forms than what I wanted. So I thought of 2 Forms for each Tree (for 2 Trees only). But how this can be handled? How can you divided the Forms?
Good point indeed, the human form does indeed need skills for its own.
I vote for 1 tree given to the human form and the other two each for a transformation and its passives.
P.S- K_W, that must be a monster. Come on, look at his face ^^
Like i said, his clothes IMO look too fancy for him to be a regular monster, that's why i'm now more leaning towards him being an important NPC mage in the story.
As for faces, come one ... did you take a close look at the witch doctor's face .. he makes that mage look like goody Mr.Handsome.
human form skills? for what?
skills like conversation, shoping, sleeping... hehe
if you wanna be shape shifter you dont want human form
also i dont like to shape to stupid forms like proposed (turtle, beetle...)
i want forms like before, wolf and bear, and maybe some new one (dragon?)
i want passive skills (whole tree), regenaration for werewolfs and such
i want that merchants dont wanna trade with you when you are shaped (he will normally do that)
Knight_Wolf
17-08-2009, 18:20
human form skills? for what?
skills like conversation, shoping, sleeping... hehe
The Druid (wasn't a full SS i know) had skills for his human form, but i don't see even a full SS character without any skills or anything to do with his human form ... that's IMO is a big waste.
Depending on the shape shifting character background (mage, paladin, .. etc etc) there could be many skills to include on his human form to allow for a variety of builds and make the human form meaningful .. i mean what's the point of having a human form if it can't do anything .. we would be better off removing it all together.
ZwanZigZwolf
30-08-2009, 19:59
I would love to see an extreme shapeshifter as the fifth class. Can call it "Changeling" or whatever, if they want to keep it "fresh" by going back to old names.
One idea would allow the SS to have a high level skill that allows it to SS into ANY creature it has defeated in the past 30 seconds. So you start a fight out as one creature type but finish it as another, so as they circumstance changed, so does the SS.
Hakarrod
30-08-2009, 20:38
I would like to see a plant based SS. Think about it, we could discuss the "Tree" tree.
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.