Why all the elitism? [Archive] - Diablo 3 & Diablo 2 Forums

Nextt

02-07-2009, 10:37

I've seen lots of people saying that merely practical gear should still require item runs. I've seen people demand unfindable items like high runes stay in. I've seen others wanting to keep trading instead of using any currency because it requires the player to have more knowledge. I've seen people bashing any respec abilities because it would mean people wouldn't have to rebuild. I've seen pro-PK players spouting some "survival of the fittest" motto.

What gives? Why should any frustrating feature continue to exist when they're making a brand new game? Is there really anything that can be gained by making a game inaccessible to new players?

And this quote from other guy
I agree. Most of us, no matter how much we love Diablo, will not be able to devote ridiculous amounts of time to playing. Jobs, families, other hobbies, etc. will guarantee a lot of us never get that extremely elite, uber rare loot. I'm not saying everything should be too common, as that defeats re-playability and diminishes some of the fun, but IMO there shouldn't be an item that you only have a 0.0002% chance of finding.

Stop whining about elitism the game is probably 50/50 split in this regard, Personally by alot of definitions of people im an elitest sure. What makes me this way? for one im a competitive person whether its a video game or a game about who can hook up with that girl first or who is the best at beer pong etc. Then as far as the elitism goes, I can not be lets say(random numbers) lvl 90 and deal 50000dps and then see someone next to me who is lvl 90 dealing 70000dps when he is same class and items. I can't handle that and thats probably why it doesn't happen. But quite simply I can't be that person who is 2 steps behind that other guy. Why not? Competitive gene? I don't know but I simply feel like whats the point in playing this game if I'm not going to try to be / be, the best at it? I don't play a game to "kill creatures" I play to 1. play with friends with play, 2. KILL / DEFEAT / BE BETTER THAN , the person who is maybe living 20 miles away or further.

are you saying you have never dueled before? If you have guess what, your being an elitest right there. If you have ever PvP'ed more than once, your being an elitest. Unless of course your that guy who makes the summon druid and spams his horrible bear outside while he sits in town.... then I don't know why you play that game still, you might as well jump around the top of the bank in WoW.... WOW THATS FUN.

1. Why no item runs? i mean how else do you get items? every mob in the last zone has a chance of all dropping the best gear and/or exact/only things used to make best items. 95% of people I hope don't like that, its saying hello i have been playing the game for 1 week(even 3-4 months is to soon("taking the average playtime per day being 1-2 hours) taking into consideration how stuff was added to Diablo2 I don't really know if there going to be adding in huge amounts of content every 3-6 months like they do in WoW its an RPG so what / how could they add something in? another act? i dout that, maybe a new way of opening a portal to a dungeon like place, k thats fine with me but that means adding in harder mobs / bosses which means better loot which means non elitest cry because "they can seem to be able to do it" so 4 months in you have every best piece of gear now what do i do, its sorta pointless and D2 was infact like that which is why you got bored and quit and same here.

2. Hr's were way to low thats true but if it was increased just a bit it would of been fine "UNTIL runewords were added" then I agree that it should of been significantly increased. But if you look at it what about the hella godly rare/ some crafted things, i have to say i like the lower rate of those appearing.

3. The trading isn't about not having a currency or requiring more knowledge those are just extras that come with the rest, there was a currency in D2 trading SoJ's than Hr's, and whats even BETTER is pgems could be used as a mini currency of the currency in order to get currency. Like (random numbers) 20 pgems for 1 hr or 1 soj so essentially that helps newbies get currency also. and a couple points.(1). currency in diablo shouldn't be coins(which they already stated they don't plan on it due to uniqueness of the item trading) and (2). It's about the fun aspect and challenge aspect(definition of challenge being you can't enter a game offer someone some crappy thing like stigens set for an 400 dmg grief). If trading is made to easy everyone will run around completely decked, then guess what you will fall to bordem. (like now which it wouldn't be if duping didn't come about) and also auction house system is boring.

4. I agree with respecing should exist, if you couldn't rush in D2 than we would of all died a tragic death when you put that 1 extra point in strength you didn't want to put in.

5. Natural Selection does exist in every aspect of everything whether a game or life.

Now onto the next guy.
1. If you could play lets say 1 hour a day at least or the average incase maybe you spend 3 hour on a weekend when u spend non on a weekday. You could play even less and eventually you will get the same gear as everyone else, no BoP or BoE items + it's not an MMO(meaning you don't need 25 people to do an instance that takes hours to do and hours of wiping on bosses to get the best gear) Im guessing max any boss will require is 3 and thats in the beginning, you will be able to solo any boss by the time ur decked. (this is assuming 5 people max per game like some people have estimated)

2. Well said on "I'm not saying everything should be too common, as that defeats re-playability and diminishes some of the fun", however by saying .0002% you did over-exaggerate. Maybe there should be some items with like a .05% -.5% chance to get. DEPENDING on how D3 is done tho, not really enough is known about what kind of percentages would seem viable.

EDIT
and next guy said this
"But blizzard could always make special PvP places/tournaments that have additional rules concerning items and skills."

1. Items and skills with diff rules = unneeded this isn't WoW where theres a pally with lay on hands to use every game.

2. Special PvP places = good perhaps a whole diff map from D3 thats a game thats up 24/7 and is really more of a PvPvE area that also holds perhaps more people with max party being same as a normal game. (I dout this will happen but personally i love this)

3. Tournaments = Definitely for those of us who like competitive play, however rewards shouldn't be special items that are extra good PvP (like PvP gear with resilience in WoW is horrible). Perhaps rewards just simply title and/or can make your items look diff / glow or something like that.

NASE

02-07-2009, 12:18

Starving_Poet

02-07-2009, 14:47

sreda

02-07-2009, 14:52

Nextt

02-07-2009, 15:00

Some people believe that the game should fit to their vision, and anything Blizzard does that adds things not in their vision should be vociferously fought against.

They don't want to give people the choice to play the way they want because they believe that they are smarter than everyone else.

These same people will grow up to be politicians.

That has nothing to do with people talking about elitism... And if ur saying is about my post my vision is tending to stay more true to the game of Diablo and its how i feel blizzard is probably going to do anyways. They don't wan't to mix Diablo with WoW that much or else they might as well had not made D3. Meaning no auction house or gold currency or special pvp items! and more but im to lazy to write it.

And if you were talking about my post, again not the first person to say I'm going to be a politician when I grow up.

GuardianHadriel

02-07-2009, 15:35

god damn, it would be hard to introduce freinds to diablo...?

Starving_Poet

02-07-2009, 17:35

And if you were talking about my post, again not the first person to say I'm going to be a politician when I grow up.

I wasn't referring to your post; but if someone tells you that, it is not a compliment. :whistling:

Galtrovan

02-07-2009, 18:19

I agree. Most of us, no matter how much we love Diablo, will not be able to devote ridiculous amounts of time to playing. Jobs, families, other hobbies, etc. will guarantee a lot of us never get that extremely elite, uber rare loot. I'm not saying everything should be too common, as that defeats re-playability and diminishes some of the fun, but IMO there shouldn't be an item that you only have a 0.0002% chance of finding.

0.0002% chance... considering what the actual %chance of finding a Ber or higher rune is in D2, 0.0002% would be a very welcome increase!

s4nder

02-07-2009, 18:24

0.0002% chance... considering what the actual %chance of finding a Ber or higher rune is in D2, 0.0002% would be a very welcome increase!

Indeed. Maybe if it were 0,0002% I'd have found a rune higher than Gul in the eight years of LoD played.

Galtrovan

02-07-2009, 18:25

2. Well said on "I'm not saying everything should be too common, as that defeats re-playability and diminishes some of the fun", however by saying .0002% you did over-exaggerate. Maybe there should be some items with like a .05% -.5% chance to get. DEPENDING on how D3 is done tho, not really enough is known about what kind of percentages would seem viable.

.0002% is not an exaggeration... Ber and above are worse than that, Zod is in the .00003% range. Rune drops rates in D2 are well beyond freaking ridiculous.

Galtrovan

02-07-2009, 18:29

Indeed. Maybe if it were 0,0002% I'd have found a rune higher than Gul in the eight years of LoD played.

Yes, they could easily multiply 0.0002% by 10 or even 100 and the runes would still be damn hard to find.

s4nder

02-07-2009, 18:30

Bashiok has said that the high end runewords were supposed to be a one per realm thing. Thanks to dupers now almost everyone's running (or rather, teleporting) around in an Enigma two weeks after the ladder reset and legit players never see a high rune drop in their lives.

Kiroptus

02-07-2009, 20:44

The game already can be completed in 3 different ways mindsets, Normal difficult (casual) Nightmare (middle-ground) Hell (Elite players). I wouldnt like to see basic gear being already enough to beat hell difficult it would just be boring, a game like diablo doesnt need to catter to just one or another but you expect that the final moments of the game (in this case, Hell difficult) will require a lot more from the player and thats completely normal.

Nextt

03-07-2009, 03:11

.0002% is not an exaggeration... Ber and above are worse than that, Zod is in the .00003% range. Rune drops rates in D2 are well beyond freaking ridiculous.

yeah thats true, it wasn't really taken in the way of how I had ment to say it.

emopanda

05-07-2009, 16:54

0.0002% chance... considering what the actual %chance of finding a Ber or higher rune is in D2, 0.0002% would be a very welcome increase!

Well, I have never found Ber but I did found Lo x 3 times in my 8 years of d2, Once in Frigi highlands elitch, One at travincal hell council, and another time in hell council at meph, all hell mode patch 1.11 and 1.12

CombatShrine

05-07-2009, 18:31

Gear I think won't be as big of a deal in Diablo 3, since everyone will get their own private item drops, and therefore there is a great incentive to play together, thus making things a little easier.

I agree that rune drops are way too low. In the 8 years I have played LOD, the highest rune I have seen drop on battle.net was an Ist (didn't get it because it was a pubby game and everyone was using pickit).

The highest rune I have ever seen drop was oddly enough, on my single player game. I was killing stuff in the frozen river a5 hell, and a Cham rune dropped :D.

Kind of bittersweet considering it was sp. Oh well!

Keldon Hero

05-07-2009, 19:12

The part that bothers me about D2 is when you have to be an elitist to succed with most melee builds. Other than say a smitter try ubering or eight person hell baal game with a barb, zealer or a wolf and not using elite runewords or similar weapons. It takes for ever because you simply can't do enough damage without elite gear. This always bothered me running ladder because I love physical damage builds like frenzy barbs but was forced to play hammerdines, blizz sorcs, and necros. I'm hoping d3 will be challenging but still make it reasnable to be able to build a char with gear i can actualy find I shouldn't have to dupe or spend 20 hours a day playing to have fun.

Keldon Hero

05-07-2009, 19:15

As far as high runes go i've found 2x ist n 1x vex n ive been playing for almost a decade. I read once that you have a better chance of being killed by a planec that falls out of the sky after being struck by lightning then finding zod.

imaginedvl

05-07-2009, 20:45

Knight_Wolf

05-07-2009, 22:25

As I said. Frustrating for you... Yes you will gain new players by making the game easier but you will render the game not fun at all for a lot of existing player too. I don't see any gain here.

Making the game accessible doesn't necessarily or in any way mean it will be less easier or less fun .. actually quite the opposite ... and just trying to say accessibly is the opposite of challenging is really laughable.

I don't know about your gaming background but i have played countless games on both PC and Consoles and saw both types of games ... games that are fun, accessible but still challenging (in which even if you fail you don't mind playing over an over cause you know it was totally your fault you failed .. and you keep trying over and over while still having fun) .. and other games that are frustrating and challenging ... the type of games that makes you grind your teeth whenever you fail cause you know you couldn't do a thing about it .... in short .. BADLY designed games can be very challenging .. but for the very wrong reasons.

So that 2nd type of games that makes you want to throw your keyboard or controller at the monitor/screen is "challenging" indeed .. but not fun or accessible in anyway ... and if a person for some arcane reason enjoys that type of frustrating broken challenging game and it tickles his elitism he/she has no right to force it on everyone by refusing to add accessibility to the game ... on the other hand with that added accessibility those elitists can still challenge themselves all they want (and it is pretty easy to challenge one's self in any game by creating your own rules) while the other normal players enjoy the game they deserve and paid money for.

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There is a difference between "inaccessible" and not being able to get everything into the game... Seriously. If you want to talk about Elitism at least do not use extreme words like this...

It's not just "not being able to get everything in the game" .. it's far more than that .... it's having to deal with tons of frustration and bull**** to enjoy portions of the game that should otherwise have been accessible and fun not the other way around.

Take the PvP for example ... even when valid complaints were filed to Blizz-North regarding the PvP problems (player killers, exploits and grieving) the team itself acted in a very elitist and arrogant way and shoved all those complaints aside as if those complaining didn't pay to enjoy playing the game in any mode they desire without having to deal with the tons of problems and frustrating issues that infested the PvP mode .. they weren't even given the bare minimum of accessibility here .. and that's just one example (we are talking about a whole mode here not just some hi-end gear piece or items)

Speaking of items .... it's not just the problem of not being able to obtain some items (which are super ridiculously rare) but the whole idea that getting those items requires mindless bouts of grinding and boss runs and long hours of dedication .... it wouldn't have been such a big problem if those items were for bragging rights and didn't impact the game .. but that wasn't the case ... they did impact the game on several levels .. the PvP .. farming more and more items got even easier by using such items (i.e using Enigma to skip levels by any class now) .. and that had it's undeniable negative effects on the whole end game and on the normal players.

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Simply put ... elitists have an unfair edge over normal players, one that has nothing to do with competition or actual player skills like most other multi-player games (The D2 team tried to make D2 multi-player like an MMO when it clearly isn't and can't be one .. instanced MP games work entirely different than MMOs and it seems they missed that point)

And that so called edge the elitsts has helps them ruin the game for the normal players if they desire so and the normal players can't do a thing about it other than grind their teeth .. or have to be pushed into a corner and forced to change the way they play significantly (i.e forcing them to make pass-worded games to play away from the elitists ..... but that can't be excused or tolerated ... i mean what the heck !!! .. what if they didn't have any friends online at the time or even any friends who play Diablo to join in their pass-worded games .. it's just downright stupid and frustrating to force them to play in a way they don't want to to avoid tons of frustration and annoyances).

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To sum things up

1-Elitists has no right to force their style on everyone by refusing to add accessibility to the game ... on the other hand with that added accessibility those elitists can still challenge themselves all they want by creating their own rules.

2-D2 broken design gave elitists an unfair edge over normal players, one that has nothing to do with competition or actual player skills like most other multi-player games do, but an edge that allowed those elitists to ruin the game for normal players easily or force them to change the way they play significantly which isn't fair or even 1% competitive.

3-A well designed game can be accessible, fun and challenging at the same time ... only if the developer isn't a lazy bum and uses his brain .. it has been done before and could be done again and again with some effort .. it's just that it is much much easier to make a broken, badly designed game to make it feel challenging rather than putting some effort into a fun, accessible and challenging game.

Nimbostratus

05-07-2009, 23:17

Simply put ... elitists have an unfair edge over normal players, one that has nothing to do with competition or actual player skills like most other multi-player games
Thank you. This is exactly the thing that bugs me. When an enemy or other player is difficult for me to beat, I want it to be because I lack skill, not because I lack the patience to run Mephisto for five weeks.

And on a side note, does anybody spouting that "you can still beat the game on Normal and Nightmare" argument realize how completely pointless it is? Do you know anybody who's fine with a character that can only beat normal? Do you know of any guides not focused on a Hell-viable build? The problem is that Normal, Nightmare, and Hell are not separate difficulties. You beat Normal, you go on to Nightmare. You beat Nightmare, you go on to Hell. It's one continuous journey; the difficulties are, in effect, more like separate acts rather than regular difficulty settings. If the difficulty settings were entirely separate, only then would the argument hold water.

imaginedvl

05-07-2009, 23:47

Making the game accessible doesn't necessarily or in any way mean it will be less easier or less fun .. actually quite the opposite ... and just trying to say accessibly is the opposite of challenging is really laughable.

What is laughable is that this thread is all about "Elistist" players (those player who do not want easy drops, free respec etc...) and now you come with an "Making the game accessible does not necessarily less fun"... It basicaly means that it will be less fun for them (if we keep talking about what the OP said...). This maybe why those people are QQing like you say about those changes (if they happens), maybe because unlike you they "don't like it" and this without being an hardcore gamer playing hundred of hours to farm stuff...

I don't know about your gaming background but i have played countless games on both PC and Consoles and saw both types of games ... games that are fun, accessible but still challenging (in which even if you fail you don't mind playing over an over cause you know it was totally your fault you failed .. and you keep trying over and over while still having fun) .. and other games that are frustrating and challenging ... the type of games that makes you grind your teeth whenever you fail cause you know you couldn't do a thing about it .... in short .. BADLY designed games can be very challenging .. but for the very wrong reasons.

So that 2nd type of games that makes you want to throw your keyboard or controller at the monitor/screen is "challenging" indeed .. but not fun or accessible in anyway ... and if a person for some arcane reason enjoys that type of frustrating broken challenging game and it tickles his elitism he/she has no right to force it on everyone by refusing to add accessibility to the game ... on the other hand with that added accessibility those elitists can still challenge themselves all they want (and it is pretty easy to challenge one's self in any game by creating your own rules) while the other normal players enjoy the game they deserve and paid money for. [/quote]

Are you out of you mind there? Well, for a badly designed game, Diablo 2 had a huge success. Lets talk about background, for your information I never had any character in Diablo 2 higher than let say 65... You know there is other people than those Elitists like you call them who enjoy that kind of gameplay too. You seems to be blinded behind what is your vision of a "funny" game. The game may be funny for you but not at all for others. You have to realize that. And you can arg for years by throwing here your definition of a funny or not-funny game, there are tons of other players who enjoy it that way. Elitists or not to use your terms.

As I said I totaly understand why you may not like Diablo and the way it is designed; and I respect it. Now it is your own oppinion but coming with that kind of arguments about those players who actualy like it and threaten then as "Elistist" is kinda insulting for those like me who like the game that way too without necessarly being an hardcore player and all that.

To sum things up[/U][/B]

1-Elitists has no right to force their style on everyone by refusing to add accessibility to the game ... on the other hand with that added accessibility those elitists can still challenge themselves all they want by creating their own rules.

2-D2 broken design gave elitists an unfair edge over normal players, one that has nothing to do with competition or actual player skills like most other multi-player games do, but an edge that allowed those elitists to ruin the game for normal players easily or force them to change the way they play significantly which isn't fair or even 1% competitive.

3-A well designed game can be accessible, fun and challenging at the same time ... only if the developer isn't a lazy bum and uses his brain .. it has been done before and could be done again and again with some effort .. it's just that it is much much easier to make a broken, badly designed game to make it feel challenging rather than putting some effort into a fun, accessible and challenging game.

To sum things up: For you, an Elitist player is a player who actualy enjoy the game the way it is and do not want things to be changed (of course they want a new game but they want the core to stay the same, especialy about the item rarity and the create one character per build). I don't see that as Elitist and even with your wall of text I did not see any thing who prove me that Diablo 3 may be "inaccessible" to play for casual gamer. Of course my definition of accessible does not include "being able to do everything and to get everything" and if for you "Tons of frustration" happens while playing this game then maybe you are playing the wrong game... I'm not saying that because you do not agree with me but seriously you are insulting other people of elitist because at the end you do not like the game the way it is (or few aspect are frustrating for you). Well it is the same for those players who like it the way it is now (and do not find it frustrating), they are right too while wanting this game to stay the same if they like it this way and if you want them to at least respect your points and maybe understand it a little; you should do the same instead of treating them of Elitists.

I find the game nice that way and I don't like what the OP proposed to be changed. That's it. I'm not an elitist.

imaginedvl

06-07-2009, 00:26

Thank you. This is exactly the thing that bugs me. When an enemy or other player is difficult for me to beat, I want it to be because I lack skill, not because I lack the patience to run Mephisto for five weeks.

And on a side note, does anybody spouting that "you can still beat the game on Normal and Nightmare" argument realize how completely pointless it is? Do you know anybody who's fine with a character that can only beat normal? Do you know of any guides not focused on a Hell-viable build? The problem is that Normal, Nightmare, and Hell are not separate difficulties. You beat Normal, you go on to Nightmare. You beat Nightmare, you go on to Hell. It's one continuous journey; the difficulties are, in effect, more like separate acts rather than regular difficulty settings. If the difficulty settings were entirely separate, only then would the argument hold water.

I would say the same about people spouting that "they are elitist" if they do not agree with your oppinion...

And for your point, it is very easy to arg that Hell level was designed for those "Elitist" like you call them. And if you want to "beat" the game you have to become one hardcore gamer or you won't. The same is true with many different type of game: World of Warcraft, Call of Duty (with all prestige levels), even Oblivion or Final Fantasy... All those game "may become frustrating" when you want to beat them. If you don't like it, just keep playing the "normal" mode. So you can start to complain about all games because the more your advance the more difficult and frustrating it is and a LOT of them ask you to be very dedicated (like an Elite player...)...

Knight_Wolf

06-07-2009, 01:14

It basicaly means that it will be less fun for them

The game being less fun for an elitist hardcore minority is far better than it being inaccessible and frustrating for the majority of the player base ... it's a fairly obvious choice and explains why Blizz is making the choices they are making.

Are you out of you mind there? Well, for a badly designed game, Diablo 2 had a huge success.

Out of my mind !!! .. lols ... not at all .. the problem with gamer elitists is that their love for their games blinds them from seeing their obvious glaring flaws and shortcomings ... being successful doesn't mean in any way that it was perfect or without serious flaws specially regarding the MP ... thousands of those who bought it refrained from playing the MP after experiencing its load of problems or ignored it from the get to go because they don't care ... and that's why Blizz is now keen on attracting those tow by FIXING the problems with the MP and trying to make it attractive for even SP players.

Lets talk about background, for your information I never had any character in Diablo 2 higher than let say 65... You know there is other people than those Elitists like you call them who enjoy that kind of gameplay too. You seems to be blinded behind what is your vision of a "funny" game. The game may be funny for you but not at all for others. You have to realize that. And you can arg for years by throwing here your definition of a funny or not-funny game, there are tons of other players who enjoy it that way. Elitists or not to use your terms.

First it's FUN not "funny" , second ... it's not about being fun for some and not the others .. the point that hardcore elitists keep missing over and over for some reason is that what they want completely ruins the game for other while what benefits the large normal player base has little impact on the elitists gameplay and in most cases can be ignored with ease.

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To sum things up: For you, an Elitist player is a player who actualy enjoy the game the way it is and do not want things to be changed (of course they want a new game but they want the core to stay the same, especialy about the item rarity and the create one character per build). I don't see that as Elitist and even with your wall of text I did not see any thing who prove me that Diablo 3 may be "inaccessible" to play for casual gamer.

First ... not wanting the game to change eventhough it has glaring flaws and problems that hinder the experience is the worst thing about hardcore elitists.

Second ... it doesn't matter what YOU or I consider the core of the game ... that's what the developers decide .. Diablo at it's most simple form is an action game played from a top down view with RPG elements .. IMO only when something detracts from this simple core definition that people has the right to actually worry.

Third .. if D3 is made the same like the elitists want it it will just be D2.5 or D2 with 3D graphics tacked on .. not to mention an archiac and overly outdated game ... NO thank you.

"being able to do everything and to get everything"

Nobody said that definition is what accessible and fun is like .. and it also isn't what the majority of the normal player base wants .. elitists just think that's what the normal player want because they are afraid the upcoming changes/fixes will take away from their so called hardcore-ness ... so i'm not obliged to abide by it since it's filled with exaggeration.

But if i'd put in a more correct form it would be "being able to do everything and to get everything by playing in a healthy competitive multiplayer environment and overcoming well thought/designed challenges"

and if for you "Tons of frustration" happens while playing this game then maybe you are playing the wrong game

Or maybe something is wrong with the game .. which is quite obviously what many people and the Devs team agree on regardless of what the elitists might think .. that's why many thing s are getting fixed in D3 .. but elitists are too in love with their D2 to see its obvious flaws.

I find the game nice that way and I don't like what the OP proposed to be changed. That's it. I'm not an elitist.

That's like walking forward and telling people around you are stationary and that they are the ones walking backwards ... the mentality that likes a game for its flaws and considers them brilliant things (usually because of how easily abusable or exploitable they are) is the hardcore elitist mentality (yeah it isn't just the group of people who get 100% out of the game content and play it 24/7)... found in not just Diablo community but in the whole gaming community.

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So what elitists seem to miss over and over (and obviously over again) is that the things they are demanding actively destroy the enjoyment of the game, degrades and ruins the experience for the other majority of players since it gives them an unfair edge over the other players and enables them to take advantage of the game exploits ... and that's more of a reason why they don't want to give it up and complain when ever a problem is fixed or an exploit removed.

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In gears of war for example .. there was a glitch that enabled players to roll forward and fire the shotgun in quick succession ... hardcore MP players abused that and loved it considering it part of the core of the MP games ... but the developers clearly saw that it is ruining the game experience for everybody else so they removed the glitch in the sequel's MP (GoW2) and made all heavy weapons and shotguns have a strong recoil that pushes the player backwards so it won't be possible to roll and fire that same way .. the elitists hardcore MP players whined about it but it was obvious the developers made the right choice.

Same is happening with D3 ... the developers won't refrain from fixing their game and making sure it provides a fun, fair and challenging environment for all players not just an elitist minority that wants the game to stay broken as it was with all its problems because for some reason they enjoyed it that way.

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Another example to make it more clear since this enthusiastic hardcore extremism can blind people's eyes easily.

Let's say two people want to cross a rope bridge passing over s chasm inside a dark cave ... the elite person wants to cross it in the dark because he finds that challenging .. so he refuses to let the other normal person hold a lantern to light the way because it "reduces the challenge" ..... that's the major problem all elitist utterly fail to see ... the elitists guy could simple close his eyes and cross without his "challenge getting reduced one bit" while the normal guy can use the lantern because he doesn't give a damn about that challenge he just wants to cross the bridge alive ... but the elitists guy insisting on total darkness will simply make the normal person end up dead at the bottom of a chasm just because the elitists guy is too close minded to simply let him use a lantern so they both get what they want and cross the bridge each in his own way.

If only the elitist person would make his own darkness by closing his eyes to get his challenge (i.e make his own rules) and let the other person use the lantern (i.e accessibility and competitiveness) all would be just fine .. the problem .. elitists can't stand letting anyone have things any way other than exactly 100% what they want .. which is just sad.

/Ahm .. sorry for the wall of text XD

imaginedvl

06-07-2009, 01:46

The game being less fun for an elitist hardcore minority is far better than it being inaccessible and frustrating for the majority of the player base ... it's a fairly obvious choice and explains why Blizz is making the choices they are making.

A minotiry? Well lets stop this here. Random numbers like that are always good for those kind of thread. Anyways, my point was all about this "Elitist" term used to defined people (LIKE ME) who are not hardcore gamer at all but still love the game that way. Again your wall of text to try to explain me that you find it frustrating that way (like others) will not change my mind.

First it's FUN not "funny"

Maybe the rest of the post was very interresting but I stopped to read here. Sorry but my primary language is "not" english as you certainly noticed and it is already hard enough to keep talking about the OP message without going in all possible direction to have to deal with this thing. I'm doing my best to write in the best english.

Good luck dude with all those elitist people. Looks like I'm one of them with my level 65 barbarian and I still hope that Blizzard will not allow Respec and will keep those very high items (I especialy really love that in Diablo 2); which is the main subject of this thread, remember?. Nothing personal here but was just trying to show you that there is no link between elitist people and the fact that lot of us do not want those changes because we do not find them as FLAWS but instead we enjoy the actual implementation.

CaptainDingo

06-07-2009, 02:01

That has nothing to do with people talking about elitism... And if ur saying is about my post my vision is tending to stay more true to the game of Diablo and its how i feel blizzard is probably going to do anyways. They don't wan't to mix Diablo with WoW that much or else they might as well had not made D3. Meaning no auction house or gold currency or special pvp items! and more but im to lazy to write it.

And if you were talking about my post, again not the first person to say I'm going to be a politician when I grow up.

You people need to stop relating auction houses and gold currency (and EVERYTHING) to WoW. Just... stop it.

If you think WoW invented a single aspect of its gameplay all by itself, welcome to video games, you must be new.

ON TOPIC:

This all depends what someone considers "elitist." Is it elitist to be a hardcore gamer, or are hardcore gamers and elitists separated from each other? I hope the latter, because I consider myself hardcore but by no means elitist. I don't play to be better than everyone else and I don't care about e-peen. And at any rate, I consider an elitist to be a jerk who thinks playing a game to death makes him cool and who imposes his style of play on everyone he deems beneath him (AKA everyone but other elitists).

But I'm by no means casual. I've been PC gaming since I was 10 and I'll gladly dump 8 hours straight into Diablo 3 the first day I get my hands on it.

Some of what the OP describes isn't elitism; it's aspects of the game that prolong the game's life span greatly.

Diablo 2 may have taken this philosophy too far, but think of it this way: How many people would give a rat's *** about Diablo 2 today, or even 5 years ago, if drops were so common you could get everything you ever wanted in a week? What would happen if you could go from 1 to 99 in a month of casual play?

We wouldn't be here right now, because we would have stopped caring about Diablo a long time ago.

Also, this discussion reeks of "it must be one or the other" syndrome. Who's to say we can't let casuals play for a few hours and feel they've made small accomplishments while maintaining the huge accomplishments for players who wish to spend vastly more time on things?

Nobody who's sane agrees Diablo 3 should have Hel-type rarity for anything, but there are many more subtle levels between being casual and being a full-blown elitist. And I see no reason Diablo 3 can't cater to all of them.

Nimbostratus

06-07-2009, 03:46

Diablo 2 may have taken this philosophy too far, but think of it this way: How many people would give a rat's *** about Diablo 2 today, or even 5 years ago, if drops were so common you could get everything you ever wanted in a week? What would happen if you could go from 1 to 99 in a month of casual play?
This is by no means whatsoever what I'm asking for; I really wish people wouldn't immediately assume this. I'm perfectly fine with the top-tier items and highest levels being hard to get. I have no problem with one player being more powerful than another. The things that bug me about items in D2 (which I'd want changed in D3) are:

1. Simply having practical gear requires some amount of grinding. Practical does not mean "godly." Do not confuse the two. Practical means your attacks actually do something and that you aren't perpetually on the brink of death. In other words, you're strong enough for the game to continue to be fun. For many players, requiring them to grind to get half-decent gear is akin to saying "to have fun, you need to stop having fun first." Note that I've said nothing about making the best items easier to get. Just that I want decent things readily available- grinding should not be a requirement to just play the game.

2. Top-tier items are way too strong. The best items should be noticeably better than the norm, but they should not completely dominate it. In a multiplayer game, everyone needs to be roughly equal for it to stay fun. In PVM, you need to make sure nobody in a group gets too far ahead, falls behind, or feels useless. In PVP, success should depend more on the player rather than their patience for item grinding. Also realize that nearly any improvement in your gear improves everything- if you get more defensive stats from your gear, you can play more offensively; if you get more offensive power, you don't have to worry about defense as much because things die sooner.

In short, let both casual and hardcore players have their fun. Being a hardcore gamer should give you advantages, but not so much that being hardcore is some sort of requirement.

I agree with the "stop making WoW comparisons" statement, btw. It's getting to be like Diablo's own version of Godwin's Law.

Octale

06-07-2009, 15:04

In other words, you're strong enough for the game to continue to be fun. For many players, requiring them to grind to get half-decent gear is akin to saying "to have fun, you need to stop having fun first." Note that I've said nothing about making the best items easier to get. Just that I want decent things readily available- grinding should not be a requirement to just play the game.

I must be misunderstanding, but it sounds to me like you want a deviation from a Diabo gameplay standard that has existed since D1. I guess I don't see what's wrong with making some number of Diablo/Baal runs at the tail end of Normal to get some items and exps before heading into Nightmare mode, so long as the run itself is fast (~30 mins). To always be strong enough to progress content makes the game trivial, unless you eventually run into a boss that roflstomps you through the floor, which would put you back into the mode of grinding for gear.

In short, let both casual and hardcore players have their fun.
I don't see how you didn't have this under the D2 system. No casual player is ever going to be competitive at Ladder, and Diablo's not really a PvP game.

Usufruct

06-07-2009, 19:05

Grinding for gear is part of the Diablo series. You could beat the game with a burrito cannon, but those 843 pindle runs you did until you saw a golden Hydra Bow drop are what makes it a prized posession. I'm cool with good gear being accessible, at least end-game, but great gear needs to require either a time or a group coordination commitment. And you could still fail in great gear in DII, if you were a baddie :)

Knight_Wolf

06-07-2009, 20:19

A minotiry? Well lets stop this here. Random numbers like that are always good for those kind of thread. Anyways, my point was all about this "Elitist" term used to defined people (LIKE ME) who are not hardcore gamer at all but still love the game that way. Again your wall of text to try to explain me that you find it frustrating that way (like others) will not change my mind.

Hardcore gamers (or rather elitists to be more specific) are a minority by default ... the game was bought by more than 8 million people ... how many of the ever obtained zod or did 60 boss runs per week .. etc etc ... hardcore players are definitely a minority without the need for any actual numbers .. and elitist who are a group within hardcore players are even less .. yet they want to impose their play style on everybody else.

And to be more specific .. let's say all elitists are hardcore players .. but not all hardcore players are elitists.

Maybe the rest of the post was very interresting but I stopped to read here. Sorry but my primary language is "not" english as you certainly noticed and it is already hard enough to keep talking about the OP message without going in all possible direction to have to deal with this thing. I'm doing my best to write in the best english.

English isn't my primary language either.

Good luck dude with all those elitist people. Looks like I'm one of them with my level 65 barbarian and I still hope that Blizzard will not allow Respec and will keep those very high items (I especialy really love that in Diablo 2); which is the main subject of this thread, remember?. Nothing personal here but was just trying to show you that there is no link between elitist people and the fact that lot of us do not want those changes because we do not find them as FLAWS but instead we enjoy the actual implementation.

Nothing perosnal indeed, but the point remains .. if you enjoy a broken game mechanic and want to impose it on everyone else eventhough it has a severe negative impact on their gameplay and they don't like it .. then you aren't a hardcore player .. you are an elitist (in general anyone who wants that is one) .. it doesn't get more simple and clear.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

it's aspects of the game that prolong the game's life span greatly.

There are better ways to expand a game life span ... choosing the most lazy (lazy by the developers) to artificially extend the game's life span isn't any thing good or spectacular.

Adding achievement and extra modes (survivial dungeon, PvP arenas .. etc etc) is a much better way to expand the game life and make the end game more fun ... not to mention can be an alternative way to gain good and great quality gear .. rather than requiring the player to turn himself into a mindless bot that plays the game over and over until he gets the good gear.

Diablo 2 may have taken this philosophy too far, but think of it this way: How many people would give a rat's *** about Diablo 2 today, or even 5 years ago, if drops were so common you could get everything you ever wanted in a week? What would happen if you could go from 1 to 99 in a month of casual play?

Nobody said anything about obtaining everything in a week .. that's pure exaggeration .. some items in D2 were nigh obtainable even if you spend years and years playing the game .. that is horrible game design.

What people want is alternatives to mindless grinding in order to obtain good gear , reasonable drop rates not insane unrealistic ones, making the end game items less overpowered so it has less impact on PvP ... so hearing comment's about casual players wanting to find everything in one week is really annoying and misguiding the topic from the real problems.

--------------------------------------------------------

Grinding for gear is part of the Diablo series.

Agreed .. but they can at least try to make it less mindless/exploitable/boring and more interesting/well designed/varied.

Or otherwise offer alternatives to obtain good practical items besides grinding mindlessly for hours till your brain is numb .. it essential considering how this impacts everyone's PvP experience ... so forcing everyone to grind (even those who hate to grind for extremely long periods) in order to have viable gear in PvP is unfair and stupid .. alternatives are needed and are possible.

And you could still fail in great gear in DII, if you were a baddie

I don't think so .. that's the problem actually with the way Diablo behaves in endgame .. the game becomes a breeze ... even a 5 years old can beat anything or any challenge if you give him a character with godly gear .. it requires zero skill to use at that point .. which is a drastic and sever drawback in the end game design that they will hopefully fix somehow.

---------------------------------------------------

On a side note ... look at the other competitive games out there ... all have things that cater for hardcore players (special challenges, titles, secrets, rankings, ... etc etc) but unlike D2 none of those features have a drastic impact on the playing experience of the other players (like gear obtained from long mindless grinding sessions by elitists crushing the competitiveness of PvP completely because that gear is overpowered compared to the average gear out there not just a more powerful ... it's way overpowered)... which is the real problem with D2 design.

jhtvman

06-07-2009, 21:01

I tend to agree with the OP's sentiments. The primary issue here for me is that Diablo 2 and 3 are still just video games. Put into context with the rest of everyday life, they're pretty unimportant and the vast majority of people will have neither the time nor the desire to put in the ridiculous hours required to overcome the ridiculously low drop rates of the high-end items in D2.

I understand the need for some sort of balance. Make everything in the game super easy to get ahold of and the looting aspect of Diablo (which is the main point of the series) becomes pretty short-lived because you won't need to do it for very long. On the other hand, making the drop rates for the rarest items one in millions means that most people will never get them because they have to spend their time doing things that are actually important. That sort of game environment is frustrating for people to whom gaming is just a fun hobby to do in their spare time.

Cantilever

06-07-2009, 21:16

Actually I think the difficulty of attainting certain items was one of the main reasons Diablo II has such replayability...

phool

06-07-2009, 21:44

imaginedvl

06-07-2009, 21:52

Hardcore gamers (or rather elitists to be more specific) are a minority by default ... the game was bought by more than 8 million people ... how many of the ever obtained zod or did 60 boss runs per week .. etc etc ... hardcore players are definitely a minority without the need for any actual numbers .. and elitist who are a group within hardcore players are even less .. yet they want to impose their play style on everybody else.

You can continue to repeat this post after post... YOU assume that only Hardcore players wants this to stay that way; I'm not a hardcore player and I want it; I must not be the only one. I can do the same and I think that a minority of the Diablo 2 players wants this to be changed. See, easy to throw out assumptions. And I can tell you that you are an elitist too. YOU want to impose those changes because YOU think that the game is broken. And explaining why it is broken for you does not prove that it is broken for a majority. I would say that almost everything you are writing is not a flaw to me. It is simply the way I like this game and I think that I'm far to be the only one; exactly like you when you think the majority wants the game to be changed your ways.

Nothing perosnal indeed, but the point remains .. if you enjoy a broken game mechanic and want to impose it on everyone else eventhough it has a severe negative impact on their gameplay and they don't like it .. then you aren't a hardcore player .. you are an elitist (in general anyone who wants that is one) .. it doesn't get more simple and clear.

WOW. You keep bashing the thread with that. You seems to really think that IF something is broken for you, it is broken for the majority; and even if you take 20 lines to explain why it is broken for you; it won't make it broken for the rest. This is not true at all and the reverse can be easily demonstrated the same way. Check this thread... Check the D3 forums... I would say that half of the people thinks that the game is fine that way (maybe few things can be imroved for sure). I agree that this is not even close to reflect the reality but you will really need to tell me how you can come with all those assumptions.

You keep repeating the same over and over. This won't make people that you are right and we are all wrong. We do not like the changes you propose in the same way you don't like the the game the way it is right now. And no, we are not a minority. You definition of an Elitist is a real joke because it means that a LOT of people wants the game to be the way you want or think the game is broken the way it is... Apart of you repeating that, I do not see anything proving me that. I know few does not like it that way but that's all.

You can explain what you really think is wrong with this game or what is broken for you. But for god sake, stop thinking that the majority thinks like you and then insulting the others of elitist.

Also you must realize more than one changes are proposed. And I'm pretty sure that few of them are accepted by the majority. Only few points are not welcomed on one side or the other. Like not having very rare items or free respec or even auction house (or any other way to trade/sell items)...

I know this thread becomes more a fight but I'm really tired of people thinking that their own vision or oppinion is the absolute truth "for the majority".

imaginedvl

06-07-2009, 22:01

The obvious solution is the best one; narrowing the power gap between one-in-a-milllion items and dime-a-dozen items. The min-maxers don't even care particularly, the d2 elite will pay outrageous sums for uber rare items that can compete with, but not significantly surpass, an equivalent unique while a d2c rare's colour has a huge effect on the value, and it lowers entry levels to endgame and pvp for everyone with less time to spare.

It goes without saying the very top tier items remain as difficult to obtain and retain equal symbolic value, much as Tyrael's currently does, however difference in effectiveness from player skill comes to have an impact that makes the impact from the difference between top and high tier equipment setups pale somewhat. And being able to see your skills improve at a game in a noticeable way makes for an overall far more rewarding game experience than the rush of finding a highly prized drop.

This is a very good solution. Being one of the people who like the actual drop rate. I can tell that the reason is not to get the ubber-item-of-doom who kill everything 10 times faster. But really to be very pleased when I got something truly rare or unique. For instance if something drops with "+10 agility" but it exists an extremly rare version of this item with let say a "+11 agility", I would be pretty happy about it just because of the rarity. May not be the case for everyone hehe

Usufruct

06-07-2009, 22:20

Agreed .. but they can at least try to make it less mindless/exploitable/boring and more interesting/well designed/varied.

Or otherwise offer alternatives to obtain good practical items besides grinding mindlessly for hours till your brain is numb .. it essential considering how this impacts everyone's PvP experience ... so forcing everyone to grind (even those who hate to grind for extremely long periods) in order to have viable gear in PvP is unfair and stupid .. alternatives are needed and are possible.

Oh I agree, to be sure. I don't think grinding should be the only way to gain good items. I just think there should be some really good items that you cannot get any other way - the tireless Diablo-esque status symbol items, like the IK set was back in the day (when it didn't suck).

I might be the only one (maybe not), but I actually loved smashing through some random high alvl cave and only occasionally seeing that lovely golden text. That moment of glee made it worth the mind numbing hours of piles of gold and junky socketables.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't want Diablo III loot to be totally like World of Warcraft. You can run Naxxramas 25 and your eyes won't even fall out before you get a full set of leet gear.

I don't think so .. that's the problem actually with the way Diablo behaves in endgame .. the game becomes a breeze ... even a 5 years old can beat anything or any challenge if you give him a character with godly gear .. it requires zero skill to use at that point .. which is a drastic and sever drawback in the end game design that they will hopefully fix somehow.I was more referring to gear in PvP, so I agree that endgame Diablo II PvE was faceroll to the max. My experience in PvP however, was that gear didn't matter as much as skill and patience. The other thing though, PvP changed so drastically throughout the years of DII that it's hard to pinpoint just one time period and say "that was how it should have been".

On a side note ... look at the other competitive games out there ... all have things that cater for hardcore players (special challenges, titles, secrets, rankings, ... etc etc) but unlike D2 none of those features have a drastic impact on the playing experience of the other players (like gear obtained from long mindless grinding sessions by elitists crushing the competitiveness of PvP completely because that gear is overpowered compared to the average gear out there not just a more powerful ... it's way overpowered)... which is the real problem with D2 design.Not to make the dreaded comparison again, but what if in D3 there were different stats on equipment that made them good for PvP but not PvE, and vice versa, and had different methods of obtaining each? Just a thought.

Starving_Poet

06-07-2009, 22:21

This is a very good solution. Being one of the people who like the actual drop rate. I can tell that the reason is not to get the ubber-item-of-doom who kill everything 10 times faster. But really to be very pleased when I got something truly rare or unique. For instance if something drops with "+10 agility" but it exists an extremly rare version of this item with let say a "+11 agility", I would be pretty happy about it just because of the rarity. May not be the case for everyone hehe

Yeah, but we're the few who think that getting an ethereal grail is a noble cause. You will never use 99.9% of the items, but it's about hunt. :)

AniMe

07-07-2009, 07:51

Knight_Wolf;

"elitists have an unfair edge over normal players, one that has nothing to do with competition or actual player skills like most other multi-player games"

How? People who play sports professionally never becomes the "best in the world" by playing casually. They invest TIME, and TIME, and TIME!

Same here. If you want a game that almost SOLELY requires technical skill, go play Quake or some FPS.

D2's big bad flaws et cetera... YEAH, this poor outcast of a game only has an ASTOUNDING player base, active after 9 years etc etc...

5zigen

07-07-2009, 08:11

AniMe

07-07-2009, 10:08

"Difficulty" needs to be separated into two columns:

Grind and Skill.

People who want items as rare as zod (chances of dropping are roughly 1 in 19million from the best chance to drop enemies.)

Some people want to keep the items to those who are at the top of the pyramid meaning that they want to distribute items to those who put in the most time, not necessarily those who are good. This is the worst form of elitism imo

People who want it to be challenging but not grindy want the right game.

Difficulty should come from challenging content, not necessarily flat time investment. That doesn't turn the game into quake 4. And either way, I would rather play quake 4 than a slot machine... Which is what all these so called "elitists" want the game to be.

Dang, casual players are stone walls. They write the same stuff over and over and over and over again... ;/

Do you think you will be able to compete on the Northrend Warcraft III seasonal ladder by playing 5 hours a weekend? No, you won't, ever. Casual players won't have access to that, ever.

"boohoo, I can't outskill someone who plays more than me, please re-structure the game!"

Grind, skill, no matter what word you use; THOSE WHO PUT IN MORE TIME, GETS BETTER/RICHER.

You don't like being mediocre, devote more time.

There are those very few who plays 1 hour every month. Let's make it so easy that you can reach level 99 in that time. I mean, stop being elitist :P

Nextt

07-07-2009, 12:44

You people need to stop relating auction houses and gold currency (and EVERYTHING) to WoW. Just... stop it.

If you think WoW invented a single aspect of its gameplay all by itself, welcome to video games, you must be new.

First its people like you I laugh at, the only reason to relate things to WoW is because quite simply its the MMO that "everyone" even people who don't play games knows about. So its just the most easy to relate to.

I could say something like "Oh yeah I hated the fact that the currency in Knight Online was Noahs (gold like money dropped from mobs etc etc)" but how many people can that relate to? 10% of them? maybe 5%? exactly. (Btw that statement isn't true as that currency worked just fine in that game)

Hardcore gamers (or rather elitists to be more specific) are a minority by default ... the game was bought by more than 8 million people ... how many of the ever obtained zod or did 60 boss runs per week .. etc etc ... hardcore players are definitely a minority without the need for any actual numbers .. and elitist who are a group within hardcore players are even less .. yet they want to impose their play style on everybody else.

Nothing perosnal indeed, but the point remains .. if you enjoy a broken game mechanic and want to impose it on everyone else eventhough it has a severe negative impact on their gameplay and they don't like it .. then you aren't a hardcore player .. you are an elitist (in general anyone who wants that is one) .. it doesn't get more simple and clear.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Adding achievement and extra modes (survivial dungeon, PvP arenas .. etc etc) is a much better way to expand the game life and make the end game more fun ... not to mention can be an alternative way to gain good and great quality gear .. rather than requiring the player to turn himself into a mindless bot that plays the game over and over until he gets the good gear.

Nobody said anything about obtaining everything in a week .. that's pure exaggeration .. some items in D2 were nigh obtainable even if you spend years and years playing the game .. that is horrible game design.

Or otherwise offer alternatives to obtain good practical items besides grinding mindlessly for hours till your brain is numb .. it essential considering how this impacts everyone's PvP experience ... so forcing everyone to grind (even those who hate to grind for extremely long periods) in order to have viable gear in PvP is unfair and stupid .. alternatives are needed and are possible.

On a side note ... look at the other competitive games out there ... all have things that cater for hardcore players (special challenges, titles, secrets, rankings, ... etc etc) but unlike D2 none of those features have a drastic impact on the playing experience of the other players (like gear obtained from long mindless grinding sessions by elitists crushing the competitiveness of PvP completely because that gear is overpowered compared to the average gear out there not just a more powerful ... it's way overpowered)... which is the real problem with D2 design.

Starting from first paragraph to last
before reading view this as a post from a so called elitist cause thats what im defined by you i guess.

1. Ummm no, so I played Diablo for 6 or 7 years guess what, I never found a zod, i consider myself to be a hardcore player as I played for hours on ends all week. 60 Boss runs? i mean srsly? a week? I guarantee 85% of people who finished hell did at least that. (Baal runs?, perhaps even 10 meph runs a day for an item chance? yeah...)
And these "Elitist" your calling by saying impose there ideals on others, your wrong thats not what some of us are doing, what we are doing is wanting much of "DIABLO 3" to keep many of the core aspects that made the game "DIABLO" Hence why it is Diablo 3 and not "Maplestory 2"

2. Wrong, its simply certain aspects of Diablo that many of the hardcore players found as fun aspects of "Diablo". If you didn't like 90% of what Diablo 2 was about I sugjust you go find a different game instead of complaining and hope they turn Diablo 3 into a game that should simply be called something else.

3. Pvp-Arena's are boring and stupid, and when you said adding achievement I hope you don't mean like an achievement system like that of WoW (And other games just relating to one people know of) because I'm a hardcore player, I currently play WoW still and am in one of the guilds that were the first to clear ulduar, and I can tell you that"other than dungeon achievements so we can expand our e-peen" I could care less about all those other ones. Like exploring the entire world? thats ridiculously stupid, that isn't what makes a "Hardcore" Or "Elitist player" but in fact its usually the casual players that go for those.

This isn't from what you said in that post but you had said a thing of saying hardcore players / elitist dont = Skillful but simply have an unfair advantage. They are skillful usually thats how they got where they are, for instance the first 100 lvl 80's in my server are all in the top guilds in the server also. And the unfair advantage is true, but guess what, that will never change, as long as they are playing x2 longer than you they have a x2 advantage over you.

4. Other than runes, 40/15 jewels (but things like 36/15, 32/15 were all easily obtainable) the scs that are what 20/20/3? but guess what theres lower versions. The hardcore players like myself we want that 40/15 jewel, the casuals however can use the 32/15's and sure be at a disadvantage but not a big one. So this agrees with what you want about not huge differences in gear between players so skill shows and not just gear.(However blizzard slacked on D2 and let dupes happen, then yeah.)

5. Guess what, you know what the alternative is? Everything is NOT BOUND, OMG PROBLEM SOLVED. Now you don't even have to try to get those items you can just trade for them. Or not grind for hours but perhaps 10-30 minutes, maybe fine 1 item maybe not, if you do and its an item you don't need guess what, SELL IT AND BUY WHAT YOU NEED. :)

6. Hmm, you don't play many games and sure don't know anything about D2. Titles are retarded for 1, they don't appeal to the hardcore gamer, Special challenges are only fun if theres the possibility of getting that gear thats better even by 1 point then the best gear. I like rankings :), this was my biggest set back in D2 as I wanted more than simply a ladder rank that means nothing but the fact I have more time to play to level than other people. I wanted a system where you got points for killing people, lost them for dieing to people etc. Because those are the only rankings that matter.

Other games are item depend I will give MULTIPLE examples some from WoW some from other games. (1st) In WoW who wins this battle lvl 80 with full newest season PvP gear, or the gear from 2 seasons ago? I can tell you the 2 seasons ago stands no chance even with skill. However since 1v1 in WoW is not balanced this is refering to same class vs same class. Or can someone with all the best PvE gear beat someone with all the best PvP gear? NO.
Now lets look at D2, Player 1 is a hammerdin with all the best gear, even an enigma so he can teleport. Player 2 is a hammerdin with not the best gear and no enigma.

You think the battle is decided? NO, the non-enigma pally can win still. use charge put up hammers, that guy with enigma is going to chase you, run away charge away hammer, if you find an opening charge in and hammer. Just because Player 1 has his hammers at lvl 40 while player 2 has his hammers at lvl 32 means NOTHING. You are just not a skillful player so you just go and complain about the ones who are.
Since this post is getting retardedly long and most people won't read it ill only post another reference if its asked for, but i have hundreds.

And last, what you seem to not see is that we hardcore players or "elitist" don't care about having some huge advantage on other players.
I would be fine with a game where lets say the 3rd best item in the game for a Barb is a 2h axe that deals 1000-1000 dmg(random numbers generated throughout) and lets say that that 3rd best wep can be obtained easily by even the casual player. Then 2nd best item is 1002-1004 dmg. But is a little bit harder but as time pass's the casual can get his hands on it to.

Then the BEST item is 1005-1010 dmg and is WAY harder to get. Guess what I want that item because I want the best item because im "hardcore / elitist" The difference in stats is so minimal it will make no difference other than skill to play out, HOWEVER if the elitist looks at for instance a damage meter and see's he is doing more than the others, not only is that proving he is more skillful because he was able to obtain this item, but he is rewarded with having the best item.

Dang, casual players are stone walls. They write the same stuff over and over and over and over again... ;/

Do you think you will be able to compete on the Northrend Warcraft III seasonal ladder by playing 5 hours a weekend? No, you won't, ever. Casual players won't have access to that, ever.

"boohoo, I can't outskill someone who plays more than me, please re-structure the game!

Grind, skill, no matter what word you use; THOSE WHO PUT IN MORE TIME, GETS BETTER/RICHER.

There are those very few who plays 1 hour every month. Let's make it so easy that you can reach level 99 in that time. I mean, stop being elitist :P

EXACTLY, You OP who are not even CLOSE to sticking to the NATURE and very CORE of the DIABLO game, are asking EVERYONE to change so that it can be how YOU want it to be. Like srsly. And not just the OP but Knight_Wolf as well, probably mainly actually Knight_Wolf I know he is a huge advocate for not having a "DIABLO 3" But a whole different game that no one will play because it won't be fun.

Usufruct

07-07-2009, 15:56

I want to be able to attain things that newbies or casual gamers can't. I don't think that's because I'm an elitist, I think that's because I'm a gamer and that's what we do.

Gorny

07-07-2009, 17:17

I want to be able to attain things that newbies or casual gamers can't. I don't think that's because I'm an elitist, I think that's because I'm a gamer and that's what we do.

Hmm attain things eh?

Half a million Diggler Dirks?

So what are you going to collect in D3 eh?

Lawlz.

Usufruct

07-07-2009, 18:14

Hmm attain things eh?

Half a million Diggler Dirks?

So what are you going to collect in D3 eh?

Lawlz.

It's Blizzard right? I'm counting on them to provide me with something absurd and ridiculous to collect.

I still have never seen another person with a double upgraded ethereal zod'd diggler :)

Edit: in hardcore

Gorny

07-07-2009, 18:23

Eh, DK claims to have you beat there with a triple Zodded eth pirate hat... and a double Chammed bottle of booze.

5zigen

07-07-2009, 18:43

Dang, casual players are stone walls. They write the same stuff over and over and over and over again... ;/

Do you think you will be able to compete on the Northrend Warcraft III seasonal ladder by playing 5 hours a weekend? No, you won't, ever. Casual players won't have access to that, ever.

"boohoo, I can't outskill someone who plays more than me, please re-structure the game!"

Grind, skill, no matter what word you use; THOSE WHO PUT IN MORE TIME, GETS BETTER/RICHER.

You don't like being mediocre, devote more time.

There are those very few who plays 1 hour every month. Let's make it so easy that you can reach level 99 in that time. I mean, stop being elitist :P

There you go, calling "us casuals" like it's some derogatory term. How ridiculous. Then you go on to say that playing 5 hours a week isn't enough.

But here is a news flash for you: THIS ISN'T WC3.

And here is the problem with your logic. It's circular. Your argument that basing game prowess / wealth solely on how much time is spent playing is good because to play a game professionally you would have to practice more than 5 hours a week anyway.

Not only are you assuming your conclusion, but you're also comparing it to something unrealistic (aka Nirvana fallacy) which is competing in a northrend tournament. There are plenty of good to excellent players who are not good enough to compete in a NR WC3 tournament. Essentially what you're saying is that if you don't practice, you won't be able to compete at the apogee of the games competitive experience. Do you need to say something so obvious?

Here is my question: Why are you afraid of a skill based system when it works fine in something like WC3? I mean, you are going to be putting more time into the game, so it is only logical that you will be better at the game, and thus have more virtual wealth because you will have more time to sink in and practice.

So why do you push so hard against it? The only reason I can think of is that you know you are bad, and want a way to accumulate some sort of online status in a game that requires little to no ability to play, just a ton of free time. I can think of NO OTHER REASON to push so hard against skill based play, if your argument that those who invest more time will be better at the game anyway.

You "hardcores" are all the same, because you all want to have an epeen measurement in units that don't really matter because they only equate to how much time you've burned playing the game and nothing else.

The reason a "skill based" game doesn't bother "casuals", regardless of the fact that they wont be able to compete at the apogee of the competitive experience is this: They can identify why they don't do as well, and it's something in their power to change, even if that change occurs over time. When the wealth/power etc is based SOLELY on how much time is spent in the game, then people who have restrictive schedules will KNOW that they won't ever be to the point of competition 'readiness'.

Essentially it's a dichotomoy of whether the prowess is based on something you CAN control (how good you are at the game) versus something you CAN'T necessarily control (how much time you can put into the game). The people who can control how much time they have to game (to the upper limit) obviously will prefer the second option, particularly if they are bad at games in general.

Another reason is because skill curves are rarely linear and are in general logarithmic. So, while it may take some amount of time to get extremely good at the game, people will be able to at least be somewhat competitive by investing the amount of time and getting to the point of increasingly diminishing returns even if they can not viably reach the upper limit.

But really I don't understand why people push so hard against skill based play. It really just makes them look like uncoordinated bads.

The idea to get things that other players cant is always there, but there is a difference between dividing it up solely by time invested and dividing it up in a way that requires players to be skilled at the game to get to the top of the power curve.

No one is saying that the game should be easy enough that it can be mastered in 15 minutes. That would make for a real boring game. But make it so that progressing in the game takes some amount of skill and you will have a much more robust and fun to play game.

I really never understand why people like to play skill-free grindfests.

Starving_Poet

07-07-2009, 18:47

Your argument that basing game prowess / wealth solely on how much time is spent playing is good because

That's how wealth is accumulated? Or would you rather it be completely random? Would you like a Zod to have the same chance to drop as a cracked sash?

I agree that Diablo 3's drop rates were a bit too extreme, but those can be toned down. But to just drop the whole concept of wealth / time is absolutely asinine.

Risingred

07-07-2009, 18:53

But to just drop the whole concept of wealth / time is absolutely asinine.

Exactly. 5zigen has a very valid point about the value of needing skill and not just gear to progress through the higher difficulty levels but to toss aside the item search is to truly damage the replayability of the game.

It isn't about epeen or being hardcore or casual. This is a core game mechanic. If you can get through hell from living off of the land for a game or two, that's it. That's the end of the game. That's where the buck stops and I just hope it doesn't stop short.

Finding better gear is part of not only character progression but also progression through content. Some people claim that this is an artificial barrier made only to prolong longevity of the game. To that I would respond: and? Is it fun? Yes. People like collecting items, hardcore or softcore. It's one of the main appeals of the game.

I think this topic has gone a little off track.

AniMe

07-07-2009, 19:01

5zigen: you're the one who claimed that "if you toss a die 1000 times your chance of getting a six will not increase" in my column, right? It's there to read (also I had my friend who's a math graduate read through to see if I made any errors, either in conveying my point or in my reasoning and he simply raised his eyebrows and wondered what you were smoking)

Now I didn't really feel like reading that wall-of-text because you made me lol at the first couple of lines;

I don't want D2 to be 100% skill because we have WC3, BW, Quake and all those technical games. There is a reason we play these hack'n'slashes, we want to build characters RPG style, differentiate ourselves, accumulate wealth and such and watch what impact it has on battle. It's a very appealing concept and apparently, I'm not the only one who like it. Of course skill should be an integral part but so should items...

In the end it still boils down to the same thing. A sleep-deprived korean playing Brood War 14 hours a day will smack anyone silly. In D2 it's the same thing except the smacking comes mostly from items, levels and whatnot and not solely on skill...

Bottom line: He who invests more time benefits over he who doesn't invest as much time.

Knight_Wolf

07-07-2009, 20:08

Dang, casual players are stone walls. They write the same stuff over and over and over and over again... ;/

lols, stone walls don't write .. if anything it's elitist that are stone walls .. no matter what you facts you tell them to they just stay the same .. like stone walls :crazyeyes:

Do you think you will be able to compete on the Northrend Warcraft III seasonal ladder by playing 5 hours a weekend? No, you won't, ever. Casual players won't have access to that, ever.

I wouldn't compare compare Diablo to WoW which happens to be an MMO and is infested with grinding like 99% of MMOs ...specially when people actually want less grinding and more meaningful challenges cause D3 ISN"T an MMO.

Besides .. what part of your brain did you use to get the notion that anybody wants to get everything by playing 5 hours a week ... reread my previous post and hopefully you will see that i explicitly said that many people want to replace mindless tedious grinding with meaningful challenges that are fun to tackle not stupid, mind numbing and requires zero skill like grinding .. and challenges BY DEFINITION take time to beat .. but quality time .. and only skilled players will be them faster than everybody else.

"boohoo, I can't outskill someone who plays more than me, please re-structure the game!"

Bull**** ... you never know if that person earned that gear or not .. it could be his younger brother using the character .. and just because the character has some godly gear that the older brother spent hundreds of mind numbing hours grinding and collecting (which you couldn't get cause you don't have all that time) ... simply put ... his younger brother will mob the floor with you

Did the younger brother spend any time playing the game like you ... NO ... did you mob the floor with you .. YES ... is that good .. HELL NO ... the game almost requires ZERO skill after you grind for few weeks.

on the other hand ... if the game required some skill .. no matter what the younger brother does you would still beat the crap out of his character cause he just doesn't have the skill ... almost all other competitive games out there still require skill and a skilled player to play no matter how much time was spent playing it.

Grind, skill, no matter what word you use; THOSE WHO PUT IN MORE TIME, GETS BETTER/RICHER

Yeah ... because it's a time slot machine .. maybe you should go to the lottery or a casino ... it seems people are starting to forget that games required skill to play not just pure flat time investment.

In games that require ACTUAL skill .. time is something and skill is something entirely different ... yes you do gain more experience about the game with time but that should just be a limited learning curve not the whole freaking gaming experience which is just stupid ... removing skill requirements is simply down right stupid.

You don't like being mediocre, devote more time.

Games that depend on flat time investment are simply time slot machines .. getting a mindless bot to play (or rather grind) the game for you would be advisable and better.

------------------------------------------------------------------

before reading view this as a post from a so called elitist cause thats what im defined by you i guess.

what we are doing is wanting much of "DIABLO 3" to keep many of the core aspects that made the game "DIABLO" Hence why it is Diablo 3 and not "Maplestory 2"

Sigh the same delusional statement ... just because you consider something a core aspect of Diablo (i.e potion spam) that doesn't make it a core aspect of Diablo .... clear.

Listen ... Here is a useful observation on how the D3 team is working .... every aspect of the game is evaluated and checked to see if it adds to the design philosophy of the team or detracts from it ... naturally most of the good aspects will pass ... the rest .. the rubbish broken traits will fail no matter how much people consider them "CORE" aspects .. simple.

2. Wrong, its simply certain aspects of Diablo that many of the hardcore players found as fun aspects of "Diablo". If you didn't like 90% of what Diablo 2 was about I sugjust you go find a different game instead of complaining and hope they turn Diablo 3 into a game that should simply be called something else.

They found it fun .. big deal .. if it ruins the game for others it has no place in the game even if "Kennedy" found it fun.

And throwing around random figures won't help your argument .. specially when you are opposing the D3 team philosophy and think the D2 was flawless ... well .. my advice ... go play D2 and stay there.

3. Pvp-Arena's are boring and stupid, and when you said adding achievement I hope you don't mean like an achievement system like that of WoW (And other games just relating to one people know of) because I'm a hardcore player, I currently play WoW still and am in one of the guilds that were the first to clear ulduar, and I can tell you that"other than dungeon achievements so we can expand our e-peen" I could care less about all those other ones. Like exploring the entire world? thats ridiculously stupid, that isn't what makes a "Hardcore" Or "Elitist player" but in fact its usually the casual players that go for those.

Like it or not achievements WILL be in the game because many people like them and they harm no one (unlike many of the other broken aspects the close minded elitists want from D2)

As for PvP arenas ... i don't know where did you get that weird notion that they are boring or stupid ... i suggest you stop playing D2 and tetris and go play some good PvP game of the hundreds out there maybe you will get an idea about what competitive PvP in arenas is like.

This isn't from what you said in that post but you had said a thing of saying hardcore players / elitist dont = Skillful but simply have an unfair advantage. They are skillful usually thats how they got where they are, for instance the first 100 lvl 80's in my server are all in the top guilds in the server also. And the unfair advantage is true, but guess what, that will never change, as long as they are playing x2 longer than you they have a x2 advantage over you.

It seems you missed the meaning of skill .... in most PvP or competitive games even if a player is playing X2 times more that you can still stand a chance to beat him if you use your reflexes/strategies/creativity and surprise him.

In D2 there is no such thing .. he got godly gear cause he spent 454252 hours playing ... you got normal gear cause you only spent 600 hours playing .. he wins ... that sound more like boring math to me ... and requires ZERO skill .. just flat time investment .. that's what gets elitists all the godly gear they use to impose their cockiness on other players.

4. So this agrees with what you want about not huge differences in gear between players so skill shows and not just gear.

Ok .. we finally agree on something. :scratchchin:

5. Guess what, you know what the alternative is? Everything is NOT BOUND, OMG PROBLEM SOLVED. Now you don't even have to try to get those items you can just trade for them. Or not grind for hours but perhaps 10-30 minutes, maybe fine 1 item maybe not, if you do and its an item you don't need guess what, SELL IT AND BUY WHAT YOU NEED. :)

Trade for them .. yeah .. but getting that much gold (they will be damn expensive if they had low drop rates) also requires hours on mindless grinding .. no difference .... unless there are various ways to obtain gold.

And you do need them if you want to enjoy the full game experience .. or at least 80% of it.

6. Hmm, you don't play many games and sure don't know anything about D2. Titles are retarded for 1

Whatever you think is your problem ... and clearly i wasn't talking about D2 titels cause they are meaningless ... i was talking about other games.

this was my biggest set back in D2 as I wanted more than simply a ladder rank that means nothing but the fact I have more time to play to level than other people. I wanted a system where you got points for killing people, lost them for dieing to people etc. Because those are the only rankings that matter.

Good you feel that flat time investment differentiating ladder players is a bad thing.

and lets say that that 3rd best wep can be obtained easily by even the casual player.

God, when will you get it .. when i repeat it for the 100th time ... i'm asking for alternative challenging ways for obtaining items other than gridning .. there is no EASY to be found here ... measuring everything by pure time investment is again and again down right stupid.

EXACTLY, You OP who are not even CLOSE to sticking to the NATURE and very CORE of the DIABLO game, are asking EVERYONE to change so that it can be how YOU want it to be. Like srsly. And not just the OP but Knight_Wolf as well, probably mainly actually Knight_Wolf I know he is a huge advocate for not having a "DIABLO 3" But a whole different game that no one will play because it won't be fun.

"No one will play cause it won't be fun" .. lols ... i really laughed hard when i read that line ... jumping to hollow conclusions much ... i suggest you buckle up and be ready cause you are going to shocked at how many people will buy D3 after the developers are done removing all the archaic outdated systems and mechanics from it.

AS for the delisunal core part .. refer to my first reply

Just because you consider something a core aspect of Diablo (i.e potion spam) that doesn't make it a core aspect of Diablo .... clear.

Listen ... Here is a useful observation on how the D3 team is working .... every aspect of the game is evaluated and checked to see if it adds to the design philosophy of the team or detracts from it ... naturally most of the good aspects will pass ... the rest .. the rubbish broken traits will fail no matter how much people consider them "CORE" aspects and no matter how long they have been part of the game .. simple.

imaginedvl

07-07-2009, 20:22

"No one will play cause it won't be fun" .. lols ... i really laughed hard when i read that line ... jumping to hollow conclusions much ... i suggest you buckle up and be ready cause you are going to shocked at how many people will buy D3 after the developers are done removing or the archaic outdated systems and mechanics from it.

Well we are laughting hard while reading the same from you. "the game is broken, it uses outdated systems and mechanics and blah blah". You would be shocked to know how many people does not find the game broken too. That's funny how you assume the game will be fun for everyone with those change but not the reverse...

Diablo 3 won't be fun at all for a LOT of player (lets use your kind of "argumentation" and throw random numbers and fact): The "majority" of player who are actualy waiting for Diablo 3 loved Diablo 2 and did not find it "borken" at all. Of course Diablo 3 can be a better game by enhancing or even removing few aspects of Diablo 2; but certainly not doing all things Elitist Cusuals wants. (I think the term is apprioriate because we are talking about a "minority" who wants to impose THEIR play style here).

AniMe

07-07-2009, 20:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by AniMe
Do you think you will be able to compete on the Northrend Warcraft III seasonal ladder by playing 5 hours a weekend? No, you won't, ever. Casual players won't have access to that, ever.

I wouldn't compare compare Diablo to WoW which happens to be an MMO and is infested with grinding like 99% of MMOs ...specially when people actually want less grinding and more meaningful challenges cause D3 ISN"T an MMO.

Stopped reading there. Do you even think before you write? Do you read what other people write? Do you read what YOU write? o_o

[cK]Extreme

07-07-2009, 20:31

Nimbostratus

07-07-2009, 23:01

I am not at all suggesting D3 should be a super easy game. I am not suggesting that item finding be completely removed. Get those ideas out of your head.

1. Simply because you enjoy endless Meph runs does not mean everyone else does. Did you ever notice that there are such things as bots? Ever notice that people dupe items and willingly accept dupes in trades? And hey, there are even people that beg for free gear, and those who buy theirs from ebay. Most people here even twink their characters at low and mid levels. Can you really count ridiculous drop rates as a "core gameplay mechanic" when so many players specifically try to avoid dealing with it? It's broken. Realize it.

2. Item finding is not the only thing giving the game longevity. I've played D2 for years, and guess what? I hate grinding. Instead, I make different character builds. I try out more varied characters, new ways of playing with existing ones.

3. Item quality is not a source of real difficulty. I don't really like saying it, but most of the difficulty in Diablo 2 is fake difficulty in the form of "Do my numbers beat their numbers?" Think about two melee units fighting. Is there any real skill involved, or does the player just hold down his attack button and hope the enemy dies first? Look up some Diablo 2 videos on Youtube. Other than finding ones way to a boss quickly, can you see the skill of the player? Or do you only see their character's stats beating the enemies' stats? What's wrong with putting more emphasis on skill rather than time spent in slot-machine item runs? In Diablo 2, having high-end gear is essentially the same as having cheat codes.

Nextt

07-07-2009, 23:05

As for PvP arenas ... i don't know where did you get that weird notion that they are boring or stupid ... i suggest you stop playing D2 and tetris and go play some good PvP game of the hundreds out there maybe you will get an idea about what competitive PvP in arenas is like.

God, when will you get it .. when i repeat it for the 100th time ... i'm asking for alternative challenging ways for obtaining items other than gridning .. there is no EASY to be found here ... measuring everything by pure time investment is again and again down right stupid.

"No one will play cause it won't be fun" .. lols ... i really laughed hard when i read that line ... jumping to hollow conclusions much ... i suggest you buckle up and be ready cause you are going to shocked at how many people will buy D3 after the developers are done removing all the archaic outdated systems and mechanics from it.

AS for the delisunal core part .. refer to my first reply

1. I Disapprove / Find arena's boring because they are 60% class dependent 30% gear dependent and 10% skill dependent. In 90% of games Class 1 and Class 2 cannot beat class 3 and class 4 even if both sides have the same best gear. My favorite kind of PvP system is World type pvp, open battle, completely random. I am now playing Aion which has the PvPvE system that I love. Other than a couple exemptions class 1 always has a chance to beat class 2.
It's unfortunate i don't think it will be quite as an open PvP in D3 due to max player being 6ish. But that still means 4v2 in a game could happen, and if the game is made like d2 those 2 people can win.

2. Alternative challenging ways that don't involve grinding hmmm. That is contradicting because if something is properly challenging you will have to grind out to kill it. If you can lets say face a boss for the 1st time, if you kill him after 2 attempts, how is that challenging? It isn't. The challenging part is the PvP by playing against other players in that situation and then the game is so easy that it will be boring.
Example you have of something challenging that isn't considered easy / grind?

3. I guess I should of said to easy, with to the hardcore player to easy / easy = not fun.
Examples would be linage 2 was to hard for the casual obviously, but to those we kept playing played due to the fact they always had something to beat.
Now lets look at Diablo 2, the PvE aspect was WAY to easy, but thats mainly due to dupes, runewords wouldn't of been so common and we would of seen more shaftstops and cruel collosus blades still if dupes didn't happen, so things like clone diablo or uber trist would of been much harder in those situations. Then the PvP aspect before 1.10 at least was challenging for all classes. (white rings and stuff made it impossible challenging for sorc ^_^. But again that wasn't due to game mechanics.

Now lets look at Knight Online, there was a place called colony zone, you could go in there by yourself and kill people and get points, but perhaps also die easier. In the middle of the zone there was 5 bosses who were on random spawn timers each of 2-6 hours. 1 of those bosses could not be solo'ed by 95% of people, but the other 4 could be solo'ed by medium skilled players.
HOWEVER! the challenging part was, you were trying to kill the boss with the chance of the enemy side killing you.
So maybe this is an example of challenging but not grindy that your referring to? And if you could maybe consider this that, it only can really happen in a PvPvE environment(Aion also has this kind of setup, except the boss' can't be solo'ed at all)

But if someone has better examples of how something can be challenging while not being easy or grindy please share. I don't see though how you can kill a boss in 4 attempts and consider it a challenge. Challenge = Time = Learning how to do it = Skill.

Risingred

07-07-2009, 23:06

1. Simply because you enjoy endless Meph runs does not mean everyone else does.

What's the difference between running a meph run or just running an entire durance of hate run? Either way, you'll be running runs. Run. I like that word.
Were the drop rates broken? Most definitely. Anybody who plays SP can tell you that.
Items are more than a means to defeat Baal in hell, though. They add more to a game than stats.

3. Item quality is not a source of real difficulty. I don't really like saying it, but most of the difficulty in Diablo 2 is fake difficulty in the form of "Do my numbers beat their numbers?"

True, but...

What's wrong with putting more emphasis on skill rather than time spent in slot-machine item runs? In Diablo 2, having high-end gear is essentially the same as having cheat codes.

It's called an "artificial barrier". I don't see why endgame can't require both because, again, if you can clear Hell Diff. with just skills then endgame is pretty damn poor and short. Unless you think they're going to come up with something pretty awesome other than just replaying content on harder difficulty levels, which I doubt. You're getting three games for the coding/art price of one.

Nextt

07-07-2009, 23:21

1. Ever notice that people dupe items and willingly accept dupes in trades?

2. Item finding is not the only thing giving the game longevity. I've played D2 for years, and guess what? I hate grinding. Instead, I make different character builds. I try out more varied characters, new ways of playing with existing ones.

1. I forgot there was an icon on the item that said "This Item has been duped".

2. I find this condescending because by making different character builds = making new characters and leveling them. That in itself = grinding. I also leveled several characters other than my 1 99 i had a couple 85's. That was only because of the ability to cheat the rushing system. Had that not been an available thing I wouldn't of played for so long because it would of been very boring to me. I hate leveling, I only level because its a necessity up to a certain level.

So instead of using my time to make 8 characters up to lvl 70 or 80 etc, I spend that time I would of spent leveling those characters on getting gear, items, doing trades, Etc.

In ANY game that someone decides to simply level a bunch of characters instead of focus on 1 until he is at a high end part of his gear. You are obviously not going to be one of the people who stand a chance against the person who spent much more time on his toon than you.

So I'm going to use a WoW example since most people can relate to it. I can give another game if needed.

"in the beginning" The person who decided to have 4 level 60's or 4 level 70's or 4 lvl 80's, guess what, they were not the good players. They had mediocre gear because they didn't focus on 1 character. And more than gear they didn't have the SKILL to play the class because they didn't spend TIME playing that class, they spent there TIME leveling up 4 other characters to a mediocre level.

Now with WoW being out for so many years now those mediocre players are beginning to finally get a little bit closer because somehow they kept playing. And instances now are jokes so more power to them. But people like me are rdy to quit from it being to easy.

"However I think that a game where it could take 2 hours to kill a boss, or theres this one game where the boss used to take 30 hours to kill(srsly i think it was lineage 2) That is ridiculous, thats not challenging, if it was you wouldn't be able to live for 30 hours, let alone 2. This just means he had HELLA hp, but was easy to be able to live for so long."

Gorny

08-07-2009, 00:00

^^ I bet you were one of those people who played almost 24/7 and mommy had to take away the keyboard and mouse and you had to go buy another.

[cK]Extreme

08-07-2009, 01:04

^^ I bet you were one of those people who played almost 24/7 and mommy had to take away the keyboard and mouse and you had to go buy another.

Says 18,000 posts and a 99.

There's no reason for that attitude, grow up.

Gorny

08-07-2009, 01:12

That wasn't attitude.

AniMe

08-07-2009, 11:02

Careful what you post Gorny. Back to topic now.

phool

08-07-2009, 12:32

2. I find this condescending because by making different character builds = making new characters and leveling them. That in itself = grinding.
Playing the game in an arduously repetitive fashion - doing runs - is grinding. Making new builds with their own unique requisite playstyles is clearly not. But this is a purely semantic point.

my 1 99 [...] I hate leveling, I only level because its a necessity up to a certain level.
bahahahaha. Even a bvb wouldn't call 99 a necessary level.

"in the beginning" The person who decided to have 4 level 60's or 4 level 70's or 4 lvl 80's, guess what, they were not the good players. They had mediocre gear because they didn't focus on 1 character. And more than gear they didn't have the SKILL to play the class because they didn't spend TIME playing that class, they spent there TIME leveling up 4 other characters to a mediocre level.

Ah, the desperate excuse of the insecure player who knows that if they were put on an equal footing with other players who spend more time playing and less time grinding their true incompetence would become manifest - or why else would they complain? It's patently untrue that skill = constant*f(time) where the constant is universal to every player no matter how they play the game or their background and the whole idea in bundled with a wealth of flawed assumptions. Why should a gamer who obsessively levels to max and acquires the best gear in the realm via extensive pvm get an autowin vs a high level and well geared player who's spent dozens of hours honing their skills in pvp against the full range of builds and players the realm has to offer?

It's called an "artificial barrier". I don't see why endgame can't require both because, again, if you can clear Hell Diff. with just skills then endgame is pretty damn poor and short. Unless you think they're going to come up with something pretty awesome other than just replaying content on harder difficulty levels, which I doubt. You're getting three games for the coding/art price of one.

You can clear Hell difficulty with just skills in D2 and it remains an astonishingly popular game a decade after release. Items in D2 made the difference between playing cautiously on high tier builds and playing with your eyes closed on any build.

D2's real endgame was in cultivating epeen, pandering to a item collection, pvp, or self-imposed challenges via self-imposed rules.

Nextt

08-07-2009, 13:57

Playing the game in an arduously repetitive fashion - doing runs - is grinding. Making new builds with their own unique requisite playstyles is clearly not. But this is a purely semantic point.

bahahahaha. Even a bvb wouldn't call 99 a necessary level.

Ah, the desperate excuse of the insecure player who knows that if they were put on an equal footing with other players who spend more time playing and less time grinding their true incompetence would become manifest - or why else would they complain? It's patently untrue that skill = constant*f(time) where the constant is universal to every player no matter how they play the game or their background and the whole idea in bundled with a wealth of flawed assumptions. Why should a gamer who obsessively levels to max and acquires the best gear in the realm via extensive pvm get an autowin vs a high level and well geared player who's spent dozens of hours honing their skills in pvp against the full range of builds and players the realm has to offer?

D2's real endgame was in cultivating epeen, pandering to a item collection, pvp, or self-imposed challenges via self-imposed rules.

WARNING VERY LONG POST I SPENT 30 MINUTES WRITING IT WHILE LISTENING TO BILL MAHER(And No I don't need anyone who says something like OMG BILL MAHER FAN blahblah I probably only agree with 50-80% of what he says, but 100% of what he says is interesting even if some of what he says is very.... different, but as always lots of good stuff said :), mixing comedy and politic's, Great times

EDIT: Plus 10ish minutes of editing(mainly adding more / changing some words) not fixing comprehension when your typing 120+ wpm I"m to lazy to care about that.

IN B4 WALLOFTEXT!

1. Sure first part is true didn't say it wasn't grinding is part of 95% of games, however 2nd, in order to make that character with a bunch of diff builds etc etc that means they have to level it up. By doing the grindy rush's(unless they played through which i dout) and the grindy baal runs.

2. I didn't say 99 was necessary, read other posts and you would see i talked about what was nice about d2 was a lvl 85 stood a chance against a lvl 99 to where you could make the item difference nothing, and stats by a small amount that a players "skill" could determine the outcome. Who said I have a level 99 because I grinded baal runs manually? Hell no. It's actually my 2nd 99 , as my first 99 was a longer time ago who got banned. Again I didn't spend that time getting him 99, but It wasn't grindy baal runs then either, but GRINDY COW RUNS WEEE! then later on 40 hex + quark bow , or on my barb quark sword. MMM cow 1 shot dead, those were actually fun times, other than the fact that only 2 classes existed since none others stood a chance, bowzon(and of course the java duels!!! WEEE JAB) and barb (which most will say a barb didn't but thats because they were all bad)

3. 1st, how does skill not relate to time? Umm um sorry i forgot that you see people younger than 20 playing pro baseball. Oh wait thats right, thats because usually it takes YEARS to get BETTER. Oh thats right we have doctors with a high school diploma, wait no we don't they do 10 more YEARS after that.
Oh what this is a game and is totally different? No, More time = More knowledge. As you gain knowledge you gain skill. and you gain knowledge over time, not all of a sudden in a 2 week time frame.

Therefor Time = Knowledge = Skill Which in turn again = more knowledge like perhaps moving the mouse not as quickly, strafing instead of running 1 way. Or in other games like perhaps AION, don't use all these fatty nukes on a healer right away(which can be a chanter or cleric both who stand a chance in a pvp perspective), use some medium . low dmg moves. they will think, oh he doesn't do to much dmg and try to deal a lil bit of dmg because you can't heal but they can. Then they will be about 40-50% hp when they start healing, BAM nuke them, stun them, silence them, etc.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE, you don't start playing counterstrike and getting 90% of your kills as headshots (unless your playing source which w/e thats a bad game) it takes TIME. There will never be anything that doesn't take time to reach a higher level of skill or knowledge.

your quote here "where the constant is universal to every player no matter how they play the game or their background and the whole idea in bundled with a wealth of flawed assumptions. "

No one said that, infact it couldn't be more untrue. Theres some people that could spends years on something and just suck no matter what. While some people might be as good as the best players in there game/server within 1/2 the time it took the other people to get there. However its highly unlikly that lets say the best "guild/legion/clan" that have been the best raiding/pvping or w/e they are doing for the past 3 years together. That all of a sudden some random guild/legion/clan made out of a group of people who just turned a plausible level for w/e it is there doing be it pvp or pve, and all of a sudden pass them up.

Sure thats not impossible. But I can guarantee you it would only happen with at least a group of friends on vent who spend alot of TIME, and were the best at there stuff in the other game before coming to this game. Example if Ensidia(which I'm only using this guild as an example because they are the most known guild/clan,etc known world wide by gamers wether they like WoW or not) personally I don't like them cause they don't like USA and have this EU e-peen but at the same time I don't care because they arn't in the USA, anyways. If there whole core raid went to ANY game similar to WoW be it where WoW originated from (Linage , all other MMO's) or what originated from the Idea of WoW and other MMO's with new ideas (AION, Blade and Soul(i think) ) they have a 99% chance of being the best guild/legion/clan in that game they play because of the TIME they spend granted them KNOWLEDGE which in turn granted them SKILL.

Now your quote "Why should a gamer who obsessively levels to max and acquires the best gear in the realm via extensive pvm get an autowin vs a high level and well geared player who's spent dozens of hours honing their skills in pvp against the full range of builds and players the realm has to offer?"

Who said this? I think they should be even, I stated about vanilla wow where pve gear = best pvp gear, yeah sure that was because WoW was made where they couldn't go and offer the same PvP gear as the PvE gear, it wasn't going to work like that.
So in WoW your left with the ridiculous opposite where the person with the best "GEAR" from PvP gets an autowin against the person with the best "GEAR" of PvE. Skill is not played into this factor.
I would love D3 to make these factor into each other, but non MMORPG games that are just ARPG are not usually made into some "Even PvE and even PvP type scenario"

Aion does a pretty amazing job in this catagory(why im gonna play it, at least till d3 which is like 2 years away anyways), essentially the abyss where you PvP (or other places there have been added in now) that have no max amount of people, they arn't instanced its like world PvP but still catagorized within a massive radius so you can't just kill someone at lvl 10 leveling, you get most of BEST gear from abyss. However they also have instances for the PvE lover that some gear is better than what you can obtain from PvP and vice versa, while some gear is virtually the same. So it isn't a nessecity, but by doing both you will be given a "Minuscule" advantage.

"D2's real endgame was in cultivating epeen, pandering to a item collection, pvp, or self-imposed challenges via self-imposed rules"

Well yeah, and guess what, it was obviously considered fun by the majority or D2 wouldn't still have as many people as it does now. Or it wouldn't have so many people wanting a D3.

Perhaps not the e-peen as i think it is used to much, even by me. For instance for me its personally a E-Pride. I could care less about how someone else views me in a game wether they see me as "the person with the most time, the best, the person who uses cheap advantages, the person who cheated to level, the person with no job/life, ETC" it doesn't matter. (which i do have a job/life im not saying all of these relate to me just things people like to say to those who are often times #1)

All that matters is saying "I'm the best at least at what I do and I prove it by having the most points, or kill/death ratio, or high accuracy, or w/e it is the rankings is done by" This is not E-Peen, But E-PRIDE! In the end its just a game so what does it matter to be #1 in a game?

Well sorry to tell you but if that person who is #1 in a game, puts that time into something important in life. they will succeed very far.

For the 95% of people who didn't read this because it was to long all you need to know is, Time = Knowledge = Skill, prove in examples above if you read :)
Basic Principal of life and everything including things outside of life(for those who consider a game outside of life) is How Much Time And Effort You Put Into Something Is What Your Going To Get Out Of It. Or in layman's words Put TIME into gaining knowledge on the molecular bioscoplicle organisms and you can become a bio engineer (or w/e i don't know) and put TIME into gaining knowledge about a game , how ur skills works, what to do during x to have the outcome be y etc etc I can add but my post is way to long already -_-

Gorny

08-07-2009, 15:40

Careful what you post Gorny. Back to topic now.

I will post as I wish. Thank you for your concern.

AniMe

08-07-2009, 15:48

I will post as I wish. Thank you for your concern.

Just because you carry a banstick doesn't mean you're excempt from the rules. Stick to the topic or make your own [OT] thread. Thanks.

Risingred

08-07-2009, 17:38

You can clear Hell difficulty with just skills in D2 and it remains an astonishingly popular game a decade after release. Items in D2 made the difference between playing cautiously on high tier builds and playing with your eyes closed on any build.

I dunno...maybe I suck but I have a real hard time with my new sorc in hell because of immunities. I made a lightning/cold build and I have little in the way of fire ability. I'm gathering gear now for the build but it's a slow process.

D2's real endgame was in cultivating epeen, pandering to a item collection, pvp, or self-imposed challenges via self-imposed rules.

I don't get the whole "epeen" thing. I know what the word is supposed to mean, but I'm an item collector and I play offline. I can't show that gear off to anyone or brag about it. I don't see what's wrong with item collecting, and I think it's great when there's self-imposed challenges. Especially when it's done in a circle of friends or a tight community, such as the classic "live off the land" challenge.
I mean, there's only so much that a game can offer for ten years before you start to get creative in order to still want to play, know what I mean? Most games I play, I don't bother to replay unless they truly grab me. The only one in recent memory since D2 was mass effect for me. Other games, I usually don't even bother finishing. But I've been playing D2 on and off since release. That really says something about the core mechanics of the game being truly great, and the fact that nobody has knocked D2 off the ARPG throne yet.
Hell, I'd say that none of the clones have even beat out D1 yet, which may just be my favorite game of all time.

Sass

08-07-2009, 19:01

I mean, there's only so much that a game can offer for ten years before you start to get creative in order to still want to play, know what I mean? Most games I play, I don't bother to replay unless they truly grab me. The only one in recent memory since D2 was mass effect for me. Other games, I usually don't even bother finishing. But I've been playing D2 on and off since release. That really says something about the core mechanics of the game being truly great, and the fact that nobody has knocked D2 off the ARPG throne yet.
Hell, I'd say that none of the clones have even beat out D1 yet, which may just be my favorite game of all time.I agree with much of this.

Twilight Princess is my fav console game, uh, ever. Replay? Kinda low actually :(

Gear is straight forward, and it just requires skill. I can't really strive for anything in terms of game (well, catch bugs and Poes, but no "runs" or grinding).

Gorny

08-07-2009, 19:14

Just because you carry a banstick doesn't mean you're excempt from the rules. Stick to the topic or make your own [OT] thread. Thanks.

I wasn't breaking any.

So sue me.

Mav451

08-07-2009, 19:19

Well Zelda franchise is the epitome of skill-based ARPG. The items are straight up via dungeon or caves...the problem is that if the game is too easy (Twilight Princess) it loses some of that charm. My complaint with TP is that it WAS too easy. I died, what, once or twice? Who dies only once or twice in a Nintendo game? Mind you I'm speaking from an 1980's perspective, and not the current Mario Party generation :(

Regardless, I'd prefer that Blizz errs on the side of difficulty and not make the same mistake that Miyamoto did in making TP too damn easy. The question is if the difficulty is blatantly b/c of a lack of wealth (cue D2 post-1.10).

On that note, I think the DS Castlevania series (specifically DoS) is my top for ARPG. There's leveling, grinding for souls, and obviously finding items - assuming you don't cheat and GameFAQ lol.

tetracycloide

08-07-2009, 20:32

Time = Knowledge = Skill, prove in examples above if you read :)

This is not only not true but also ignores why people play games. People play games because they are not like life, not because they work the same way. Furthermore time spent on one task does not make someone better at another unrelated task just like mindlessly running pits shouldn't make the player character better at PvP or end game PvE (ubers).

There are plenty of ways to earn rewards in real life other than just putting more time into it and it would be nice if diablo 3 improved on diablo 2 by adjusting the loot system so more time wasn't the only way to aquire gear. Uber tristram was a step in the right direction, highly chalanging on many builds (although imbalanced for smiters) and took a finite amount of time to gurantee a reward.

Starving_Poet

08-07-2009, 21:00

People play games because they are not like life, not because they work the same way.

Woah woah woah there tiger! The greatest selling game of ALL time is a life simulator!

Knight_Wolf

08-07-2009, 21:12

This is not only not true but also ignores why people play games. People play games because they are not like life, not because they work the same way. Furthermore time spent on one task does not make someone better at another unrelated task just like mindlessly running pits shouldn't make the player character better at PvP or end game PvE (ubers).

There are plenty of ways to earn rewards in real life other than just putting more time into it and it would be nice if diablo 3 improved on diablo 2 by adjusting the loot system so more time wasn't the only way to aquire gear. Uber tristram was a step in the right direction, highly chalanging on many builds (although imbalanced for smiters) and took a finite amount of time to gurantee a reward.

Nicely said .. it is 100% true that time investment doesn't result in skill directly ... the equation could be more like this IMO in most games.

(Reflexes)*(Experience+Creativity)=Skill

Experience of course comes from time investment and careful observation of the game systems .... and it is also a 100% wrong notion that skill based games are short lived .. nonsense .. Starcraft lived for 10 years ... Street Fighter 2 is still being played till today in tournaments, got an HD remake online support and Street Fighter 4 is a recreation of the SF2 style (a depart from SF3 system) .... and it's a very technical game that requires a lot of skill ... time investment will help familiarize you with the game system and characters but it will never alone let you win.

The Example of Uber TRistram is great really ... they need to exapnd on it and make a whole challenge mode that keeps thrwoing random powerful combinations of uber monsters at players and measure their skill by calculating how long did they survive, how many kills did they score and how many potions they used ... etc etc

A mode like that should be accessible to all players above level 40 ... it will be a great test for skill since it's very hostile and random and you know very well you will die eventually ... how well you play will be the only measure here .... and skilled players will indeed be rewarded for their skills with good gear.

Here is an example of how it works.

Survival mode.

-You start at stage 1 by killing large groups of normal monsters for 5 stages as a warm up.

-Stage 6 is a random mini-boss

-Beat it and you get a good random blue item

-Stage 7 to 10 throws tougher packs of monsters at you .. large numbers and more variety .. and combinations that you don't see in the normal game.

-The stages keep getting tougher and tougher that at later stages (50 and above you can be facing 4 mini-bosses, and act boss and 40 minions all at once ... all with unique modifiers too .... BEAT THAT :crazyeyes:

-Stages could go up to 200 or 400 and can be extended beyond that using patches easily.

Important survival mode mechanics

-Die in any stage and you lose all the prize items you gained (and all other items you picked up in survivial battle) and is thrown back 20 stages

-You can exit the mode at any point if you wish to keep the items you gain ... but you pay an exit fee (lots of gold) .. if you don't have it you lose the items upon exiting.

-All players above level 50 can enter this mode .. solo or in a team .. in teams things get tougher much faster.

-This mode has tons and tons of longevity since the potential for countless random monsters combinations and random unique monster modifiers that can't be used in the actual normal on any difficulty game.

Hope .. really hope they implement something like that .. THAT requires skill not just flat time investment .. and also encourages team work .. not to mention is heaps of fun, random and full of surprises.

Scudstorm

08-07-2009, 21:13

Woah woah woah there tiger! The greatest selling game of ALL time is a life simulator!

The Sims sold 100 Millions. Mario sold 210 Millions.

Usufruct

08-07-2009, 21:15

Woah woah woah there tiger! The greatest selling game of ALL time is a life simulator!

The best selling PC game of all time ;)

Usufruct

08-07-2009, 21:25

Here is an example of how it works.

-You start by killing large groups of small monsters for 5 stages as a warm up.

-Stage 6 is a random mini-boss

-Beat it and you get a good random blue item

-Stage 7 to 10 throws tougher packs of monsters at you .. large numbers and more variety .. and combinations that you don't see in the normal game.

-Die in any of those stages and you lose the item you gained (and all other items you picked up in battle)

-You can exit the mode at any point if you wish to keep the items you gain ... but you pay an exit fee .. if you don't have it you lose the items also.

-The stages keep getting tougher and tougher that at later stages (50 and above you can be facing 4 mini-bosses, and act boss and 40 minions all at once ... all with unique modifiers too .... BEAT THAT :crazyeyes:

Hope .. really hope they implement something like that.

No offense, but that sounds crappy to me. It's like Diablo II had unprotected sex with Major Stryker and for some reason didn't abort the hideous arcade game hybrid they got pregnant with.

Knight_Wolf

08-07-2009, 21:29

No offense, but that sounds crappy to me. It's like Diablo II had unprotected sex with Major Stryker and for some reason didn't abort the hideous arcade game hybrid they got pregnant with.

Next time try thinking of some meaningful criticism to say other than your childhood sex fantasies.

And some general advice ... if you don't like a mode in any game or lack the skill to tackle it .. DON'T PLAY IT.

Starving_Poet

08-07-2009, 21:39

The Sims sold 100 Millions. Mario sold 210 Millions.

Yeah yeah. Technically it's 23 million versus 40 million - but SMB came with the NES. If you want to split hairs, Wii Play sold more than SMB.

Usufruct

08-07-2009, 21:46

Next time try thinking of some meaningful criticism to say other than your childhood sex fantasies.

And some general advice ... if you don't like a mode in any game or lack the skill to tackle it .. DON'T PLAY IT.

I'm pretty sure my criticism was quite obvious in my "childhood sex fantasy", in that it sounds far too much like an arcade game and far too little like an ARPG.

As to your general advice, I don't play games I don't like, so I suppose I can count myself lucky that you're not on the dev team for this one. And don't get all butthurt, I said "no offense", it's not like I was insulting your mother ;)

Knight_Wolf

08-07-2009, 22:08

I'm pretty sure my criticism was quite obvious in my "childhood sex fantasy", in that it sounds far too much like an arcade game and far too little like an ARPG.

Lols, i suggest you wake up .. Diablo is arcade ... beneath the thin layer of RPG it is very arcadey at its core ..... not to mention ... all arcade/action games now implement RPG features as well .. so it isn't far fetched actually it should be expected.

Want to play a true RPG ... look elsewhere cause Diablo never was .. it is arcade and it is Hack & Slash at its core .. just with added various RPGs touches.

And still that still doesn't count as meaningful criticism.

As to your general advice, I don't play games I don't like.

So becasue a game has a mode you don't like you simply don't play the WHOLE game .. well guess you don't play much games altogether then XD

so I suppose I can count myself lucky that you're not on the dev team for this one.

Hahaha .. same here.

Usufruct

08-07-2009, 22:39

Lols, i suggest you wake up .. Diablo is arcade ... beneath the thin layer of RPG it is very arcadey at its core ..... not to mention ... all arcade/action games now implement RPG features as well .. so it isn't far fetched actually it should be expected.

Want to play a true RPG ... look elsewhere cause Diablo never was .. it is arcade and it is Hack & Slash at its core .. just with added various RPGs touches.

I didn't say Diablo was an RPG or that I'm looking to play an RPG. It's a hack & slash ARPG, but you can cry genre all you like even if you're wrong. What you described I could imagine playing in an actual arcade in my childhood. You know, those places people went in the olden days, before mainstream video games made it to the home. Oh noes, I died on wave 36, quick insert coins so I can rez my pally! Lame. That is not what Diablo is.

And still that still doesn't count as meaningful criticism.

Objectively it does, I told you I thought your idea sucked and I told you why. You want Galaga and I want Diablo.

So becasue a game has a mode you don't like you simply don't play the WHOLE game .. well guess you don't play much games altogether then XD

That's actually not what I said. If Blizzard implements your linear arcade-style idea as the only way to get the best gear, it would wreck the replayability for me, and I suspect a lot of people. It's not very clever end-game content.

Hahaha .. same here.

Don't worry, I've dealt with plenty of noobs over the years ;)

KTang

08-07-2009, 23:00

I won't read all 9 pages, I read a few but when a friend linked me I thought I'd take a little extra peak..

And a Survival-esque mode doesn't belong with Diablo imo, sure it can fit in RPGs but I can't imagine it'd be the same game with the arcade-themed beatemup/devil may cryness minigame of survival :smug:

I personally think Diablo is an RPG and not an Arcade game. I think practically everyone will argue that ;)

KT

Nextt

08-07-2009, 23:31

Next time try thinking of some meaningful criticism to say other than your childhood sex fantasies.

And some general advice ... if you don't like a mode in any game or lack the skill to tackle it .. DON'T PLAY IT.

mmmm hot

anyways, im surprised you mr. knight_wolf didn't respond to my long post quoting every part and having a say against it.

Guess it was to far above you.

Gorny

08-07-2009, 23:33

mmmm hot

anyways, im surprised you mr. knight_wolf didn't respond to my long post quoting every part and having a say against it.

Guess it was to far above you.

Please stop insulting people.

You have been warned about ths by more than one moderator.

Mad Mantis

08-07-2009, 23:36

Generally threads like these tend to not go well. I see that this one isn't the exception proving the rule. Now listen very carefully, I shall only say this once. The next person to insult the person he is replying to (and I don't care how tactfully you do it) will be taking a three day vacation from the forums. So think hard about your next reply. I am sick of having to read three pages of people finding new ways of calling each other noobs, idiots, elitist jerks and arrogant prats every day.

Starving_Poet

08-07-2009, 23:49

*goes to look up the definition of prat*

Ah, that's one of those we don't ever hear over in the states. I wonder what the etymology is.

CCCenturion

08-07-2009, 23:49

It's hard to imagine a thread with a topic like this not turning into a flamefest..

Gorny

08-07-2009, 23:52

Nevertheless, you should all know the forum rules by now. You did check the box that stated "I have read and understand the forum rules" when you signed up.

The rules apply to all members regardless of how long you have been here or how many posts you have, and you are expected to follow them., this includes treating others with respect.

End of discussion.

Mad Mantis

08-07-2009, 23:54

*goes to look up the definition of prat*

The English tend to use it a lot. I don't think the Americans really have a word for it.

Risingred

08-07-2009, 23:54

*goes to look up the definition of prat*

Ah, that's one of those we don't ever hear over in the states. I wonder what the etymology is.

Funny, I thought the same thing. Glad there's another dorky linguist here. :D

All I found was c.1560; origin unknown.

(What? Like this thread is going anywhere. :P )

Nextt

09-07-2009, 00:01

Please stop insulting people.

You have been warned about ths by more than one moderator.

LOL perfect statement coming from you when you write this

^^ I bet you were one of those people who played almost 24/7 and mommy had to take away the keyboard and mouse and you had to go buy another.

And I wasn't insulting him if you look at it and take it into context how it should be taken.

It's more of a scenario of like in a game where 1 person says he is better than the other person. It isn't an insult but simply a challenge. If you specifically didn't take it that way, doesn't matter cause it didn't relate to you anyways.

The English tend to use it a lot. I don't think the Americans really have a word for it.

I have actually heard this term used a few times, be it in high school / college. But the person who used it in America tended to get laughed at for using it. Why? I dunno i have no idea, but I know that every time I've heard it been used the user got laughed at. We Americans are a-holes.

Risingred

09-07-2009, 00:04

If you specifically didn't take it that way, doesn't matter cause it didn't relate to you anyways.

He's a moderator.
Everything that goes on in here directly relates to him, because that is his resposibility.

Nextt

09-07-2009, 00:08

He's a moderator.
Everything that goes on in here directly relates to him, because that is his resposibility.

Yeah but after his one words(that I quoted), he will never get treated like a moderator from me. No respect, lost it all. Not that he cares(or maybe he does?) but I dunno. Just sayin.

Starving_Poet

09-07-2009, 00:13

This is like sitting outside a bar and watching a drunk guy argue with a cop.

You just need to be patient and wait for it. :)

Nextt

09-07-2009, 00:18

This is like sitting outside a bar and watching a drunk guy argue with a cop.

You just need to be patient and wait for it. :)

Rofl, I had that once. Because I was arguing with him, and in the car they were driving like 100 mph in a 60 mph speed limit road so i told him to slow the fook down(i dunno if cussing is allowed in the forum) and they told me to shut up and yeah. Anyways they took me to jail and were total a-holes. They put me on this bench and wouldn't let me go anywhere while they did w/e they had to do.
I told him I needed to go to the bathroom but they told me to bad hold it in blahblah. So I just pissed my pants so it went all over there bench and floor so they would have to clean it up. Yeah they were pissed, they hit me a couple times and threw me in jail for the night, released me in the morning.
I tried to sue them but it just so happens that they decided not to keep any records on me being in there, so I couldn't sue them because there was no evidence I was ever there.

CORRUPT COPS!

Risingred

09-07-2009, 00:20

Rofl, I had that once. Because I was arguing with him. Anyways they took me to jail and were total a-holes. They put me on this bench and wouldn't let me go anywhere while they did w/e they had to do.
I told him I needed to go to the bathroom but they told me to bad hold it in blahblah. So I just pissed my pants so it went all over there bench and floor so they would have to clean it up. Yeah they were pissed, they hit me a couple times and threw me in jail for the night, released me in the morning.
I tried to sue them but it just so happens that they decided not to keep any records on me being in there, so I couldn't sue them because there was no evidence I was ever there.

CORRUPT COPS!

...wow. I don't want to get banned, so I'm leaving this thread lol

Knight_Wolf

09-07-2009, 00:27

I didn't say Diablo was an RPG or that I'm looking to play an RPG. It's a hack & slash ARPG, but you can cry genre all you like even if you're wrong. What you described I could imagine playing in an actual arcade in my childhood. You know, those places people went in the olden days, before mainstream video games made it to the home. Oh noes, I died on wave 36, quick insert coins so I can rez my pally! Lame. That is not what Diablo is

NEWS FLASH .. neither what you said has anything with what "arcade" means today ... it seems that the definition of Arcade in your head is the retro one (ah .. more childhood stuff /jk)

Arcade games nowadays are totally different ... and actually it's all about the mechanics carried over from old arcade games to modern action games, RPGs, FPS and all sorts of genres ... there are tons of games that mix RPGs elements with action and arcade game features very well ..... besides .. adding a side mode doesn't magically turn the game into an arcade game .. neither arcade = BAD or doesn't fit with Diablo.

Objectively it does, I told you I thought your idea sucked and I told you why. You want Galaga and I want Diablo.

You ASSUMED i want Galaga ... besides .. your Diablo (the imaginary one in your head) doesn't have to be what D3 will turn into ... not one bit.

That's actually not what I said. If Blizzard implements your linear arcade-style idea as the only way to get the best gear, it would wreck the replayability for me, and I suspect a lot of people. It's not very clever end-game content.

ONLY !!! ... where the heck did i say i want it to be the only way to obtain items ... where did you get that from !!! ... i already said a thousand times that many people want alternative methods to obtain good gear other than mindless repetitive grinding.

And don't put clever and end game together if you are going to talk about D2 ... it's like oil and water ... there is nothing .. not even one bit clever about the end game in Diablo 2 .. in fact ... there is Nothing altogether.

In fact i doubt you understood what the mode will be like .. if anything it will be much more replayable than the game itself and way more random than it could ever get .. there is no basis to your weird assumption that it will hurt replayability because it is designed to do the opposite .. specially that it isn't easy to get out of it even if you gain the items.

There will be a large penalty of gold if you want to quit mid game (the higher the stage the higher the penalty) and dying simply takes away all the items you collected there.

--------------------------

A good example relating to our topic.

In SC2 Blizz achieved balance by presenting both sides (hardcore elitists and casual players) with features .. the hardcore elitists with their typical close mindedness didn't like that the casual players are getting features to streamline their game and make it more accessible and modern (multiple building selection, auto repair, etc etc) ... but i'm glad the guys at Blizz shove those silly complaints aside and DID implement those features in the end while giving the elitists some extra features (advanced replay system, adding more macro) to chew on and make them stop whining.

Hope they do the same with Diablo 3 or otherwise it will end up as an archaic outdated game with candy coating.