Blade Fury Analysis

[Ceramic Weasel]

Blade Fury Analysis

Everything you thought you knew about Blade Fury put to the test, with surprising results


Introduction

I've been playing Assassins in one form or another for many years, but hadn't paid much attention to the Blade Fury skill until just a few months ago. I was intrigued by the idea of a Furysin. It looked like fun and Blade Fury was said to be a 1pt-wonder skill, making any Fury build highly customizable. I spent several weeks testing equipment combinations, but its performance always left me mildly disappointed. Then, about two weeks after I had given up on the idea, an update to the Arreat Summit on June 15, 2009 included this surprising addition to the skill description:The +min/max damage listed on the skill effectively works the same as +min/max damage added to your weapon on normal attacks, except that it is not reduced by the 3/4, 3/8 & 1/4 penalties. So for damage dealing purposes, on blade fury, you could treat it exactly the same as an offweapon source of +min/max damage, ignoring the penalty. This is especially important, as with high levels of blade skills, the +skill damage can deal more than the weapon "half" of the damage.I almost fell off my chair. This is huge! Do people know about this? It flew in the face of everything I thought I knew about this skill. Nearly all the guides I had read with any mention of Blade Fury had all said the same thing: that this was a 1pt-wonder; additional points in this skill are wasted. But if the above statement is correct, a 20pt investment in Blade Fury could potentially yield THOUSANDS of damage! I immediately dug up my data sheets and started repeating all my tests, this time making no assumptions about what Blade Fury was and wasn't supposed to do. The following is a description of my findings, and the conclusions made therein.

Note: This is NOT a Furysin guide. This is an analysis of the Blade Fury skill for the purposes of maximizing its damage. The only skills and equipment that will be discussed are those that affect Blade Fury. I will not discuss stat placement, strategies or anything else of that nature. If there is enough interest in a new Furysin guide based on these findings, I may write one in the future. But not before Ladder resets and not before I've had a chance to play through levels 1-80 so I can be sure I know what I'm talking about.


Abbreviation Key
%ed - % Enhanced Damage
AR - Attack Rating
Avg - Average
BF - Blade Fury
ctc - chance to cast
CB - Crushing Blow
CM - Claw Mastery
CoS - Cloak of Shadows
CS - Critical Strike
Dex - Dexterity
Dmg - Damage
DS - Deadly Strike
ITD - Ignore Target Defense
LCS - Lying Character Screen
Lvl - Level
Mods - Modifiers
PvP - Player vs Player
PvM - Player vs Monster
Str - Strength


Assassin builds that use Blade Fury

Furysin Guide by Ritslev (http://strategy.diabloii.net/news.php?id=565)
The Ninja by Frogboybri (http://strategy.diabloii.net/news.php?id=566)
The Warrior-Monk (Uber-Trist) by JanusJones (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392666&page=1&pp=10)



Section A - Skills

Blade Fury

Okay, lets cut right to the chase. The damage from BF isn't very impressive. Or at least, it doesn't appear to be. When you watch the LCS as you place points into BF, your listed damage will only go up by tiny increments. This is because the LCS calculates BF damage with the following formula:

Damage = ((Weapon_Damage + Offweapon_Damage) * (1 + StatsBonus + (+x% Enhanced_Damage) / 100) + Elemental_Damage) * 0.75 + BF_Damage

For those unfamiliar with Diablo 2 damage equations, this means that your normal weapon damage is calculated, modified by items and skills, elemental damage (including magic and poison) is added, the whole thing is hit with a big 3/4 nerf bat, and then the damage from BF is included, unmodified, at the end.

However, if the recent update to the Arreat Summit is accurate, the real damage formula should look more like this:

Damage = ((Weapon_Damage + Offweapon_Damage) * (1 + StatsBonus + (+x% Enhanced_Damage) / 100) + Elemental_Damage) * 0.75 + BF_Damage * (1 + StatsBonus + (+x% Enhanced_Damage) / 100)

This means that the damage granted by BF would get modified by your Str and/or Dex, as well as all off-weapon sources of enhanced damage. These include skills like CM and auras, as well as items such as Fortitude and Phoenix. This can add up very quickly, but before I did anything else I first had to test the damage equation.

Note on testing: All tests presented in this report were conducted in single player, normal difficulty, on my home network. A character editor was used to create whatever equipment I required and to occasionally reset skill levels. Unless noted otherwise, the test character in all cases was a lvl 90 Assassin with 140 Str and 105 Dex.

Custom rings were used to boost her AR over 70,000, and a small charm with 100% ctc lvl 5 life tap on striking alerted me when a miss occurred. Due to the nature of BF, it's very difficult to throw less than 2 shuriken at a time, so they were thrown in sets of 2 or more and the average damage of each strike was calculated based on the damage dealt by the entire set.

The target was a lvl 90 Barbarian with no equipment and no skill points allocated. He had exactly 10,000 life and 0% resistances.


For the following tests, I equipped a Fortitude armor and a Last Wish Bezerker Axe with maximum (+390%) damage. To ensure accurate results, the ctc effects and CB were removed from the Last Wish. No Venom was used.Level 1 BF
Listed Damage: 656-1935 (1296 Avg) (216 PvP)
Expected Damage: 707-1999 (1353 Avg) (226 Pvp)

Average damage over 150 hits: 225

Level 20 BF
Listed Damage: 749-2028 (1389 Avg) (232 PvP)
Expected Damage: 1396-2687 (2042 Avg) (340 PvP)

Average damage over 200 hits: 348Wow, that's pretty clear. Damage from BF is modified by stats, skills and off-weapon %ed at the very least. So what does this mean for our potential damage return?

Take an example Assassin with 150 Str, 100 Dex, maxed CM and the following setup:

Weapon: random claw
Armor: Fortitude
Shield: Phoenix
Other: +skill items granting a total of +15 CM and +15 BF
Mercenary: Act 2 Might (lvl 87) with 'Pride' polearm

Note: While the above setup is entirely possible, it's not very practical for reasons discussed later. It is provided here for demonstration purposes only.

The Blade Fury modifiers will then be as follows:

Stats Bonus = 1.87
Lvl 35 Claw Mastery = +171%
Lvl 27 Might (Merc) = +300%
Lvl 20 Concentration = +345%
Fortitude armor = +300%
Phoenix shield = +400%

The difference between 1pt and 20pts in BF, with +15 to the skill, is 152 damage. So now we calculate:

152 * (1+1.87 + (171+300+345+300+400) / 100) ~= 2741

So, by investing 19 additional points into BF, we gain an extra 2,741 damage! Even the godliest Grief-wielding Smiters can't gain that much damage return by maxing Smite, so it seems absurd that a Furysin wouldn't max BF.


Claw Mastery

I knew from my previous testing that Critical Strike from CM applies to BF while wielding a claw. Its kind of hard to miss when all you're using is a claw and a Fortitude, and you throw several thousand shuriken at a defenseless Barbarian. From this observation I had assumed that all of CM's attributes apply to BF, but in the back of my mind I knew I needed to test it. I was determined not to make any more assumptions.

For this test I removed the Fortitude and traded the Last Wish for a claw. CM was boosted to lvl 40 and its affect on each side of the proposed equation was tested separately by using different damage claws and different lvls of BF.Level 40 CM (+191%ed)

First, the claw side of the equation...

Level 1 BF
Magic Suwayyah (234-312 Dmg)
Expected BF Damage (factoring CS): 1069-1421 (1245 Avg) (208 PvP)

Average damage over 150 hits: 215


...then the BF side of the equation

Level 20 BF
Plain Claws (8-15 Dmg)
Expected BF Damage (factoring CS): 623-666 (645 Avg) (108 PvP)

Average damage over 150 hits: 108Okay, that all checks out. My current damage equation still holds.

Now for the AR component. For this test I increased my target's defense to 2000, significantly decreased my Furysin's AR and compared the hit rate of a basic claw against that of a hatchet. The AR's listed below are those given by the LCS with normal attack selected.Level 30 CM (+320%AR)

Claw AR: 14,721
Number of hits over 200 shots: 137 (68.5%)

Hatchet AR: 3,505
Number of hits over 200 shots: 126 (63%)Hmm, that doesn't look very convincing. The claw hit more frequently, but not as much as I would expect with over 14k AR. I couldn't draw any conclusions from that, so I decided to boost CM to lvl 50 to see what happens.Level 50 CM (+520%AR)

Claw AR: 21,731
Number of hits over 100 shots: 60

Hatchet AR: 3,505
Number of hits over 100 shots: 61What the hell? Even with a boost of 7k AR, my hit rate with the claw somehow managed to decrease. That clinches it; the AR component of CM does not apply to Blade Fury while wielding a claw.


Venom

With two skills tested and already two unexpected results, I wasn't about to leave this stone unturned. Venom is supposed to be reduced by the 3/4 penalty along with all other elemental damage. In short, it is.

Testing it was tricky, since it's duration is 10 frames (0.4 seconds) and BF hits at a rate of 6 frames, so I had to calculate how much damage the first blade would do before the second hits and reapplies the poison. But because the damage is so regular, the results varied by only 0.8 from the expected damage with a lvl 50 Venom. I won't bother listing the results in detail, since they're incredibly boring.

I also tested elemental and magic damage from other sources (weapon, charms, equipment, etc) and found the same 3/4 penalty applies to these as well. That then brings us to the next section of this report...



Section B - Equipment

Before I start destroying everyone's long-held beliefs about what makes the best Furysin equipment, I'm going to take a moment to review some of the equipment mods that do, and do not, work with Blade Fury. Most of this information can be obtained from Ritslev's guide mentioned above, but I will list it again here for completeness sake.

What works
Physical/Weapon Damage (3/4 or 3/8)
Elemental Damage (3/4 or 3/8)
Deadly Strike
Crushing Blow
Open Wounds
Knockback
Prevent Monster Heal
Ignore Target Defense
Life and Mana Leech
Chance to cast on Striking
Hit Freezes Target
Hit Blinds Target
Hit Slows Target
Hit Causes Monster to Flee
What doesn't work
Faster Cast Rate
Increased Attack Speed
Chance to cast on Attacking
Pierce Target
Most of these are fairly obvious to BF veterans, so I wasn't going to bother testing all of them. However, some of these are highly relevant to damage output, and I felt that they deserved proper testing to remove any ambiguity surrounding them.


The 3/8 Penalty

When wielding 2-Handed weapons, the BF 3/4 penalty increases to 3/8. This is widely known and has been confirmed throughout my testing many times over. What some people do not realize, however, is that the LCS will continue to display damage as though the penalty were 3/4. Do not trust your character screen! 2H weapons are almost always a bad idea for Furysins, since the 3/8 penalty not only applies to your physical weapon damage, but extends to magic and elemental damage too.

To confirm this I compared a Colossus Blade to a Mythical Sword, each with +200%ed and +200 Cold/Fire/Magic. My Assassin had 190 Str and 140 Dex, lvl 1 BF and no other equipment.Colossus Blade (2H)
Listed damage with normal attack: 1104-1600
Listed damage with Blade Fury: 836-1210 (1023 Avg) (171 PvP)
Expected damage with BF (3/8): 437-629 (533 Avg) (89 PvP)

Average damage over 100 hits: 92
If the elemental component was only suffering a 3/4 penalty, we'd expect to see
126 average PvP damage.


Mythical Sword (1H)
Listed damage with normal attack: 948-1035
Listed damage with Blade Fury: 719-786
Expected damage with BF (3/4): 734-805 (770 Avg) (128 PvP)

Average damage over 100 hits: 131If that wasn't bad enough, the 3/8 penalty from 2H weapons also extends to Venom. The following test was done with a normal 2H sword, lvl 1 BF, lvl 50 Venom and 140 Str. Blades were thrown in sets of 2, allowing the second to deliver the full dose of poison before the next set was fired.Level 50 Venom with 2H sword
Average Venom damage per frame: 143.5 (23.9 PvP)

1st Blade (6 frames): 7.3 + 23.9 * 6 * 0.375 = 61
2nd Blade (10 frames): 7.3 + 23.9 * 10 * 0.375 = 97

Expected average damage: (61 + 97)/2 = 79
Observed average damage over 100 hits: 75
In other words, don't use 2H weapons.


Deadly Strike

There's no question that DS works, but I wasn't sure if it worked on the extra damage granted by Blade Fury as well. I'm nothing if not thorough, so yet again I ran some tests. I used a phase blade with +500%ed and 100% DS, lvl 20 BF and put on a Fortitude to boost the BF component slightly higher than the weapon component. If the DS was only applying to the weapon component, the result should be significantly less than my expected damage.Listed damage with normal attack: 1004-1134
Expected damage with BF (factoring DS): 2596-2813 (2705 Avg) (451 PvP)

Average damage over 100 hits: 460Awesome. The amazing damage potential of BF just got even better.


Crushing Blow

This stuff is great for PvM, as everyone knows, but when you read the description on the Arreat Summit it says that the damage from CB is halved for "missile weapons". What does this mean for BF when you're wielding a melee weapon and throwing shuriken?

To test this I created a shortbow and club, both with 100% CB, then wailed on my target with normal attack to get a damage benchmark for each. I then repeated the test using lvl 1 BF with both weapons. Alas, no matter what weapon you're wielding, BF always counts as a "missile weapon" for calculating CB damage.


Weapons

After all that testing and exposition, you're probably anxious to see some actual weapon comparisons. Many people on these forums have their favourite BF weapons, such as Stormlash, Fleshripper or Last Wish. I tested all of these and lots more, and will post the results of the highest performing weapons, along with others that people may be interested in seeing.

For these tests my Assassin had lvl 30 CM and lvl 30 BF, was wearing Fortitude, Gore Riders and a Guillaume's helm socketed with a 40%ed jewel. Her Str and Dex altered slightly depending on the weapon used, but in most cases remained at 155 and 105 respectively. This setup provided her with the following, off-weapon damage modifiers:
340% Enhanced Damage
50% Crushing Blow
30% Deadly Strike
10% Open Wounds
+151% Enhanced Damage with claws
22% Critical Strike with claws
181-183 Blade Fury base damageAll variable effects on the weapons (specifically damage) were set at maximum, and in the case of runewords a further +15%ed was added for the superior base weapon. To give the non-runewords a fighting chance, they were all socketed with "Lo" runes, granting 20% DS.The damages listed are the average over 100 hits in PvP

Weapon Grade Damage Str/Dex
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Godly Rare Claw (pic (http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc178/azmarath/Diablo/ShadRaz.jpg)) Ethereal 1226 155/105
Death Ettin Axe Ethereal 1137 155/105
Lacerator (after Amp) Ethereal 1137 155/115 (req)
Last Wish Bezerker Axe Ethereal 1132 155/105
Choas Suwayyah Ethereal 1115 165/105 (weapon)
Stonecrusher Ethereal 1089 185/105 (weapon/req)
Fury Suwayyah Ethereal 1088 155/105
Beast Ettin Axe Ethereal 1050 195/105 (weapon)
Fleshripper Ethereal 1019 155/105

Bartuc's Cut-Throat Ethereal, Upped 981 175/125 (weapon)
Last Wish Bezerker Axe Normal 954 155/105
Stormlash Ethereal 950 155/105
Choas Suwayyah Normal 918 165/105 (weapon)
Shadowkiller Ethereal 898 155/105
Famine Ettin Axe* Ethereal 848 165/105 (weapon)
BOTD Bezerker Axe Ethereal 810 185/135 (weapon)
Schaefer's Hammer Normal (must be) 765 190/105 (req)
Faith Colossus Crossbow Normal (must be) 760 165/105 (req)
Azurewrath Normal (must be) 719 165/150 (weapon/req)
Crescent Moon Ettin Axe Ethereal 712 155/105
Lacerator (before Amp) Ethereal 644 155/115 (req)
Grief Ettin Axe Ethereal 557 155/105

*Famine can be made in a Legendary Mallet for extra damage, but I chose not to
because of the Str requirements.Last Wish: It’s worth noting that the first time I conducted weapon tests with lvl 1 BF, Last Wish ranked somewhere below Fury. Thus, a lot of this damage can be contributed to a high lvl BF combined with the lvl 17 Might aura.

Stormlash: I'm sure people are going to reply with various comments about static, CB, greatest PvM weapon ever, etc. Personally I think it's a fantastic weapon... for kickers. It works well in melee because everything swarms you and gets torn up by the static field. But with BF and CoS I'm always firing from a distance, usually using knockback, and lvl 10 static just doesn't have the range to be effective in that situation. For a pure Furysin I would say it's okay, but not amazing.

Faith: Yeah. Remember what I said about 2H weapons? Well, it goes double for bows since they can't be ethereal.

Famine: What Famine lacks in damage, it makes up in versatility. Nothing will be immune to you, and with an Infinity on your merc, all that elemental damage can become quite respectable. How much it does will vary from creature to creature, depending on their resistances, but even with Conviction it'll never reach the raw power of some of the higher physical damage options.

Grief: Woah, what happened here? The Warrior-Monk guide lists this as one of the best weapons for BF, and looking at the mods I can see how someone might easily think that. But clearly it was never actually tested. I figured that the +X damage mod was not being multiplied properly, so naturally I decided to test it.

For the following test my Assassin had 140 Str, 140 Dex, lvl 1 BF and was wearing Fortitude armor. The base weapon for each test was a phase blade with +200%ed and varying amounts of +X or +X-Y damage.Phase Blade (+200%ed) Avg Dmg (60 hits)
--------------------------------------------
+60-120 damage 136
+90 damage 77
+490 damage 76
+Nothing 78Well that explains it. +X damage doesn't work with BF at all.

So what would be my weapon of choice? At this stage, I'd have to say Fury Suwayyah.

... huh?

Allow me to explain. Last Wish is only effective because of its Might aura, but we can get a much higher Might aura from a mercenary. Given what we now know about the BF damage equation, it would be silly not to take advantage of that. Death and Chaos are both great, but they lack ITD which is a real pain. You could get a Blessed Aim merc, but then you'd lose Might. You can equip your merc with an Infinity (I highly recommend this for bosses and champs anyway) and exploit the hell out of that -83% defense, but Conviction's radius isn't enough to cover the whole screen, so you're limited to attacking whatever group of monsters your merc decides to attack.

With Fury I'm not relying on my mercenary all the time, I don't have to worry about getting a crappy damage roll since Fury's %ed is fixed, and I can make it in a claw with a +3 Blade Fury staffmod. It's also a very appropriately named runeword.


Shield

The obvious choice here seems like Phoenix. That +400%ed working on both your weapon and BF damage makes each hit really hurt, but as JanusJones points out in his Warrior-Monk guide, the ctc Firestorm constantly interrupts your stream of shurikens. BF has a rather long windup, and when you're being interrupted every 2-3 hits by a 15 frame casting delay, I had to wonder what the overall affect is on damage over time. So I compared it to some other popular damage dealing shields.

For these tests I opened up my system clock and positioned my Diablo 2 window so that I could watch the seconds ticking by. I used the same setup as with the weapon tests, except I took off the Gore Riders and Guillaume's helm, and boosted my target's life to 20,000. Then I timed (roughly) how long it took to kill my target from the moment I held down the mouse button. The weapon used was an ethereal Fury Suwayyah.Shield Average time (out of 3)
--------------------------------------------------
3x 40%ed jewels 7.33 seconds
Dream 8.67 seconds
Tiamat's + 40%ed jewel 8.67 seconds
Phoenix (+400%ed) 10.67 secondsWhat about Voice of Reason?

Builds based around ctc effects seem to be popular these days, and although Rift's ctc Orb won't work with BF, Voice of Reason's ctc will. I have tried it in PvM and found it to be moderately effective, but my personal opinion is that ctc items which trigger a casting delay are counter-productive for Furysins. I'm sure it's playable with the right equipment, and probably lots of fun, but I'll leave it to others to conduct further research in this area.


Conclusions

I said at the beginning this wasn't a Furysin guide and I'm sticking to that. I don't feel qualified recommending specific equipment options, since I'm still trying them out myself. Damage wise, I tend to look for DS and off-weapon Enhanced Damage before CB, and I consider ITD and Knockback to be high priorities also.

For a final demonstration of a Furysin's true damage potential with a more practical setup, consider the following:

Strength: 160
Dexterity: 90
Armor: Fortitude
Weapon: Ethereal Fury Suwayyah (+3 BF staffmod)
Shield: Monarch socketed with 4x 40%ed jewels
Helm: Guillaume's socketed with 1x 40%ed jewel
Boots: Gore Riders
Amulet: Highlord's Wrath
Ring: Bul-Kathos
Belt: Arachnid's Mesh
Inventory: Torch, Anni, 9x Trap GCs
Switch: CTA
Mercenary: Act 2 Might (lvl 87) with 'Infinity' polearm

With Battle Orders, this grants +8 CM and +20 BF

Stats Bonus = 1.87
Lvl 40 Blade Fury = 262 avg
Lvl 28 Claw Mastery = +143%
Lvl 27 Might (Merc) = +300%
Off-weapon item %ed = +500%
Chance of double damage = 22+(1-22/100)*(33+32+15+15) = 96%

Weapon Half = 219.5 * (1 + 1.87 + (143+300+500) / 100) * 1.96 * 0.75 ~= 3,969
Blade Fury Half = 262 * (1 + 1.87 + (143+300+500) / 100) * 1.96 ~= 6,316

Average Damage per shuriken = 10,285

Mmmm, that's good Blade Fury. :thumbup:

[Reelix]

Average Damage per shuriken = 10,285

Holy o_O

Add an extra 100 or so for an off-hand Lvl 21 enchant ;)

Thanks for the excellent Blade-Fury Review - This has provided me with a vast amount of knowledge previously unknown, and a highly interesting read!

- Edit -

Would you mind uploading the saved game of that 10ker so I can try it out myself? :)

- Edit 2 -

Some people say getting the torch on a Furysin is inadvisable since it interrupts the attacks - Your opinion?

- Edit 3 -

Weapon: Ethereal Fury Suwayyah (+3 BF staffmod)

Is it not possible to get +3BF Ethereal Socketed (To create a runeword with) ?

[maxicek]

:shocked:

Great work, some very interesting and surprising results. Shame the AR from Claw Mastery doesn't work.

Can you do the same for Blade Sentinel and Blade Shield now :badteeth:

Two problems:
- I now have another uber rare claw to find - Ethereal, Fool's, Cruel, Witch-hunters, +3BF....
- I have yet another Assassin to build. I though I had ticked the Furysin box.

[Master Zap]

Excellent reference tool for all things bfury.

Bfury has always been one of my favorite sin skills. I've always thought of it as a 1 pointer which has served me fine, but after looking at the numbers Ive second thoughts on this.

On HCL this season I rolled this
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/Master_Zappy/Screenshot360.jpg

I found this to be the most dominating bfury wep Ive ever tried, and Ive tried them all.
I think the lcs said something about 5-6K fury which is ridiculous. Paired with a conviction might merc+tiamats and this girl could bfury all targets without worrying about immunes.

*votes this thread stickied in the sin "guide" page for reference*

[DH Amazon]

I started my Fury after reading your nice guide. She is lvl27 now with lvl11 fury. That damage boost from fury helps a lot while leveling. Just bare minimum tweaking items are enough.
Might be good starting char after reset, as that damage boost from fury is enough for norm/nmare. No hurry to find decent weapon, Strength (amn,tir) claw should be enough for nmare.

In other words, don't use 2H weapons.
But even after reading that warning, I plan to use Infy as main weapon and Rogue merc with Wrath-bow to trigger Decrepify/Life tap for me.
(IM is main reason to hold infy)
But surely need to test with one-hander when good eth weapon drops.

[Ceramic Weasel]

Add an extra 100 or so for an off-hand Lvl 21 enchant ;)Actually, that number doesn't even include Venom, and I'd probably use Demon Limb if I was going to enchant. If I prebuffed maxed Venom from the CTA switch I'd get lvl 31 (770 avg, or 77 per frame), so...

Venom = 77 * 6 * 0.75 ~= 346
Enchant = 107 * 0.75 ~= 80

For 10,711 per shuriken.

Would you mind uploading the saved game of that 10ker so I can try it out myself? :)

Some people say getting the torch on a Furysin is inadvisable since it interrupts the attacks - Your opinion?

Is it not possible to get +3BF Ethereal Socketed (To create a runeword with) ?1. Will do this later. It's just a demo, though, and she has a few issues with Phys immunes.

2. Torch has no casting delay because it uses Diablo's Firestorm ability, not the Druids.

3. I was actually talking about the 'Fury' runeword (Jah+Gul+Eth) made in an ethereal Suwayyah with +3 BF.

Great work, some very interesting and surprising results. Shame the AR from Claw Mastery doesn't work.

Can you do the same for Blade Sentinel and Blade Shield now :badteeth:Yeah, I was really disappointed about the AR too. As for Blade Sentinel, that's my next project, as soon as I get a few days with nothing else to do. :)

I now have another uber rare claw to find - Ethereal, Fool's, Cruel, Witch-hunters, +3BFI did think of testing one of these, but I forgot. I'm not sure I'd want it without 2 sockets, though, for Jah + Lo. I'll run the numbers on this tomorrow.

On HCL this season I rolled this ...That's why I included Famine in my results, it just looks so perfect. But even under the influence of Conviction, Fury Suwayyah manages to outdamage it with all that DS acting on both weapon and BF damage. Still, a very respectable BF weapon when used with an Infinity merc.

But even after reading that warning, I plan to use Infy as main weaponJust so long as you know your character screen is lying about your damage. I can run the numbers on this tomorrow if you like. You're really going to miss that Might aura though, it adds a stack of damage.

Thanks for all the comments guys.

[YogiRat]

Great work Weasel! I think this should be stickied also, but could you run one more weapon test for me? Just to put my mind at ease?

Stormlash: I'm sure people are going to reply with various comments about static, CB, greatest PvM weapon ever, etc. Personally I think it's a fantastic weapon... for kickers. It works well in melee because everything swarms you and gets torn up by the static field. But with BF and CoS I'm always firing from a distance, usually using knockback, and lvl 10 static just doesn't have the range to be effective in that situation. For a pure Furysin I would say it's okay, but not amazing.
The static works (10+yard radius), but it's nothing to write home to mom about in Hell.
What about Voice of Reason?

Builds based around ctc effects seem to be popular these days, and although Rift's ctc Orb won't work with BF, Voice of Reason's ctc will. I have tried it in PvM and found it to be moderately effective, but my personal opinion is that ctc items which trigger a casting delay are counter-productive for Furysins. I'm sure it's playable with the right equipment, and probably lots of fun, but I'll leave it to others to conduct further research in this area.

Both VoR and the Stormlash have a 10% CTC on striking. Impressive, but they don't compare against the 33% CTC Amp damage the Lacerators have. Yes, the CTC flee does disrupt things against normal monsters, but it doesn't against bosses. This is a huge plus. :) Please do this test, you are set up for it. I don't want to be a lonely voice in the woods.

1. Will do this later. It's just a demo, though, and she has a few issues with Phys immunes.
She won't with Lacerators, LI, PI, what ever, this weapon gets the job done.
There is more to this game than just physical damage. The Tucks that I pre-buff with show more damage on the LCS than those axes. ;)





sorry Sara, it's true. :(

[renegademaster]

Hi there fascinating write-up!

Another thing i was wondering about Poison Damage, with melee attacks any % bonus to poison damage is applied twice, is it only applied once for BF as its ranged?

Am testing a Voice of Reason BF sin now, the damage is not ground breaking, but it changes the way you play, making you more sneaky!

[BlastDuke]

Awesome work, Ceramic Weasel! :thumbup:

Following your numbers and making a quick "damage output with my equipment" Excel sheet one question remains for me:
The calculation says:
Weapon Half = 219.5 * (1 + 1.87 + (143+300+500) / 100) * 1.96 * 0.75 ~= 3,969

Can anyone describe how you exactly calculate the 219.5 value? The Suwayyah has 45.5 avg base damage, what makes this to become 219.5?
Thanks

[bcoe]

Great write-up, very interesting. One other weapon to consider: I always considered Schaefer's Hammer tailor made for a BF-sin, with the +max damage, CtC static field, and the big AR bonus. Maybe not quite a Death ettin, but pretty darn good...

[Damric]

You didn't test my favorite kick/fury weapon, Azurewraith!!!

[Ceramic Weasel]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I just love it when people give me more work to do. :p

Updates:
- Rare claw test results
- Lacerator test results (with and without Amp Damage)
- Azurewrath test results

In reference to the rare claw; it seems ITD can spawn on rare claws with the "Piercing" suffix. So if you can find an ethereal War Fist with Cruel, Fool's, Witch-Hunter's, Piercing and Bear mods, like this (http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc178/azmarath/Diablo/ShadRaz.jpg), that would be pretty cool.


To address some of the other stuff...

----------
Level 10 Static Field is 9.3 yards. You can get an idea of the radius in the screenshots here (http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc178/azmarath/Diablo/Screenshot038.jpg) and here (http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc178/azmarath/Diablo/Screenshot025.jpg). I personally don't think it's enough for a ranged character, but that's just me.

----------
Poison Mastery (or +% psn skill dmg) does not apply twice on BF. See below for test results:
Lvl 50 Venom with Trang's glove (1435 * 1.25 = 1794)
Average Venom damage per frame: 179.4 (29.9 PvP)

1st Blade (6 frames): 3.9 + 29.9 * 6 * 0.75 = 138
2nd Blade (10 frames): 3.9 + 29.9 * 10 * 0.75 = 228

Expected average damage: (138 + 228)/2 = 183
Observed average damage over 30 hits: 181

----------
Can anyone describe how you exactly calculate the 219.5 value? The Suwayyah has 45.5 avg base damage, what makes this to become 219.5?This number is for an ethereal "Fury" Suwayyah (Jah+Gul+Eth). With 224%ed the damage on the weapon is 187-252.

----------
DH Amazon: In regards to your plan to hold the Infinity and ditch the Might merc, here are some numbers that may change your mind. Assuming you hit level 30 BF, have min Str/Dex to use an ethereal Cryptic Axe Infinity, and are wearing the following

Weapon: Ethereal Cryptic Axe Infinity (320%ed)
Armor: Fortitude
Helm: Guillaume's socketed with 1x 40%ed jewel
Boots: Gore Riders
Amulet: Highlord's Wrath

Weapon Half = 575 * (1 + 1.55 + (300+40) / 100) * 1.62 * 0.375 ~= 2,078
Blade Fury Half = 182 * (1 + 1.55 + (300+40) / 100) * 1.62 ~= 1,754

Average Damage per shuriken = 3,832

Of course, that doesn't factor in the CB or 50% bonus from Decrepify, but still, if you put the Infinity on a Might merc, boost CM to lvl 30, and use the following

Weapon: plain white Suwayyah
Shield: Tiamat's socketed with 1x 40%ed jewel
Armor: Fortitude
Helm: Guillaume's socketed with 1x 40%ed jewel
Boots: Gore Riders
Amulet: Highlord's Wrath

Edit: Forgot CS! -- 22+(1-22/100)*(32+15+15) = 70% double damage

Weapon Half = ((45.5 * (1 + 1.87 + (151+300+300+40+40) / 100) * 1.7) + 165.5) * 0.75 ~= 773
Blade Fury Half = 182 * (1 + 1.87 + (151+300+300+40+40) / 100) * 1.7 ~= 3,459

Average Damage per shuriken = 4,231

That's the power of ed% on BF. Even a non-magic, non-eth Suwayyah outdamages you. If you're not going to boost BF with %ed items and skills, there's no point maxing it at all.

----------
The character file and Conviction tests will have to wait till tomorrow, because it's really late.

[crawlingdeadman]

outstanding work :thumbup:

[Damric]

Have you ever tried to use blade fury in pvp against someone with chilling armor? It's pretty funny, but exactly how does that work?

Also check this (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/tiamatsca3.jpg/) out. I found this jewel this season. Too bad I gave this shield away to Skyjuice. It was sick on my talon/fury. I was wondering how a perfect jewel of same type would compare against that 4x40ed shield.

[onderduiker]

Ceramic Weasel, what follows may lighten your workload, although hopefully you'll still test to confirm it in case somebody made a mistake:


Claw Mastery's +% to Attack Rating (the passive_mastery_melee_th stat) doesn't apply to Blade Fury, but +% AR from other sources does: TitanSeal reported this in the Amazon Basin's Assassin Room in July 2008, and subsequent tests confirmed that CM's +% AR did apply to Blade Sentinel and Shield.


CM's Critical Strike, CS or Deadly Strike apply to both the weapon and skill damage of all three Blade skills.


Weapon damage penalties apply to physical, magic, fire, lightning, cold and poison weapon damage, and cold (but not poison) length for all three Blade skills.


Weapon damage penalties don't apply to the skill damage of Blade Sentinel and Fury, but Blade Shield's 1/4 penalty is applied to its skill damage: however, the further 1/2 weapon damage penalty when equipping two-handed weapons only applies to Blade Sentinel and Fury, not Blade Shield.


Off-weapon +% Enhanced Damage applies to the skill damage of Blade Sentinel and Fury, but not that of Blade Shield: +% ED from attributes (Strength and Dexterity) is only applied to skill damage when a weapon is equipped.


+% to Poison Skill Damage is applied to Venom when cast just as +% to Fire Skill Damage is applied to Enchant, but +% to Skill Damage isn't then applied to any elemental and poison weapon damage applied by Blade Sentinel and Fury: however, it is applied to any elemental and poison weapon damage applied by Blade Shield.


A Grief 'EthTirLoMalRal' Phase Blade's Damage +340-400 isn't applied by Blade Sentinel or Fury, but it is applied by Blade Shield.
All of that is based on tests of actual damage, not damage displayed by the character screen.

[Reelix]

Claw Mastery's +% to Attack Rating (the passive_mastery_melee_th stat) doesn't apply to Blade Fury, but +% AR from other sources does

Does %damage apply, or have I just wasted 12 skill points :|

(Woot! Hit lvl 50 HC Furysin last night!!!)

[renegademaster]

Great write-up, very interesting. One other weapon to consider: I always considered Schaefer's Hammer tailor made for a BF-sin, with the +max damage, CtC static field, and the big AR bonus. Maybe not quite a Death ettin, but pretty darn good...


yes can we get a schaefers hammer test result!!

[Ceramic Weasel]

Update:
- Schaefer's Hammer test results
- Tested Azurewrath again
- Comment on Famine

Few of these weapons will perform as well as the top dogs because they're missing two key factors:
Deadly Strike
Off-weapon %ed (ie. Claw Mastery, Aura)
When you max out BF, it becomes far more beneficial to boost that half of the equation (like with CM), than trying to boost the weapon-half, which suffers the 3/4 penalty. CB and Static work better in PvM, but I can't test that with the same level of accuracy.


I was wondering how a perfect jewel of same type would compare against that 4x40ed shield.Elemental jewels are almost certainly less effective because of the 3/4 penalty, whereas the damage gained from %ed jewels only suffer that on the weapon-half. That said, with high levels of BF, Moser's socketed with 2x 40%ed jewels will likely net more damage than Tiamat's socketed with 1.


Ceramic Weasel, what follows may lighten your workload, although hopefully you'll still test to confirm it in case somebody made a mistake:Thanks onderduiker. If I'd known there was a topic on it at the Amazon Basin I probably wouldn't have bothered with such meticulous testing. ;) I've already confirmed nearly all of those Fury observations, but at least I won't need to be so thorough if I ever get around to testing Blade Sentinel.


Does %damage apply, or have I just wasted 12 skill points :|Yes it applies. It's right there in the test results :p


The character file for the 10k Furysin is available here (http://ceramicweasel.uuuq.com/diablo/Furysin.zip). It's in a .zip because the host wouldn't allow the .d2s to upload for some bizarre reason. I've never shared D2 character files before, so I hope that works.

[bcoe]

Cool - thanks for the update. At what level did you try Schaefer's?

Also, in my experience with BF (all as a 1-point wonder, though this analysis will soon change that), AR problems are a major limiting factor to its effectiveness. Has this been your experience too? I like Schaefers because of the huge AR boost, thus reducing the dependence on angelics, etc. I'd love to see your thoughts about AR issues in non-claw weapons...

[Ceramic Weasel]

Cool - thanks for the update. At what level did you try Schaefer's?

Also, in my experience with BF ... AR problems are a major limiting factor to its effectiveness. Has this been your experience too? ... I'd love to see your thoughts about AR issues in non-claw weapons...All tests were with a lvl 90 Assassin.

AR is a huge issue, even on Claws, seeing as how the +%AR from CM doesn't work with BF. This is why I value ITD on weapons so much, even if it means losing a bit of damage, and for bosses and champs I make sure my merc is around catching them in that lvl 12 Conviction aura. It's a bit inconvenient when he dies, though.

Another alternative might be a high damage Fool's claw, combined with a Visionary (+1-99%AR) helm/circlet, but I haven't tried this yet.

[kavlor]

Another alternative might be a high damage Fool's claw, combined with a Visionary (+1-99%AR) helm/circlet, but I haven't tried this yet.

I got both so Id be interested in results(43 Str,19 Dex that should add some to damage right?) ,I need to rebuild my Bladesin.

[renegademaster]

>All variable effects on the weapons (specifically damage)
>were set at maximum, and in the case of runewords a >further +15%ed was added for the superior base weapon

I know this is a pain, but shouldnt you use Average damage and not Maximum damage to make these calculations?

[Ceramic Weasel]

I know this is a pain, but shouldnt you use Average damage and not Maximum damage to make these calculations?I thought about this, but it has it's problems.

Firstly, it's much easier to get max damage dupewords than max damage on difficult-to-find uniques, since you can just Hel and remake. In fact, I know several people who burn dozens of HRs remaking the same runeword in the same superior base weapon until it gets a high damage roll (even I've done this a few times).

Second, I didn't want any ambiguity about the results because such-and-such a weapon has a much higher maximum and would therefore be better than the maximum of another weapon, etc. To be honest I'm regretting posting the list as it is. :p

Now that I've confirmed the damage equation, it's much easier to make comparisons with that.

[Reelix]

2 things

1.) You only specified 1 ring - 2 of those then?

2.) What armor? I was thinking Jeweler's Archon Plate of Something...

[claniraq]

Hah. Interestingly, I was the one who penned that update for the arreat summit that you mention. I'm currently using a Bladesin on east/ladder, using the following setup from a guide I read:

Ethereal Chaos Suwayyah
Fortitude Armor (enigma switch)
Phoenix Monarch
Guillaimes, Cham'd
Angelics rings / ammy
Trang's Gloves
Arachnid Mesh
Gore Riders
9x Trap Skillers
Torch/Anni/Cta

I'm not sure how chaos stacks up vs fury; its 33% DS against 40% more overall weapon damage & 400 magic damage.

I've been using it strictly as a PvP char; I've found I can 1 or 2 hit many characters, killing even good hammerdins in 3-4 hits often. Personally I opted for a build that emphasized the damage on Blade Sentinel as well as Blade Fury, maxing that out too (its nice for town guard).


Another neat bonus from all of our meddling with this build is that Bladesins also make an extremely potent VLLD character, being able to pull about 160 or 200 average damage per blade sentinel at levels 9 & 12, respectively. And as a vlld tiger strike might only get 700 average damage on a fully charged hit, thats a very potent amount of damage. Especially combined with psychic hammer knockback & such.

[kavlor]

I just went mad and LOLOed these,theyre not eth but I dont think Im going to get better anytime soon.Not sure how they compare to the 2 RWs but style points and all that jazz.

Scissors Suwayyah(upped from Scissors Katar L76 now)
270% ed
AR per lvl
MD per lvl
7% ML
13 Str
2 sockets

[Ceramic Weasel]

2 things
1.) You only specified 1 ring - 2 of those then?
2.) What armor? I was thinking Jeweler's Archon Plate of Something..This is not a Furysin guide. The equipment I listed in that demonstration was just that. A demonstration of how to get over 10k Blade Fury. I expect an actual build will use different gear. Though, for armor, Fortitude is the only thing I would consider using, ladder or not.

I've been using it strictly as a PvP char; I've found I can 1 or 2 hit many characters, killing even good hammerdins in 3-4 hits often.You'd rarely hit high defense characters with BF, even with Angelics.

[stephan]

This is pretty groundbreaking for such an old game. Thanks for the work.

:)

[Ceramic Weasel]

This is pretty groundbreaking for such an old game. Thanks for the work.These tests have been done before, by onderduiker at the very least, so the information has been out there. I'm not sure whether anyone thought it was capable of this much damage, though. Even I was surprised when I managed to hit 10k.

[Ceramic Weasel]

I got both so Id be interested in results(43 Str,19 Dex that should add some to damage right?) ,I need to rebuild my Bladesin.How's this coming along kavlor? Any opinions yet on how Fool's + Visionary works out for hit rates with no ITD?

[onderduiker]

I reported my test results confirming +% Enhanced Damage applied to Blade Fury's skill damage in the 'Is Blade Shield a 1 point wonder?' topic of the Amazon Basin's Assassin Room on 27 May 2008 (stephan, you actually responded to the opening post after I did so ;)): TitanSeal reported likewise in the 'Blade Fury Sin' topic on 17 July 2008, and also reported that Claw Mastery's +% to Attack Rating didn't apply to BF.

I'd be unpleasantly surprised if TitanSeal and I were the first and only ones to test and report this at the Amazon Basin, or if Ceramic Weasel was the first and only one to do so here: it's almost six years since v1.10 was released, and the unreliability of the character screen is infamous.

Hopefully Ceramic Weasel will be the first to popularise this knowledge here, though. :thumbup:

[stephan]

I'm getting old then. I can't remember it at all. :)

[5zigen]

This is an amazing topic.

thank you OP for noticing and testing this.

One question though, how is Off weapon +max damage calculated?

I'm looking forward to the testing of blade sentry, but I fear it still wouldn't be useful even with high levels and a pheonix shield, because of the 25 frame nextdelay.

On the other hand, it may be useful because it is more of an "aoe" skill than blade fury, so that could be balanced out. Plus I don't think it needs AR IIRC.

[kavlor]

How's this coming along kavlor? Any opinions yet on how Fool's + Visionary works out for hit rates with no ITD?

Hits easy if you mean PvM even with just visionary (and no Angelics)as Ive used Last wish on occasion.

5zigen:
Blade sentinal is actually ok its even pretty good at the early levels because it can do good damage without depending on items(might be fun early ladder).In Hell in a solo game it kills very easily,small enemies go down in one.

Im amazed how well BF does in full games I think if I add Atmas Scarab into the equation it could solo full Hell games or at least some areas.

[Ceramic Weasel]

One question though, how is Off weapon +max damage calculated?According to the damage equations on Arreat Summit this should be included in the weapon half and reduced to 3/4. It's not bugged like +X on weapons and I see no reason it would crop up in the BF calculation. I haven't tested it though, so I'll add it to my to-do list.

I'm looking forward to the testing of blade sentry, but I fear it still wouldn't be useful even with high levels and a pheonix shield, because of the 25 frame nextdelay.

On the other hand, it may be useful because it is more of an "aoe" skill than blade fury, so that could be balanced out. Plus I don't think it needs AR IIRC.I've already done some calculations for this based on onderduiker's tests. Using the same equipment as the 10k Furysin example, a level 40 Sentinel should do 6,347 damage. While I haven't tested it myself, onderduiker's tests show that it does use AR, but unlike BF, it gets the +%AR boost from CM.

Also, as you said, it has a 25 frame nextdelay, so its damage potential is further reduced. I suppose the optimal use for it would be against tightly packed groups of monsters, with a long enough path so that it takes at least 1 second to complete a circuit. I think I'd rather max out Death Sentry.

Hits easy if you mean PvM even with just visionary (and no Angelics)as Ive used Last wish on occasion.

Im amazed how well BF does in full games I think if I add Atmas Scarab into the equation it could solo full Hell games or at least some areas.Last Wish has ITD, so that doesn't surprise me. I also find Atma's Scarab to be incredibly useful for dealing with Phys immunes. It's radius is small enough that it won't interfere with CoS very much.

[kavlor]

Oh yeah sorry about that just tried a random weapon and it still seems to hit ok.

Anyway I think because your damage isn't totally dependant on a weapons you could use a much wider variety just to make things a little interesting for instance Lawbringer might be a nice safety weapon especially in a party(then you could wear Maras instead of Atmas).Another weapon is CTA if you make it in a high damage eth weapon then it has dual purpose so you could have say to venom claws on the other weapon swap(bit risky making them unless you have the runes to burn).

Hmm Im going to put a list of items that might be interesting(Ill edit in more later)
Nats mark(DtD,DtU)
Shadow killer (freezes,frost nova for slow)

[Ceramic Weasel]

Lawbringer and CTA could be functional, but it's a shame to give up on the off-weapon +%ED from Claw Mastery.

I was looking at Natalya's Mark earlier, and it's actually a fairly interesting option. The general consensus is that +%DtD and +%DtU on weapons count as off-weapon enhancements for the purposes of damage calculations so, in theory, they should boost the damage from BF too (thanks onderduiker for pointing this out). This means, against Demons and Undead, an ethereal Nat's Mark socketed with 'Lo' would outdamage an ethereal Fury Suwayyah with +3 BF. This doesn't account for Open Wounds though.

[onderduiker]

Off-weapon + to Min/Maximum Damage is applied in the same way as on-weapon + to Min/Maximum Damage: it's only added to weapon damage, enhanced by off-weapon +% Enhanced Damage and subject to the weapon damage penalty (reduced to 3/4).

This earlier post (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7190627&postcount=15) summarises the results of tests on all of the Blade skills. Blade Sentinel's damage is calculated in the same way as that of BF, only with different values for the weapon damage penalty and skill damage.

Blade Sentinel requires a hit-check: + to Attack Rating, +% AR from all sources and - Monster Defense Per Hit all apply, but -% Target Defence and Ignore Target Defence do not (although both these properties do apply to Blade Fury and Shield). It also has a hidden AR bonus, equivalent to 5*level... so level 20 Blade Sentinel adds 100 (5*20) AR...

:unimpressed:

Well... every little helps, and it's added to other AR before being enhanced by +% AR.

[Ghoulz]

Ha, now I know why I seemed weak for doing 6k fury dmg with my ebotd spear.

[maxicek]

...an ethereal Nat's Mark socketed with 'Lo' ...

Set items can't be ethereal. But it's an interesting weapon choice non the less.

[Ceramic Weasel]

Set items can't be ethereal. But it's an interesting weapon choice non the less.I was afraid of that. Non-ethereal shaves about 1k off the Demon/Undead damage total, so not quite as impressive.

[aoaa]

You'd rarely hit high defense characters with BF, even with Angelics.

I don't know if you meant only for his setup, but I often use BF against high defense Paladins while they're locked up from stun. It's a good way to apply OWs from afar.

[aoaa]

This is not a Furysin guide. The equipment I listed in that demonstration was just that. A demonstration of how to get over 10k Blade Fury. I expect an actual build will use different gear. Though, for armor, Fortitude is the only thing I would consider using, ladder or not.


I hope that wasn't directed towards PvP.

[Ceramic Weasel]

I don't know if you meant only for his setup, but I often use BF against high defense Paladins while they're locked up from stun. It's a good way to apply OWs from afar.I use BF on my Ghost sometimes just to get people to move. Smiters mostly. The hit rate is crap, and it locks me in place, but when they're not taking the offensive these things don't really matter, and like you say, I can (eventually) deliver OW.

I don't believe a pure Furysin is viable for PvP, however, since even with heaps of AR gear (Fool's claw, Angelics, Visionary) you're not going to get much more than 6-7k AR. This will make it difficult to hit high defense characters unless they're running, in which case you really don't want to be going through BF's long windup and getting locked in place. LLD is the possible exception to this.

Of course, I could be wrong. I've never really tried it. But again, this isn't a Furysin guide, just an analysis of the skill with a view to maximizing it's damage. Hence, Fortitude.

[Sass]

I don't believe a pure Furysin is viable for PvP.Ever seen a beached whale? :)

And he meant fort not for pvp. BF maybe, but it's....strange....but oddly effective.

[5zigen]

I've already done some calculations for this based on onderduiker's tests. Using the same equipment as the 10k Furysin example, a level 40 Sentinel should do 6,347 damage. While I haven't tested it myself, onderduiker's tests show that it does use AR, but unlike BF, it gets the +%AR boost from CM.

Also, as you said, it has a 25 frame nextdelay, so its damage potential is further reduced. I suppose the optimal use for it would be against tightly packed groups of monsters, with a long enough path so that it takes at least 1 second to complete a circuit. I think I'd rather max out Death Sentry.


I was thinking more of a pure blade sentinel focused build (even though it forecloses the use of death sentry, to some extent) at the exclusion of blade fury.

A setup like...
Fury Eth Claw w/ +3 (if that's possible) or +3 traps +3 sentinel claw
Fort armor
Pheonix shield (won't proc firestorm)
Gore riders
CoA w/ 2x 40% ed jewels (or +3 traps w/ 2x 40% ed jewels circlet)
Highlords Ammy.

I guess maybe it's still entirely pointless, but I wonder how it would work in general.

Also, How would Lance Guard w/ 40% ed jewel stack up to Tiamats w/ 40% ed jewel and 80% ed Mosers? (assuming you aren't Deadly Strike capped)

[Ceramic Weasel]

Perhaps not entirely pointless. The ability to use Phoenix is a redeeming (pun not intended) quality of Blade Sentinel. With the above setup, 175/90 str/dex, a lvl 87 Might merc, and lvl 40 BS (probably requires an inventory full of Trap GCs), we get the following:

Stats Bonus = 1.98
Lvl 40 Blade Sentinel = 181 avg
Lvl 28 Claw Mastery = +143%
Lvl 27 Might (Merc) = +300%
Fortitude = +300%
Phoenix = +400%
Jewels = +80%
Chance of double damage = 22+(1-22/100)*(33+33+15) = 85%

Weapon Half = 219.5 * (1 + 1.98 + (300+400+80+300+143) / 100) * 1.85 * 0.375 ~= 2316
Blade Sentinel Half = 181 * (1 + 1.98 + (300+400+80+300+143) / 100) * 1.85 ~= 5093

Total damage per Blade Sentinel = 7,409

That, of course, is subject to 25 frame nextdelay and a 2 second casting delay. Not that impressive against a single target, but against groups it could still work.

[Rawness]

A Jah'ed upgraded ethereal Heastriker should be pretty sweet... My question is: How does it do damage wise?

[Kordova]

whats your take on an edestructionDemblade?

*edit* ahh i didnt think of the reduced dmg from CTC's procing.

[Ghoulz]

So deadly strike is important. What's the best weapon if you can't afford eDeath zerker?

[Kordova]

Imo the upped headstriker is a decent choice, i wouldnt jah it tho, prolly ber for the cb. i use one on a lld build that failed, so im lvling it up all the way to 90, its 46 now and uses headstriker, with very good results...needs ML and LL though.


(Eth Would be ok also, no zod required.

[5zigen]

Imo the upped headstriker is a decent choice, i wouldnt jah it tho, prolly ber for the cb. i use one on a lld build that failed, so im lvling it up all the way to 90, its 46 now and uses headstriker, with very good results...needs ML and LL though.


(Eth Would be ok also, no zod required.

for a weapon to really shine as far as BF goes, Jah is probably the best rune you can use.

ITD is the best mod you can get as there are no other skills that increase blade fury AR.

[Ceramic Weasel]

I hadn't thought of Lanceguard, but yes it is a very good choice of shield if your DS/CS isn't already maxed out.

Headstriker has all the DS you'll ever need, but very little else. Seeing as how DS is capped at 100%, I'm not sure it's really worthwhile. With just Gores and a Lanceguard, any 'Fury' claw can get 75% chance of doing double damage.

Lvl 25 Claw Mastery (22% CS): 22+(1-22/100)*(33+15+20) = 75%

With the added bonus of CM +%ed an ethereal Fury Suwayyah easily outdamages an ethereal Headstriker. It's pretty good as a temporary weapon, but I'd set the bar higher for end-game gear.

Destruction is a poor choice. The only 1H weapon it'll go into is a Phase Blade, so it's already off to a bad start. Then all the CTCs with casting delays render it almost useless.

As for the eDeath Zerker... When you punch the numbers into the equation, an ethereal Fury Suwayyah with +3 BF staffmod actually comes out on top. It's only the 50% CB that gave Death the edge in the live tests. By it's very nature, CB can't be factored into the equation since it depends entirely on what you're attacking.

The best cheap alternative to Death would probably be Fleshripper, socketed with an Eth, Jah or Lo, depending on what you can afford and personal preference. Lacerator also does okay if you can solve the whole AR issue.

I personally prefer claws, particularly if you're going to skimp on +%ed on other equipment. If you can't get a decent amount of off-weapon enhanced damage, investing skill points into BF just isn't worthwhile.

[onderduiker]

ITD is the best mod you can get as there are no other skills that increase blade fury AR.
Although Claw Mastery's +% AR doesn't apply to Blade Fury, that of other skills like Enchant, Blessed Aim, Fanaticism and Heart of Wolverine does: +% AR from items also applies.

This is because CM applies a different stat (passive_mastery_melee_th) to the other skills and items (item_tohit_percent).

[Kordova]

ITD is the most important mod pvm i belive, but it is useless in pvp, Btw i got on my Bf sin and she is a beast at hld's. max block, max dr, high 80's or 90s fhr, near 8k dmg. Bs(sentinal) is REALLLY affective vs blizz sorcs, witch give me the most trouble, even with raven/snowclash.(fade used not bos)

i suggest this build for anyone who likes noncookie builds and enjoys highly versitile chars.

[Ceramic Weasel]

Perhaps I was too quick in dismissing Headstriker. After playing with the numbers some more, I see that with particularly high levels of BF (40+) and huge amounts of off-weapon +%ed (820%++), the extra 20-30% DS begins to overtake the moderate benefits of CM. Still, it's a balancing act. DS is useless without +ed% to make it shine.

i got on my Bf sin and she is a beast at hld's.I'm delighted at the prospect of a Furysin kicking butt in PvP, but I have to remain skeptical.

Perhaps the people you fought just weren't very good, or were caught completely offguard by your unusual build? Is it possible that when you started throwing shuriken and Blade Sentinels around, your opponents just laughed so hard that they got careless and died? These aren't the sort of skills that I would expect to do well in the fast-paced environment of HLDs. Anyone with a decently fast teleport or more than 20k defense shouldn't have a problem beating a bladesin if they were taking it seriously.

But I'm far from an expert on this, so I'd really like to hear about your PvP experiences. Specifically, the equipment setup and tactics that you use.

[theBanger]

for a weapon to really shine as far as BF goes, Jah is probably the best rune you can use.

ITD is the best mod you can get as there are no other skills that increase blade fury AR.

I've been messing around with the numbers on a furysin for a while, (since probably about 2 months or so ago), and I'm surprised why no one has yet to make any mention about CoS with BF, as that was my very first consideration for solving the AR issue.

Originally I considered CoS because I thought that BF being a one point wonder and all, would better benefit from extra points in CoS rather then itself. As it turns out, BF isn't just a 1 point wonder. But even still, BF does not gain an AR bonus from itself, hence the problem of hitting stuff. Enter CoS; at level 28 the -def% caps at -95%, and lasts 35 seconds. Since so few monsters have +def%, -95% will literally give you 95% chance to hit. ( Or something like that.) Level 28 does not seem hard to hit for a twinked sin, and even lower levels of CoS in untwinked could still help huge. If making an untwinked furysin, I would consider maxing this skill for sure.

In PvP, the duration works out well because constantly casting CoS would make you vulnerable to attacks, and make it more difficult to attack. This would not help against some classes, but slay most others. Barbs and Dins might rape you, but I don't think Blade Fury is the skill of choice in dealing with BvCs or smiters anyway. In PvM the duration can be used to your advantage, simply round up as many monsters onto the screen as you can, then cast CoS, and fury away. Also, I'm not saying that CoS makes AR useless, I would still consider having as much as you can, especially against masses of stone skinned monsters, just mentioning this because Jah seems an awful waste to use when this option is right there, and won't work on these bosses either.

[Ceramic Weasel]

I use CoS almost exclusively as my "curse" of choice, and cast it at the beginning of every battle. The problem with this skill, however, is that you can't cast it again until the timer runs out on the last one you cast. At level 28, 35 seconds is a looong time to be waiting around, particularly when you're killing things so quickly with a high damage BF. I get frustrated even with the 15-20 second timer on my 1pt +skills CoS.

The other problem is that the -% will first attempt to reduce the skill enhancements of your enemy. This makes it fairly useless in PvP, because that Paladin with the level 48 Holy Shield isn't going to be reduced to 5% of his defense, but instead the bonus he gets from HS will go from being +730% to +635%.

One way around this might be to use a Shadow Warrior, since they can cast a separate CoS, which can then be overridden by your own. That way, if you take turns, you can effectively half the waiting time between casts. If you're willing to put up with these eccentricities, then yes, it can certainly solve your AR needs.

[Sass]

I'm delighted at the prospect of a Furysin kicking butt in PvP, but I have to remain skeptical.

Perhaps the people you fought just weren't very good, or were caught completely offguard by your unusual build? Is it possible that when you started throwing shuriken and Blade Sentinels around, your opponents just laughed so hard that they got careless and died? These aren't the sort of skills that I would expect to do well in the fast-paced environment of HLDs. Anyone with a decently fast teleport or more than 20k defense shouldn't have a problem beating a bladesin if they were taking it seriously.

But I'm far from an expert on this, so I'd really like to hear about your PvP experiences. Specifically, the equipment setup and tactics that you use.I think you'd actually be surprised at a well built beached whale.

[Ghoulz]

Although Claw Mastery's +% AR doesn't apply to Blade Fury, that of other skills like Enchant, Blessed Aim, Fanaticism and Heart of Wolverine does: +% AR from items also applies.

This is because CM applies a different stat (passive_mastery_melee_th) to the other skills and items (item_tohit_percent).

Would might or blessed aim from merc be better for BF?

[onderduiker]

ITD is the most important mod pvm i belive, but it is useless in pvp, Btw i got on my Bf sin and she is a beast at hld's. max block, max dr, high 80's or 90s fhr, near 8k dmg. Bs(sentinal) is REALLLY affective vs blizz sorcs, witch give me the most trouble, even with raven/snowclash.(fade used not bos)
Although -% Target Defence and Ignore Target Defence apply to Blade Fury and Shield, they do not apply to Sentinel: if Sentinel is used regularly, + to Attack Rating, +% AR, - Monster Defence Per Hit, - Defence from Inner Sight and -% (Enhanced) Defence from Cloak of Shadows, Battle Cry and Conviction would be preferable.



Enter CoS; at level 28 the -def% caps at -95%, and lasts 35 seconds. Since so few monsters have +def%, -95% will literally give you 95% chance to hit. ( Or something like that.)



Also, I'm not saying that CoS makes AR useless, I would still consider having as much as you can, especially against masses or stone skinned monsters, just mentioning this because Jah seems an awful waste to use when this option is right there, and won't work on these bosses either.The only monsters with +% Enhanced Defence are Ancients buffed by Madawc's Shout: the Stone Skin modifier doubles a Unique monster's defence before any +% ED is applied, so level 28 Cloak of Shadow's -95% ED will reduce a Stone Skin Unique monster's defence to 5% as well... unless it's a Stone Skin Ancient buffed by Shout, or one of the following boss monsters (to which CS doesn't apply at all):


Blood Raven
Griswold
Andariel
Radament
Summoner
Duriel
Mephisto
Izual
Diablo
Putrid Defilers
Nihlathak
Baal

Unlike Curses, CS does apply to Possessed and immobile units like Gargoyle Traps and Tentacle Beasts (although only its -% ED applies: it won't blind them).

Against targets without +% ED, -95% ED can have the same effect as multiplying total AR by 20 (this is after +% AR is applied, so combining as little as +100% AR with -95% ED can have the same effect as +3,900% AR, or multiplying base AR by 40).

[Ghoulz]

For a BF build, would maxing venom and Bsentinel be wise? Or maybe 10 points or so into death sentry.

And would it be better to use trap gcs, or dmg charms?

I got another question. Is the halo(the part of the skill that keeps people and monsters in a stunlock after the stun duration expires) duration from mind blast fixed or does it increase in level? I was thinking that maybe using trangs gloves and spirit shield would give mind blast a good casting rate for use against stronger monsters that would overwhelm your merc.

[Kordova]

so any light on if throwing weapons use thrown or one handed dmg.

[DDadams]

I joined this forum just to post here because NOW I'm intrigued.

I have a spare set of 37x3/12+/12+life sc's on useast scnl.

I was wondering if those charms would affect blade fury and the differences in pvp damage from 37x of those + torch/anni with maxed venom/blade fury/claw mastery (Using eth fury suwayyah and fort)

VS

9xshadow charms/10x3/xx/xx's with torch/anni and same gear


PVP wise of course.

Which would cause more damage?

[deathwinger]

Someone pointed me towards this thread from d2jsp. I'm not sure if u guys allow to link to guides from there or not, but I wrote a guid efor ummm exactly this kinda sin, before u made this post by a bit. I don't care about pvm at all so its all pvp focused, using really high dmg blade fury & blade sentinel, for both regular dueling and as a TG char (using lbade sentinels).

my gear was ummm:
eth chaos suwayyah (does a little more overall dmg than eth fury im pretty sure, at least with blade fury)
enigma/fortitude switch
phoenix monarcch
rare circlet with fcr / sockets with +80% ed and/or guillaimes (cham'd)
angelics set, or ravens/highlords
trangs/arachs
gore riders

inventorywise, trap gcs add WAY more than those +3 max scs.
think of it this way. each +1 damage added in the skill is equivalent to 1.33 weapon damage on blade fury, or 2.66 weapon damage on blade sentinel. And thats really all there is to figuring out ur overall damage, just multiply ur +skill dmg and add it together like it was +min/max, then divide the total result by the penalty

so um, trap skillers adds +8 blade fury, +5 blade sentinel. Thats like 10.4 damage blade fury, +13.3 blade sentinel. Except that those +3 maxers only add 1.5 avg damage each. So its:

10.4 // 13.3 damage
vs
4.5 // 4.5 damage

so um trap skillers add WAY more dmg, and are cheaper.

[deathwinger]

and um for eth fury suwayyah vs eth chaos suwayah, look at this:

with the gear i list, u get umm +1100% or so %ed, so 12x the damage modifier. With 158/223 fury/sentinel base damage, my total damages end up as:

Eth Suwayyah:
Fury: 5871 physical + 353 magic + 666 venom, 46% chance for 2x crit = 9591
Sent: 3494 physical + 177 magic + 333 venom, 46% chance for 2x crit = 5311

Eth Fury:
Fury: 4953 physical + 666 venom, 74% chance for 2x crit = 9284
Sent: 3034 physical + 333 venom, 74% chance for 2x crit = 5613


so um.... slightly worse fury dmg an slightly higher sent dmg from fury. BUT if u throw on highlords, the deadly strike wont stack so hot, so chaos would do way better. but um, i like magic damage lols, cuz it does 2x in pvp if they had 50% dr

[Ceramic Weasel]

Would might or blessed aim from merc be better for BF?AFAIK, Might is the only merc aura that'll advance beyond lvl 20 or so. It adds a considerable amount of off-weapon +ed% that is extremely difficult to replace. On the other hand, there are a several options available to solve the AR issue besides a BA merc.

Edit: Though a BA merc wielding Pride will accomplish the same thing

For a BF build, would maxing venom and Bsentinel be wise? Or maybe 10 points or so into death sentry.

And would it be better to use trap gcs, or dmg charms?

I got another question. Is the halo ... duration from mind blast fixed or does it increase in level?Venom is at 3/4 damage on BF, and on successive hits on the same target it'll get re-applied every 6 frames. So, with the exception of the last hit, it's reduced to about 45% of it's listed skill damage. Blade Sentinel does okay in certain situations, I gave my summary of it's damage and potential usefulness in an earlier post, but Death Sentry is by far my favourite of the three.

+3 max dmg scs are applied to the weapon half of the equation, so suffer the 3/4 penalty. As deathwinger says, it's an easy enough comparison:

1x Trap GC = +8 average base damage
3x +3max SCs = +3.375 average base damage

The duration of Mind Blast stun goes up with levels (why ghosts max it), but so does it's chance to convert, which can be a bit annoying when you're trying to kill things.


so any light on if throwing weapons use thrown or one handed dmg.I just tested this. Strangely, BF uses the thrown damage of throwing weapons.


...using really high dmg blade fury & blade sentinel, for both regular dueling and as a TG char (using lbade sentinels).

my gear was...Town guarding is something that mentally challenged 10 year olds do because they lack the skill required to win a duel any other way. So I'll just pretend you didn't say that.

With your listed setup, wearing 2x Angelic rings, your AR will be:
BF ~= 2.6k
BS ~= 10k (depending on CM lvl)
Edit: +700 or so BS AR from inherent skill bonus

If your circlet has a visionary mod those numbers increase to around 5k and 13.3k* respectively. 2.6k AR will rarely hit any character unless they're naked or running, and since BF and BS don't seek their targets, it seems as though this build is limited to only hitting people dumb enough to run into the Blade Sentinels.

*Edit: Added +5 BS AR per lvl

I maintain my doubts about the effectiveness of BF (and BS to a lesser extent) in GM duels, but I'm more than happy to have someone demonstrate it in game.

I think the magic damage from Chaos does 258/129 damage with BF/BS, but yes, Chaos will generally do more unless you make Fury in a +3 BF/BS eth Suwayyah. DR, of course, would change that.

[onderduiker]

Someone pointed me towards this thread from d2jsp. I'm not sure if u guys allow to link to guides from there or not, but I wrote a guid efor ummm exactly this kinda sin, before u made this post by a bit.
I found 'The Fisherwoman Guide: An Bladesin Build' in the Strategy and Guides sub-forum of d2jsp's Discussion and Guides forum, posted on 1 July 2009: Ceramic Weasel posted this thread on 13 July 2009, and both of you appear to have been inspired by the recent update to the Arreat Summit on 15 June 2009.

They say two weeks is a long time in politics...


Incidentally, deathwinger, thanks for linking to the Amazon Basin Wiki's Traps page in your d2jsp guide... a courtesy not extended in inkanddagger's Melee Range: A Picture Guide V2.0, which lifted both images and text from that Wiki's Melee range and Knockback pages without acknowledgement. :unimpressed:

[DDadams]

Would the AR difference be worth the damage from 37x3/xx/xx's to 9xtrap GC's with 10x 3/xx/xx's?

I'm torn on what to do..

[theBanger]

Would the AR difference be worth the damage from 37x3/xx/xx's to 9xtrap GC's with 10x 3/xx/xx's?

I'm torn on what to do..

Depends on your objectives.

If your searching to take down hammers, sorcs, and zons, then in these cases more AR would be optimal. However, if your looking to take out windies or necs, then I think the added damage from traps is more effective. I would keep a few good AR charms in the stash for sure, you know the ones with 130 something attack rate.

Just some numbers because I'm a dork with nothing better to do (your welcome):

Eth Suwayyah reqs. 89 dex - 430 AR (89*5 - 15 I think)
Single or duel Angelics at level 90 - 1330 AR single (250 ravenfrost), 2160 AR dual
Say 5 small charms with 3/20/x (you may want 5 for res, or FHR, or something) - 100 AR
Visionary Mod on circ - 90% AR
Fury claw (I think from gul rune) - 20%
Would give............ 3906 AR single ring, and........ 5649 AR duel ring.
Remember that your CoS will minus some defense, as will Fury, but I won't facter that in b/c it will take forever and I have to eat soon.

With 5 AR grand charms:

Eth Suwayyah reqs. 89 dex - 430 AR
Single or duel Angelics at level 90 - 1330 AR single, 2160 AR dual
Say 5 SCs with 3/20/x 5 GCs with 130 - 750 AR
Visionary Mod on circ - 90% AR
Fury claw (I think from gul rune) - 20%
Would give............ 5271 AR single ring, and........ 7014 AR duel ring.

Of course these numbers can go on and on changing gear and stats around. I still stand by my original statement that you will be raped by smiters and barbs, AR is just one of the many issues in those cases.

[Ceramic Weasel]

They say two weeks is a long time in politics...Curse my obsessive pedanticism and weeks of redundant testing!

Having read deathwinger's guide though, I have to say that it's a very different kind of assassin to the one I had in mind. Not that this is any kind of guide for a particular build. I'll leave those for other people to write.

[deathwinger]

I found 'The Fisherwoman Guide: An Bladesin Build' in the Strategy and Guides sub-forum of d2jsp's Discussion and Guides forum, posted on 1 July 2009: Ceramic Weasel posted this thread on 13 July 2009, and both of you appear to have been inspired by the recent update to the Arreat Summit on 15 June 2009.

Ter be more precise, I knew the person who wrote that update, and helped him with it.

But yes inkndagger could use a few lessons

[Ghoulz]

Well im sold on Fury. I don't even have an eth one yet and im already killing alot of things in hell with a single blade.

[onderduiker]

Ter be more precise, I knew the person who wrote that update, and helped him with it.


These are all the verifiable sources of this Blade skills information of which I'm aware:


DATE POSTED POSTER THREAD/TOPIC/PAGE LOCATION
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________
13 July 2009 Ceramic Weasel Blade Fury Analysis diii.net's Assassin forum
1 July 2009 deathwinger The Fisherwoman Guide d2jsp's Strategy and Guides sub-forum
15 June 2009 Nebu Traps Arreat Summit
10 February 2009 Tellemena The Blademaster Amazon Basin's Assassin Room
27 July 2008 onderduiker Traps Amazon Basin Wiki
17 July 2008 TitanSeal Blade Fury Sin Amazon Basin's Assassin Room
27 May 2008 onderduiker Is Blade Shield a 1 point wonder? Amazon Basin's Assassin Room
That's not to say there aren't other possible sources, particularly on other sites and in other languages (I believe TitanSeal is German, or at least German-speaking).

[deathwinger]

you'd have to ask GFraizer directly, then

[bluewiind]

Very interesting thread...tnx CW. The Vlld sounds intriguing. What would be a good weapon for lev 9 to lets say 15 for BF?

[Sass]

You cant Vlld...it's a lvl 18 skill...

[bluewiind]

lol, details, details, so humor me. Lets substitude Lld lev 18-21, what weapon comes to mind?

[crawlingdeadman]

a new thread.

[bluewiind]

Sigh, I hate when no one wants to play, I thought since this is the best current BF thread around and Lld was mentioned before this would be a good place to discuss this. I guess I was mistaken Sorry Crawlingdeadman.

[crawlingdeadman]

eh, i'll contribute to an lld thread, but it's kinda going into another area for this thread...

[deathwinger]

You cant Vlld...it's a lvl 18 skill...

blade sentinel, doofus
you can hit upwards of 160 blade sentinel damage @ level 9, 200 @ level 12.

Combined with large amounts of FRW & psychic hammer, this compares quite favorably to a sin who deals like 200 average damage TS 3/4 of the time, and 800 average damage TS 1/4 of the time, at melee range

[bluewiind]

blade sentinel, doofus
you can hit upwards of 160 blade sentinel damage @ level 9, 200 @ level 12.

Combined with large amounts of FRW & psychic hammer, this compares quite favorably to a sin who deals like 200 average damage TS 3/4 of the time, and 800 average damage TS 1/4 of the time, at melee range

Thats more like it. I never had a low lev dueler but I am familiar with the general gear, socketed everything with +dam jewels, some of the low lev uniques and set items but I am wondering what a good wep might be for a BF build. Cleglaw's Tooth, The Gnasher Hand Axe come to mind but I am sure there are others.....

[deathwinger]

-.-
have you not read this thread? the damage is greatly boosted by your stats & claw mastery, which you only get using a claw. There is a thread where I weighed the best possible level 9 bladesin gear, but it was extremely hazy which set of jewels produced the best results. It ends up as a mix of +% ed and +damage jewels, depending on what you can afford.

specifically, this testing:
Damage = 0.075 * (#ED'ERS + 12.3) * (#MAX'ERS * DMGPERMAX + 83.33333)
Damage = 0.075 * (X + 1.23) * (Y * Z + 83.33333)
X = 8 - Y (as we have 8 sockets)
Damage = T(Y,Z) = -0.075 * (Y - 20.3) * (Y * Z + 83.33333)
Now for Z = 4.5 (9 max damage jewels give 4.5 average):
Damage = T(Y) = -.3375*Y^2 + 0.60125 * Y + 126.875
T(X) = Damage(Number of Max Jewels)
T(0) = 126.875
T(1) = 127.139
T(2) = 127.728
T(3) = 125.641
(anything further is unnecessary)
So using plain +9 maxers, I should have 7x 20% ed jewels, 1x 9 maxer, for optimal damage. This +9 max, however, could only be put into the shield, as otherwise it would experience the %ED/MAX bug with the other jewels in the item, wouldn't it?
Otherwise, if that bug doesn't work like that, 2x +9 maxers, 6x +20% ed'ers, is the way to go

Now for +14 maxers:
T(Y) = -.525 (Y - 20.3)(Y + 11.904751908)
T(0) = 126.875
T(1) = 130.758
T(2) = 133.590
T(3) = 135.373
T(4) = 136.105
T(5) = 135.788
So 4x +14 maxers, 4x +20% ed jewels

Now for +8-14 maxers:
T(Y) = -0.825 (Y - 20.3)(Y + 7.5757575)
T(0) = 126.875
T(1) = 136.548
T(2) = 144.570
T(3) = 150.943
T(4) = 155.665
T(5) = 158.738
T(6) = 160.160
T(7) = 159.933
T(8) = 158.055

So 6x +8-14 jewels, and 2x +20% ed jewels, is the ideal setup.

So a cheap bladesin build might look like this:
ethereal claws with 3x damage jewels in them
gothic plate with 4x 20% ed, possibly -15% reqs jewels
biggins bonnet with a 20% ed jewel
sigons shield with a +max jewel
bloodfists
deaths belt OR lenymo (lenymo very nice for running duels)
rare amulet
2x nagelrings

[Reelix]

"200 @ level 12"

As opposed to a +Max Dam charger who deals

"1500 @ level 12"

:)

Oh, and for lowish level gear (Ignoring jewels for now), I'd recommend Hellplague (Sword - Gives ALOT of Fire damage)

It might not work with Claw Mastery (Do that later), but the Fire Damage is epic for Blade Fury :)

[wingdeather]

"200 @ level 12"

As opposed to a +Max Dam charger who deals

"1500 @ level 12"

a charger would be not even remotely close to VLLD
by LLD101 rules, trapsins are allowed to go up to level 12. However, these rules were written with no comprehension of how blade sentinel works, and thus are hilariously broken. This is why I'd recommend a level 9 bladesin; its mostly as effective, but you won't get people complaining you're level 12.

A level 12 charger, on the other hand, would never be able to duel level 9's.
And hellplague is probably the worst idea I've heard in a while O_o. You are aware that bonesnap exists, right? Its quite possible to get a mediocre damage blade sentinel/fury using ethereal upgraded bonesnap, which is easy enough to acquire. Its not as good as high end claws / etc at level 30, but it suffices.

[Reelix]

"A level 12 charger, on the other hand, would never be able to duel level 9's."

A level 12 charger almost 1-hit my Lvl 32 Paladin (Who later got TPPK'd - But that's irrelevant)

Lvl 1 -> 11 For might + Req's, 12 for charge, piles of Damage Charms and jewels, and those lvl 12 paladins hurt :<

You get piles of the fast little buggers on US-West Hardcore Ladder - Come take a look :p

[wingdeather]

"A level 12 charger, on the other hand, would never be able to duel level 9's."
A level 12 charger almost 1-hit my Lvl 32 Paladin (Who later got TPPK'd - But that's irrelevant)

I'm not sure if you understand. A level 12 charger is Not VLLD
VLLD is level 9 for almost every class, but a few are allowed to go to level 12, due to being underpowered @ 9- feral & maul druids are an excellent example. However, nobody, anywhere regards a level 12 paladin using charge as VLLD. They fall into the exact same bracket as level 18 paladins, and there is no reason to stop at level 12 and not go up to 18.

The old VLLD101 rules state trappers as being able to go up to level 12, but with regards to the overpoweredness of bladesins, level 9 is plenty.

[Ceramic Weasel]

Oh, and for lowish level gear (Ignoring jewels for now), I'd recommend Hellplague (Sword - Gives ALOT of Fire damage)

It might not work with Claw Mastery (Do that later), but the Fire Damage is epic for Blade Fury :)BF is a level 18 skill, so no good for VLLD.
Elemental damage is fairly mediocre on BF, due to it being at 3/4 effectiveness (or 3/8 with 2H). Though, I suppose if you're stuck using a lvl 1 BF, Claw Mastery won't do you much good.

Please try to keep this on topic, guys. I don't know how deathwinger managed to get banned, but heeding the warnings of moderators is probably a good idea.

[DEATHWlNGER]

BF is a level 18 skill, so no good for VLLD.
Elemental damage is fairly mediocre on BF, due to it being at 3/4 effectiveness (or 3/8 with 2H). Though, I suppose if you're stuck using a lvl 1 BF, Claw Mastery won't do you much good.

Blade sentinel is a VLLD compatible skill, and is quite viable, and will win pretty much any duel that allows running/etc.

[Ceramic Weasel]

Blade sentinel is a VLLD compatible skill, and is quite viable, and will win pretty much any duel that allows running/etc.It's a shame that this is a thread about Blade Fury, then. :p

[CoryIndigo]

Blade fury & sentinel interact the same way with %ed, which is the point of the thread, is it not?

[Kordova]

no mr. banned, the point of this thread is to fully understand how dmg is applied by a very complex skill, or to tickle ceramics ego...either way sentinel is a totally different skill

[Ceramic Weasel]

no mr. banned, the point of this thread is to fully understand how dmg is applied by a very complex skill, or to tickle ceramics ego...Definitely the second one. :smug:

I think CDM was just pointing out the off-topic nature of VLLD Bladesins, since that's a topic entirely about Blade Sentinel.

[AnimeCraze]

I am thinking of a glass cannon famine BF sin. I presume if I use a legendary mallet, I get 1.1% boost pre point in strength, what do you guys think?

[theBanger]

I am thinking of a glass cannon famine BF sin. I presume if I use a legendary mallet, I get 1.1% boost pre point in strength, what do you guys think?

If you use claws instead of a legendary mallet, you can pump dex instead of str. The benefit of this would be the AR bonus you would receive for from dex, (5AR for 1dex) and that you could use claw mastery to boost your damage further. Although you will only receive 75% of your points as damage, the AR and CM out weigh the benefit of an extra few % from strength alone. As this thread shows, damage from BF itself, is more powerful than from your weapon alone.

[AnimeCraze]

If you use claws instead of a legendary mallet, you can pump dex instead of str. The benefit of this would be the AR bonus you would receive for from dex, (5AR for 1dex) and that you could use claw mastery to boost your damage further. Although you will only receive 75% of your points as damage, the AR and CM out weigh the benefit of an extra few % from strength alone. As this thread shows, damage from BF itself, is more powerful than from your weapon alone.I guess, and I might even hope to achieve max block on a monarch, even though that probably won't save me at all. But Famine has virtually no immunity problems with infinity merc.

[Ceramic Weasel]

Famine is actually a fairly decent weapon, but as theBanger points out, it doesn't make the best use of the skill damage. It does, however, have much higher weapon damage. If I take the numbers I gave in that final example, subbed the Fury out for a perfect (185%ed), ethereal Legend Mallet Famine, and boosted Str up to 190, I get the following:

Stats Bonus = 2.09
Elemental = 590.5 avg
Lvl 37 Blade Fury = 238 avg
Mercenary skill ed% = +300%
Off-weapon item %ed = +500%
Chance of double damage = 32+15+15 = 62%

Weapon Half = ((402 * (1 + 2.09 + (300+500) / 100) * 1.62) + 590.5) * 0.75 ~= 5,859
Blade Fury Half = 238 * (1 + 2.09 + (300+500) / 100) * 1.62 ~= 4,275

Average Damage per shuriken = 10,134

It's pretty close. Requires more strength, but no investment in Claw Mastery. But there are a few factors to consider:-

1) Perfect ethereal Legend Mallet Famine's are much harder to come by
2) Fury is by no means the highest damaging claw around. A good rare is probably a better choice.
3) The mercenary information in this thread is incorrect. I was using the 1.10 Mercenary Guide (http://strategy.diii.net/news.php?id=580) provided at this site, but it's either outdated or just plain wrong. The maximum level aura a Might Mercenary can have is 20, before +skills. This means that there's more incentive for the Blessed Aim + Pride mercenary combination, which favours physical damage over elemental.

[krischan]

After taking a brief look at this excellent thread, I decided to continue with my PvM BF assassin. For me, the essence seems to be that the BF bonus is subject to off-weapon %ed, so I have to revise my plans on the gear a bit (in particular after discovering that I followed the recommendations of a guide which was written before we had the second bunch of 1.10 runewords :rolleyes:).

Keep in mind that this is for a PvM character and that I'm a bit stingy, so no godly assassin claws or 6 HR runewords like LW. That also means that +life/vit aren't as important as in PvP. I prefer maxed resists. Also, I haven't read all of the thread, so a few questions are probably answered already. Anyway, a summary would be really useful, as this thread is a bit long.

Weapon: Eth Stormlash+Jah... or better a Death ettin axe ? I won't pay 6 HRs for LW or buy a godly claw, I'm too stingy for that. BTW, the eth Stormlash is self-found, that's why I started that furysin after all, so I'm not really willing to exchange it. However, I might consider using Death until she meets the level req of Stormlash, but I would feel a bit silly to switch to Stormlash and then discover that it's worse than Death.

Shield: As off-weapon %ed pays off very well, Tiamat's with a %ed jewel might not be the optimum choice. Better Moser's with two of them ? Headhunter's with three ? Phoenix' ctc druid's firestorm is said to interrupt BF too often, else it would be the ultimate furysin shield, and a 160% monarch seems to lack too much in other respects.

Armor: Fortitude seems to be a must here.

Helm: Guillaume's seems to be the best chioce.

Gloves: LoH will add lots of damage to demons, but crafted knockback gloves might be a good idea as well and you don't need the expensive ones with +skills and IAS.

Belt: I'm rather sure that T-God's complete protection from lightning is better in PvM than e.g. Verdungo's.

Boots: I don't see any reasonable alternative to Gores.

Amu: Probably Highlord's, but Metalgrid add lots of ar which might be helpful versus bosses.

Rings: Ravenfrost isn't really necessary, as BF speed is fixed, but it might be helpful to be able to run away quickly and the ar and dex bonus is definitely very useful. Other ring: Dual leech + ar + resists ?

Charms: Will trap skillers pay off well enough or should it be +max charms ? +lightning dmg SCs ? A torch is mandatory and maybe Anni as well.

Merc: nm act 2 offensive (might), but which weapon ? I'm not sure if he will survive with Pride (not enough on-weapon damage). Infinity would only be useful versus bosses (the aura reduces defense rating of enemies). Insight, so I won't need mana leech ? Or simply Obedience for damage + CB ? Armor/Helm: Whatever makes him survive, no help needed.

[kavlor]

Charms: Will trap skillers pay off well enough or should it be +max charms ? +lightning dmg SCs ? A torch is mandatory and maybe Anni as well.

Trappers are better since you gain max and min damage,past level 16 it goes to +8min+8max per level in BF.This made me look to see what the damage expotential carries onto but it looks it stops at 8 to 8 damage per level.

[AnimeCraze]

The one I have currently is like this:
Weapon: Eth suwayyah fury, it boosts my deadly strike to almost 100%. It also has ignore target defence, life leech, and decent damage.
Shield: 134 ED jewels monarch, I had a rare jewel in that that's too good to pass up, I only gave up a few % ED's and in return gives my 24 fire resist. It also has +16 str in total, ie. the ED total is 146%. With this, I have max block. Yes, you read it right, I have max block with a monarch.
Armor: Fortitude
Helm: Guillaume's, with a rather good jewel too.
Gloves: LoH is just too good.
Belt: Using arach right now for the damage, but am considering a T-gods. IF only razortail works with it......
Boots: Gores, that's obvious.
Amu: Highlord's, for deadly strike.
Rings: Ravenfrost for AR, manald for mana leech, hoping to get the manald replaced eventually.
Charms: Anni, torch, trap, and cold resist SC. The trap boosts my trap damage as well, so the lightning traps are strong enough to kill immunes.

Switch: Eth obedience that my old necro merc has. It gives enchant on kill. Being a glass cannon, she has enough str/dex to hold it.

She has no points in vita or energy, so every point contributes to 0.75% ED. Due to this, she's rather fragile. I have been dying a bit as well, as I have not gotten used to playing with a char with less than 500 life, especially since I skipped the shadow this time around.

Merc uses Reaper's Toll. It absolutely destroys Baal and PI's, if only he doesn't die first.

[Ceramic Weasel]

Weapon: Eth Stormlash+Jah... or better a Death ettin axe ?Depends on your playstyle, and whether you intend to combine with kicks, etc. When I tried this weapon I didn't get much use out of the static field, since I had knockback + CoS and was sniping everything from far away. Death will do much more damage, but you may have issues with AR. If you're willing to max Claw Mastery, there are some nice options down that route.

Shield: Better Moser's with two of them ? Headhunter's with three ?Definitely. The shields I used in my testing were just for damage calculation purposes. I wonder what the odds of a Jeweler's Monarch of Deflecting is. :scratchchin:

Helm: Guillaume's seems to be the best chioce.Giant Skull works out pretty well also.

Gloves: LoH will add lots of damage to demonsI've been tinkering with Lava Gout's and a Fool's mod claw recently, but LoH is naturally great for damage.

Charms: Will trap skillers pay off well enough or should it be +max charms ?As kavlor points out, +8 is better than 3 small charms with (3/2)*0.75

Merc: nm act 2 offensive (might), but which weapon ? I'm not sure if he will survive with Pride (not enough on-weapon damage). Infinity would only be useful versus bosses (the aura reduces defense rating of enemies). Insight, so I won't need mana leech ? Or simply Obedience for damage + CB ?You should be able to manage with only a small amount of mana leech (Death has 7%). Infinity may be too costly if you're a bit stingy, and I've recently learnt that Blessed Aim + Pride is probably better for personal improvement anyway. If you can't solve your AR problems, you'll need to build your merc around that (so either Blessed Aim or Infinity). If AR isn't an issue, you've got more options. In either case, you'll want at least one damage aura out of him (so either Might or Pride), and the rest is preference.

[AnimeCraze]

Edit: Nevermind.

[acceleration turkey]

can anyone describe the mechanics of play when using voice of reason with blade fury? does an orb trigger force a red-out of your blade fury and cause you to pause your attack, or are you able to attack unmolested by the casting of a timered skill?

[Ceramic Weasel]

does an orb trigger force a red-out of your blade fury and cause you to pause your attackYes, Orb will interrupt BF (red-out) with the casting delay.

[krischan]

Thanks for the reply!

[Doppel]

Nice thread. Possibly a very dumb question coming up:
Is there any benefit in wielding a second claw when using Blade Fury? In fact, has this been tested?

[Ceramic Weasel]

I knew I missed something. Maxicek's thread (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637936) in the SP forum covers some of this, but there are a few things I really ought to test for myself. As far as I'm aware, the only off-hand weapon mods that work are indirect ones, which don't affect the BF skill in any way:
Indirect mods
These always work regardless of which claw they are on:
- Resists
- FHR
- +Skills
- +Stats like life, mana, strength etc.

[onderduiker]

Is there any benefit in wielding a second claw when using Blade Fury? In fact, has this been tested?
Read this post (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7023626&postcount=5) in the Dual-wielding weapon mods that carry over to both attacks? (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7023626) thread for what should be a complete list of secondary weapon modifiers that apply to the attacks of the primary weapon. The following modifiers on the secondary weapon will increase Blade Fury's damage:


Skill bonuses
Attribute bonuses (Strength and Dexterity)
-% Enemy Resistance

+% Skill Damage will be applied once to Holy Shock and Venom and Enchant when cast, but because BF is a ranged attack there'll be no second application.

[dd_angel]

Is it venom worth to be used with BF ?
Can we kill PI with it in Hell player 8 ?

[Kalkanor]

Is it venom worth to be used with BF ?
Can we kill PI with it in Hell player 8 ?


iam not sure about killing PIs (it prob could)
but it is worth getting because it lasts only .4secs on a monster its done its damage by the time the next blade comes then it starts again^^

[dd_angel]

Han, i see that between each blades, we have 6 fpa, and .4 sec = 10 fpa (see in page 1).
And, the penality is 3/4 for the dommage with venom, again, .4*3/4 = not so much dommage for 6 fpa... i think, am i wrong ?

[Ceramic Weasel]

You are quite right. In fact, on successive BF strikes, Venom deals only 45% of its listed damage, not counting monster resistance and other such modifiers.

60% for the 6 frames out of 10
75% of that for 3/4 penalty

I think it would probably take a long time for Venom to kill the average Physical immune in Hell with /players 8. Especially since most of the physical immune monsters in Hell are also poison immune. Certainly one point in Venom is worthwhile, but maxing it may not be depending on your equipment and other damage sources.

[dd_angel]

So, the only way to remove PI immune, is to use curses like Amp or Dec on strinking ?
In that way, we can't use LT for ll :(

Edit : for somes purpose, i don't see a test with dual phoenix (weapons and shield), is it the ultimate one wich doing the maximum dommages ?

[Kalkanor]

ya a ctc amp weapon or atams amu is prob the best way to get rid of PI
and remember you hit so fast it wont take long for it to go off^^

[Ceramic Weasel]

Edit : for somes purpose, i don't see a test with dual phoenix (weapons and shield), is it the ultimate one wich doing the maximum dommages ?Weapon +%ED does not affect the skill damage of BF, so there's no more damage benefit to a Phoenix weapon than, say, a BOTD. The additional CTC Firestorm, however, will quite thoroughly cripple your rate of fire.

[dd_angel]

Ok, how do you calculate the stats bonus in the formula ?
Edit : Oh, i see, if 1 strong or dextx = .75 %ed so 250 *.75 = 187,5 %ed => 1,87

[omgwtfbbqpwned]

*noob 'Sin here*

I don't have the runes to make 'Fury' and I'll probably never see a rare claw like that.

Is there any way I can get 10k average damage per Shruiken with a non-claw weapon type? =D (I could make 'Chaos', but I would seriously prefer not to.)

I have the runes for 'Death' and I own a near perfect ethereal Stonecrusher. Any of these?

I realize this isn't a guide, and likewise, I'm just looking for numbers here. TIA.

[theBanger]

Eth Ettin Death, max strength say about 400, fortitude armor 300 (nothing comes close to this damage, best other option for damage would be jewelers with enhance damage jewels) something to proc amp, and with crit you could hit 15k.

NUMBERS NUMBERS NUMBERS:

495 * 0.75 = 371 + 103 = 474

8*474*2=7584 with crit

8*474*2*2=15168 crit with amp

(not including merc auras or anything)

I don't need to crunch numbers to tell you that all around EthDeath is better then Eth Stonecrucher.

[Ceramic Weasel]

Well, everything is better with Amp.

Now that I've finished classes for the year, I'll put together a Damage Calculator and link it in my next update.

There are just so many factors that go into damage though, it's difficult to say conclusively that Option1 > Option2, or Option3 will exceed X damage, because that says nothing about what your hit rate will be like, or how much Crushing Blow damage will be dealt.

To illustrate this, even a low ethereal 'Death' Ettin Axe will deal more damage than 'Fury', but without ITD you'll have trouble hitting. You could solve this by using a Blessed Aim merc and equip him with a 'Pride' to make up for the loss of the Might aura, but that's an even more expensive option.

Stonecrusher is alright, but again there's no ITD. An 'Eth' rune would help, but the one used in my tests was socketed with a 'Lo' rune, so keep that in mind when looking at where it ranked. Also note that it was PvP damage, so the 40% crushing blow wasn't working at full effectiveness.

There are other tricks you could try to solve the AR problem, Angelics + Demon Limb, for example, or investing heavily in CoS, but ultimately I think it's about finding a balance that works for you.

The 10k damage setup I listed includes an inventory full of Trap GCs, so it's not what I would consider ideal for PvM. Looking at it again I can see how 'Death' + Blessed Aim/Pride may even be superior. But then, as theBanger points out, there are other ways to increase damage, through pumping strength or using curses... it just depends on what you're willing to sacrifice.

In short, yes there are lots of ways to exceed 10k damage without using a claw type weapon, and eDeath is probably one of the best non-claw weapons to do this with IF you can live without ITD.

[Lloyd]

Ceramic Weasel I have played Diablo II for many years but this is my first assassin. I am planning to build one with twenty points in Dragon Talon, Blade Fury, and Venom with the goal of combining the best aspects of the Warrior Monk with those of a maximized Blade Fury assassin.

My gear will be an ethereal 275% enhanced damage Fleshripper, Gore Rider myrmidon greaves and Andariel's Visage. All other equipment choices are open. My goal for Dragon Talon is an 8/3 attack which, if I calculated correctly, is achievable with Andariel's Visage and a shael rune in the Fleshripper.

My questions concern Blade Fury and they are as follow:

How will switching from Fortitude to Enigma adversely affect the damage of my level thirty Blade Fury with all else being equal? Will the strength I gain offset much of the enhanced damage I will lose? And lastly how much in terms of real damage would Blade Fury gain from equipping an act two mercenary with a Pride rune word that features a level twenty concentration aura ? Thank you for your analysis of Blade Fury in this thread.

[Ceramic Weasel]

As a dagger, Fleshripper doesn't gain as much from strength as many other weapons do. Like a claw, it gets partial bonuses from strength and dexterity. As such, the ~70 strength gained from Enigma translates only to about a 0.52 multiplier, whereas Fortitude adds a 3.0 multiplier.

Assuming no other equipment than the items you mentioned, using the formula that I use in my examples, the difference on a Level 30 BF is around 1,200 damage.

The effectiveness of high level Blade Fury relies quite heavily on off-weapon ED% and Deadly/Critical Strike. Consequentially, damage enhancing auras from a mercenary can play a big role. It's difficult to give numbers without specifics on STR/DEX and other equipment items, but very roughly the total physical damage, excluding CB/OW will probably work out something like:
No Aura Pride+Might
----------------------------
Fortitude | 2,700 5,500
Enigma | 1,500 4,300

[dd_angel]

The advantage with claws (or dagger), is that when you increase your dext, you increase your dammages and you base ar, so i think it's more worthfull to pump dext over strenght...
I've tested the shurisin with a base 150 vita, she has no problem to survive in hell hardcore ladder (the build was with full natalya set, but, my build was not good enough to deals with full pack of strong monster, because i have more strong than dext) :)

[wooginator]

This has been unbelievably informative, thanks so much to Ceramic Weasel and to all of you. I was thinking of making this pvp (like a lot of other people it seems) regardless of its difficulty and the probability that it will fail (I made a pvp leap barb, so you can see how I roll), and I was hoping I could post my gear and skill setup here and get some input. Here's what I was thinking:

Cham'd Guillaumes
Fort
160% ed monarch or maybe phoenix
Eth beast ettin axe (while fury or chaos may do more damage, beast gives you 80% more attack rating which is, as always, desperately needed)
Angelics
Dungos or maybe Arach
Cleglaws for knockback and slow (yes, slow may not be exactly gm, but cmon, I'm operating at something of a disadvantage here)
Gores of course
Torch/Anni and cta/spirit on switch, with a demon limb in the stash for enchant
As many ar charms as I can get my hands on, and hopefully 9x trap gcs

then the skills would be:

20 blade fury
20 blade sentinel
20 venom
15 fade
One point into prereqs and shadow warrior (I'm not much good with mindblast so I was thinking I might let the shadow warrior do it for me if that was viable)
Remaining points into blade shield

Stats would be the usual stat to use gear and then rest into vit.

How does it sound? Please help.

[wooginator]

I would also like to know, if anyone knows (seems fairly simple to test) whether, if I equip a fool's claw on my off-hand and something else on my main hand the attack rating will carry over to my blade fury? Because if not I still have to go with beast over claws.

[Sass]

the fools must be primary.

[wooginator]

Thanks, beast it is then. It's a shame to lose that critical strike, but I need the attack rating. According to my calculator if I use the enchant from demon limb and the 80% from beast's fanat with angelics I'll have at least 10k before charms, and that's really not bad.

[Ceramic Weasel]

I only have limited experience using BF in real PvP situations, and that was with 1pt BF. My feeling is that, even fully optimized, it's not going to perform that well.

The limited range and non-seeking nature of BF suggests that striking your opponents will require more than just good AR. Also, transitioning from movement to attacking and then back again doesn't flow as quickly as it does with other skills, particularly those popular in PvP.

If you intend to try it, however, please post your experiences and opinions to let us know how it turned out.


The gear you list looks pretty good. I hadn't really considered Beast as a source of AR, though I wonder how it compares damage-wise to Baranar's Star (+200% AR), etc.

Phoenix should work better in PvP situations, as striking will be a less frequent occurance, and you'll probably want to be firing in short bursts rather than staying rooted in one spot for too long.

Faster run/walk on your charms may be really helpful, depending on how you plan to play it. I imagined the tactics to be similar to an Amazon, but you could be planning something different.

The frequency at which Shadow Master uses skills is based on the skill level, so you may want to consider putting an extra point or two into Mind Blast if you want her to use it more often.