PDA

View Full Version : Druidic Bard: A whole new view!


sirroman
03-07-2009, 09:06
UPDATED! VERSION 1.0!

Hey! Here's my take on the Bard class, right away I want to point out who came up with the "raw source" of my ideas: firstly, it was commonhumans, with the first Bard Fan Class I can search in the database, then there's... commonhumans! that pointed out the relation between Bards and Druids.


OKay, Is a druid an extreme killing class? This definition is taken dicrectly from dictionary.com when you search Druid:

Druid
Dru"id\, n. [L. Druides; of Celtic origin; cf. Ir. & Gael. draoi, druidh, magician, Druid, W. derwydd Druid.]

1. One of an order of priests which in ancient times existed among certain branches of the Celtic race, especially among the Gauls and Britons.
Note: The Druids superintended the affairs of religion and morality, and exercised judicial functions. They practiced divination and magic, and sacrificed human victims as a part of their worship. They consisted of three classes; the bards, the vates or prophets, and the Druids proper, or priests. Their most sacred rites were performed in the depths of oak forests or of caves.

Uhhh, I hope that makes the bards look a little bit more BAD@$$ to everyone. Point made for number 3.

Also, I quote this, from Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary:

Bard [from Latin bardus from Gaulish and old Brythonic probably bardos cf Welsh bardd] Exalted one, initiate, teacher; one of the three holy orders of Druidism -- Druids, Bards, and Ovates. The Bards had the duty of keeping alive among the people the knowledge or intuition that there is a path that leads to wisdom and initiation. They carried this out largely by telling stories: a Mabinogi, according to Sir John Rhys, was a story belonging to the equipment of the Bards. These stories were told in such a way that their symbolic meaning might be apparent to those with intuition, but hidden from the mass. In telling the stories they used verse form a good deal, so that now in every country but Wales bard has come to mean poet. In Wales, however, it retains some relic of its original meaning: a Bard is a member of the Gorsedd, and may or may not be a poet; no poet is a Bard unless the Gorsedd has admitted him to its ranks. The Bard's robe was of blue; that of the Druid was white; the Ovate's green.

Ok, then I will take from where he stopped. His bard class was a cunning ranged class, actually, seemed to be closer to the classic D&D Bard class, with his charms and class-buffing abilities and I want to take it a little further, make it more savage, more wild, make a Bard that is more a druid than a ladies man. Actually, IMO commonhumans' Bard isn't "green", it's "blue": charm, manipulation and cunning, all that is "blue".

What about making a true "green" bard, guys? ;D You can foresee that I'm going to step a little off of everything you had read here, but by sure that I do this to make it more... interesting and original, ok? ^^

[ADDED] Since we already have Druids in Diablo’s Folklore, I’m eager to mix the legend of the Bards with the Ovates, filling the rest of the “holy orders of Druidism” (Wikipedia: “The earliest Latin writers used vates to denote "prophets" and soothsayers in general”), so, a Bard is also a Ovate, but only those prophets that try to spread the Druidic learning are called “Bards”.


To me, the Bard isn't a storyteller that travels the land to make his name out of his abilities to tell tales and songs. The bard I want to see on D3 is a Nature's prophet, his songs aren't his, but are the Land's tales, his voice is the wild whisper and it isn't his cunning and curiosity that makes him travel along a party, it's his Calling.

This Bard doesn't tell Tales and create songs, this Bard is the Nature's instrument, for she wants to be heard...

She NEEDS to be heard.

THE DRUIDIC BARD

The Druidic Bard (placeholder name) comes from the same culture of the Druid. Years of study and worship of the Nature led to a complex discipline: the wise are born to lead the people and the strong are born to protect the people, they all are chosen by the high scholars, guardians of the ancient teachings. But from time to time some are born with the ability to recitate the long teachings from the cradle and even see the future, the scholars argued between themselves if those younglings were born with a Ancient Spirit onto themselves, if the teachings were imprinted into their souls from the inside of the womb by the gods, if they just could see beyond the others, or even if they were Human!

All that didn't matter, those toddlers were grown-up by then, and they always felt the urge to roam the continent, to sail far away from their people. They were called the Bards.

The scholars may be the guardians of the nature's learning inside the tribe, even their teacher! But the Bards are the teachers of the whole world, the carriers of that same knowledge, it doesn't matter if the Bard tells you a poem, a tale of a forgotten warrior's honor, or even a vision, take sure that all are weaved together by the Nature's Will.

As a traveler he is fit to surviving alone in the wild: the same Calling that gives his brothers the ability to change into powerful animals is in his blood as well and he always seem to know exactly the right way to turn or the right herb to look for.

THE MUSIC SYSTEM
[Added: 04/07/09]

The Bard is usually pictured starting (and finishing) a battle singing and to mirror that we can’t forget this artistic magic. So, most of the Bard’s skills are expressed in the form of music, which is a single way of calling each form of magic that comes from the Bard: a Poem, a high Screech, a musical instrument’s play, a whisper, a brief verse, etc. (I’m not a musician, ok? ^^)
You must already know that the Druidic Bard’s music comes less from his work with words, and more from the inspiration of the gods, a great part of his music are part of his visions from the past, present and future, some other part are strong words from lost languages, while the rest come from his actual experience and good-wording play. Mechanically “Music” is the genre while the species are “Chant” and “Verses”.

“Chant” are the “basic humming”, the “core” of the Druidic Bard’s music, his intonation. Ranges from a simple rhythm with a Harp (more into skills) to a far-reaching and low sound that seems to come from nowhere while the Bard concentrates his Ancient Knowledge. Mechanically they function like the Paladin auras, but they cost mana during the time they take effect. Usually, getting hit isn't enough to disrupt them, for this magic doesn’t falter with any minor mistake of the Druidic Bards part: we can always say that the “Song” really comes from his very soul, and vocalizing is just an unstoppable urge.
“Verses” are variations of the Chant, comprehend the more “straight-forward” of his Music magic, like a part of a poem, a powerful word from the Draconic language capable of combusting matter or a single phrase that haunts his enemies. Mechanically they act like Wizard’s spells or a Barbarian’s Warcry, you cast, pay the mana cost and they take effect instantaneously or during a set time.

Verses can be cast anytime, even (specially I would say) while the Druidic Bard is Chanting. So the Druidic Bard effectively have hundreds of songs up his sleeves, mixing elements of ancient magic the way that better fit his needs.

SKILL TREES
[Edited: 04/07/09]

Obs. on Skills: If I'm right, Blizzard aren't using three separate "skill trees", but only one tree with all the skills. To make it easier to “get” the class idea, I wrote a few “pseudo-skill trees”, explaining the range of the Druidic Bard’s powers. Take note that an easier way of designing them would be “Chant skills”, “Verse skills” and “Non-Music skills”.
EDIT: The previous skill trees were only Nature’s Voice, Nature’s Body and Hunting Training.


1# Nature's Voice
These are the Druidic Bard’s Music that influences enemies and enhance friendly units without tapping his shape-shifting powers. Boasting or hindering their moral, causing damage or distracting them. They can be Chant, Verse or simply passive skills.

2# Nature's Body
The Druidic Bard’s have some shape-shifting powers and this tree resolves around the Music Spells that tap this gift. Unlike the Druid (D2 LoD), the Druidic Bard’s can change only parts of his body, while with some higher level of mastery he can change slightly the friendly units close enough, but for a smaller time and higher cost, of course.
Those skills may come in the form of Chant, Verse and passives. But usually resolve around the first, so usually the changed body part endures as long he is reciting whatever ancient spell that blur the line between his human self and his true nature of a Wild's Spirit. Mixing Chant and Verse he can create intricate songs that shape-shift different body parts at the same time.

3# Human’s Cunning
Here fall the “weapon-wielding" skills and the “less prophetic" druidic powers. They are all-purpose skills that can come in the form of a special attack technique or a healing power. Usually aren’t neither Chant nor Verse spells, just plain active and passive skills, but we can’t rule this out yet (what about if a HUGE idea comes by?).

SKILL LIST
[Edited: 08/07/09]

Now, the skills! I won’t quote Technomancer anymore (My take on a Bard class ( http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=731051)), but I will use his skills if I see that they are interesting enough (and they usually are ^^). I wish to add more and more skills and leave the tough work of choosing what to remove by the Blizzard guys, right, Blizzard guys? ^^

If I use a skill created by Technomancer, I'll make sure to maintain the same name or type the original name by the end of the description.

I won’t place the skills on Tiers, it could vary a lot depending of the Balancing. Yeah, I can "figure" the tiers, but... do you really want me to put the skills on tiers? xD

1# Nature's Voice [15 skills]


Soothing the Beast: Active. Chant. Has a chance of randomly causing any foes within range to stop hostile activities for a time, entranced by the Bards singing.
Charming the Beast: Passive. Enhances Soothing the Beast. Hurts the enemies’ will to fight by aiming for their emotions. Decreases Attack Rating and Damage of every foe on screen.
Tear the Blind Active. Verse. Use your voice to narrow the barrier between this world, and all others. Creates a mist of otherworldly energy that renders every enemy on screen blind, in their confusion they attack any creature at reach.
True Name: Active. Verse. The Druidic Bard attune with the Spirit World and aim for the soul of that who defies him, trying to pierce the knowledge that even his foe doesn’t know consciously: his True Name. With that the Druidic Bard may exercise control over his foe, for a time. Has a casting time of 2 seconds. Has a chance of forcing the enemy to fight for the Druidic Bard for X seconds. Once this time ends and depending of the difference of power between the Enemy and the Druidic Bard, the Enemy will either seek out to kill the Druidic Bard, ignoring all other targets, or flee. [Name of Power, True Name]
Bargain with Fools: Passive. With time the Druidic Bard doesn’t need to exert himself to uncover the True Name of an enemy, he learns how to bargain the True Name of all the foes around him, with each other. Letting their closeness and mutual envy betray them. Enhances True Name. True Name targets all the enemies in a radius of X around the target. [Sop Story]
Haunting Melody: Active. Chant. Increases the connection between this world and the Ether, increasing the effectiveness of allies' spells and decreasing mana costs for skills.
Death Warning: Active. Verse. Foresee the imminent death of your enemies, calling their name and stating this grim knowledge. During X seconds has a chance of randomly stunning any applicable targets within range. [Angelic Voice]
Dragon's Tongue: Active. Verse. Whispering a long forgotten language you make matter easily combustible. Causes fire damage to a enemy, have a chance to make it start to burn that has its own chance to spread.
Dragon’s Anthem: Active. Chant. “A fast, harsh song that has a chance per x seconds of setting any targets within range on fire, causing fire damage for xx seconds. If a target is on fire and gets re-effected, the fire duration is added onto the end of the current fire. Creatures on fire have a chance of igniting those nearby.” [Furious Bolero]
Inflame the Worthy: Active. Verse. The ancient race of the Dragons didn't use defensive spells, for their might was uncontested. When facing aggression they resorted in their fire immunity and turned the very air around them into flames. With sufficient mastery over their Lost Language and his own grip over the Spiritual realm, the Druidic Bard may sheath his and his allies bodies with flames, while protecting their flesh and equipment from its destructive force. Last for X seconds. Causes Y damage to any enemy that is within melee range and/or attacks to the target. In addition to that, the target melee and ranged attacks cause fire damage of Z.
Linguistics: Passive. Enhance Dragon’s Tongue, Dragon’s Anthem and Inflame the Worthy. Increase the fire damage and adds a chance to stun victims while on fire. [Allegro]
Hymn of Light: Active. Chant. A powerful song from before time. Only affects undead and demons within range, but deals constant damage, slows them, and lowers damage and defenses.
Silence: Active. Verse. Silences any target within area of effect.
Resonate: Active. Verse. Causes an intense sound vibration in an cone area starting at character that stuns targets and causes damage. This spell stays in affect while the mouse button is down and can be re-aimed anywhere.
Enhanced Resonance: Passive. Increases the width of the cone and the damage caused by Resonate.


2# Nature's Body [16 skills]


Snakes' Build: Active. Chant. Bones become more flexible and muscles react to a mere thought. Increases all attack/cast speeds and enhance armor.
Spider's Senses: Passive. Your senses sharpen and become more used to faster actions. Enhances Snake's Build. Increase the armor bonus and gives a bonus to Attack Rating.
Bull's Build: Active. Chant. Bones harden and muscles swell. Increases the damage and adds to the max health.
Wolverine's Mind: Passive. The wolverine's ferocity makes your attacks tenacious. Enhances Bull's Build. Gives a chance of shrugging part of the damage (damage reduction? can't remember the name) received and your attacks are uninterruptible.
Horse's Build: Active. Chant. Decreases loss of stamina, increases speed, health regeneration and grants poison resistance.
Salamander's Blood: Passive. Enhances Horse's Build. Increases health regeneration and gives resistance to all elements.
Moonlight Ode: [Ui]Active. Verse.[/i] Active Build skills now affect allied units for [X] or until your Chant ends.
[B]Rhino's Horn: Active. Verse. Melee attack. Grow a Rhino's Horn and charge on a straight line, attacking and running past all enemies, increase critical strike and Attack Rating.
Grasshoppers Legs: Active. Verse. Grow grasshopper's legs and jump, attacking and stunning the target.
Octopus' Arm: Active. Verse. Your arms bones vanish and your arms become tentacle-like. Increase your reach for X.
Sabertooth's Hunger: Active. Verse.Melee attack. Grow Sabertooth's fangs and make a bite attack that has life steal.
Bite like a Bulldog: Passive. Enhances Sabertooth’s Hunger and Release the Shackles. To Sabertooth’s Hunger: Increases damage, causes bleeding and when your attack is critical in addition to causing more damage, grabs your enemy and shake his body, causing damage on every enemy around you and leaving the target stunned for X seconds. To Release the Shackles: adds bleeding to attacks and leaves enemies stunned after a critical.
Cockatrice’s Visage: Active. Verse. While directly facing an enemy, speaks the truth that, for your eyes, Living and Inanimate matter are just the same. Turn the enemy into stone for X seconds.
Poisonous Humor: Active. Verse. You exude poison from your fangs and skin. Adds Poison damage on melee and ranged attacks.
Silk Breath: Active. Verse. The Druidic Bard spits a web, with a chance of trapping any targets on spot for X seconds, or decrease their speed. The Web is combustible.
Release the Shackles: Active. Verse. The most terrifying of all Druidic Bard’s Shapeshifting powers, with it he becomes a living weapon, as if he weren’t already. After a small prayer his changing begin as he howls with pain: fangs, thorns and bones grow piercing through every inch of his skin. After his change is over he lets the beasts urges control him, just until no enemy keeps standing… Not so long. The Druidic Bard causes area damage with each melee attack and reflects damage done to him. Last for X seconds. Costs mana and health. Long cool-down.


Notes on Nature’s Body: Since they are Chants, you cannot have more than one “Build” active, unless there’s more than one bard one group and at least one have Moonlight Ode active. Grasshopper’s legs: I think that wings would be too much obvious, right?

I know that Release the Shackles seems like a “whirlwind stance”, but take note that Fury and Zeal were effectively the same, double swing (and frenzy) was their little cousin and Dragon Talon… their sister. xD

3# Human Cunning [13 Skills]


Magic Harp: Active. Although the Bard's Music comes from within, there are powerful instruments that helps his abilities, with a quick prayer, the Bard can turn a Bow into a magic Harp that enhances temporarily all Music skills. Increase Range and effectiveness of Music during X seconds or until you attack with the bow or swap weapon.
Hands of a Healer: Active. The Bard knows that when the body faulters, not even the strongest minds can follow through. With his knowledge of Herbs and Human anatomy he can Heal X hit points from a target in a close radius.
Long-Winded: Passive. Increases the duration of all Verses and gives a chance that every Chant will maintain its effect for X seconds after the end of the casting.
Inspiration: Passive. Decreases the Mana cost of all Songs.
Fortissimmo: Passive. Increases the range of all Songs.
Evasion: Passive. Increases the effect of Dex on defenses.
Agile Striking: Passive. Adds a damage bonus for Dex to Melee attacks using 1-handed weapons and increases the pre-existing Dex bonus for Missile attacks. Effect increases with Rank.
Catch Missile: Passive. Has a chance of plucking or knocking missile right out of the air, rendering them harmless. Doesn’t work while casting Magic Harp.
Missile Mastery: Passive. Increases damage, accuracy, and speed of all missile attacks.
Dervish: Active. Melee attack. Spins very quickly, attacking a single target several times quickly, the number depends on Rank.
Spiteful Aiming: Passive. On critical strikes, has a chance of blinding target.
[B]Hunting Training: Passive. Advanced knowledge of creatures' anatomies increases the chance of Critical Hits. [Anatomy]
Item Lore: Passive. Has an increasing chance of Identifying items.


Notes on Human’s Cunning: no, this bard isn’t a double wielder. "Magic Harp": my own take of "how to make a 'song-only' Bard without adding a Banjo weapon?". I didn’t use Technomancer’s Virtuosity, it would be overpower, too much of his skills are songs, don’t you agree?

Hope you all like the new, cleaner topic.

See ya later!

LaZeR
03-07-2009, 14:45
Wow, long not very organized post.
I'll read all of it later. For now I must say, from what I HAVE read, especially on the other thread:

This is an Elf.

Fackelare
03-07-2009, 16:35
One point of critisism, the druid is obviously based on western European traditions/folklore, in particular the Celtic origins (with placenames such as Scosglen). Why take all manner of exotic animals of which a druid class person would never have heard of?

Snakes -> do not have a really good reputation among most peoples, nor would you attribute these things to the snakes living in western Europe, snakes become more active and faster in warm weathers.
Spiders -> I would only associate snakes and spiders with poison, but that might be just me... Only why are spiders fast? All they do is sit in their web all day long (not all of them no, but in general spiders=webs)
Bull -> sounds more like somthing that you would attribute to a bear than a bull, but it is not that far of a stretch...
Wolverine -> only found in very northern parts of Europe, would have probably not been known that well, if at all.
Horse -> no problems here...
Elephant -> Elephants, not very likely to be known to druidic people...
Chamaleon -> Idem.
Rhino -> Idem.
Grasshopper -> as far as I know, no insects hold any real value in western European folklore (they are simply not there through the winter) and therefore would be an odd choice. Perhaps a goat or deer could be more appropriate for jumping and the likes.
Octopus -> also seems a bit of a stretch from the bears/wolves/ravens from the original druid to an octopus...
Sabertooth -> dey be ded!

Assuming ofcourse they hold some relation to the druids from Scosglen (which almost has to be the case) otherwise it still seems like a rather random group of animals that were chosen...

lunarleif
03-07-2009, 18:35
Facklelare beat me to my job :(
Snakes normally become more active in warm temperature, but you're enchanting so you chose what you want and don't take anything else. Furthermore, there's magic involved Facklelare.
Spiders, ever heard of tarantulas that jump their prey? Furthermore, their webs increase awareness. Also, if they weren't fit to survive, why would they be in present day world?
Wolverine doesn't matter since the bard/druid has traveled... Think before you post.
Elephants, same as wolverine. Plus druids cover many areas and they communicate therefore they know things that do not inhabit their own land.
Grasshoppers can jump, and folklore doesn't care if you are big or small, only the heart matters :( (I don't agree)
It's trying not to be like the other druid :headbang: You are dense... Diablo 3 sponsors variety by thinking out of the box. They don't need to pull from past characters except for the barbarian.
Watch your spelling to, dy be ded!? ofcourse?

sirroman
03-07-2009, 18:43
Wow, long not very organized post.
I'll read all of it later. For now I must say, from what I HAVE read, especially on the other thread:

This is an Elf.

Like I said, it's a work in progress. Please expect it a "clean" version as soon as I have time.

"Elf", look, unless you are a very Old-school rpg player (original D&D) elf is a race, not a class.

Sorry, but I never heard of a "core-elf" that can shapeshift and use mostly music-based spells. Nah! I can't see that much semblance between this Bard and "an Elf", unless you jump into telling that every ranger class is "an Elf", that every archer class is "an Elf, heck! Is it a class that have any relation to the wild? (like the D2LoD Druid) It's an Elf!!!

And yes, even then, what's the problem? Didn't the elves come from Europe Mythologies? We can always pay some homage to Tolkien, right? And... No, there's no "elf" race on Diablo as far as my knowledge goes.

One point of critisism, the druid is obviously based on western European traditions/folklore, in particular the Celtic origins (with placenames such as Scosglen). Why take all manner of exotic animals of which a druid class person would never have heard of?

Snakes -> do not have a really good reputation among most peoples, nor would you attribute these things to the snakes living in western Europe, snakes become more active and faster in warm weathers.
Spiders -> I would only associate snakes and spiders with poison, but that might be just me... Only why are spiders fast? All they do is sit in their web all day long (not all of them no, but in general spiders=webs)
Bull -> sounds more like somthing that you would attribute to a bear than a bull, but it is not that far of a stretch...
Wolverine -> only found in very northern parts of Europe, would have probably not been known that well, if at all.
Horse -> no problems here...
Elephant -> Elephants, not very likely to be known to druidic people...
Chamaleon -> Idem.
Rhino -> Idem.
Grasshopper -> as far as I know, no insects hold any real value in western European folklore (they are simply not there through the winter) and therefore would be an odd choice. Perhaps a goat or deer could be more appropriate for jumping and the likes.
Octopus -> also seems a bit of a stretch from the bears/wolves/ravens from the original druid to an octopus...
Sabertooth -> dey be ded!

Assuming ofcourse they hold some relation to the druids from Scosglen (which almost has to be the case) otherwise it still seems like a rather random group of animals that were chosen...

Well, sorry if they seem random, I figured the name while I thought the mechanics, like always, the name are "placeholders". Even then...

Don't get stuck only on North animals and Druidic mythology, why?

1# We are talking about Diablo-Druidic-Mythology, we can't be sure about it. Blizz have the final word.
2# The Bard are born with Nature's Knowledge imprinted in their soul, so, yeah, if they can remember the language of the old Draconic race (which never appeared on Diablo world!) why can't they remember the ancient breeds of felines (sabertooth) or animals that live beyond their natal land (like elephants)?
3# The Bard is a traveler, he can meet this animals while he traveled, he isn't tutored by the "scholars", he is a self-made man that learn from experience and from the guidance of the Wild's Voice (gods, nature, whatever).

BUT I ask everybody, please, if you come up with better wording, better skill names, say here and I'll be glad to change it right away. Like I said the raw idea is commonhumans' and I quoted technomancer's class, he had a lot of nice ideas! ^^

I just walked the last steps. And want to polish this class shortly, but not now, have to work. Cya!

LaZeR
03-07-2009, 19:22
I'm sorry I should have been more specific:
This remainds me, ALOT, of LotR's Elves. Or at least there atmosphere.
I mean, they can be Furious melee fighter, masters in Bow and Arrow Range skills, co-exist perfectly with their suroundings and focus on Singing ALOT, which seems to be a part of the magical "powers".

And that just seems to be EXACTLY the foundations of your char, except for the ShapeShifting skills.

Not that this is a bad thing.

commonhumans
04-07-2009, 05:28
I think you may have credited me incorrectly Sirro! It was Technomancer who actually did all the work on the Bard fan class, I just convinced him to start working on it. :)

Fackelare
04-07-2009, 07:26
Don't get stuck only on North animals and Druidic mythology, why?

1# We are talking about Diablo-Druidic-Mythology, we can't be sure about it. Blizz have the final word.
2# The Bard are born with Nature's Knowledge imprinted in their soul, so, yeah, if they can remember the language of the old Draconic race (which never appeared on Diablo world!) why can't they remember the ancient breeds of felines (sabertooth) or animals that live beyond their natal land (like elephants)?
3# The Bard is a traveler, he can meet this animals while he traveled, he isn't tutored by the "scholars", he is a self-made man that learn from experience and from the guidance of the Wild's Voice (gods, nature, whatever).

It was only an idea, things I thought of while remembering what I know (or think I know) of diablo II's druid.
We do indeed know very little, except what was shown in Diablo II, we know that they are based on Celtic (and Germanic) mythology and that only the animals important to them (raven, wolf and bear) helped the druid. But come to think about it, they also used heart of wolverine, which is a bit of a stretch... And a grizzly bear only native to North America... And the extinct Dire Wolf, that is also only native to America... Perhaps I should play the game more often and realise that things are not as perfect as I remembered them to be.
But my point remains that these animals do not seem strange while, to me at least, some of these animals feel strange given what we already know about the druid.
And there is always a lore based explanation to give, I only stated that the choice of animals struk me as odd.

And yes, even then, what's the problem? Didn't the elves come from Europe Mythologies? We can always pay some homage to Tolkien, right? And... No, there's no "elf" race on Diablo as far as my knowledge goes.

Elves do indeed come from European mythology (germanic to be specific), the northern European, where most of the knowledge comes from, are nothing like tolkiens elves. They were servants of the gods, not nature loving hippies, and did not live in forests, since the gods lived on plains, (and thus so did they?).
And in local mythology the image differs from place to place, with a more Celtic influence in England, and different interpretations in the Netherlands and Germany.

sirroman
04-07-2009, 08:30
I would be glad if you gave me some more ideas now that I corrected and expanded the original text. ^^

Criticize! Druidic Bard v. 0.6 is ON! =DDD

I think you may have credited me incorrectly Sirro! It was Technomancer who actually did all the work on the Bard fan class, I just convinced him to start working on it. :)

You started the whole "bardic" movement hehe, and you pointed some relation between Bards and Druids, so the Raw inspiration comes from you.

Like I credit, Technomancer "fleshes" the class with skills and etc, but since the origins of our "bards" are so different, we can't say that I really take "inspiration" from his Fan Class, but reference, maybe? (yes!)

@Fackelare: As long as I know, the "classic RPG Elf" that we know is a creation of Tolkien. As long the "classic RPG dwarf", and etc. But it doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong.

What matters is this Fan Class, what you guys think of the "music system", of the (quite few yet) skills, of the Lore behind it.

What I want is you guys saying "I want to play this" or "I don't want to play this because of...".

What I want is "what about this"? Actually, Fackelare, please help me out changing the names of the skills (if you feel like)!

Technomancer
04-07-2009, 11:22
Yeah, our bards are pretty vastly different, but anything that you feel like you wanna use makes me feel all warm and fuzzy! :D

lunarleif
04-07-2009, 18:54
The forums have become a party of the bards! I think druid bard would be cool.
You have to remove all healing though, I think Bashiok said something about that.

sirroman
05-07-2009, 00:39
I'm well aware of that, lunarleif, but I put it anyway for the character CAN have healing powers.

If I'm not wrong, Bashiok said that the problem with healing is that it's very hard to balance specially with the new healing mechanic (red balls) and all.

No problem at all, I believe, if Blizz doesn't like it, just take it away ^^ (And I planned only a couple of healing skills anyway - one is Herb-based and the other is shape-shifting-based).

lunarleif
05-07-2009, 01:02
We have no intentions to create a tank, or healer, etc.
I guess that works only if it is small in overall picture or only applies to your character.

sirroman
05-07-2009, 18:18
Healing isn't a problem. ^^

The great challenge of this class is to create a "song" system that isn't tiresome neither annoying and at the same time artful and creative.

I believe that my "Music Mechanic" can do that. With a nice compositor Blizz could use that mechanic and be the first Game Developer to create a real Bard Class that we all would like to play or even spend time listening to it's music!

With an expansion and regular updates Blizz could actually create a database of songs, partial or full ones and it wouldn't be "meh" (that's what I strongly believe). With a nice deal of work before release real magic can be done... and Blizz is THE Game Developer to take this challenge!

Actually I thought about two mechanics, the one in the first post is better fit for Action, the second is better fit for "passtime", it would resolve around a "music panel" where you could mix and create a whole song at the end.

Yet I believe Blizz shouldn't let the players upload their work, it would be a descending spiral into chaos and flame. xD

There's a way to update the topic title? Anyone has any idea (about how to change the topic name)?

Technomancer
05-07-2009, 23:26
There's a way to update the topic title? Anyone has any idea (about how to change the topic name)?

I'm not sure, I tried like heck to change the name of my first arcane warrior post to elemental warrior, but I couldn't figure it out either.

lunarleif
06-07-2009, 06:04
Will you please make the top post easier to read :) I got lost :(

lunarleif
06-07-2009, 06:12
Yes, the problem with songs is, would you rather have cooler animations or songs? Better bosses or songs? I think it would be cool if you could take elements of songs and create skills out of them.
Example:
Skill elements: Phoenix, tree, aura, mirror.
You could then make a spell consist of 5 elements (skill point based)
Phoenix adds fire that dies done and "rebirths" into flame again after a period. Comes and dies 5 times
Tree holds opponents.
Aura makes the affect also apply to an area around you.
Mirror makes several of the song's affects. Makes 2 of the original.
So you could make a song that consisted of mirror, phoenix, mirror, tree, and phoenix.
This would make a spell that splayed out 6 times so there would be flame that came back 10 times and held opponents down for a period of time.
Problem: Early development and sounds suspiciously like the rune system :(

sirroman
06-07-2009, 16:01
Yes, the problem with songs is, would you rather have cooler animations or songs? Better bosses or songs? I think it would be cool if you could take elements of songs and create skills out of them.
Example:
Skill elements: Phoenix, tree, aura, mirror.
You could then make a spell consist of 5 elements (skill point based)
Phoenix adds fire that dies done and "rebirths" into flame again after a period. Comes and dies 5 times
Tree holds opponents.
Aura makes the affect also apply to an area around you.
Mirror makes several of the song's affects. Makes 2 of the original.
So you could make a song that consisted of mirror, phoenix, mirror, tree, and phoenix.
This would make a spell that splayed out 6 times so there would be flame that came back 10 times and held opponents down for a period of time.
Problem: Early development and sounds suspiciously like the rune system :(

Yeah, in my previous post that's EXACTLY the second "song mechanic" that I was talking about, you would create them before hand and then use them in battle.

But exactly because you would need to create them before hand, and that sometimes your "songs" don't fit your need, it would be a quite complicate mechanic. So I went for a more "Improvise it!" mechanic. And since it would be quite hard to create everything and balance it, it wouldn't be that worth.

But hey! Implementing the "Chant & Verse" music system isn't that hard! It isn't logical to ask "cooler animations or songs? Better bosses or songs?" because it won't take that much time of the programmers!. Blizzard would contract somebody to write and play the songs and somebody else (an sound specialist) to help with the "hard" part that would be superimpose the "verse" on the "chant". Only. The programmers would continue working like usual.

About the changes in the topic, yeah, I want to, but I won't have time 'till tomorrow. If you are kind to point the things that specially bugs you... thanks!

sirroman
08-07-2009, 09:55
Ok, ok!

Now the v.1.0 is up!

44 skills. 22 of them fully original! While most of the others have some diference here or there.

Take your time taking a look. My next update shall be of Background (or one skill here and there, maybe ^^).

Technomancer
08-07-2009, 11:38
Wow, that's really coming together! The new revision reads MUCH better.

One question though. What makes you think all the skills will be in one tree, not three? Something I'm not aware of?

sirroman
10-07-2009, 07:08
Take a look, this new "build" is essentialy "one big skill tree". Actually the second quote is also from Bashiok and he says exactly what I just said.

Source for all quotes: http://www.blizzblues.com/us/skill-trees-16903518463.html

As you mentioned and I had said in that rather lengthy post (Dont like the word "talent tree" http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=16137707438&postId=161356375740&sid=3000#48), we're under heavy iteration. The version shown off with BlizzCast was a prototype in many ways, and a jumping off point in others.

We're working with a modified skill tree system now of what we showed, under heavy testing and scrutiny. It's of course not final, the ideas it proposes are something we're happy with in their direction but they could very well change. In fact I would bet on them continuing to evolve.

So, the system we have now... you'll have to just picture it without any visual representation, sorry. They're not radically different visually except that the trees are all viewable at the same time. Taking the barbarian trees for instance (berserker, battlemaster, juggernaut) they're not tabbed now, but instead all viewable at the same time. Side by side.

This is important due to how they are now a unified tier progression. Instead of spending 5 points in the berserker tree to then begin spending points in the second tier of the berserker tree, the new design allows you to spend wherever you like. As long as your points in the first tier of skills adds up to five, the next tier for all trees is unlocked.

So, I could spend 2 points in Heightened Senses which is a berserker skill, and 3 points in Bash which is a Juggernaut skill, thus adding up to 5 points and granting me access to the second tier of skills for all of the trees. With this amount of freedom you can see how easy it is then to diversify yourself and your build. You're no longer gaining abilities through investment, but instead more through choice and personal preference.

It certainly diversifies the types and amounts of builds available to players, that's obvious. This style of a unified tier approach also helps in a few other areas though. Since all of the trees are open we can clean up the trees a lot more, removing redundant abilities. We don't have to throw in skills that are important, such as damage mitigation, all over the place. You will always have access to those skills no matter where you're spending, so they can instead be focused into a few key skills. Another way it helps is by allowing players access to the skills they want, and the skills we want them to have. Every barbarian is probably going to want whirlwind. And why not? What this tree style allows for, and one reason we're pretty keen on it, is that we aren't saying "You're a 'berserker' barbarian, you can't have whirlwind". Instead, you're a barbarian!, pick the key skills that define you and your character as you want them to be.

One important addition to this is the skill caps themselves. Currently we're envisioning the majority of skills to be capped at 5 points, to begin with. As a form of progression we're planning for players to be able to increase the point caps of skills. More than likely to a maximum of 15. It's a system that's still under heavy design, but the fact of choosing and increasing key skills beyond their initial cap is important to this new unified tier system.

So, once again these are things that are still under heavy design and iteration. They're changes we're testing, and while we like how they play there are certainly issues or flaws that could cause an entire switch to something else.

Somebody said "if you make it that way then what's the point in skill trees at all, you could've just made one tree with more tiers.."

Essentially it is a single tree. The separation does a couple things though. It groups similarly themed abilities, and it provides a nice separation. You can also quickly describe your build to someone else. "Oh I'm a jugger barb with 10/10 WW"

Somebody said "and this only encourages cookie cutter builds, cause players will eventually find out what the best skills are (mathematical approach), and exploit it, since they can freely choose the best skills
i just don't see this working, and frankly don't like it at all..."

There will always be cookie cutter builds. There will always be the builds that when coupled with specific items put out the most damage, and players will find them. That's just a fact. The best we can do is balance to a point where there are as many viable builds as possible. That there isn't a single end-all-be-all. Or, that there isn't a build that is required to play the game. That all comes down to balance more than anything.

Regardless, this setup doesn't make the possibility of cookie cutters existence more or less possible. What it does is potentially makes them more varied though. There's a much larger possibility for variety here.

Also you're going to want to still focus on a relatively small amount of abilities as you're not going to be able to raise, or more importantly spend enough points, to raise all skills to a potential 15 point cap. (remember when I said that was an important part?)

So if you want to be the barbarian that spreads his points all over the place and is sort of jack of all trades, that's fine. And it should still work. I'll have my focus-fire barb where I've raised the caps on two or three specific skills, and built my entire set of gear, runes, etc. to feed those skills. Someone else may have done something similar but in different trees. Someone else may go the jack of all trades route for variety and survivability. Someone else may want to try a build that doesn't leave the berserker tree. etc. etc.

Technomancer
10-07-2009, 10:20
Ahh!! That's very good info I hadn't seen (except for a bit in the 'level 20 skills' thread)! I saw the 7 tier pic a couple weeks ago though, and knew that they were changing things around, but the old system is the only one we've got good info on, so I've just been going with that until we get an official example of a new working system, probably at Blizzcon. They don't sound like they're getting rid of skill trees though, just putting them all on one page and trying to get rid of the overlaps.

sirroman
22-07-2009, 08:18
What I like 'bout this new system is that they essentially took away the "I will have to spend one point in each wolf just to have the bear" and the "now I am lvl 30! finally I can spend the 25 skill points I saved!"

Technomancer
22-07-2009, 08:38
Yeah, that's pretty lame. I think that there should be SOME pre-reqs like that, but in D2, they were silly. I'm required to spend a bunch of points on completely unrelated skills to get Redemption or Lower Resist? Please...