Dragon Talon Gear

[Akimbo]

So, next random build is going to be based around Dragon Talon. Looked at the faqs, but I like to be sure.

Gear I'm aiming for:

Helm:

Shako/Guilliumes Face

Armour:

Fortitude ( %ed from off weapon is better for DTalon? )

Weapons:

Last Wish - 60% crushing blow

Kingslayer - Crushing blow 33%, open wounds 50%, vengeance ( phys immune counter maybe. ) ias, ar... guides suggested Last Wish, but this looks like a contender...

Stormlash - Crushing blow 33%, lightning damage, chance to cast static field. ( With high kick speed? )

Shield:

Phoenix ( Again %ed from off weapon is better? )

Gloves:

Draculs

Boots:

Upped Gores



Rings/amu/belt to suit needs, probably raven/rare, maras, Verdungo.

So what would people suggest from the weapon choice? What about the rest of the gear, any other suggestions?

This is going to be just for PvM messing around, but it still needs to be able to solo hell for example.

Rest of the skills will either go on traps, claw blocking, burst of speed as needed for breakpoints etc.

[Shanksie1337]

Been loosly following the warriormonk guide, my 'sin who's just hit 73 in NM baal:

Guillaume face (nothing in socket yet)
Highlords
CoH
Dungos 15%
SS (not socketed yet either)
Gores (not upped yet, but will do ofc)
Rare 2MA 20ias gloves (draculs in stash for a few levels time)
Ravenfrost
Manald (for ml)
2*Bartucs on prebuff switch

Main Weapon:
Using a Fleshrender atm, i'm not using a LW, could probably afford one, but it's too much imho. As to endgame choices:
Fleshripper, Stormlash, might make a kingslayer PB, toying with Cresent Moon if i can't trade for a stormlash (for non-ubers static = win). Toying also with Death, as that would also provide ml.

Skills:
12 Dtalon - fairly low, as i'm uncertain about +skills.
20 Death Sentry
1 in almost everything
loads of spare points, will probably:
20 Venom
20 Lightning Sentry
then see where we are for bp's and BoS & SMaster

My playstyle is more ranged trapper melee kicksin instead of bfury. But i'm certainly interested aswell in weapon choices, the guide listed pretty much every weapon under the sun, but it'd be nice to get a more condensed view as to what ppl were using *other than LW*.

[mephiztophelez]

my suggested gear for a Kick/Trap'sin:
hat: Guillaumes
armour: Treachery
shield: stormshield
belt: t-gods
gloves: dracs
weapon: stormlash
boots: up'd gores
ammy: maras
rings: raven + something with mana leech
charms: plain 20 life SC's will do just fine. use trap skillers if you wish.
sockets: up to you really.

skills: max Lit sentry, charged bolt sentry, death sentry
enough in d-talon to get 4 kicks with +skills
1pt: venom, mind-blast, d-flight, shadow master
spares to Shockweb.

stats:
str: enough for gear (you need 156 for up'd gores and SS)
dex: enough for max-block
energy: lol
vit: everything else.

[fatalfury]

Hi there seems to be a lot of weapon choices for the dtalon sin.
And personally, I'm going to get a infinity defiance merc. And I want to know what would be the best weapon for this. I want to get her to the point where she will be able to solo ubers

Gear I have prepared so far
nigma archon plate
dracul's
guil face/shako
whistan/stormshield.
probably Tgods, trang or verdungo or crededum depending on resists
upped gores.. I got a 169 ed should I aim for higher? or does it make a difference at all?
highlord
raven and dl ring.

I'm having a dilemna which to hunt for, stormlash, crescent moon or rift..
This sin is probably gonna focus on killing ubers but I've never been there before so I dunno how well static field works on them.

PS: it strikes me as a build that is wanting in the resist department so I wonder if I should prep a kira and COH if I want to do serious uber hunting.

[Smirch]

mephiztophelez's suggestions for gear and skills are good. I may not invest the 2-3 points for a shadow next time - their usefulness drops a lot as you get better with mind blast/cloak of shadows. I just finished building a kick/trap assassin untwinked, and have solo'd the key runs, sub-ubers (duriel, izual, lilith), and the ubers 3 times now. I didn't die at all on my 3rd run, and on my first runs only died to Lilith (due to inexperience and low attack rating because I didn't use angelic set) and Diablo (after baal and meph were dead, because I got cocky and didn't refill my belt with potions).

The gear I use for ubers is:
Guillaume's Face (socket Um)
Guardian Angel (socket Um - the extra block and +max resist on this item is nice too, but not necessary)
Wizardspike (socket Shael, amazing resists and Shael gets you to good kick breakpoints, even without BoS for using fade on uber meph, and Gores+Guillaume's is enough crushing)
Moser's Blessed Circle (socket 2 pdiamonds)
Raven Frost
Angelic Halo
Angelic Wings (20% dmg taken goes to mana replaces the mana leech you'd normally need on ubers)
Dracul's Grasp
Gore Riders upgraded (the % enhanced defense doesn't matter)
Spirit shield and life tap wand on swap (for prebuff and initial life tap cast when pulling ubers)
IK belt
Lots of crappy +resist charms (you could probably get away with only a few +5 all res smalls or +15 all res grands, especially if you have an annihilus and torch - I use a bunch of crap ones like +6% lightning resist small charm with no other mods, but they add up and are necessary for untwinked play)

Notes on Armor: I swap on a 20%dr Vamp Gaze (socket Sol) and a Shaftstop (socket Sol) for running nihlathak. It helps immensely on the tomb viper poison tail attack. Ideally I'd probably use a +2 assassin circlet of Life Everlasting for 20+ 'Damage Reduced by X' socketed with Sol (two if you're lucky at Larzuk) and Enigma or the cheaper option of Iron Pelt/Gladiator's Bane (socket Sol). A Gerke's Sanctuary (socket Sol) is also a great item to swap on if you want to use enigma for nihlathak, and it's incredibly cheap.

Enigma will be great for quick key running. The ideal general use armor and for ubers is probably a chains of honor. Treachery is a good option too.

Weapons: Stormlash is a great general purpose weapon if you don't need resists from wizard spike, but you can do ubers with just the CB from Guillaume's+Gores. Rift isn't that great for this build. Crescent Moon is a great starter weapon, but the stats are more useful for general killing than for the ubers specifically. For uber killing, the static field on Stormlasth/Crescent Moon wouldn't do much for you since CB drops the top half of their health bar fast. You could also just reverse what I do and use a CB weapon with a high resist Kira's - I didn't do this because I don't have a weapon with more than the 35% CB on Guillaume's that hits a fast kick FPA and my kira's is only 53%.

Jewelry: You need the angelic set for ubers to hit reliably and not die to no leech from a miss string. The guides on this forum try to downplay the importance of attack rating with dragon talon, but you need it for bosses. Prebuffing with Enchant from a Demon Limb can help your attack rating too. Mara's, a magic amulet with +2 skills of Life Everlasting, or an insane rare with +2 skills, resists, 'Damage Reduced by X', and mana leech are good options outside of ubers.

Fighting the Ubers and Strategy: Duriel is easy, just make sure you have enough attack rating, preferably with the angelic set, and good blocking. Izual is also easy, provided you are good with mind blast/cloak of shadows and can deal with the oblivion knights on the way to him. Lilith hits really hard, so make sure you chug some antidote potions and again have good attack rating for consistent life tap leech.

When fighting the prime evils in tristram, keep in mind that cloak of shadows works on the minions all 3 summon, but casting it DOESN'T overwrite life tap on the boss (because the boss is immune to CoS), so you can use it to crowd control all the minions without ruining your life leech. Mind blast and the conversion effect also works on the minions, so you can prevent a lot of incoming damage by throwing out a CoS or MB when your health is high. The last time I did uber Diablo, he was attacking one of his Pit Lords half the fight and I wasn't getting hit at all. Lightning Sentry will 1- or 2-shot the mana burn ghosts that baal summons, making him a lot easier, provided you went the trap/kick route and maxed it and maxed charged bolt sentry/death sentry.

[fatalfury]

Thank you very much for the comprehensive answer. Guess I don't have to worry too much about the weapon then.

[Smirch]

Weapon is actually one of your least restricted and least important item slots with this build. That's why I turned it into a defensive stat item slot by using wiz spike.

Side note: You can magic find decently well with this build too. The basic rule is keep your raven frost, upped gore rider, and draculs on. Swap around anything else you want. I usually put on a skullder's, gull dagger (socket Shael), nagelring, 3ptopaz helm, and MF amulet and switch from BoS to fade to make up any missing resists. There are obviously better options if you don't play untwinked.

[Akimbo]

I dunno, I'd say weapon was still one of the most important factors in this build. The raw damage isn't but due to the limited modifiers working with kicks, you have to make sure you get as much bang for your buck as possible.

Thanks for all the replies, really useful :)

Would venom ( 20 points ) be worth it for kicks, since it applies to each kick?

Also again, could someone clarify that off weapon %ed is the way to go for kicks?

Oh and I'm trying to avoid trap use with this character, any suggestions on what else to take?

[Smirch]

For weapon, the only thing that matters is the base weapon speed (a.k.a. WSM) and IAS on it to hit the desired kick speed FPA breakpoint. If you have enough crushing blow and resistances from the rest of your gear, it really doesn't matter what's on your weapon and you can defeat the ubers. You could use a bone wand of life tap as your primary weapon if you really wanted to and do fine (this is actually a decent poor man's setup that lets you get away with no draculs - bone wand of life tap, 2x upgraded goblin toe, IAS/resist gloves like magus skin or laying of hands, guillaumes face).

I suggest checking out the warrior-monk thread, as that sounds more like what you want to play: http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392666

That build maxes venom and only uses death sentry to explode corpses. I prefer the kick/trap variant and I use traps more, so I haven't really investigated off-weapon %ed and trying to maximize kick damage, plus I play untwinked so high runes are hard to come by for things like fortitude/phoenix.

[Shanksie1337]

Part of the reason i've gone for traps aswell is the fact that theres nothing really in the MA tree that needs maxxing, even DTalon doesn't need the full 20 skill points depending on your +skills and as it has no synergies you really do have millions of spare points to pad out something else.

I guess you could go Tiger Strike / DTail, but as they should be doable with gear, not ideal though and having made a TS/DTail'er in the past that i didn't enjoy i kept well clear. I also dont' really use traps per se, or rather the only trap i do use is Death Senty, once i've killed 1 mob the chain CE starts and whole packs just fall down. So i play as kicker, just with a very strong corpse explosion supporting me providing me with AoE killing. LSentry is just there to do something other than twiddle my thumbs when OK's and Iron Maiden are about.

From what i've read over the last few days whilst planning this char, Venon does seem to be the way to go, i know i plan on maxxing it.

Off weapon ed is one way to go yes, as on weapon ed doen't count, but i plan on getting most of my killing speed from the modifiers such as OW & CB. My understanding is that kick dmg really isn't that important, it's what effects these kicks deliver that does the killing.

[mephiztophelez]

mephiztophelez's suggestions for gear and skills are good. I may not invest the 2-3 points for a shadow next time - their usefulness drops a lot as you get better with mind blast/cloak of shadows
I’d still get a 1 point shadow master. They are handy.

The gear I use for ubers is:
Guillaume's Face (socket Um)
Guardian Angel (socket Um - the extra block and +max resist on this item is nice too, but not necessary)
Wizardspike (socket Shael, amazing resists and Shael gets you to good kick breakpoints, even without BoS for using fade on uber meph, and Gores+Guillaume's is enough crushing)
Moser's Blessed Circle (socket 2 pdiamonds)
Raven Frost
Angelic Halo
Angelic Wings (20% dmg taken goes to mana replaces the mana leech you'd normally need on ubers)
Dracul's Grasp
Gore Riders upgraded (the % enhanced defense doesn't matter)
Spirit shield and life tap wand on swap (for prebuff and initial life tap cast when pulling ubers)
IK belt
Lots of crappy +resist charms (you could probably get away with only a few +5 all res smalls or +15 all res grands, especially if you have an annihilus and torch - I use a bunch of crap ones like +6% lightning resist small charm with no other mods, but they add up and are necessary for untwinked play)
Nice gear selection.
I used a Smoke armour, 2x Jade Talon combo last time I ubered with a kicker.

Notes on Armor: I swap on a 20%dr Vamp Gaze (socket Sol) and a Shaftstop (socket Sol) for running nihlathak. It helps immensely on the tomb viper poison tail attack. Ideally I'd probably use a +2 assassin circlet of Life Everlasting for 20+ 'Damage Reduced by X' socketed with Sol (two if you're lucky at Larzuk) and Enigma or the cheaper option of Iron Pelt/Gladiator's Bane (socket Sol). A Gerke's Sanctuary (socket Sol) is also a great item to swap on if you want to use enigma for nihlathak, and it's incredibly cheap.
You mean, something like THIS?? (http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/5151/ccoleap8.jpg)
iDR is much better than %DR when it comes to Nihlathak’s Vipers. Get ~45+ iDR and the vipers won’t hurt at all. with that helm and a stormshield, i can just ignore the vipers.

Enigma will be great for quick key running. The ideal general use armor and for ubers is probably a chains of honor. Treachery is a good option too.
I like Smoke for res myself. Or even a good Vipermagi with a res jool. Enigma is NOT needed for Nihlathak running. Before I published my Nihlathak 1.0.1 (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=595668)guide, I would regularly beat bnet standard hammerdins down to Nihlathak and get myself temp-banned with my treachery'sin.


Jewelry:You need the angelic set for ubers to hit reliably and not die to no leech from a miss string. The guides on this forum try to downplay the importance of attack rating with dragon talon, but you need it for bosses. Prebuffing with Enchant from a Demon Limb can help your attack rating too. Mara's, a magic amulet with +2 skills of Life Everlasting, or an insane rare with +2 skills, resists, 'Damage Reduced by X', and mana leech are good options outside of ubers
Unfortunately Rare ammy’s and helms can only get, iirc, 10 iDR on them. If it’s iDR you want, use Magic items.



Would venom ( 20 points ) be worth it for kicks, since it applies to each kick?
Not on a PvM kick/trapper, you have far more important things to spend points on (trap synergies!!!!). Just a base point is plenty. Maxing Venom is for PvP builds.

Also again, could someone clarify that off weapon %ed is the way to go for kicks?
No, it’s not.
Kick physical damage is never going to be huge. Plenty of people have attempted to make phys damage PvP kickers (fort/phoenix/beast/etc) and they just don’t work (well, they don't work as well as they "should").

Where d-talon shines is the fast attack speed (third fastest attack in the game after Whirlwind and Strafe), which allows you to keep applying mods like Crushing Blow (and CtC static) very fast, AND the monstrous +%AR you get from d-talon.

Seriously, don’t stress about physical kick damage. Just get some up’d gores and be done with it.

Oh and I'm trying to avoid trap use with this character, any suggestions on what else to take?
Even if you’re going the straight-kicker route, I’d still max Death Sentry.
If you are going straight kicker, then by all means max out Venom. you may even wish to consider maxing out Shadow Master. i once put a few too many points into 'Master on one, now retired, 'sin. i recently doped that 'toon up on +shadow gear and threw down a lvl40+ 'master. that battletank took hell Shenk down on it's own.



I guess you could go Tiger Strike / DTail, but as they should be doable with gear.
The problem with tiger/tail is the double-nerf on damage. First, your kick damage is nerfed by any %DR on the opponent, then that nerfed damage is nerfed again by resists. Sure, you may have great numbers on the LCS (mai sin doez 25k damage!!11!!), but in reality, you’re better off just using d-talon with some decent crushing blow.

My understanding is that kick dmg really isn't that important, it's what effects these kicks deliver that does the killing.
Bingo! Enlightenment dawns! welcome to the Sacred Order Of Mageslayers, enjoy our spa and relax in the bar. please remove your gore-riders before walking on our plushpile carpet.

[Smirch]

I’d still get a 1 point shadow master. They are handy.They are handy, especially when you're inexperienced and for leveling, but an advanced player can get by without them. Once you reach end-game, they aren't that great without a large point investment. Mine dies to 2-3 monsters in a players 1 game. You can use it to stall for a second while you reposition or to eat a swing from a fanatacism extra strong frenzytaur that you're trying to run past, but you could accomplish the same thing with a mind blast if you're quick on the draw. It also annoys the f- out of me that summoning a shadow puts a long cooldown on your dragon flight; has almost killed me a few times, except I switched to mind blast spam until the cooldown came up (which I should've just used in the first place). I also hate the minion movement AI, especially when I'm trying to manage a monster's aggro radius to pull a single monster out or other such fancy tricks. The negatives for using it weigh in about the same as the benefits in my experience, so I think I'd prefer a minor increase to trap damage.

You mean, something like THIS?? (http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/5151/ccoleap8.jpg)
iDR is much better than %DR when it comes to Nihlathak’s Vipers. Get ~45+ iDR and the vipers won’t hurt at all. with that helm and a stormshield, i can just ignore the vipers.Yeah, iDR is a lot better for it. I only use gaze/shaft because it's all I have, but I at least put Sol runes in them. I'd love to have a circlet like yours, or a similar magic amulet, or even a unique pavise/glad bane/iron pelt, but I play untwinked and haven't found any. The closest I've come is: http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/3598/screenshot002lji.jpg but wrong class. :( Also, while my setup isn't ideal, it still takes the punch out of the attack and makes it manageable. On the subject of assassin circlets, this one I found makes me so sad: http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6607/screenshot001kyk.jpg Why is it ethereal? :(

I like Smoke for res myself. Or even a good Vipermagi with a res jool. Enigma is NOT needed for Nihlathak running. Before I published my Nihlathak 1.0.1 (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=595668)guide, I would regularly beat bnet standard hammerdins down to Nihlathak and get myself temp-banned with my treachery'sin.Yeah, I can already hit the temp-ban game creation limit with my current assassin. I just run through with BoS and some skillful use of MB/CoS/DFlight. It's quite easy once you know the 3 patterns for halls of pain and the trick to finding the right direction in halls of vaught (without using map hack, obviously).

Unfortunately Rare ammy’s and helms can only get, iirc, 10 iDR on them. If it’s iDR you want, use Magic items.I looked the other day and I think it was 7 iDR max on rares. My intent wasn't to suggest that you'd seek a rare amulet to get iDR, but rather that iDR is a nice additional stat to get on an otherwise good rare amulet, for this particular character. The assumption was that you'd combine it with a "big" source of iDR, like a magic circlet or a gladiator's bane/iron pelt. That's why I specifically mentioned the "Life Everlasting" suffix, since it only occurs on magical items, not rares.

[mephiztophelez]

It's quite easy once you know the 3 patterns for halls of pain and the trick to finding the right direction in halls of vaught (without using map hack, obviously).

all that infoz is in mah guide......

[Smirch]

Yeah, I was just saying that using the tactics in your guide results in fast run times, even with sub-optimal gear. Enough to hit the game creation speed limit imposed by bnet.

[Akimbo]

Not on a PvM kick/trapper, you have far more important things to spend points on (trap synergies!!!!). Just a base point is plenty. Maxing Venom is for PvP builds.

No, it’s not.
Kick physical damage is never going to be huge. Plenty of people have attempted to make phys damage PvP kickers (fort/phoenix/beast/etc) and they just don’t work (well, they don't work as well as they "should").

Even if you’re going the straight-kicker route, I’d still max Death Sentry.

If you are going straight kicker, then by all means max out Venom. you may even wish to consider maxing out Shadow Master. i once put a few too many points into 'Master on one, now retired, 'sin. i recently doped that 'toon up on +shadow gear and threw down a lvl40+ 'master. that battletank took hell Shenk down on it's own.



Okay, first off, I'm well aware that kick damage is never going to be huge, that it's about stacking crushing blow and other effects as fast as possible. I wanted to squeeze as much out of it as possible, mostly just for the leech. ( And because I feel like it lol :) )

Decided on Max Venom anyway, while it's rare that I pvp it does happen sometimes, plus I think the damage is reasonable for pvm. ( If nothing else it should counter some natural regen before I get a prevent monster heal weapon. )

Why max death sentry? The only reason to use it over lightning sentry is the corpse explosion. As far as I know the CE effect is the same whether your sentry is level 1 or level 20. I'm basically done with my build already with 20/20 DTalon/Venom. So I still have ~60 points to spend on skills. I'm considering shadow master, but I'm also considering dumping points into either light sentry / charged sentry / shock web, or maybe Shadow Master + Blade Fury. I wanted to avoid traps, since it'd just become a trapper build with kicks, but there really isn't much more to spend my skills on.

What about Mercs by the way? I'm probably going to use Last Wish, with Kingslayer on switch ( just some variety ). So I'll already have access to might. I was thinking either Holy freeze or Defiance with an Infinity polearm.

p.s. Does anyone have a rough idea how much damage light sentry does with one synergy maxed? ( and one into each other synergy. ) Rather than being my main weapon, it'd be more like light support.

p.p.s. In the Thingy Monk Guide, someone said Grief +3xx damage DOES work with kicks, it just gets tagged on the end, not worked into the equation for damage. Can anyone confirm this?

p.p.p.s. ( lol.. ) Despite the huge ar bonus on DTalon, at the moment if I take off my sigons/hsarus ( Still using gear from level 9 ish at level 60 :P ) I only have around 4.5k ar. Anyone suggest a decent way to get some "hard points" for the % Bonus from DTalon to Multiply? I really don't want to use Angelic or Metal Grid, I also have a Raven on already. Does that leave me with basically just Charms for ar?

[adujar]

I kind of have the same question, instead of creating a whole new thread about it I may as well ask it here cause akimbo hade the same kind of "problem".
My assa will pretty much be a pure kicker (tried a kick/trapper but I ended up using DS exclusively so all my points in LS and its synenergies was a waste...) with:

20 DT (well, aiming for 24 with +skills)
20 Venom
20 DS (all these hardpoints for the radius btw akimbo)
All the useful one point wonders (except 3pts in FB, 5pts in BoS - just love it).

But now what? With this skill allocation I have 20 skill points left to distribute until lvl 91 (102 points)...

Options? (Blade skills are out of the question, hate those)

1. Synenergize DS with LS - a waste since the DS and LS will be to weak dmg-wise for hell anyways?

2. OR 10 points in FB for DS 11 hits (with +skills) - seems like a good investment to me?
AND additional 10 points in SM - also a nice investment, but will she survive in hell?

3. OR all 20 points in SM?

4. OR get totally cracy with either BoS or Fade - the high lvl returns on these skills are very very low?

5. OR a mix of something?

Im not yet forced to make this decision but I would appreciate any input on this, thanks!



PS. Akimbo - LS with only one synenergy does 3-1067 dmg (http://www.d2items.com/skills.php?class=assa)

[Akimbo]

I kind of have the same question, instead of creating a whole new thread about it I may as well ask it here cause akimbo hade the same kind of "problem".
My assa will pretty much be a pure kicker (tried a kick/trapper but I ended up using DS exclusively so all my points in LS and its synenergies was a waste...) with:

20 DT (well, aiming for 24 with +skills)
20 Venom
20 DS (all these hardpoints for the radius btw akimbo)
All the useful one point wonders (except 3pts in FB, 5pts in BoS - just love it).

But now what? With this skill allocation I have 20 skill points left to distribute until lvl 91 (102 points)...

Options? (Blade skills are out of the question, hate those)

1. Synenergize DS with LS - a waste since the DS and LS will be to weak dmg-wise for hell anyways?

2. OR 10 points in FB for DS 11 hits (with +skills) - seems like a good investment to me?
AND additional 10 points in SM - also a nice investment, but will she survive in hell?

3. OR all 20 points in SM?

4. OR get totally cracy with either BoS or Fade - the high lvl returns on these skills are very very low?

5. OR a mix of something?

Im not yet forced to make this decision but I would appreciate any input on this, thanks!



PS. Akimbo - LS with only one synenergy does 3-1067 dmg

Ty for clarifying what hard points into DS does.

1) The extra damage with an infinity merc might be okay.

2) Extra DS blasts might be worth it, just. Saves you recasting them. ( Though that's not hard. )

3) Shadow Master just annoys me. I think she'd survive in hell, but wouldn't be much other than fodder. If you went crazy with 30+ points ( from items obviously ) she might be worth it.

4) You should probably be using Last Wish for DTalon, which casts fade anyway. So not much point in points in BoS or Fade, since the ctc will overwrite them.

I'm regretting Venom so far. Just seems to do nothing for some reason. Perhaps when I get my trang gloves on it might do a little better. If not, I'm not really bothered. What I'm really trying to avoid is becoming a Trapper with Kicks, as opposed to a Kicker with Traps. As it stands though There's really nothing else worth spending my points on, so the next 40 or so I get might just end up in Light Sentry/Death Sentry anyway. I'm probably going to pop one into Blade Sentinal and Blade fury as well. Just for the variety.

[Smirch]

I still highly recommend the kick/trap build with maxed LS synergies, even if you want to play as a "kicker with traps", not the other way around. Pumping points into venom is a much smaller damage increase, and one of the biggest strengths of the build is the 4 element damage types (physical, poison, lightning, fire). Playing as a kicker with traps is still easily accomplished with gear selection (don't focus on +skills, focus on CB/ias/ctc) and just your playstyle. If you ever changed your mind wanted to play around as a trapper, you'd also have the option without building a new character.

With 20 already in venom, I'd max death sentry then probably shadow master, and maybe pump fade if you don't plan on using LW or Treachery. The radius increase on DS is more helpful than you might think, and its CE damage isn't dependent on synergies. The only caveat is that it's not as effective in games with lots of players, but is still decent. On players1 it slaughters things.

[adujar]

Ty for clarifying what hard points into DS does.

1) The extra damage with an infinity merc might be okay.

2) Extra DS blasts might be worth it, just. Saves you recasting them. ( Though that's not hard. )

3) Shadow Master just annoys me. I think she'd survive in hell, but wouldn't be much other than fodder. If you went crazy with 30+ points ( from items obviously ) she might be worth it.

4) You should probably be using Last Wish for DTalon, which casts fade anyway. So not much point in points in BoS or Fade, since the ctc will overwrite them.

I'm regretting Venom so far. Just seems to do nothing for some reason. Perhaps when I get my trang gloves on it might do a little better. If not, I'm not really bothered. What I'm really trying to avoid is becoming a Trapper with Kicks, as opposed to a Kicker with Traps. As it stands though There's really nothing else worth spending my points on, so the next 40 or so I get might just end up in Light Sentry/Death Sentry anyway. I'm probably going to pop one into Blade Sentinal and Blade fury as well. Just for the variety.

1. Can you afford infinity, fine...I know I cannot.

2. Its leaning towards this one for me.

3. She is one crappy tank (when not maximising it). Compared to the 1pt wonderbear which my windy have, she is worthless. But sure, she mind blast now and then but the crap with her traps overriding mine, horrible.

4. I will probably use a Black flail to start with before I can afford something else, but I doubt it will be Last Wish. Hopefully Stormlash.

I still highly recommend the kick/trap build with maxed LS synergies, even if you want to play as a "kicker with traps", not the other way around. Pumping points into venom is a much smaller damage increase, and one of the biggest strengths of the build is the 4 element damage types (physical, poison, lightning, fire). Playing as a kicker with traps is still easily accomplished with gear selection (don't focus on +skills, focus on CB/ias/ctc) and just your playstyle. If you ever changed your mind wanted to play around as a trapper, you'd also have the option without building a new character.

With 20 already in venom, I'd max death sentry then probably shadow master, and maybe pump fade if you don't plan on using LW or Treachery. The radius increase on DS is more helpful than you might think, and its CE damage isn't dependent on synergies. The only caveat is that it's not as effective in games with lots of players, but is still decent. On players1 it slaughters things.

The thing is that I would recommend that build to others as well, cause it is probably superior. But, it doesnt fit my playstyle at all. I found myself cast some LS and one DS, go kicking. After just a second though I always end up replacing all the LS with DS for additional killing speed. For me its not worth 40+ hardpoints for that first kill when it is usually delivered by DT. Spending that many points requires LS to be your primary trap, and for me it's not. Four element types of dmg is nice, but when will you need that?

Guess I expressed myself as if I already had the points invested which I dont. Currently I have 18DT, 1Venom, 1Fade, 1BoS, 2DS, 1SM, 1MB etc. at lvl 32. If I can get my hands on a Treachery I dont need to invest further into Venom or Fade, thats for sure. But then I will have 40 points to spare! Maybe I go with a Duress for superior def and additional CB...cannot decide...

More opinions would be appreciated.

[Akimbo]

I don't feel the need for four elements at all. The only thing that can stop my kicker would physical immune and that's why I'm having Kingslayer on switch :p ( Cheaper alternatives are out there of course. )

Anyway, if you can't afford infinity ( Yes I'm spoilt as far as what I can afford goes these days ) or don't really feel the need for the lightning traps, max DS, then maybe Fade if you won't be using Last Wish. ( I'd kind of prefer it if LW didn't cast fade, since I'd much prefer to cast my own lvl 25+ fade.. .)

[adujar]

The thing is that a lvl 15 Fade (from gear) gives 60% res all while a lvl 25 gives 67%. Thats ~20 hardpoints for only 7% extra...If you add another 15lvls (lvl 40), you get 4% in return....

So I cannot see that an investment in Fade is ever worth it if you planning to use treachery or lw (and the armor is not that hard to get, so I just realized that more than 1 pt in Fade probably never is a good idea).

[Akimbo]

The thing is that a lvl 15 Fade (from gear) gives 60% res all while a lvl 25 gives 67%. Thats ~20 hardpoints for only 7% extra...If you add another 15lvls (lvl 40), you get 4% in return....

So I cannot see that an investment in Fade is ever worth it if you planning to use treachery or lw (and the armor is not that hard to get, so I just realized that more than 1 pt in Fade probably never is a good idea).

Ah, you're forgetting the damage reduction. Which is 1% per level. So that'd be another 10% in comparison ( And another 25 if you got it all the way to 40 somehow ). Of course, not everyone can afford Last Wish, so it's a viable alternative to those who can't. Of course if you can afford LW, there's little point in putting more than 1 point in fade. ( Assuming you're going to take venom or actually use the skill in lower levels. - Yes some people actually play something other than Uber Trist. )

[adujar]

Ah, you're forgetting the damage reduction. Which is 1% per level. So that'd be another 10% in comparison ( And another 25 if you got it all the way to 40 somehow ). Of course, not everyone can afford Last Wish, so it's a viable alternative to those who can't. Of course if you can afford LW, there's little point in putting more than 1 point in fade. ( Assuming you're going to take venom or actually use the skill in lower levels. - Yes some people actually play something other than Uber Trist. )

Actually I didnt forget it :) , I just didnt mentioned it but you are right, that 10% extra should not be underestimated. However, for me I dont think its worth those extra hardpoints anyway.

I have to ask (again sort of), why would any assassin choose to put a total of 40 points into venom and fade? Because if you are planning to use either of those, treachery is not far away (no one can say that a lem is hard to get or find for those who play untwinked). Or is it only for untwinked players who are afraid of never to find the required runes/armor needed? Or is it so that another armor (enigma or what?) is so much better that it is worth those hardpoints in those two skills. So the question is basically, when is it ever worth maxing fade and/or venom? Or is it just because of those x extra % res all and dmg reduction from a slightly higher lvl of fade? If so, why ever venom then?

Help me out here plz, im out in the dark on this one.

[Akimbo]

I don't think it'd really ever be done. If you can afford the gear to get them to level 40, you can probably afford a Last Wish. It was just a hypothetical point, to show that there is worth in putting hard points into Fade.

For me it goes like this:

If you can afford Last Wish: No need for more than 1 point in fade. ( Or any )

If you can't afford Last Wish: Might be worth investing into fade.

Treachery is a choice yes, but I can see a few reasons people wouldn't use it:

Can't be bothered to wait for it to proc.
Want to wear other armour and can't be bothered to wait for it to proc, then switch it out for different armour.
Are really poor and can't even afford Lem :P

[Shanksie1337]

My 2c
I could afford LW, but decided against it, went for a Death PB instead & Draculs.

I'm keeping fade at 1 base, i can cast at slvl 11 (+56%) on switch which more than suits my needs when coupled with CoH and SS & Guilaumes (both Um'd). Needless to say i use BoS whereever possible, tho it's also still at lvl 1.

I've maxxed SM to test, as i've already resigned myself to reroll this char as i forgot about the -20 req in the Death, so the 136 dex i have is going to annoy me too much as i'm not going for max block. The SM is both a blessing and a curse, sometimes she's good, sometimes she's bad, and most of the time she's about 4 screens behind me due to BoS.

Currently
18 DTalon i think (24 with gear anyways)
20 DSentry
20 SMaster
3 Fire Blast
1 point in most things
remaining few points in LSentry simply to boost DSentry as i'm too lazy to bother lay both kinds of traps.

After the reroll i think i'm going to put 3 more in Fblast, keep SM at base and use her more as a zon uses decoy, as opposed to how they use Valk. I'm also going to add more to BoS so i don't have to cast it as often (again because i'm lazy and i'm going to have lots of points spare). I might also put a few more into Fade, again just because i've got more spare points this time.

I'm only using 2 Bartucs on prebuff switch. I might shop anya for 2*+3SM claws and i've got a +3 SM amulet i don't bother prebuff with (but as i'm using Highlords currently it'd only be a net gain of 2). However i think i'm going to replace the highlords after the reroll as it seems to me that i'm not getting much out of the neck slot, maybe a Maras / Metalgrid.

AR seems ok for most things, tho i do swap to angelic combo when needed.

[adujar]

Akimo:

"Can't be bothered to wait for it to proc."

You mean that people actually spend ~15 hard points into fade because of that?

"Want to wear other armour and can't be bothered to wait for it to proc, then switch it out for different armour."

Ok, but which armor is so much better than treachery for an assa (considering giving up on all those hard points)?

"Are really poor and can't even afford Lem :P"

Ok, there is a reason I cannot argue against.

[adujar]

...After the reroll i think i'm going to put 3 more in Fblast, keep SM at base and use her more as a zon uses decoy, as opposed to how they use Valk. I'm also going to add more to BoS so i don't have to cast it as often (again because i'm lazy and i'm going to have lots of points spare). I might also put a few more into Fade, again just because i've got more spare points this time...

How come you are not putting those spare points in Venom for additional kicking dmg?

[Akimbo]

Akimo:

"Can't be bothered to wait for it to proc."

You mean that people actually spend ~15 hard points into fade because of that?

"Want to wear other armour and can't be bothered to wait for it to proc, then switch it out for different armour."

Ok, but which armor is so much better than treachery for an assa (considering giving up on all those hard points)?

"Are really poor and can't even afford Lem :P"

Ok, there is a reason I cannot argue against.

1) No idea.
2) Anything? If I wasn't going to use last wish, I'd probably use forti armour anyway, maybe CoH and I know for sure I'd never bother with Treachery. In fact because of that I'd consider points into fade, since I have them to spare with this build.
3) Just incase: This isn't just for ubers, if I was ubering of course I'd see prebuffing as useful, general pvm I wouldn't bother.

[mephiztophelez]

Why max death sentry? The only reason to use it over lightning sentry is the corpse explosion. As far as I know the CE effect is the same whether your sentry is level 1 or level 20.
more points increases the radius of the Corpse Explosion.

bigger radius = more things get hit by each popping corpse = radically and vastly increased damage output.

p.p.s. In the Thingy Monk Guide, someone said Grief +3xx damage DOES work with kicks, it just gets tagged on the end, not worked into the equation for damage. Can anyone confirm this?
i can confirm that whoever said that has no idea what they are talking about.

grief +damage does NOT get added to kicks. if it did (and i wish it did), PvP Kick'sins would be staggeringly awesome (huge +damage AND -25% target poison res for extra venom godlyness? yes please).

Actually I didnt forget it :) , I just didnt mentioned it but you are right, that 10% extra should not be underestimated. However, for me I dont think its worth those extra hardpoints anyway.

I have to ask (again sort of), why would any assassin choose to put a total of 40 points into venom and fade? Because if you are planning to use either of those, treachery is not far away (no one can say that a lem is hard to get or find for those who play untwinked). Or is it only for untwinked players who are afraid of never to find the required runes/armor needed? Or is it so that another armor (enigma or what?) is so much better that it is worth those hardpoints in those two skills. So the question is basically, when is it ever worth maxing fade and/or venom? Or is it just because of those x extra % res all and dmg reduction from a slightly higher lvl of fade? If so, why ever venom then?

Help me out here plz, im out in the dark on this one.
maxing Venom and Fade is a PvP build thingy.

PvM'sins can get by happily with a base point in each.
I know for sure I'd never bother with Treachery.
+2 'sin skills, awesome IAS and 30 "free" skillpoints for Venom and Fade? all for the huge cost of a Lem rune?

why wouldn't you use it?

i use it on my PvM illkori'sin (kick/trapper, flashdancer, call it what you will) and i can say with confidence it's an AWESOME pvm armour. i simply cannot think of a better one for the build.

[fatalfury]

Hi, got another couple of questions. I guess everyone seems to be agreeing that last wish is the weapon of choice here so I'm gonna go with that when I can. Anyways, just a couple of quick questions

How do you take care of your mana problems? I mean 6 mana per dtalon seems a lot when my sin only has like 200ish mana and putting mana drain anywhere kinda neuters the build. I use carrion wind, raven, mara's. love the procing effects, for now I just chunk the occasional mana potion. But I wanted to hear some opinions.

And btw does the 1% dmg reduction per level for fade come from hard point or would + skills increase it?

And anyone got a good dtalon speed calculator. The diablo3.ingame site does not have dtalon :(

[stephan]

Hi, got another couple of questions. I guess everyone seems to be agreeing that last wish is the weapon of choice here so I'm gonna go with that when I can. Anyways, just a couple of quick questions
I disagree. Stormlash >> Last Wish.

How do you take care of your mana problems? I mean 6 mana per dtalon seems a lot when my sin only has like 200ish mana and putting mana drain anywhere kinda neuters the build. I use carrion wind, raven, mara's. love the procing effects, for now I just chunk the occasional mana potion. But I wanted to hear some opinions.
How about mana leech on a second ring somewhere? I know it sounds crazy, but it just might do the trick. ;-)

(Ideally, ditch carrion for a dual leech ring)

And btw does the 1% dmg reduction per level for fade come from hard point or would + skills increase it?
+skills work with it.

And anyone got a good dtalon speed calculator. The diablo3.ingame site does not have dtalon :(
Use the Titanseal calc. http://diablo3.ingame.de/tips/calcs/speedcalc_titanseal/speedcalc_english.php

[fatalfury]

I disagree. Stormlash >> Last Wish.


How about mana leech on a second ring somewhere? I know it sounds crazy, but it just might do the trick. ;-)

(Ideally, ditch carrion for a dual leech ring)


+skills work with it.


Use the Titanseal calc. http://diablo3.ingame.de/tips/calcs/speedcalc_titanseal/speedcalc_english.php

Thanks for the quick reply, dig the calculator. Stormlash because of the aoe static field effect? Hmm I wanted a stormlash but it seems no one darn sells it! Interesting procs on the stormlash though, Tornado and static field.

Btw, hope I'm not being too inqusitive but are there any other procing effects that are interesting with a sin? I like being flashy :D And is there a ball park AR I need to have to hit the ubers consistently?

[SeCKSEgai]

Stormlash or LW will work in uberland assuming you have the proper gear - it's more popular in the kicker crowd because of the aoe effect in general pvm. The nado damage is insignificant, at least when you consider boss life and their damage reduction.

The unpleasantness of a kicker is your AR dependency but even significant boosts only go so far - I was fine at around 10k, and all of my 90+ runs, a number of them experimenting with different gear setups. Additional ar helps, but its minor when you take account the math.

[renegademaster]

I have to agree Stormlash & Draculs > Last Wish

Flesh Ripper is supposed to be great for Ubering, its the slow factor.

I also tried Treachery, whilst initially appealing, i found there are much better armours for kickers. I ended up with Chains of Honour & Storm shield, so i could use Burst of Speed instead of Fade. I reach 15+ skills with equipment and 1 hard point anyway.

As for Venom, it can add extra punch if you need it. % bonuse to poison damage items are applied twice, once you can see and again in melee combat. Bramble and Trang Claws for instance...

[Damric]

Of the kickers I made over the years, these are my favorite gear:

Weapon

1). Azurewraith. Yeah I like it. It rocks. My favorite talon weapon.
2). Stormlash. Closely comes in 2nd for me to Azure. Depends on if I want 100% crushing blow or the sanctuary and magic damage. The static field is pretty lame and useless to me.
3). beast caddy. beast is just has so many good things for a kicker.
4). Rift. Fun times. can make use of 1 point blade shield for more shiney stuff.
5). Honorable mentions are crescent moon phaseblade, djinn slayer, frostwind, lightsabre, and firelizards. Budget kicker items ;) Notice even these lowly items beat out last wish.

Armor

1). Duress. Yes, I like all the cb/ow, and cold damage. For me this beats fort.
2). Fortitude. Can't deny it is awesome.
3). Chains of Honor.
4). Honorable mention is Leviathan because it's pretty awesome green and +strength and damage reduction and it's green!!! Treachery is great if you are making a hybrid and want to save skill points in venom and fade.

Helm

1). Guillame's Face. They were originally going to name this item Chuck Norris' Face.
2). Dream. The aura adds some good damage to kicks.
3). Vampire Gaze -> If you wear Leviathan then you might as well go all green.

Shield.

1). Tiamat's Rebuke (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/tiamatsca3.jpg/). Yes my favorite. Eat it wussies!
2). Whinstan's Guard. For when I do max block build, whuch I don't do anymore because I like Tiamat's.
2). Stormshield. It works. Period.
3). Phoenix. It works ok. Not as useful as any of the above though.

Belt

1). String of Ears
2). Thundergod's Vigor

Boots

1). Gorerider Up'd
2). Goblins double up'd.

Gloves

1). +2 Martial Arts 10% crushing blow Blood Gloves (http://img176.imageshack.us/i/stormfingerbloodglovesji8.jpg/)
2). LoH
3). Ghoulhide
* No Dracul's? I use Cloak of Shadows not Lifetap.

Amulet

1). Metalgrid
2). Cat's Eye
3). Angellic's

Ring to go with Ravenfrost.

1). Carrion Wind
2). Nice Rare or Crafted Attack rate +leech ring.
3). Angellic.

Charms -Full inventory of very high elemental damage small charms.

Merc- Might merc with infinity.