View Full Version : Am I the only one to notice a timeline change?
When I was playing d1 a while back, in Hell or the Caves the book that gives background lore of the events in Diablo claims Both Mephisto and Baal were captured under the desert sands to the east. Yet In D2 and D3's timeline Meph was was captured in the jungle which later became kurast. This to me is an obvious timeline error and I know they can do whatever they want with the lore. But did anyone else ever realize that?
Dude, I as far as I can remember Meph was supposed to be where you eventually meet Duriel in Act 2 D2 'cuz he was freed from tal rasha's body by the dark wanderer, when him and meph defeated Tyrael in their escape, so kurast is like the place where meph is no longer in custody, so to speak;)
No Meph was (d2 lore) captured in kurast jungles and was kept watch over by the Zakarum high priests which his hatred eventually corrupted
I just finished going through D1 again for the first time in... forever, and I was a little surprised at some of the lore I had forgotten about. The Warlord of Blood actually being Bartuc, for example. Maybe the 'deserts of the east' is just referring to the east in general since I don't think the world map was completely defined back then.
Baal was the one that was imprisoned where you fight Duriel. It was his soulstone that what-his-face took that Baal later got back after act 4. Mephy was in Kurast the whole time and had somewhat recently corrupted his captors. It appears that he was the one that actually corrupted Lazarus, then sent him to Tristram to free Diablo.
Since you guys are righ (and i was painfully wrong;), then the D1 is indeed inconsistent with d2's lore.
It appears that he was the one that actually corrupted Lazarus, then sent him to Tristram to free Diablo.
Not according to the D1 manual:
Not long after Leoric took possession of Khanduras, a power long asleep awakened within the dark recesses beneath the Monastery. Sensing that freedom was within his grasp, Diablo entered the nightmares of the Arch Bishop and lured him into the dark, subterranean labyrinth.
This doesn't exclude Lazarus from initially being tainted by Mephisto, of course, but it isn't mentioned. A taint could easily be read into this part:
It was then that the great northern lord Leoric came unto the lands of Khanduras and, in the name of Zakarum, declared himself King. Leoric was a deeply religious man and had brought many Knights and Priests with him that comprised his Order of the Light. Leoric and his trusted advisor, the Arch Bishop Lazarus, made their way to the city of Tristram. Leoric appropriated the ancient, decrepit Monastery on the outskirts of the town for his seat of power and renovated it to match its time-lost glory.
I would hardly call "Tristram" a 'city', nor a decrepit old monastery surrounded in mystery a particularly great site for your new throne/kingdom. I can easily see a case being made that Lazarus was partial to going there due to Mephisto's influence, but I doubt that Lazarus is likely to play any bigger part in the story than he already has (eg I don't envision it turning out that Lazarus studied for years in the dark arts and was instrumental in Mephisto also escaping, etc).
As for the original topic, about D1 vs D2 for Mephisto's capture:
Mephisto and Baal, trapped within the swirling, spiritual constraints of the Soulstones, were then buried beneath the dunes of the desolate Eastern Sands.
That's pretty clear-cut, however remember that all of this happened a century or two before the setting of Diablo 1 - it's entirely possible Mephisto could have been re-located by the Zakarum, under the grounds that they want to keep a closer watch on him, and for that to simply not be mentioned in the manual because it isn't relevant to the story at hand (which is more about Diablo and Baal than it ever was about Mephisto).
I believe the 'D2 Lore' that is being spoken about here is Cain's quest dialog during the Khalim's Will and Black Temple quests from D2, but I haven't found any source on the internet that has a transcript of this dialogue and I haven't played D2 in years, so I can't say one way or the other exactly what D2 purports to have happened to Mephisto's soulstone, other than the council members having pieces of it buried in their hands after Mephisto ascended to physical form again (that's why they're half demonic).
I've found a site that appears to have all of the NPC dialogue from D2, although some may be missing.
In any event, here are two references to Mephisto's history:
You must know that the Guardian Tower in the Temple City was built by the Horadrim for one purpose - to hold Mephisto. Once the Council is dead, you may enter the Tower.
The ancient Horadrim imprisoned the Lord of Hatred inside the Guardian Tower that is located within the Temple City of Travincal.
So this would tend to contradict the Diablo 1 manual, but again there's no reason that the Horadrim couldn't have initially buried Mephisto in the desert, and later moved him to Travincal. Given the hassle they had with Baal, and the fact that they took Diablo's soulstone to Khanduras, its reasonable to believe that they would have separated the 3 soulstones and not permanently buried Baal and Mephisto's stones close to each other.
wow someone who actually gave references
In the D2 manual, there's a letter to Lazarus (http://www.diablowiki.net/Custodians_of_Hatred) that includes the statement: "Since it has been your sole responsibility to safeguard Mephisto's Soulstone, I must wonder if perhaps your dread task isn't affecting your noble spirit in some malign way." The whole letter is interesting, and it seems to be the only lore giving any background on Laz before his arrival in Tristram.
Here's a link to the D2wiki section for all the NPC dialog: http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Npcs. Not sure if that's what you had found or not.
If saying Baal and Meph were both buried in Eastern Sands wasn't just an over simplification since it isn't relevant to the events of D1, then I'd say it's entirely possible that there's more 'eastern sand' than just around Lut Gholein. I looks like the areas near Caldeum could be desert-like too, and that's not too far north of Kurast. Maybe Kurast was desert when they captured Meph.
Edit: Actually, it looks like the area around Kurast has been known for it's lush jungles and rainforests. Maybe Meph was caught north of there originally? This is all just unprovable speculation. I vote for the D1 lore was just made inaccurate with later lore.
Thanks Technomancer, that wasn't the site I found, and this one is much more complete and useful (not surprising, since it is diii.net).
And yes, after I made my edits I did further digging around and found the Lazaraus letter, which isn't on the D2 manual page in the wiki for some reason (I was sure there was more lore that was missing from that page), although the two short poems are on the D2 manual page. That should be fixed up, I think.
So I think that does pretty much show that Lazarus was being tainted by Mephisto, and is probably the reason they chose Tristram for the throne, which is really a small village that is really non-notable for anything but holding Diablo's soulstone.
Further more, if you look at what Ormus actually says:
"You must know that the Guardian Tower in the Temple City was built by the Horadrim for one purpose - to hold Mephisto."
Clearly Kurast existed before the Horadrim captured Mephisto and the Guardian Tower was a later addition. It is unlikely that they had the tower completed, ready and waiting before Mephisto was captured, so there would be an intervening time period where they had to do something with the soulstone - being buried in the desert would fit this. Obviously I'm weaving a plausible story here to reconcile the various accounts, but such weaving can be done fairly easily without any real contortions, so I think it's safe to say that although the D2 lore may not mesh up 100% accurately with the D1 lore, there is easily enough latitude for it to fit without any big issues.
Another source of lore is http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/world/timeline.xml.
"Mephisto is captured near the jungles of Kehjistan and imprisoned under a Zakarum temple in what will eventually become Kurast."
Now that I read that a bit more carefully I think they are not changing the time line. The map seems to show deserts north of the Kehjistan the part that still just still looks ugly is the part of Meph being buried in the sands according to D1.
Also with D3 comming out it could how the missing connection. Again not a huge deal just it seems inconsistant which is a pet peeve of mine.
In the original D2 box version the manual had drawn world of the entire Sanctuary in it.
While it might not be that important, it could give some speculative idea about the locations themselves. When I find the manual I'll give it a look.
Edit: I found it and on p78 on the manual, if Mephisto had been trapped in the western desert(s), they would've had to transport him either through the same route Meshif takes you to Kurast or go from north, there to west to Scosglen and there towards south to Kehjistan and Kurast. How one transports a prime-evil (besides a plot-hole\story-hole caused back when D1 was made) from one location to another without any real issues remains a mystery :p
(...)I vote for the D1 lore was just made inaccurate with later lore.
Don't you think that's the other way around? They screwed up the D2 lore.
My guess is that back when they made D1 they were not sure is it gonna be such hit nor even commercially successfull at all, so while the story and such were made, they were far from finished (makes sense).
However, as it was more or less of an success and D2 began developement they had to make some kind of canon which obviously does conflict with some of the information that D1 offers which results in plot holes or so.
You could pretty much compare it to Resident Evil series in that case.
As I posted, at length, on the first page of this thread, yes, taken on the surface the D2 lore does conflict with the D1 lore. However there's no reason why both can't be true - just because D1 says Mephisto was buried under the sands of the east, it doesn't mean that he was permanently buried there forever and ever until the end of time.
just because D1 says Mephisto was buried under the sands of the east, it doesn't mean that he was permanently buried there forever and ever until the end of time.
True, but the only real 'problem' with D1 vs D2 explanations is that presuming D1 is correct that Mephisto was also trapped there, how one transfers Prime Evil quite long distance without any real issues?
I presume it could be that he was trapped in a soulstone that was not damaged or had beter 'seal' than the others and the transfer was accompanied by large amount of mages, but it still remains a mystery.
imo, its really hard for games of this nature to match up lore perfectly. although i love storylines and plots, you can only take them for what they are worth. i think this is also a reason that the FF series has never really had any 'continuing' games...it would be insanely hard to match the storyline over such time frames.
I've been working on my own fantasy/game world for a couple years now that has different eras/chapters that play into one another. It's a virtual catastrophe trying to make sure that everything lines up perfectly and doesn't contradict. Of course, it's quite a bit more expansive and intricate than the Diablo lore. I can't really fault anyone for making some minor mistakes, especially when you're starting out not knowing if there's even gonna be a sequel.
i totally agree with technomancer on this...let alone 2 sequels, or maybe 3 or 4. man it would be hard to create a fantasy world. think of how much time jrr tolkein spent on the lotr. insane.
I remember reading that Mephisto and Baal were fought and captured in the deserts, but I'm just assuming that they spread the soul stones out for safety reasons. Not that it did a lot of good...
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