PvP HC Dueling without Permanent Death

[DonkeyHunter]

The one big problem I have with HC is that PvP dueling is practically non-existent. Many people including myself are not willing to risk losing our hard earned character over a single duel. In turn, we don't duel, and miss out on a large aspect of the game. I hate softcore because I get no satisfaction out of the riskless PvM, yet I find myself playing it just for the PvP. I hope that in D3 they change this so that you can still play HC but have a separate arena for PvP which you don't die permanently. For those who want permanent death dueling there should be a special toggle that lets you switch between non-permanent and permanent death PVP within the arena. I feel that this would draw more people to HC and would give HC players something to look forward to at higher levels aside from grinding.

And a sub-idea to the HC PvP idea would be the possibility of having some type of penalty for dying that would make HC dueling more intense than softcore dueling but without permanent death. Maybe you lose gold, exp, items, etc. Ideas are welcome.

Please comment on this thread and let me know if you feel the same way about this topic.
:nod:

[Abstand]

Perhaps dueling should only bring your health down to 1, once it does, it announces who won. However you would have to be careful about roaming critters and whatnot.

[DonkeyHunter]

Ehh, I wouldnt want it to be left up to chance like that. I think if there were to be a penalty other than permanent death, then it should be something tangible and concrete. Something that would make dying in HC PvP sting, but not wanna make you throw yourself of the top of a building. :crazyeyes:

[Asrrin]

in PvP, everytime you lose and die, you lose one level and you exp is reset to 0 for that level. that would sting and be a substantial loss, but not insurmountable.

[Flux]

I always wanted this in D2 myself, and thought it could easily be paired with arena games. Of course they never got around to enabling arena games in D2, but since there's not going to be PKing in D3, they'll have to have some sort of arena option for PvP to exist. Seems like it would be easy enough to enable hc to enter arena games without permanent death enabled.

That said, I want there to be the option for a "real" HC duel. Even though hardly anyone would ever use it with high level characters, the option should exist to make it a permanent fight. In my dream world I'd throw in a mechanism to wager items on the outcome. (The loser item fountains upon death? He won't be needing them anymore, after all.) And while I'm wishing, how about a system to enable "best of 3/5/7" as well, so one lucky shot or lag spike wouldn't determine the whole outcome.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

It depends on things that we are not aware of. Specifically whether or not group PvP exists, how central to the design of the game PvP is, and how competitive Blizzard intends for the PvP to be.

As it PvP currently exists in D2 I would say that a no death mode is a terrible idea. HC is supposed to be harder, the word "hard" is in the name of the mode for a reason. PvP should not be an exception. Watering it down would make it less fun... even with a death toggle sort of option it kills significance of dueling in HC.

Besides, if people had an alternative it'd be much tricksier to get ears from unprepared folk ~_~


However if Blizzard takes D3's PvP in the direction of WoW's I would agree that an alternative to dying would be almost necessary. I still don't like the death toggle though... I prefer ideas such as PvP only characters for which you either have to unlock gear, or gear is already unlocked, or both. Kind of like GW or WoW on the tourney realms. Not only does it solve the death in PvP option, but it also solves the having to PvM in order to PvP in general problem.

[windforce]

terrible idea.

You carebears just don't quit. HC pvp is the most exciting part of the game. If you are afraid to lose your char then HC is not for you. Blizzard would never implement your idea and if they did I would not buy the game.

[Flux]

HC pvp is the most exciting part of the game.
So exciting that maybe .0001% of hc players actually take part in it!

Well, that's how it was back in the early days of D2C and D2X, at least. I'd very occasionally see someone powering a level 5 through hell to get quest rewards for their LLD plans, but high level dueling was virtually unheard of.

I've not played regularly on the realms in several years though, so I don't know how it is now. It's entirely possible that massive duping has made top level equipment so common that regular HC is too boring boring and easy. Plus with all of the improved rushing techniques high level characters are now so fungible that dueling has become much more common? An activity for the idle (time) rich, who can afford the equipment and character loss.


Blizzard would never implement your idea and if they did I would not buy the game.
You're probably right about them not implementing the idea, since they seldom put in things that make major changes to the games that fans all want. Arena games and guild halls in D2, for instance. As for buying the game... please. You're posting in a forum about the game 2+ years before it's going to be released. You, me, and everyone else here is a guaranteed sale.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

dueling has become much more common?
Probably the opposite really.
Greatly decreased player pool, partly because of age of game, partly from TPPK, means that the number of duels you can find are close to 0. That's for both LLD and HLD.

Gear scanning hacks mean the only duels you will find are from people who have a very good idea of how much damage you can do, combine that with chicken and you'll never get an ear.

Then back to the player pool problem; after you've dueled everyone who was willing to duel you, they'll decide that they'll never ear you either, and after a week or so they'll give up trying. At this point your number of opponents drops off even further and you'll be lucky if you can get a single fight in a day.

Since public games are non-existent you can't even go hunting for the clueless and/or PKKs. You could try PKKing yourself, except the PK has been replaced by the TPPK... you'll definitely run into one, but he won't actually be hostile until he's back safely in town.




But that doesn't matter. HC dueling is STILL the most exciting thing in the game. It's just very difficult to find.

[BrotherRatcliff]

I've been thinking about this for quite a while, actually posted it in a comment on that PvP guest article I think? Anyway here's my thoughts:

You know when people duel in movies somehow it always ends up with one person disabled on the ground and the other person is standing over them with their sword. There is that classic "is he going to kill him?" moment where the hero always decides to let the villain live. I think we should have something similar in HC PvP. When you hit 0 hit points your chr falls to his/her knees and puts themselves at the mercy of your opponent, who then gets to exact a penalty on you.

The penalties could be things like steal an item (at random), loose a level(or more?), disable the chr for an amount of time or take all the persons gold. Just letting them go should also be an option that would allow people to have practice duels between friends with no losses.

Also when you start a duel players should have a "to the death" option which would enable real hardcore dueling for actual grudge matches and people who just want to be, well, hardcore.

How all this would work with team duels I'm not sure, maybe one of the options when you slay an enemy would be to bring one of your own team members back in? The idea of placing a specific wager on the outcome of a duel seems really cool to me. I think on hardcore that wager should be in addition to the normal penalty though, just to differentiate it from softcore.

Overall I'm really exited about the possibilities of dueling arenas in D3 and a real hardcore dueling scene. I, like the OP, am a hardcore player at heart who has been playing softcore recently just for the dueling.

[DonkeyHunter]

Great idea. The winner choosing a penalty would be pretty cool, although I think penalties should be milder so that you can duel more often without losing levels, all your items or all your gold too quickly.

And as for the people who say PvP should stay the same, I say that the players have already voiced their opinion by the fact that barely anyone engages in HC PvP. I'm sure a small minority of people HC duel, but they usually have superior items and just because a few people can spend all their waking time (or ebay money) on superior items doesn't mean the rest of the HC players shouldnt have the oppurtunity to enjoy PvP. I think hardcore is plenty hardcore enough if you can continue to stay alive in PvM and im sure it will be even harder in D3.

[Vitamins]

The one big problem I have with HC is that PvP dueling is practically non-existent.

No it's not, especially in regards to low-level dueling.

The reason why dueling is not as popular as it should be in Hardcore Diablo II is because of hacks and the age of D2.

Many people including myself are not willing to risk losing our hard earned character over a single duel.

Many people are not willing to play Hardcore.

In turn, we don't duel, and miss out on a large aspect of the game.

There's always the Softcore option.

I hate softcore because I get no satisfaction out of the riskless PvM, yet I find myself playing it just for the PvP.

I hate Softcore PVP and PVM because the penalty for your character dying is nonexistent and thus the reward/challenge is nonexistent (for me).

I hope that in D3 they change this so that you can still play HC but have a separate arena for PvP which you don't die permanently.

Let's hope Blizzard doesn't take your advice because I would probably not buy Diablo III if they did. I loved risking my characters playing Hardcore PVP in Diablo II.

For those who want permanent death dueling there should be a special toggle that lets you switch between non-permanent and permanent death PVP within the arena.

Sounds good on paper, but what would happen is no one would ever use the permanent death toggle for PVP because there's absolutely no incentive. Further, what would happen if I wanted to risk my character in a duel, but my opponent didn't? This idea is just as bad as the loot toggle (loot dueling) in Diablo II. Consequently, the Hardcore community would ultimately be left with Softcore PVP in Hardcore mode.

Lastly, I don't see why Flux considers the use of the word carebear in this particular discussion comparable to likening somebody or an opinion to Hitler and/or Nazism (Godwin's Law). Godwin's Law states that there's a positive correlation between the size of an online discussion and the chance that somebody will compare the argument being discussed to Nasism or somebody else to a Nazi. However, this doesn't mean that all comparisons to Hitler, Nazism, or careabears are logical fallacies. A carebear to me is somebody who dislikes PVP conflict, challenge, and risk. In other words, it's the videogame equivalent to calling someone a wussy. But isn't that an accurate response to such a query as the one posed by the original poster? I think so. Granted, there are better arguments against the idea being discussed here, but when you get down to brass tacks, I think the original poster is most certainly a carebear.

[5zigen]

I would like to add in what kind of game system are we assuming?

Are we assuming S&E is in the game? If so then chickenhackers are going to be the primary pvping body in hc pvp (as was the case in D2).

Are we assuming no S&E and no easy portals? Then entering a duel may very well mean that one of the two players WILL BE DEAD at the end. Something that isn't generally the case in D2.

Finally, are we assuming that 1 hit kills will be the norm? Or are we assuming drawn out battles?

Now I know D2 evolved to be based around 1 hit kills with things like synergized upped eth steeldriver chargadins. But it would be pretty unsatisfying with a convergence of some of these elements. For example if you couldn't s&e, couldn't tp, and the enemy could potentially take you out in 1 hit, or viably stunlock you until you are dead, then it seems like this would be very unsatisfying.

Also, what would the incentive be to duel ? none? Some? Ears? Too much of this is up in the air, but I think that a "leave them at 1hp option should be a good one for HC.

Perhaps better yet, simply have pvp take place in arenas and leave the players alive regardless of hc or sc, this would allow the hc and sc crowd to pvp together, without ever having any risk of comingling items (assuming they couldn't be dropped, which seems like an option.)

[sorcererbob]

Just my 2cents. I'm a HC player, and I'd like the opportunity to participate in softcore duels.Why should the softcore players get this game option and we should be deprived of it?

In my opinion, it would be best if I could be hardcore against the environment and softcore against human opponents in the same manner as all other players.

[Vitamins]

Just my 2cents. I'm a HC player, and I'd like the opportunity to participate in softcore duels.Why should the softcore players get this game option and we should be deprived of it?

You're "deprived" of the option no more than a Softcore player is deprived of Hardcore PVM.

In my opinion, it would be best if I could be hardcore against the environment and softcore against human opponents in the same manner as all other players.

While we're at it (following the same logic) let's have Softcore mode with Hardcore PVP.

[GuardianHadriel]

when losing a HC duel you lose 5 levels...??

[Intolerance]

I'm with vitamins- this is an absolutely terrible idea. Without the risk of permanent death, you aren't playing Hardcore. If you can't accept the risks associated, then don't participate. If you're genuinely interested in the Hardcore experience, then don't water it down for yourself or anyone else.

The only concession I'd be willing to make (like my opinion matters) is to allow HC characters to permanently become softcore (no items transferred)- that will allow you guys some PvM thrill until you're ready to start carebear PvPing.

[DonkeyHunter]

The same people who want HC PvP to stay the same are the same people whom have objections to getting rid of TP PKing and Hostility. In my opinion, HC PvM provides plenty of risk and excitement and I'm sure it will be even harder in D3. For all the stress we go through trying to stay alive we should be able to take a break from it so we can show off our items and skills in a good DUEL! I dont wanna be denied a critical aspect of the game because no matter what anyone says, the thrill of killing another player ONCE is not enough for me to risk all the hard work I put into my character. I know that some people will say that if you dont like it the dont play HC- and to them I say, PvM and PvP are two completely different aspects of the game and they dont both have to be exactly the same. Just because there is permanent death in PvM doesnt mean there has to be permanent death in PvP. If you are soooo hardcore then I agree that there should be a toggle to let people duel with permanent death, but most of us dont want that and we should have options. And dont tell me Blizzard cant make HC PvP a little bit more hardcore through losing exp, gold etc. without discouraging people altogether with permanent death. I think if the general population of HC players were accurately surveyed the majority of players would agree with me.

[Kiroptus]

Pking is out, so you would have to agree to have your character killed forever. Anyone sees how stupid this is?

If Perm death is in with any duel all hardcore mode will be for 99.999% of the players is a mode without PVP as noone is going to risk their characters for a dumb duel.

So fine by me, leave perm death on consensual duels but you might as well remove PVP from hardcore because thats what it will mean.

[windforce]

The same people who want HC PvP to stay the same are the same people whom have objections to getting rid of TP PKing and Hostility.

1) You have absolutely no evidence to back this up. And you are clumping everyone into one group that fits your fabricated assumptions. Some of us want pvp HC to actually BE Hardcore. I support removing TP PK, but I am also against removing hostility. Everyone has a different view. Frankly, if you don't want to risk losing your character, then don't participate in pvp. It's not your god given right to have the game conform to your specific preferences.

In my opinion, HC PvM provides plenty of risk and excitement

yes that's YOUR opinion... maybe pvm alone is not enough of a hardcore experience for all of us. Just because you are too big of a wuss to participate in HC duels does not mean that they need to scrap HC pvp.

and I'm sure it will be even harder in D3. For all the stress we go through trying to stay alive we should be able to take a break from it so we can show off our items and skills in a good DUEL!

you can. Except you risk losing your character. Deal with it. Back in the day, dueling in HC was very common and a huge part of the game. If you want to play pvp without any risk, play softcore.

I dont wanna be denied a critical aspect of the game because no matter what anyone says, the thrill of killing another player ONCE is not enough for me to risk all the hard work I put into my character.

Then don't play HC, or just stick to pvm. And by your logic, softcore players are being denied a critical part of the game which is the risk and excitement associated with HC. Does that mean softcore players should have the option to have HC duels?

I know that some people will say that if you dont like it the dont play HC- and to them I say, PvM and PvP are two completely different aspects of the game and they dont both have to be exactly the same. Just because there is permanent death in PvM doesnt mean there has to be permanent death in PvP.


No, it does mean that. PvP and PvM are both part of the same game. Diablo games, and all successfull games in the genre, are not designed to wrap around every single person's individual preferences. There are certain challenges that you have to overcome to play harder difficulty modes (in diablo, HC is the highest difficulty level), and if you can't cope with some aspects of it, that's your problem. Blizzard is not obligated to give a **** if you want a watered down version of HC.

If you are soooo hardcore then I agree that there should be a toggle to let people duel with permanent death, but most of us dont want that and we should have options. And dont tell me Blizzard cant make HC PvP a little bit more hardcore through losing exp, gold etc. without discouraging people altogether with permanent death. I think if the general population of HC players were accurately surveyed the majority of players would agree with me.

The majority of players don't know jack **** about game design. Diablo 1+2 were so successful because the old diablo team specifically did not take the advice from all the players who whined and complained about the hardcore pvp system. As I said, there does not need to be a different mode for every single preference out there. If you want to play HC pvm, you can do that. But if you want softcore duels, play them with your softcore char.

[Kiroptus]

^Fine then HC PVP just doesnt exist now since its consensual. Maybe the "uber-leet-hardcore" and also crazy players will do a HC duel but D3 being focused on PVM Cooperative play no one will get the vibe to PVP and lose their character forever after so much cooperative play.

Maybe one or two players who find themselves very hardcore because they agreed to lose their character forever, whoohoo!

[5zigen]

I admittedly did not read a large portion of this thread (largely because I couldn't stand the machismo being thrown around of people calling each other wusses and whatnot).

In D3 though, blizzard seems to be implying that characters will have a LONG timeline / evolution. Partially it's speculative, but it's doubtful that characters will level as quickly as they did in d2, even without the glitching, rushing and uberleveling.

The result of this means, that to get to where pvp will be ideally balanced at high levels, it will take a large investment of time. To balance this out, they will likely implement respecs (which have been somewhat concerned.)

Yeah, partially this is speculation, but it is likely that they will go in this direction, because it allows a lot more latitude in terms of character development, which is very preferable for a pve sc game.

But throwing your character into an arena in hc, knowing that one of the 2 people are going to die, potentially having nothing to do with each player's "skill" but more to do with the probability of the character build matchup. In d2 it makes sense, because characters are disposable. It takes between a few hours to a couple days of playing to get a character to level 90ish. Items are transferrable, etc.

If we're expected to sink a lot of time into each character I think the prospect of straight up hc pvp will be negative.

At the other end, The more accessible blizz makes pvp the more "carebear" they will be. It's yet to be shown how pvp will work in D3 and how the system will work in general, but making it more accessible will make it more "carebear" but I think the more "wusses" that can participate in pvp I think the more popular it will be.

[DonkeyHunter]

Yeh seriously. To call people "not hardcore enough" is just lame. If you are satisfied with dueling once in a blue moon with a 50% chance of dying then you really don't like dueling that much. Anyone who really likes dueling wants to do it more often. Therefore, if you don't want to change the current permanent death system then you really dont enjoy dueling that much and your opinion doesn't count... And your Hitler (lol-webmaster reference on forum watch)...

[MoUsE_WiZ]

Yeh seriously. To call people "not hardcore enough" is just lame. If you are satisfied with dueling once in a blue moon with a 50% chance of dying then you really don't like dueling that much. Anyone who really likes dueling wants to do it more often. Therefore, if you don't want to change the current permanent death system then you really dont enjoy dueling that much and your opinion doesn't count... And you're Hitler (lol-webmaster reference on forum watch)...
Well, I am a grammar nazi...


Also, D2 dueling IS terrible. You're right, I don't like it that much, and it needs the extra thrill of death to be worthwhile.

[Kiroptus]

Actually with that "extra thrill of a permament death" its just sealing the coffin on D3 hardcore PVP instead of making it attractive.

The logic behind that statement should be obvious.

[Intolerance]

Where do we draw the line in the cheapening of what Hardcore mode is? There's another thread going about paying to revive dead HC characters and I'm not sure whether this thread or that thread appalls me more.

If you want the luxury of Softcore PvP, then you need to play Softcore instead of trying to change the very definition of what Hardcore is.

[Kiroptus]

Some people here arent seeing the big picture. Diablo 3 is another game, in D2 there was PK to give PVP permenament deaths a meaning as it was sort of a hunt. Now D3 is aimed at cooperation and even PVP must have an agreement of both players to start the duel.


Just accept that Hardcore will now be a mode without PVP if perm death applies to HC duels. The option might be there but no one will use it. You people who believe that hardcore is an untouchable mode that must remain as it is for "uber-hardcore-leet" and because of that people will actually agree to lose forever their character in a stupid duel, then you are all are out of your minds. No one will risk their characters that they invested 50hours+ in a stupid fight, even if bets, antes and all those suggestions come to be implemented into the game. Even in Hardcore D2, if a hostily sound burst out in your speakers the most common reaction from the players would be to leave the game right away, now you are actually thinking that people will press an AGREE button to this?

Just remember that all the PVP community will be in softcore if perm death in PVP is in. No one will bother with HC duels. And those who agree to duel in HC with perm death are just stupid, not "hardcore" as they so want to believe.

[5zigen]

there's so much we DON'T know about the game right now.

For example, we don't know how long it will take to level to the endgame.

We don't know if item retrieval from corpses will be possible.

We don't know how likely death will be in PvM.

We don't know how they will balance player damage versus player life.

We don't know how frequent balance patches will be.

We don't know exactly how much blizzard is going to put into the PvP experience (will there be rewards, beyond ears?).

We don't know if PvP matchups will be decided by players or decided randomly.

We don't know blizzards balancing philosophy for pvp (will it be RPS, or will it be more ad hoc?)


It is likely that the game has fundamentally changed. If blizzard puts in some sort of pvp ladder (like arenas in WoW) then it will give a lot of HC players a feeling of alienation. Even the BEST players in WoW will eventually die, particularly if we're talking about random matchups, and even moreso when you're talking about random matchups.

For a lot of people it will feel like to pvp they will need to play SC because part of PvP is playing against people who are better than you, that is one of the main ways to learn in any competitive venture. But essentially, if all pvp will end in 1 player dying, hc players wont have a real opportunity to pvp. People who like to pvp aren't going to be willing to level a new character every time they want to pvp or practice, which will turn a LOT of people to SC from HC.

Or it will force them to split. We all know that it is ideal to play hc only, because twinking and finding items and trading is a primary way to gear characters. If your only pvp character is HC, you have to deal with trying to do HC for SC trades, or having some sort of SC item finder, which will leave a bad taste in many mouths (at least mine).

Perhaps it would make the most sense to just take pvp out of the "normal" game altogether. Have it be split up by SC, HC and PVP. Just a thought.

There is a chance it wont make any difference either, if blizzard runs with a system like what they have in WoW (or had, I should say) where a majority of your character can be geared entirely from pvp. Eliminating the necessity of PvE for pvpers. Then the people who like pvp wouldn't feel alienated by playing SC for their pvp and the HC could still have their machismo throwing their characters away every once in a while. Perhaps that could truly be a win win?

[DonkeyHunter]

I agree with most of your post except for the part where you suggest that there could be completely separate realm type thing for PvP. I would want my HC char to be able to both PvM and PvP as the same character. When I create a character, I like to have a history behind it and not have it built for just a single purpose. But otherwise, great suggestions.

[5zigen]

I keep forgetting too, that the idea of hc characters killing each other pulls me out of the immersion of the game, even as weak as the immersion is. It just doesn't make sense in the overall scheme of things for me, to have 2 heros, who presumably have the goal of killing the prime evils (or prime angels?) for the ultimate purpose of saving humanity and or sanctuary, Yet they would take the time out to not only fight each other (that sort of makes sense in terms of sparring) but to straight up kill each other... It just doesn't make sense to me from a lore pov, for whatever that's worth.

When I create a character, I like to have a history behind it and not have it built for just a single purpose. But otherwise, great suggestions.

I know a lot of people feel the same way.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

I keep forgetting too, that the idea of hc characters killing each other pulls me out of the immersion of the game, even as weak as the immersion is.
It beats SC with apparent cloning of the dead hero who is the only one who is allowed to pick up the items on his dead body...

Also there isn't really a lot of back story to your hero provided. My guy doesn't need to be a hero out to save humanity, he could just be wandering around picking fights with animals, demons, and heroes alike. The whole saving the world thing just happens to be the byproduct of my 3.4*10^8 - 0 - 2 record. Or any one of a countless number of other possible back stories.

It's funny that you use immersion as an argument against dueling to the death because I'm pretty sure Blizzard used RP as one of their arguments in favour of fun things like PK ~_~

---

I'm also going to note that anyone who wants to duel in D2 without character loss has open b.net as an option. There's absolutely no reason at all to not take your dueling there. And yet despite being suggested fairly regularly nobody does it. Probably has something to do with D2's PvP being a complete joke which nobody actually enjoys for very long as purely a test of skill. Anybody arguing in favour of immortality in duels from the perspective of D2 is welcome to share with me their reasons for not playing open...

And don't tell me that you need a back story for your character; for starters the ready-made characters work perfectly well in games with solid PvP (eg GW&WoW on the tourney realms). Secondly there's nothing preventing you from making an exact duplicate of your HC character to duel with, and if knowing it's a copy kills the immersion for you that's a problem with your head. Besides, dueling to the 1hp doesn't kill immersion? Really? You don't know how much HP your opponent has but you know how to ensure your winning blow leaves them on 1 hp?

[5zigen]

I don't think dueling to 1hp kills immersion because imo that is like imagining that players are "aware" of their or the opponents hp. I think that is just ridiculous, because as a practical matter, HP is just a representation games use to display character growth and threshold of life.

I guess whether or not the character is a hero is debatable, but I think in accordance with the fact that there is no "path" in game for anything OTHER than saving the world, the idea that you aren't playing a hero just seems kind of strange.

as far as open bnet goes for pvp, I think the problem is that it would require convincing a group of people to go to open bnet for pvp, as publicly pvping on open bnet will probably just get you endlessly greifed by someone with +100 skills.

For me the whole argument is academic as well, because I think rpg pvp is stupid and generally incredibly poorly balanced.

[windforce]

If anything I think most of you are unintentionally proving why the hostile button needs to stay in HC.

"nobody wants to risk losing their character, therefore HC dueling must be the same as SC dueling."

....

Hello! If people are not willing to voluntarely risk their characters in a HC duel (which, by the way is not true... HC dueling was huge back in the good ol' days), that means that without nonconsensual dueling, pvp on hc would be completely non-existant (pk is a form of pvp, and a damn fun one). Yes, by removing permanent death from HC duels, blizzard would be removing whatever hc pvp still remains in the age of no-hostility and phony, jammed-down-your-throat "cooperation" (that term is completely meaningless in the context of diablo and we all know it)

We need the hostile button back in D3, or there will be no pvp in HC because people dont take risks they can avoid (unless they are of the old breed, who used to duel in d2hc before the hacks took over the game). Removing permanent death in HC PVP is completely contradictory to HC, and if that's the only way to keep HC pvp alive in D3, it's just proof that blizzard is making a HUGE mistake in removing the hostile button. Diablo HC is a very different game from anything else. If pvp is not somewhat imposed, people will not get the full experience and challenge of the game.

As for pvp not making any sense from the lore perspective... that's completely irrelevant, and it's not even true... diablo characters have attitude, and seem like the exact type to stomp you if you looked at them funny. The diablo games are defined by their tone, which is that of chaos. Max Schaefer even said that diablo 1+2 were designed so that players can choose to be villains, and that monsters are no the only obstacles in the game.

So... removing permanent death in hc pvp? HELL NO!
Bring back hostility? **** YEAH!

[Kiroptus]

The Hostility system wont return. Its dead, give up on it, its part of their design decisions, the game is now much more based around PVE cooperation and because of that, PK has no more place on it, it never had actually, its an instanced game, if it was a MMO it would make sense but PK was only threatening when used in conjunction of exploits (TPPK, WPPPK) because legit PK was always laughable easy to avoid. The hostily system was a design decision that would fit an ARPG made 8 years ago but its never going to return in an modern ARPG. Just let it die.

You have to see D3 as a game without the hostily system and because of that, HC will have to adapt to it and face it, no one is going to press an AGREE button to have a big chance of losing their character. Never. With that in mind, with perm death in HC PVP in D3, it just means that HC doesnt have PVP. Period.

And no, PVP HC was never popular. PK yes, but consesual? I have yet to see two high level HC characters chatting

"Im bored, lets duel and lose our characters that we played over 100+ hours"

"Sure! meet me at blood moor."


Dont say its common because it ISNT. Its probably in the single digits of when it happened per server and whoever actually did that was quite stupid.

[Typoko]

Hi!

You have to see D3 as a game without the hostily system and because of that, HC will have to adapt to it and face it, no one is going to press an AGREE button to have a big chance of losing their character. Never. With that in mind, with perm death in HC PVP in D3, it just means that HC doesnt have PVP. Period.

And that is where you got it all wrong. I would press AGREE button if i was on my HC character that i'm willing to lose on PvP match. Most likely this would mean that i already have higher level HC character to provide items for the new HC characters when they eventually die. Taught of losing your character makes you work for the win. IF you die from the death it makes every single duel count. You fight one duel and you can talk about it and cheer. In SC you just duel somone else or th same person. HC pvp also makes sure there aren't too many noobs running around.

Hardcore mode should be for hardcore players. It's walking on the edge that gives some meaning for hardcore. If you can't die in a duel what is the hardcore in that? If you want softcore pvp then you play softcore, pretty easy. If you can say you are HC player, you should go to the end with it. It's no damn "I'm HARDCORE, MAN!" and when it comes to getting killed "lol don't kill me!" it means you aren't hardcore at all, just a sheep in wolves clothes.

Tho i doubt it will make into the game, but the option for the winner to let the other one live would be great. This should be no option at the start, it should be decision made at the end of the duel. If he thinks you are worth of living he will let you do that. Problem with this is griefing. Rooms that are made for non deadly pvp would get griefed alot.

[windforce]

The Hostility system wont return. Its dead, give up on it, its part of their design decisions, the game is now much more based around PVE cooperation and because of that, PK has no more place on it, it never had actually, its an instanced game, if it was a MMO it would make sense but PK was only threatening when used in conjunction of exploits (TPPK, WPPPK) because legit PK was always laughable easy to avoid. The hostily system was a design decision that would fit an ARPG made 8 years ago but its never going to return in an modern ARPG. Just let it die.

You have to see D3 as a game without the hostily system and because of that, HC will have to adapt to it and face it, no one is going to press an AGREE button to have a big chance of losing their character. Never. With that in mind, with perm death in HC PVP in D3, it just means that HC doesnt have PVP. Period.

And no, PVP HC was never popular. PK yes, but consesual? I have yet to see two high level HC characters chatting

"Im bored, lets duel and lose our characters that we played over 100+ hours"

"Sure! meet me at blood moor."


Dont say its common because it ISNT. Its probably in the single digits of when it happened per server and whoever actually did that was quite stupid.

But my point is exactly that: People don't take risks that they don't have to. The hostile system made PK a required challenge in playing the ladder and public games (and yes, before tppk hacks came along, it was still very easy to avoid). Without the hostile button, HC pvp would be ****. It is to avoid this disaster that you guys are suggesting removing permanent death from HC PvP. In other words, according to people here the only way to "save" HC pvp is to remove it entirely by making it the same as SC pvp. Completely irrational if you ask me. I see no reason why PK doesn't fit in to modern ARPG's. The only reason that would be true is because people are only willing to play a WoW clone.

No matter how much blizzard likes to deny it, they are completely changing what the diablo franchise is all about.

[Intolerance]

And no, PVP HC was never popular. PK yes, but consesual? I have yet to see two high level HC characters chatting

"Im bored, lets duel and lose our characters that we played over 100+ hours"

"Sure! meet me at blood moor."


Dont say its common because it ISNT. Its probably in the single digits of when it happened per server and whoever actually did that was quite stupid.

When did you start playing HC in D2? It's probably been 7+ years since my last HC duel, but I've been personally involved in no less than 100 consensual level 50+ HC duels, with probably 50% wins, 25% losses, and 25% other player quits before a kill. Consensual HC PVP was abundant before hacks and dupes made it completely imbalanced.

There was a time when the HC channel was full of smack talkers and HC duels were extremely common, especially since most people would have looters.

I never tried to grief anyone with the hostile button and I'm a firm supporter of it remaining in the game. Just give it a 10 second delay- that'll give everyone plenty of time to get their poop in a group and not be griefed.

Just because you think HC PVP is stupid doesn't mean the rest of us do.

[Kiroptus]

No matter how much blizzard likes to deny it, they are completely changing what the diablo franchise is all about.

Diablo has always been a PVM game at its core. Blizzard themselves said it on the forums many times when people asked for some PVP balance (named the time of Amazons GA pierce), their answer was always: "diablo was balanced for PVM".

Diablo so far has been a PVM game with lots of options to grief, namely stealing drops and PK. That was just badly designed, it was fine 8 years ago but again, nowdays a game that presents itself as a grief machine wont work now since online play is far more common and douchebaguery in online games has reach critical points so its necessary to take off all possible actions that grievers can do to an multiplayer enviroment otherwise you wont have a well-designed PVM game that Diablo 3 will aspire to be. So forget about Hostility, not even Bill Roper in HGL allowed PK to be in his game so its not "Blizzard selling out" or "Blizzard is now carebear" BS that has been spilled all over now. Time has passed, something as broken as a hostility system in a fully instanced game of 8 people (now it will be less players) was a completely asinine design decision.


And granted D3 is more balanced and less exploitable then the cesspoll of exploits that was Diablo 2, rushing and powerlvling wont be as easy and because of that, characters will be more valuable, good that some few weirdos are agreeing to risk their characters, their 50+ hours of work on a stupid duel that no one will care but face the fact that a HUGE part of the HC community wont play on it.

Get a tap on your back that you are so "hardcore" to lose your character on a duel and win nothing from it when the other SC players are enjoying a lots of nonstop duel when HC players just duel once and BOOM, over...

And yes, HC PVP will always be stupid for me, and most of the HC community wont risk it. HC is mostly about playing safe and smart, going toe-to-toe with another player for no reward at all in a duel until death, is the completely opposite of that. Most of the HC players would leave the game as soon as the hostility was announced, I am really impressed that you people are defending that players will press an "Agree" button...

[Intolerance]

Get a tap on your back that you are so "hardcore" to lose your character on a duel and win nothing from it when the other SC players are enjoying a lots of nonstop duel when HC players just duel once and BOOM, over...

You simply don't "get" HC PvP. Winning nothing from a HC duel is the ultimate Softcore mentality because when you duel in Softcore there's absolutely nothing at stake. When you duel in HC, you understand the risks and the rewards, and believe me when I tell you that killing some cocky, smack-talking, arrogant bastard is more than enough reward for me that I'll risk my character all day long. And I can guarantee that I'm not alone.

We'll obviously never see eye to eye on this issue. Your perception of HC PvP seems to come from the way HC PvP is today, which is drastically different from the way it was years ago before the game was compromised by cheats/hacks (and, to a lesser extent, horribly imbalanced items). HC PvP thrived in the early days of D2 and I can only hope that Blizz does it "right" in D3 so it can thrive again.

[Kiroptus]

So everytime someone wants a duel they should risk their 50+ hours of play for it? Diablo is first of all, a game. It needs to fun, if everytime I want to taste a bit of PVP I have lose all my work over nothing ( it IS nothing, dont try to attribute some value for it because there is none other than e-peen extension) .

And please, dont attribute too much value to consensual HC PVP in D2 because it was always a borefest to watch even in the early days, as its always lots of town hugging and cowardice as the most predominant aspects of those matches. To get better in PVP you need to die to learn from your mistakes, you will once and while, die. Its normal.

Diablo is a PVM instanced game. This world of hunt, hostility, justice and vengeance never applied here because it was always a instanced game where people could simply leave the game or open a TP and go AFK in town. If you managed to convince a bad manner player into duel (you need to, because its now consensual) which I must say, good luck with that, it will never happen, then you have to kill him, now you killed him. So what? You managed to find a single and to me, stupid reason to include HC permament death into consensual HC PVP, a very unlikely one because you cant force a bad manner to fight you specially because those players are always cowards and would never play part on that.

What about all the other HC players who want to taste PVP just for fun? They cant, they will have to go softcore because not even among friends people will want to risk their characters.

Face it, consensual hostility killed HC PVP as you know, you would have a hard time to find someone who would want to take such a risk. At least hostility with HC perm death in D2 gave a reason for HC players to use it, it was mostly used by grievers who just made the MP enviroment a worse place but at least it had some use, now its consensual.

If you think its so highly necessary, blizzard should include a option for perm death (which trust me, noone would use) but the default should be droping players to 1 hp once the duel is over.

[Matt]

As a long time legit HC dueler and PKer, I'll agree with a lot of the sentiment I've read here, that there's a certain thrill to hardcore dueling that just doesn't exist with softcore dueling/pking. Sure, it might be a bit more of a challenge to find someone to fight, or to find a game where not everyone runs to town as soon as you hostile, but if you're suggesting it's impossible to get duels/pk people who realize their character's life is on the line, you obviously have never tried it.

The way I see it, many folks seem to be saying that they like PvP as it is in softcore, where you don't lose it all when you lose the duel, and thats fine, such a mode just happens to exist for you, softcore. Hardcore dueling may not be your favorite thing, but there are and always have been a bunch of people who get a big kick out of it. Personally, I only really play D2 for the hardcore dueling/PKing. I would love if there were no cheats around, but honestly, I don't lose any sleep over it, its actually far more satisfying to kill some script kiddie who thinks he's invincible, and you have to get craftier to do it.

Your lack of appreciation for HC dueling doesn't mean nobody likes it, and sorry, but I for one am 100% opposed to changing the fundamentals of hardcore because you don't want to die in a particular way. I hate when I get a nasty lag spike and my MFers get fried by souls or something, but I'd be just as opposed to a "that was a lag death, reset my character please", or a "I really meant to click the other way, not right into those fanat death lords, reset please" button. Hardcore is hardcore, and with all due respect, if you don't like it, tough luck.

That said, I haven't really been keeping up with the D3 news too much, but from the little bits I have read, the PvP system seems like it'll be quite a bit different. If that's the case, I for one probably won't be playing it.

-Matt

[Kiroptus]

^Well I guess you wont be playing then. PK is competely out of the game. That itself already changed the fundamentals of HC PVP.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

I have lose all my work over nothing ( it IS nothing, dont try to attribute some value for it because there is none other than e-peen extension)

Contradiction?
Winning duels = nothing, but your so-called "work" isn't? You can't have it both ways.

You've used that "lost work" argument in just about every single one of your posts but what you don't get is that it isn't lost work when an HC character dies. If you think that it is work to build a character you should probably just skip straight to the item stores because it's MUCH more efficient to work at your job and buy everything in game with real money than it is to work in game and gear a character via trade/mf.

Of course at that point you're not playing ~95% of the game so why you'd bother buying it in the first place is beyond me, but to each their own I suppose. Just know that most people who play D2 don't consider it "work" while they do it.

[5zigen]

Contradiction?
Winning duels = nothing, but your so-called "work" isn't? You can't have it both ways.


I think technically any time you invest in a character is something. It goes all the way back to the john locke and the labor theorey of property. I think your hair splitting the idea that play and work are entirely separate things, when work is actually more accurately defined as time spent/invested in an object. In this case, it would be a HC character, regardless of whether he enjoyed this type of work or not.

And winning dues could be nothing, in comparison, because winning duels has no objective value, while leveling your character and finding items does. When you find items and level a character up, the value of the character goes up (particularly market value). On the other hand, unless there is an extensive pvp reward system in the game, then winning duels does not increase the value of the character, and thus, it is risking all of your work, for nothing. I think that's a very accurate characterization actually.

Some people may derive a lot of value out of "ears" while others simply do not care. That being subjective value, is not proper to analyze the work put into a character in a more general sense, unless we're operating on the assumption that ears are valuable.

[Typoko]

Hi!

"Lost work" of HC characters is something, but i don't consider playing games as work. It's fun for me. Also you most likely have gained skill to play the game better. This way next time leveling and dueling wille be easyer, faster and you can explore something different than last time leveling.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

In this case, it would be a HC character, regardless of whether he enjoyed this type of work or not.
There is no "investment" in a character though. You play the game and have fun while doing it. Period. As mentioned, if you look at it as some sort of investment where you're putting time into it to get something out later (eg building a dueler is the investment, dueling is the payoff) then you're better off just straight out buying your character as you'll get the payoff with much less investment. At this point why did you even bother?


I'm aware that for whatever reason there are people who look at it as an investment with a payoff, and it's not really my intent to say that they're doing it wrong, but Kiroptus has repeatedly referred to HC duelers as stupid for risking something for no reward as if they even had something significant to risk in the first place. I'm just pointing out that there's plenty of people out there who would disagree with that notion.

I mean really, other than epeen (to paraphrase him), what do we gain from risking our characters to play HC in the first place?

[Kiroptus]

I'm just pointing out that there's plenty of people out there who would disagree with that notion.

No, there arent a lot of people. HC is a survival mode, the crushing majority of the HC players DO NOT bring their character into a very risk duel. Understand that you guys are a very small fraction of the HC community.


The only time they might agree is to try to punish a PKer who started the hostility and then they stay tower hugging or spamming arrows/blizzard/traps/bonespirits/hammers at a stair entrance point to insta kill a character once it gets down the stairs which is nothing honorable or "hardcore-leet" as you put it.

You make it sound like HC duel is something beautiful and extremelly leet because two brave players agree to duel even tho they have one life only. Its not, a HC duel is something very sad and monotonous to watch.

Again, please dont speak like you are speaking for the majority, you know that most HC players do not duel, they preserve their characters because thats the point of HC mode, you are making it sound like HC duels are an integral part of HC mode, like a rite of passage that the characters go through... Most HC players avoid the hostility system like the plague (most even playing solo and avoiding pubs) and you know it. Now that its gone you might as well remove HC PVP if you are going to put a feature that catters to 0.1 % of the community.

Or it could be a feature to exploit noob players, like the old "Allow this player to loot from your corpse" system which all bnet kiddies tried to fool other players into pressing it and dueling with you. The same would apply to D3 HC duels, "hey lets duel, dont worry you just get to 1 hp" boom perm death. Thats pretty much the only use I can see for it.

[5zigen]

There is no "investment" in a character though. You play the game and have fun while doing it. Period. As mentioned, if you look at it as some sort of investment where you're putting time into it to get something out later (eg building a dueler is the investment, dueling is the payoff) then you're better off just straight out buying your character as you'll get the payoff with much less investment. At this point why did you even bother?


I'm aware that for whatever reason there are people who look at it as an investment with a payoff, and it's not really my intent to say that they're doing it wrong, but Kiroptus has repeatedly referred to HC duelers as stupid for risking something for no reward as if they even had something significant to risk in the first place. I'm just pointing out that there's plenty of people out there who would disagree with that notion.

I mean really, other than epeen (to paraphrase him), what do we gain from risking our characters to play HC in the first place?

The point I was making is that it IS an investment. You are spending your time improving your character. It doesn't matter if you're enjoying it or not, or if there are more "efficient" ways to get that same character. You have spent your labor playing a game.

Let's take any hobbyist for example, say someone who builds models. They likely enjoy building models, for them, it is fun. Yet, it is still an investment of time to make one. With the supposition that it doesn't matter if someone was to stomp and destroy one of their models, because they haven't invested anything in it (hey, they were having FUN making it! You're just giving them the opportunity to have more FUN!) is ridiculous.

It would be much easier for a model builder to go out and work, and then just buy completed models, but that's probably not why he builds models. He builds them because he enjoys building them, not unlike most diablo players enjoy building their characters.

The same is true with HC dueling. Some people play the game for different reason than others. And while it isn't per se stupid for an HC dueler to duel because everyone puts some subjective value on winning (epeen) for many people the act of winning, while exciting, has zero marginal value. I understand this because I feel the same way.

From a completely rational viewpoint, it is very irrational for HC duelers to risk their characters in duels. Look at it like a wager, you are betting your character that you will win, and if you win you get nothing other than bragging rights. Would you ever see a gambler bet 100 dollars on something where the most he could lose is 100 dollars and the most he could walk out with is 100 dollars? No. Because it isn't rational. So, on some level, he is right. It IS stupid for HC duelers to do so. On another hand, some people put a large value one the epeen, which is ultimately the subjective value I was talking about before. That means that in their mind, it is rational.

However, I am willing to bet that most people who play Diablo HC don't care too much for PvP particularly with their "primary" character, because the risk is too great and the reward too sparse. Sure, some people will be happy to make LLD characters, they are easy to outfit and quick to level. I cant think of any time I've seen serious level 80+ duels happening in HC other than random pub games which tend to just be fronts for townkilling or other such nonsense.

And aside from that, it's likely that the "stupidity/irrationality argument" is actually an intellectual retort to the "wussy/carebear argument" that was evidenced early in the thread.

[Kerazul]

Alright.. let's forget all the 'carebear' arguments for a second and think about realism. Is a pvm enemy likely to permanently kill you without question? yes. Is it possible for a player character (strictly from a in character sense) to have reason to not finish someone off? Yes.

Perm death ALL THE TIME in HC PVP makes no sense at all.

[Matt]

Alright.. let's forget all the 'carebear' arguments for a second and think about realism. Is a pvm enemy likely to permanently kill you without question? yes. Is it possible for a player character (strictly from a in character sense) to have reason to not finish someone off? Yes.

Perm death ALL THE TIME in HC PVP makes no sense at all.

I don't play Diablo because I find it realistic, there's nothing realistic about casting spells to kill monsters, and all that jazz. The system needs to be what's practical in terms of making gameplay fair and fun. That said, I think there's an argument to be made for a system like the one you've described.

The debate seems to me to boil down to people wanting a softcore dueling mode with their hardcore characters. As I said before, this seems kind of weird to me. For one thing, I'd feel as though I was cheating the system if I played my HC character all the way up into the 80's without dying, then went a dueled with him for an hour, died 6 times, and then carried on PvMing with him as though the "hardcore" character hadn't yet died. I think it's pretty cool playing high level hardcore characters, because you know you haven't ever died, and you know everyone else you're playing with hasn't either. Kind of cheapens the whole idea of hardcore in my mind to allow certain kinds of deaths, and just not count them.

The idea of bending the rules of hardcore as we all know them, and have known them as long as D2 has been around doesn't appeal to me in the least. If folks are so set on having hardcore PvMers and softcore duelers, then by all means, do it. Hardcore items tend to have much more value than softcore ones, because the system "eats" items back up, in softcore, with little exception, if its found, its there for good. That puts you at a big advantage when trading to make softcore duelers. Go to the evil forum, spend your funny gold you earn hardcore MFing, and make yourself an immortal dueler where it belongs; softcore.

-Matt

[Kerazul]

Adding the feature to not kill your opponent isn't taking anything away from anyone. It allows people who are just having a friendly duel to not die, yet doesn't prevent anyone from cheating death.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

The point I was making is that it IS an investment. You are spending your time improving your character. It doesn't matter if you're enjoying it or not, or if there are more "efficient" ways to get that same character. You have spent your labor playing a game.
With that argument, simply existing is labour and any action is an investment. If you really want to take that hard a stance on the definitions of investment and labour then feel free to, but then I'd probably end up taking the stance that outside of a priori truth nothing exists objectively, and I'd only be giving up that a priori truth exists objectively because I can't come up with a sound argument that it shouldn't and in the mean time it exists objectively by an a priori truth.

Metaphysics would likely get us nowhere though, so I'm going to stick to the common usage of words and maintain that intentions dictate whether or not something is an investment, and that work and play are two distinct ways to use time.

Let's take any hobbyist for example, say someone who builds models. They likely enjoy building models, for them, it is fun. Yet, it is still an investment of time to make one. With the supposition that it doesn't matter if someone was to stomp and destroy one of their models, because they haven't invested anything in it (hey, they were having FUN making it! You're just giving them the opportunity to have more FUN!) is ridiculous.
For starters any reason I can think of that a D2 character might be a desirable end on its own can be applied to a model. The converse is not true... for example I can put my model on display in a virtualized form but I can't put my D2 character on display in a substantiated form.

But that may be a little picky and I actually kind of like your analogy, just not the conclusion.

Lego.
Robot wars.
There's plenty of clips on youtube of people destroying something they built, and I'm sure I could go on if I really thought about it.

Guess that those guys all have entirely ridiculous concepts of an entirely subjective emotion. There's probably people out there who like to build duelers for the sake of having a dueler and want to see it live forever, but I think it's much more sane to build a dueler, or any HC character, knowing that it will eventually die. The point that I decide my character isn't going to eventually die on its own is the point that I get bored and make it die.

Further, your argument kind of touches on PK rather than dueling as the duelist picks when his character is ready to have his character possibly be smashed while your model builder didn't, but that's mostly OK. The thing is though, the PK forces me to replay the game when I'm not ready to; when the game gets (too) repetitive it gets boring. Losing a duel lets me replay the game at a time when I will find it fun. Typically I consider playing a fully geared and leveled character to be at least as boring and repetitive as starting anew at level 1. Dismissing dueling until I die means that I get to start over again when I'm ready, which is still fun, only now I don't get the choice to try to kill other people before said restart. It's not always a choice I make, but giving players choice is usually a good thing.

(Keep in mind, at the moment I'm just arguing against the notion that current HC dueling is stupid in some way beyond the stupidity that is playing D2 in general; I'm aware the thread isn't suggesting that the choice be taken away, and if you read my very first post in this thread you'll see that I agree that there are circumstances where another choice should be given. In D2 the other choice is given both by open b.net and by how easy it is for somebody to avoid being killed in a duel if they're prepared.)

So no, I don't think there is anything at all stupid, on even a strictly rational level, about risking something that has no value, and I think that D2 characters have very little value. I'll warn you right now that if you bring up their ebay value you'll get another long post in response that would be forced to go into the subjectivity of the value of money, but the short version is that I don't consider the cash return to be worth the baggage that accompanies selling them.

Would you ever see a gambler bet 100 dollars on something where the most he could lose is 100 dollars and the most he could walk out with is 100 dollars? No. Because it isn't rational.
I've seen plenty of gamblers give very large tips with no return other than maybe a smile from a dealer. The only reason this situation is so unlikely is that if the goal was a frown from the loser of the bet the gambler can typically still accomplish this *and* earn a cash reward at the same time. This would kind of be like dueling vs loot dueling in D2; loot duels DO give a reward but getting your opponent to go along with it isn't as easy as it is in the case of a bet.

As an aside; from a money making standpoint most gambling isn't rational in the first place, so giving credit to most gamblers for being rational in their decision making seems like a bit of a stretch. I always giggle when I'm at a blackjack table and somebody gets mad at somebody else for not being a good anchor... if they care about the odds that much they should just leave the table ~_~

I cant think of any time I've seen serious level 80+ duels happening in HC other than random pub games which tend to just be fronts for townkilling or other such nonsense.
Just out of curiosity, how many times have you sought out a high level duel? I'm sure that likely has something to do with how many times you've seen them. And I don't mean for the sake of watching either; they're *much* easier to find when you're hunting them as a participant, I mean even if you seek them as an observer and find two willing participants there's no reason said participants want some random guy there to watch them.

I'm not saying they're easy to find, but I think you and Kiroptus are misrepresenting the level of difficulty. I also think he is misrepresenting the reasons they are so hard to find... hacks, serious balance issues, and a currently much smaller player pool than D3 should have have made finding duels more difficult than it should be in D3. But that's not all there is to it... those issues have created a cycle; at this point it's too hard to find duels so duelers get bored and quit so it gets harder to find duels... that cycle is not likely to get the kick start it needs in D3, at least not for a number of years.

So yeah, I might not speak for the majority, but I'm hardly a lone nut either. The current D2 HC dueling scene is not representative of what the D3 HC dueling scene would look like if an alternative to death is not given.

[zGuJ]

I wish I would have kept tabs on the site more then I do, as I do not have the time to sift through 6 pages, but I read the last post. I'll throw my personal opinion into the mix. That dueling in hardcore is a choice you're either ready to die or your not. That is the rush of hardcore. That is what makes hardcore what it is, When you duel on hardcore you can lose everything or you can make the opposing player lose everything. It's a rush that becomes addictive and if you're not willing to risk it all then you should stay on softcore. Point is if you don't lose everything and just gold, exp , or some items. It will defeat the purpose of hardcore, and the rush and the emotional zing that makes it addictive. IMO.

[Kiroptus]

I wish I would have kept tabs on the site more then I do, as I do not have the time to sift through 6 pages, but I read the last post. I'll throw my personal opinion into the mix. That dueling in hardcore is a choice you're either ready to die or your not. That is the rush of hardcore. That is what makes hardcore what it is, When you duel on hardcore you can lose everything or you can make the opposing player lose everything. It's a rush that becomes addictive and if you're not willing to risk it all then you should stay on softcore. Point is if you don't lose everything and just gold, exp , or some items. It will defeat the purpose of hardcore, and the rush and the emotional zing that makes it addictive. IMO.

Yeah, I am sure that every HC player will want to press an agree button to lose permamently their character. Because thats how hostility in D3 is now.

You are all stucked in the mindset that every HC player is "hardcore". Dont take the word "hardcore" into the heights of thinking that every HC mode player is willing to risk their character over a duel to win nothing because all the HC community is "hardcore-leet". HC mode is nothing more than a survival mode, in survival it means to not die, hence why I must repeat, every HC player avoided the hostility system, only PKers would pray on the weak on a fight they could not lose just to make the other players lose their characters. Thats how the HC PVP was, now you people should open your eyes to the changes made in D3. D3 is now better designed (that means powerlvling with cowlvls/baal runs/ubers exploit wont be as blatant as in D2) so the characters take more time to grow, more balanced and PK is out of it. With that in mind you cant seriously believe that its plausible to leave an option like an Agree button to lose your character in a SURVIVAL MODE.

I will play HC and SC, but if any jerk wants to duel with my HC character I will just gladly refuse and he wont be able to do a thing to me and most of the HC players will refuse those requests as well.

Time has changed, Diablo has changed and the PVP system has changed. Its time to understand what worked in a different game now has no sense in this new game.

[zGuJ]

By no means am I speaking for the whole community. I personally played diablo 2 to duel. Those were just my opinions. I would rather someone accept my duel then to just hostile and kill him. If he/she accepts they go in knowing they may die I can respect that.

[Matt]

You are all stucked in the mindset that every HC player is "hardcore". Dont take the word "hardcore" into the heights of thinking that every HC mode player is willing to risk their character over a duel to win nothing because all the HC community is "hardcore-leet". HC mode is nothing more than a survival mode, in survival it means to not die, hence why I must repeat, every HC player avoided the hostility system, only PKers would pray on the weak on a fight they could not lose just to make the other players lose their characters.

If you're so set on surviving, then don't play hardcore in the first place. The rush of playing hardcore over softcore, whether it's PvM or PvP is the fact that you're playing with a mortal character. You mess up, it's dead. It adds stakes to the game that don't exist in softcore. If you don't like that, then you don't have to play hardcore. If your goal was truly to avoid death at all costs, why in the world are you playing hardcore at all? As Mouse_Wiz said, it gets boring pretty quick playing characters that you know can't/won't die. He mentioned that when that becomes the case, he takes more risks, and puts his characters in a position where they are actually at risk of dying, because it's more fun.
I do the same, except that I do it with my duelers. Now, as I said before, I only play this game for hardcore dueling. I don't high level duel, not because I wouldn't want to lose high level characters, but because with the prevalence of bots and all that crap, I simply can't put together enough 'wealth' to put together a dueler to compete with 95% of the folks who do it. I can however, put together low/mid level duelers in a much more reasonable timeframe, and I do so often. In direct contradiction to what most of the 'softcore dueling in hardcore mode' folks seem to be claiming, I do actually put myself in positions where it's extremely likely I will die, because I think it's much more fun being the underdog in a high stakes (high stakes as D2 goes only of course) spot than to be a sure winner. The last 10 or so duelers I have lost have been, without exception, to much higher level characters, mostly other duelers.

For example, the last one was a level 29 paladin, decked out to the teeth, that died dueling a level 61 LF/CS zon, before that was a level 21 zealot that died dueling a level 39 charger, and the one before that was a level 37 fury druid that died to a level 5x tele-necro. In between these deaths, I racked up a bunch of ears with each of them, mostly from characters similar to the ones that got them (level 7x with the druid, 40's with the zealot and into the 60's with the 29 paladin).

Point is, putting yourself in risky spots where you are NOT a sure victor, and where you have a very high chance of dying is a ton of fun because it's a rush and a thrill. You simply cannot have that same experience with softcore dueling.

I understand why you don't like hardcore dueling, and I respect it, but most of the hardcore players I've played with don't share you sentiments. Dying to cheats is one thing, but we're talking legit dueling here. Pretty much every argument against the dueling system as it is now is that you don't want to risk dying over a duel. Thats fine, but I'm still waiting for anything resembling a solid argument why you don't just go play softcore and duel there, because the system already exists.

-Matt

[5zigen]

Mouse, I'm not trying to get metaphysical. One of the primary justifications for property, dating back very long, has been labor. Labor as defined by effort put into something. There is no way that a d2 hc character does not constitute labor or property. You are spending time improving something, saying it's not labor just because you enjoy it is silly.

Aside from that, you CAN put your character on display, even in d2, every time you are in a public game or in a channel your character is "on display" much like a model is. Some people derive value from this, just look at any major city in WoW and you will find people with high end gear just sitting around doing nothing. Effectively, they are displaying their characters.

I know you can find videos of people smashing their models and such, because they put a subjective value on smashing it that is higher than that of building it and keeping it, either that or they're just sick of it and they want to make something else (with the case of legos). Also, they probably value the ability to videotape it and smash it. That said, it's not something EVERYONE enjoys.

I'm not trying to say that no one ever should hc pvp, or that. I'm saying it's justifiable to call it irrational, and further it's beyond reasonable to take a stance that not participating in pvp with your hardcore characters due to the risk of losing them is a completely reasonable conclusion to come to.

I think you spelled out something important too, when you noted that most people don't make a "dueler" and expect him to live forever. And I think that's a distinction that should be pointed out, in all rpg type games, the characters generally have variations whether they are meant for pvp or pve, and this is where you end up with duelers and pvmers (or carebears).

I think the point is that even people like you will differentiate your characters, and designate some for pvp duty and some for no pvp duty, likely because you dont want to lose the other ones.

Ultimately, one of the primary benefits of allowing pvp in D3 without having permanent death would be to allow people to participate in pvp without having to go through the trouble of making a designated dueler. Because in HC, even with a robust and accessible respec system, I am willing to bet most people will not be dueling with their "main" characters simply because of the risk of losing them. Without permanent death people would duel with their main characters, and I think that is something gained from having pvp without permanent death.

Ultimately, it all comes back to the argument of accessibility v. eliteness. How much of a priority is making pvp accessible, versus making the HC experience loyal to the experience that if you ever go into pvp you will probably end up dying at some point.

[Intolerance]

Consensual HC PvP in the early days of D2 pretty much had to include Barbarians. No other class was really able to land any sort of a "one-hit-kill" like WW could and when Sorcs, GA Zons, etc. were involved in duels, people just ran away when they got weak. Necs (via IM) and Pallies (via Thorns) could possibly kill Barbs (or have the Barbs kill themselves), but the Barb was the key fixture in HC PvP. I played a bunch of Barbs back then and I was pretty much always willing to duel any class that hostiled me because I knew my limitations and what it would take to kill me. In this sense, non-Barb HC PvP has always been pretty much non-existent. And I'm fine with that.

Softcore PvP was much different since nobody carried rejuvs or ran away instead of dying and every class could participate (to an extent). I've done some softcore dueling- I remember gearing up a softcore barb in the very early days of D2 with the help of some softcore friends (by early days, I'm talking September-November 2000, long before people really ironed out character builds). I built him with the Hardcore "life is everything" mentality- huge Str/Dex on gear (rares FTW, by the way) and a decent -40% exec (102 one-hand IIRC). He had HUGE life and was able to WW through IM and Thorns and survive. In free-for-all games, it's usually turn into 7 v 1 and I'd still clean house. I had loads of fun with that character (running around and killing whatever I could until I died, rinse, repeat) but it's not the sort of thing that has any place in Hardcore.

I don't see why we need to change anything to encourage HC PvP. I hope that like D2, PvP in D3 is an afterthought that doesn't weigh into game balance. The HC/Softcore system works great as it is now and I guess you'll just never convince me that the D3 will be a better game by modifying the very definition of Hardcore.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

Question: does there exist a game that can be played without labour being involved?

If your answer is yes, then I'm simply going to point out that that's the exact way I play D2, and the fact that I happen to end up with a character in the process is entirely unrelated to my play. The amount of time used while playing is irrelevant, I am just doing it for fun after all. I think the standard definition of "labour" would allow for, say, checkers to be played without having labour involved, but I can see where you might disagree.

If your answer is that there does not exist a game that can be played without labour then I will argue that there does not exist an action that can be done without it being labour. For instance when I go to sleep I am using my time to improve the health of my body, and if property exists at all surely my own body is part of my body. But at this point you might as well just say that the definition of labour is how you are using your time. Since the concept of playtime exists then playtime is just a subset of labour time, so yeah, I'm still just spending my time playing D2. I might be labouring but I already admit that when I say "spending my time". This makes "labour" seem like a silly word to keep around and I'm not going to labour any longer debating its meaning. You can feel free to continue, but know that the lack of response is not me giving up, just getting bored.

-----

Next: Blizzard owns D2 characters, not you.

Not only is my D2 character not the intended end of my D2 playtime, but it turns out that my D2 character can't accurately be referred to as mine.

But whatever, if nobody's looking I could still sell it for profit. But as mentioned in my previous post I would never consider any monetary value any D2 character could ever bring in to be worth the moral and fun value I'd be giving up in selling it.

-----

And that's the last point I'm going to bring up: value is always subjective.

Despite my character actually being Blizzard's, I still get to use it for my own entertainment. So yes, it does have a certain value to me... it entertains me to use it as I see fit. But this is the only value I see in it.

So yes, as you've accurately noted, if I decide that it will be fun to use it to duel it is a rational decision to use it to duel. If on the other hand I decide it will be fun to keep it alive as long as possible it is a rational decision to not duel with it.

Where I consider you to be very inaccurate is where you start trying to label the fun of dueling as subjectively valuable but the fun of keeping it alive as objectively valuable. In either case the character only has value to me in the fun it gives me.

Hell, even if I *could* sell the character for money, what would I turn around and do with said money other than use it on something to have fun? Well I might decide to use it to survive, but I tend to only bother with that because I think it might end up being difficult to have fun after I die.

So yeah, it's only EVER irrational to duel with an HC character if you think that there's more fun involved in not dueling. Don't get me wrong, I'm aware that that means that from some perspectives it is irrational to duel, but "from some perspectives" is hardly the universal statement you're trying to make it into.



-----

This isn't really a point, but I do need to correct one thing:
The reason I build duelers isn't because I don't want to lose my PvM ones, it's that level 21 Zealots don't kill monsters very quickly and level 90 singers, even with the godliest of singing gear imaginable (refer to my giveaway thread from this time last season ~_~), don't make for anything but fodder in PvP.

In general if I build a high level character that can be not-terrible in PvP and good in PvM, it'll end up PvPing eventually.

[5zigen]

I've been resisting replying to this thread yet again, but I will say this: Any time you are spending time doing anything that has a "product" that is labor. It is an investment of time that is represented in the end product.

It's not worth it to talk about other games, like say fps games or things like tetris, because the result is nothing that can be taken from you. I.E. Getting to the 3rd level in halo on your xbox is no different than on anyone elses xbox. Getting a high score in tetris doesn't leave you anything other than knowing you got that high score, and there is theoretically nothing stopping you from getting that high score again.

Regardless of what the EULA SAYS, saying that we "don't own our characters" is hasty, and the only time a game company has tried to use that argument to disavail someone of their character, they lost the case and had to completely rewrite the EULA (though in SL there was much more... opportunity for creativity and IP creation in the game.) The case was Bragg v. Linden Research.

It's an interesting topic, because what is happening is the attempt to use extensive EULAS to prevent property rights from ever forming in something, but it's not clear whether that can even happen, as it's never been tested in a court. But, for all intents and purpose accounts, and characters, are the property of the player. The player has, at the very least, constructive possession of them, and they are fairly easily transferrable as can be seen on any auction website.

The point I should really try to ring home is that just because you don't intend to sell the character doesn't mean it isn't labor that has gone into it's production. Just because you enjoyed producing it does not make it any less valuable. If you lose the character, you do lose your work.

And regardless of how you value a character relative to the subjective value of dueling, characters do have an objective value, and that is very easily represented by the fact that people frequently sell in game assets. The value of dueling has to be subjective, because it is generally not an asset, that is, it is not transferrable.

They may add something to make it displayaable, which would give dueling closer to an objective value, but, barring that it's just doing something because you like to do it. Perhaps it is inacurate to say it's irrational, but, given the nature of HC, it's very easy to see why it would be considered irrational. (as long as you view the point of HC as living, and not dying).

And I think it gets glossed over too much, but you posted why you make multiple characters for pvp, and I think that is also something worth thinking about in the context of all of this. Does blizzard want people to be forced to make a new character every time they want to pvp? Is that one of the fundamental reasons for including respecs? If so, how does that ideal mesh with HC, where, you will again be forced to make a new character every time you wish to pvp?

[Moonfrost]

Question: does there exist a game that can be played without labour being involved?
Definitely, but such games are vastly different from D2 in that they don't save your progress every time you to play, or in that they simply lack a focused goal that players work towards.

As soon as a feature isn't immediately available to the player, that feature becomes an investment because it takes time and effort to unlock it and benefit from it. High level D2 characters are a feature that requires investment because high level characters aren't immediately available to the player. Consequently, the only D2 characters that aren't an investment are the level 1 characters because they can obviously be created whenever you want and require no previous effort on your part.

Fun factor has absolutely nothing to do with this and shouldn't be brought up as an argument for anything.

[Typoko]

Hi!

They may add something to make it displayaable, which would give dueling closer to an objective value, but, barring that it's just doing something because you like to do it. Perhaps it is inacurate to say it's irrational, but, given the nature of HC, it's very easy to see why it would be considered irrational. (as long as you view the point of HC as living, and not dying).

If i work for getting a screenshot of me owning noobs in HC pvp, that is a goal and i work for it. I don't count it as work for leveling characters and getting gear from them, i "work" to get those screenshots. (ok, eaven i'm not that silly, but this is an idea.) If something displayable ingame is added, getting those things is really much objective as you most likely wouldn't get them any other way.

And I think it gets glossed over too much, but you posted why you make multiple characters for pvp, and I think that is also something worth thinking about in the context of all of this. Does blizzard want people to be forced to make a new character every time they want to pvp? Is that one of the fundamental reasons for including respecs? If so, how does that ideal mesh with HC, where, you will again be forced to make a new character every time you wish to pvp?

Perma death in HC pvp doesen't force you to remake a character if you die in pvp. Just play SC pvp and you are just fine. I'd like to put the weight on when you want to HC pvp, you will have to reroll a character after loss. No one forces someone to play HC or HC pvp.

I addmit that if there is going to be HC pvp where you permanently die, i wont be doing that on my main HC character. It pretty much means the gear that i have worked out for him won't really matter but the gear that i have gathered for other classes would still matter. This thing leads to a question that should i just roll SC dueler and then from time to time have a bit fun with HC pvp as i really can't see anyone making 50+ level characters few times a day just to HC duel. Tho perma death HC pvp could be something that would start a compleatly new genre of pvp. Let's say like under level 20 pvp. Most likely characters won't take days to get to level 20 and you don't lose that much gear.

Mainly i'm up for the idea that winner chooses if he wants to let the loser live or not. This most likely won't be implemented as there are alot of ppl that would make "non-deadly duel" games and then just kill the other guy if he happened to win the game. One thing is that there might be a selection when you make the game for the pvp to be deadly or not. And if the selection is deadly, you get a warning message that you are doing something really risky when engagin the other participant.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

I.E. Getting to the 3rd level in halo on your xbox is no different than on anyone elses xbox. Getting a high score in tetris doesn't leave you anything other than knowing you got that high score, and there is theoretically nothing stopping you from getting that high score again.
Blah, I didn't want to debate the "labour" thing any more, especially since I've now gotten you away from the universal claim of irrationality and this is an issue on which nobody's mind is going to be changed, but... a character is a measure of progression through the game. A level 90 sorc with standard sorc gear is no different from anybody else's level 90 sorc with standard sorc gear. If it dies there is nothing to stop you from making said character again.

Deeds is just a game-over screen, nothing more. It takes longer to reach the game-over screen but that's it.

Definitely, but such games are vastly different from D2 in that they don't save your progress every time you to play, or in that they simply lack a focused goal that players work towards.
Most games have save options. People used to (and I guess some still might) play chess via mail; any idea what kind of time investment that'd be when you lose? Going back to Tetris, go check out some of the Tetris Party endless high line scores... some people can play that for-freaking-ever pausing it and coming back the next day.

The real difference between D2 and other games isn't that there is work put into some transferable product; in any game somebody can come and take over progression that has already been made. The difference is that D2 is a game where somebody can come along and take credit for the product and nobody but the seller and the buyer is likely to know the difference.

Or if it's not credit that somebody's after, maybe they want the character for use and don't care if people know that they bought it. Most do, but I've met a handful of WoW players who were quite open about buying characters or leveling services. In that case it really is just the progression they're buying (same as paying to take over someone's game of Tetris) but the reason you only ever see RPG sales and not sales in other games is that in RPGs the games are typically easy enough for somebody to come in and play at the high level without losing instantly. The buyer wants to skip part of the game for whatever reason, and pays to be not bored early on/have fun in end game.

In either case it really isn't the character that has the value, it's the same thing you've been labeling as subjective, namely epeen or fun. It's entirely possible to do either of these things with duels too, and I've seen it happen. I've seen people take over characters that weren't theirs and assume the reputation, and gearing/leveling duelers is probably the biggest reason that the out of game item market exists.


I think I'm done with this thread though because nothing new is being said on either side, it's just being said in different ways. Oh, and the issue of having to over specialize your characters... I like over specialization in D2; it forces a shorter character life cycle. I don't want to have WoW again where I have 3 Mushrooms that can do anything (except win at RPS) with 200 days /played split between them. However I think that's a thread that is for (and likely exists in) the PvP forum and doesn't have too much to do with HC.

[5zigen]

I still think it's very ridiculous that you think that you never "lose your work" if a character dies. Which is how this all started.

Dying in HC is very very different from losing a game of chess, or playing tetris marathon. The fundamental difference is that at the end of those games you end with exactly what you started with, whether you win or lose.

I suppose what really bothers me is you are implying that there is no difference between a level 1 or max level/fully geared character, because you can always get a level 1 to max level. That's something I fundamentally disagree with.

As I said before, I suppose if your goal is to die, then there is no value in the character or any point in seeing what you put into it as work, only value in the ghost. If your goal is to not die. . .

[MoUsE_WiZ]

I suppose what really bothers me is you are implying that there is no difference between a level 1 or max level/fully geared character, because you can always get a level 1 to max level. That's something I fundamentally disagree with.
*resists urge to repeat many paragraphs again while not doing much but finding new ways to express what has already been expressed*

I will still say that if that notion bothers you, I bet you'd be even more annoyed if I told it you it is worse to die with a level 1 than a fully geared level 99. With the 99 you've essentially beaten the game anyways and there isn't much left to do... with the level 1 you can't really come away with anything to tell anyone other than how terrible you are at the game. Plus the only content you got to experience was the blood moor.

Not that there's anything wrong with the blood moor, I played the crap out of the stress test about 10 years ago, but it does get old quicker than the rest of the game ~_~

[Moonfrost]

I will still say that if that notion bothers you, I bet you'd be even more annoyed if I told it you it is worse to die with a level 1 than a fully geared level 99. With the 99 you've essentially beaten the game anyways and there isn't much left to do... with the level 1 you can't really come away with anything to tell anyone other than how terrible you are at the game. Plus the only content you got to experience was the blood moor.
You're suggesting that the experience of having beaten the game is worth less than the experience of not having done the same.

[Typoko]

Hi!

Blah, I didn't want to debate the "labour" thing any more, especially since I've now gotten you away from the universal claim of irrationality and this is an issue on which nobody's mind is going to be changed, but... a character is a measure of progression through the game. A level 90 sorc with standard sorc gear is no different from anybody else's level 90 sorc with standard sorc gear. If it dies there is nothing to stop you from making said character again.

Deeds is just a game-over screen, nothing more. It takes longer to reach the game-over screen but that's it.

Most games have save options. People used to (and I guess some still might) play chess via mail; any idea what kind of time investment that'd be when you lose? Going back to Tetris, go check out some of the Tetris Party endless high line scores... some people can play that for-freaking-ever pausing it and coming back the next day.

The real difference between D2 and other games isn't that there is work put into some transferable product; in any game somebody can come and take over progression that has already been made. The difference is that D2 is a game where somebody can come along and take credit for the product and nobody but the seller and the buyer is likely to know the difference.

Or if it's not credit that somebody's after, maybe they want the character for use and don't care if people know that they bought it. Most do, but I've met a handful of WoW players who were quite open about buying characters or leveling services. In that case it really is just the progression they're buying (same as paying to take over someone's game of Tetris) but the reason you only ever see RPG sales and not sales in other games is that in RPGs the games are typically easy enough for somebody to come in and play at the high level without losing instantly. The buyer wants to skip part of the game for whatever reason, and pays to be not bored early on/have fun in end game.

In either case it really isn't the character that has the value, it's the same thing you've been labeling as subjective, namely epeen or fun. It's entirely possible to do either of these things with duels too, and I've seen it happen. I've seen people take over characters that weren't theirs and assume the reputation, and gearing/leveling duelers is probably the biggest reason that the out of game item market exists.


I think I'm done with this thread though because nothing new is being said on either side, it's just being said in different ways. Oh, and the issue of having to over specialize your characters... I like over specialization in D2; it forces a shorter character life cycle. I don't want to have WoW again where I have 3 Mushrooms that can do anything (except win at RPS) with 200 days /played split between them. However I think that's a thread that is for (and likely exists in) the PvP forum and doesn't have too much to do with HC.

A long post, but sadly it has nothing to do with the thread. As said, losing in thetris is quite alot different than losing level 90 character in a duel. Ok, in theory someone can play tetris forever, but it's not possible in reality. In reality someone can survive in HC forever. HC is not certain death to the character. Also a character provides gear to other characters. Does the tetris game let you skip few levels next time you play it? Can you help other players with your tetris game that you have paused? No.

Comparing things that have pretty much nothing common with eachoter is something that should not be used in a serious post.

I must say that there is one thing i agree with you. This is so dead horse that people could stop kicking it. The sides will stay the same atleast till blizzcon but most likely won't change eaeven after that. Lets remember that they have to say that the HC is eaven in the game.

[NatSelection]

I read this whole thread and found the whole thing to be so amusing that I actually registered for the forums just to let you know how simple the solution is.

There are obviously two fairly exclusive groups in your little hardcore parade. The carebear, fru-fru, wussy, mama's-boys, and the ultra-hardcore masochistic chicken chokers.

Here is how you can both have what you want...

Include a button for both people to press which makes the duels perm death duels (someone else suggested it first, I know, but some of you thickies didn't seem to understand WHY that means you get what you want). Now, you carebear, fru-fru, wussy, mama's-boys can have your softcore taste of pvp without risking your precious investments, and since so many of you ultra-hardcore masochistic chicken chokers seem confident that perm death dueling is alive and popular, you shouldn't have a problem finding another ultra-hardcore masochistic chicken choker to press the perm death button and kill your characters to your heart's content.

The carebears aren't going to pvp with perm death, and the chicken chokers aren't going to enjoy pvp without perm death, but you are all still going to play HC. Since you both seem confident that their are plenty of people who feel your way about pvp, why can't both options exist? I get the feeling that either the ultra-hardcore masochistic chicken chokers are lying about the number of people who duel in HC mode, or they know that they wouldn't have the guts to press the perm death button because they're secretly carebear, fru-fru, wussy, mama's-boys unless they are positive that they will win - otherwise known as cowards.

[Illulaguill]

Unless I am completely obtuse and I would yield to that claim, I cannot find a "last comments" page here.

I can find the "last comment" singular, but nothing like you can find on forum, where you can pull down pages of the last comments.

Sometimes people find older photos I have completely missed, and comment on them, which helps me find a worthy coin to view. But once the next person comments, it is no longer readily apparent.

Since this site allows you to show the last photos posted in 1, 7 and 14 day periods, is it possible to do the same with comments?

Thanks

Mark

[KingOfKings]

if you want a safe pvp option, go roll on softcore.

if i want real, adrenaline, heart-thumping, sweaty-palm pvping challenge, hardcore is where its at my friend.

[Darkflight]

If dueling in hardcore is supposed to be to death, I have a suggestion.

WHen you accept a duel with another player, you both are instantly teleported to an arena. Both you characters will stay in that arena until one of you dies a permanent death. You can't get out of the arena and if you save&exit or your computer shuts down or something your character will stand there waiting to be slaughtered. The arena ends when one of the character dies. If all of you truly are hardcore, you would have to agree that is the only way to do it. No chicken hacks, no save&exit, no TP to town.

One on one, until death. That would be in the hardcore spirit wouldn't it?

[BrotherRatcliff]

Agreed, that would be the hardcore spirit. I would hate it if that wasn't an option. I doubt it's an option I would ever use but it should still be there.

On the other hand I really don't like having to maintain chrs and mule accounts (and keep track of trading values) for both hardcore and softcore because I enjoy dueling. For that reason I really think there should be a lesser-penalty version of dueling available in hardcore.

I used to hardcore duel back in the pre x-pack days all the time, but it was a different world back then. Mostly we all sucked at the game and didn't really get to high levels anyway. Also there weren't all that many super rare items to loose, so that wasn't as much of a concern. Basically you died all the time from mistakes, MSLEs, lag spikes, etc, so since you were likely to die within a few days anyway dueling wasn't a huge deal.

Now though things have changed. I played hardcore chrs for an entire ladder season and died 1 time last year. I had over a years worth of items invested in those several level 90+ chrs and risking them in duels would have been very different from just playing them. Now when the ladder season ended I dueled all those guys to the death and it was a blast, but it still wasn't a hardcore duel feeling because everybody was going to delete their guys in a week anyway.

We don't know how D3 is going to play out yet, so maybe none of this is valid. If D3 plays more like early days D2 where chances were as a hardcore chr you wouldn't make it half way through nightmare anyway then full-death dueling will be no biggie. Or if great gear just isn't that hard to find full-death dueling will be no problem. If it's like D2 is today though, with super rare items and hardcore PvM life expectancy is fairly high I think we need another dueling option.

Dueling in hardcore still shouldn't be like dueling in softcore though. As many people have stated, that's why we have both modes. A loss in hardcore still needs to seriously sting, and have a permanent impact. That's why I like the idea of the winner choosing between a few serious penalties for loss. These could be things like take ALL the losers gold (assuming gold has actual value in D3), take a number of items from the looser at random (or picked by the victor), loose a given amount of levels (how many depends on leveling speed in D3), remove all runes from all skills? That would still make dueling in hardcore something you had to worry about and take seriously. It would also provide a built in dueling incentive because you would be able to gain something from the looser.

However it should also be an option upon starting a duel to do it "to the death". That could be used for real grudge matches, or for some uber-hardcore dueling league. Wins generated via "to the death" duels should be tracked separately on your chrs stats/achievements so that everybody knows you are a real man! Does that make everybody happy?

[Intolerance]

Dueling in hardcore still shouldn't be like dueling in softcore though. As many people have stated, that's why we have both modes. A loss in hardcore still needs to seriously sting, and have a permanent impact. That's why I like the idea of the winner choosing between a few serious penalties for loss. These could be things like take ALL the losers gold (assuming gold has actual value in D3), take a number of items from the looser at random (or picked by the victor), loose a given amount of levels (how many depends on leveling speed in D3), remove all runes from all skills? That would still make dueling in hardcore something you had to worry about and take seriously. It would also provide a built in dueling incentive because you would be able to gain something from the looser.

However it should also be an option upon starting a duel to do it "to the death". That could be used for real grudge matches, or for some uber-hardcore dueling league. Wins generated via "to the death" duels should be tracked separately on your chrs stats/achievements so that everybody knows you are a real man! Does that make everybody happy?

No. The only option that will make me "happy" is if every Hardcore death is permanent, PVP or otherwise. Any other option is a change in the fundamental definition of Hardcore and I pray to the FSM that Blizzard sees this. No penalty you can concoct aside from permanent death will suffice.

I totally support Darkflight's idea- even going so far as to disable potions or any other healing items. Duels should mean one character dies, not one fights long enough to run away without dying. I'm getting a little excited imagining the chaos that would ensue in a multiplayer (eight? OMG!) free-for-all duel structured like this!

[AimBotHax]

I play both Hardcore and Softcore in Diablo 2 and here is my take on the Hardcore PvP environment.

Arena Style Combat

Utilize an arena style pvp system much like WoW with a rating system to determine the best of the best. Arenas are “instanced” meaning once your inside your locked in until death.

Areans can be split into 1v1 , 2v2 and 3v3. 1 v 1 is pretty simplistic, one survivor leaves the arena and thats it. However 2 V 2 and 3 V 3 arenas would be structured a little different. If a player dies in a team arena they are not permanently dead until their whole team is dead. This gives individuals joining team arenas a sort of buffer if they die but still keeps the theme that death is in fact permanent if they all die.

Free-For-All Combat

Again an “instanced” or arena type system would be used for this setting as well.

Only one person can leave the arena alive. Put power-ups such as “double damage” or “life regeneration” in high threat areas (in the middle of the arena, wide open, no places to hide.) This will prevent turtling and provide some sort of objective. Players will be questioned with “Do I get the power-up to increase my chances of winning or do I hold off and play it say?”. There would be only 1 power-up effect per arena and it will be pre-marked on the mini map for all players.

[Darkflight]

The problem with Hardcore dueling ending with death is that some people want to play hardcore PVM and softore PVP. The question is if Blizzard should give these people what they want.

If you want dueling in hardcore to make perfect sense, fights that are in a arena should not be to death since it is a competition rather then an actual fight. Fighting outside the arena should (or maybe could is a better word) end in death though.

The stupid thing about dueling in hardcore is that many people chicken out when they can see they are in risk of loosing. To make the duels truly hardcore you have to force them to fight until the bitter end.

No matter what they choose to go with, someone will be pissed off. I just hope they don't really care about the opinion of posters on forums and make a system they think is fair and good. I trust their judgement more then people on a forum like this.

[GoBigRed]

I read about 5 pages of this but heres my two cents...

1) I only did my dueling during the days of 1.09 which allowed me to hunt down unwilling participants and at the time, I could pull about 20-30 wanted duels or more in a matter of hours. I didn't bother with high level duels because I was a perfectionist with my character and the cost to maintain a high level dueler that couldn't be killed easily was to much so I stuck to low level duelings such as lvl 9, 14, 18 up to about level 50 because alot of the gear was expensive if you wanted to be elite but still reasonably manageable timewise.

2) With the fact no one fully knows how the games gonna work, if you remember 1.09 days, it used to be you could rush a character the entire way through and hell cow a lvl 1 character to whatever level you desired which allowed perfect stat allocation and skill allocation. If you were forced into playing through many areas of the game, then that would force you to gain levels and require skills to kill monsters hence changing dueling dramatically. Now if I remember correctly, you can't add stats yourself and items are no longer barred by stat points which will change the gear setup/skill choices drastically without the idea of having to PvM before getting to PvP.

Long story short, there are tons of people willing to participate in permanent death duels and risk their characters, with the idea that rushing/power leveling is gone and PvP builds will have to be PvM first....it should even the playing field alot as far as everyones ability to fight goes if they can't use 1-2 skills to get to the required level. Remember, someones gotta be on top and that's typically the person who has the most time to make their character, you just gotta be willing to wager if you were more dedicated than he was.

[TheBlueGhost]

I think that we are all forgetting that Diablo has always had hc no perm-death pvp system in that neither player has to deliver the deadly blow. So I feel that this argument isn't about if this feature should be included but if it should be made easier for the players, which I think it should. It will be very difficult in D3 to tell which blow will be the final one with crits and whatever, so why not create a feature that does that for the players.

But in the spirit of HC for no reason should this feature be called a 'duel'. In the real world we refer to this kind of non-lethal contest as 'sparring'. And as such, 'sparring' shouldn't come with any benefits or drawbacks since it isn't the real thing. No exp, no gold, no ears for either player. Such benefits should only be given to those that are truly dueling in HC where the game is a bit more real and no person can regrow ears.

I don't understand how anyone can be upset with such a system. The care bears can still find out which of their heroes are stronger knowing they cannot accidentally deliver a killing blow and the e-peeners can still have a proper duel with all the glory that comes with it.

On a side note: what I really want is character stats recording your duel record for both SC and HC with a different trophy system for HC. Possibly skulls of your victims that hang from your armor...

[GoBigRed]

I think that we are all forgetting that Diablo has always had hc no perm-death pvp system in that neither player has to deliver the deadly blow. So I feel that this argument isn't about if this feature should be included but if it should be made easier for the players, which I think it should. It will be very difficult in D3 to tell which blow will be the final one with crits and whatever, so why not create a feature that does that for the players.

But in the spirit of HC for no reason should this feature be called a 'duel'. In the real world we refer to this kind of non-lethal contest as 'sparring'. And as such, 'sparring' shouldn't come with any benefits or drawbacks since it isn't the real thing. No exp, no gold, no ears for either player. Such benefits should only be given to those that are truly dueling in HC where the game is a bit more real and no person can regrow ears.

I don't understand how anyone can be upset with such a system. The care bears can still find out which of their heroes are stronger knowing they cannot accidentally deliver a killing blow and the e-peeners can still have a proper duel with all the glory that comes with it.

On a side note: what I really want is character stats recording your duel record for both SC and HC with a different trophy system for HC. Possibly skulls of your victims that hang from your armor...

I think most of the people who are against a "sparring" system where it keeps you from delivering that blow is that it WILL cripple the actual dueling aspect alot, especially for the players that are known for being superior duelers. The reason for that is because alot of kids want to duel but realized there only option was to risk death but since that was the only choice, they went ahead and participated and I'm sure many found success and felt alot better for it and plenty of others met their expected outcome, that being death. Basically the "fight to 1 hp" will take away alot of potential duelers who would've risked their characters out of lacking the choice. Also if I remember correctly, they want to limit you to 1 account which will make it even harder for well known duelers to ever get a fight once they are known. In the past I could just create several accounts and get endless duels because a dueler that became to successful could just be remade elsewhere.