View Full Version : Auction Houses - No thank you.
commonhumans
28-06-2009, 17:23
I've seen a lot of chat around the forums about people wanting auction houses.
WHY?
That tears at the core of what Diablo is. Trading within Diablo is love/hate relationship and you all know it. Adding in an auction house would take all of that away.
As annoying as it is, I love making a game saying what a need and hoping people show up that have SOMETHING that you can use, its like a giant shopping spree. On an auction house you take out all of the surprise because you have this item and then the only way you are going to trade it is if someone else has X gold or X item or X whatever. I mean i suppose you could set it up to where people could leave you offers and you can leave a wish list... but with person to person trading you can see multiple offers up front and then you get instant gratification.
And I mean where would this auction house go? Would it be in the chat lobby? Or in your first town? Last town? Hell mode only? It just doesn't fit to me. I just think that putting an auction house in will make trading to easy and then like in World of Warcraft now EVERY Joe Schmoe will be able to have the best gear with really having to work at it. I just don't want to lose what i think one of the best parts of D2 is... the trading. Its a way to see new things and meet new people.
If an auction house shows up in D3 its going to be a MAJOR turn off for me. I don't think it will stop me from playing but it will surely kill the replay value for me. I know it.
Risingred
28-06-2009, 17:55
For me, in FF Online and in WoW, I had the most fun in the auction house. Easily.
The auction house is a great tool to add value to gold, or whatever a set currency would be. It doesn't kill trading. Even in WoW, you'll see straight-up trades, even during dungeon runs and stuff.
It's intuitive. It doesn't require just sitting around doing nothing but waiting. You don't have to be at the computer to use it.
So every joe shmoe will have the best gear without having to work for it? Then how the heck are they getting "money" for it? Do they just get handed money to buy things in the auction house?
You most certainly do not get instant gratification using the trade system in D2. Quite the opposite, especially later in your character's life when you're looking for something specific. At an AH, you can just browse for it. If someone has it, and they aren't in lobby, you obviously won't get a reply from them. And then you may not have something they want anyway. We need a set currency. That's why HR are traded.
I don't know how they would do it. They actually don't seem to be too keen on the idea, if one of those blizzcast things from JW were any indication, but this is the highest on my list of wishes for D3. It's just plain fun. It's great for me, because I like playing a set market, taking advantage of good times to sell items, good times to buy them, finding that kind of pattern and making tons of money in the game. :D
I suppose it could be in the lobby. I don't see why it would have to be in the game or why it would need a pre-requisite. You either have money or you don't, know what I mean?
Trading will never die, and an AH wouldn't kill it. I have yet to see any kind of remotely valid arguement against it, and you even admit that the trading in D2 was annoying.
If an auction house doesn't show up in D3 it's going to be a turn-off for me, the opposite of you. However, it would definitely not stop me from playing and would not kill replay value.
I don't care if they make the weapons out of rainbows and sunshine and it takes place in candy land. I would still be slapping down money on a pre-order and waiting impatiently as I am now.
satheron
28-06-2009, 17:57
Your description of the old trading system in diablo 2 seems kinda romanticized and it really is hiding the true nature of what, and how the trading system really was.
When I play today trading can be really bothersome, I have something that everyone tells me is worth 2 high runes. Whatever the value of a high rune is. I go to trade by making a game, and sitting in it for 2 hours waiting for someone to come.
99% of everyone that does enter leaves instantly upon an offer they don't like, they don't question it. They don't haggle like they have the freedom to..they just say "bye". *So and so has left the game diablo's minions become weaker.*
So something everyone tells me is worth 2 high runes I give up and trade for 1, because the biggest haggle return I get is "Not worth, bye." and if they even say that much its pretty amazing.
Then when I go to use high runes to buy the same item, people want 2..even upwards of 3. When I put in just one, the same offer that everyone else would only except when I was on the other side of the trade. I get the same *exit game* response.
Yes it is a fun system, if someone wants to trade x item for y item there should be an easy method to do it. There isn't any reason why a game whose core foundation is the items you can trade should have only ONE trading method.. Really the more methods blizzard provides us the better..
be it free trading like in d2....an auction house...player set up shops like in some online rpgs..
Unless of course your against a free market economy then I understand your desire to suppress trading.
paperkut
28-06-2009, 18:08
I know that when some people said they wanted an 'auction house' they were simply giving a name to an alternative game mode with no combat and increased number of players allowed to join. Especially now that the number of players per game is going to decrease, this would allow more person to person interaction rather than less.
Risingred
28-06-2009, 18:25
this would allow more person to person interaction rather than less.
So, as the poster above described, you consider dropping out of a game without saying anything when you don't like an offer a "person to person interaction"?
As for precisely what I mean when I say auction house, I mean a system similar to this:
WoW: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/blackbard/ah-big.jpg
WHO: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/blackbard/warahkn1.jpg
We even had one in UO. Player-made. We wanted a system like this very badly, but we settled for having actual auctions:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/blackbard/NewBECAuctionHouse.jpg
paperkut
28-06-2009, 19:16
So, as the poster above described, you consider dropping out of a game without saying anything when you don't like an offer a "person to person interaction"?
You're right. They should have to write you a kind paragraph explaining why they don't want to accept your offer and then they can leave. haha, only kidding. I'm just saying more people in the game means more chances to haggle before the game fills up and your stuck with 5 annoying noobs asking for free stuff and a bot advertising some 'amazing' sale.
I like the WOW and WHO auction ideas a lot. I would love to see something like this in D3. It'd make life easier for sellers and buyers. As for the UO setting up shops....If they were included WITH the other type you mentioned it'd be ok. But I don't like the idea of having to go shop to shop looking for a specific item. I don't even like going to malls in real life. I've never played any of these games so if I'm misunderstanding how they work exactly I apologize.
I would be in favor of any kind of automated trading system that allowed one to trade, while killing monsters or even being offline. I think "power traders" will be unhappy with an auction house, because having one will drive down their profits, but who cares! :whistling:
Agreed. Defeats the purpose of a hacknslash rpg when you have an auction house. I can see maybe a person inventory store like Aion and FFXI has(which they call a bazaar) where you can sell itms from within your own inventory. I find it much more fun to find my own loot rather than have someone do it for me and buy it off an auction house.
Risingred
28-06-2009, 22:22
Agreed. Defeats the purpose of a hacknslash rpg when you have an auction house. I can see maybe a person inventory store like Aion and FFXI has(which they call a bazaar)
I think I remember how the bazaar functioned...it was basically an auction house that you could open up anywhere. That was nice. The interface for it could have been better, though.
I don't see how you can differentiate this from an auction house. It is the same exact function.
I find it much more fun to find my own loot rather than have someone do it for me and buy it off an auction house.
So you first say that an auction house of some sort is okay but then you say it isn't.
As for the UO setting up shops....If they were included WITH the other type you mentioned it'd be ok. But I don't like the idea of having to go shop to shop looking for a specific item.
It was different in UO. That kind of thing would not be transferrable to a non-MMO. In UO, you had player housing where you could buy plans for a house and plop it down somewhere in the gameworld and run vendors from the house if you wanted to. The world was persistent instead of instanced like D3 so it wouldn't work. I thought it was neat though, you'd have entire player-made cities based around PVP and trading.
So for those of you who don't want an AH in D3: What kind of improvements to the trading system would you suggest?
BigKevSexyMan
28-06-2009, 22:25
Damn you ThomasJ. I was gonna suggest something like that......but I do have some add-ons to the bazaar idea.
First thing, instead of displaying items for X gold, just display this item for trade. That way you can still keep the offers interesting and "like a shopping spree."
Second, allow players to search through everyone's bazaar through a database. Even if they're not online and you want the "Daggar of Eternal Fire," you can message them that you want to trade for that item and present your own bazaar, and hope you have something s/he wants.
I'd much rather have a bazaar rather than an auction house. Bazaar is much truer to D2, but still makes way for the ease of access that an AH has.
AH and item deliveries by "email" in game. Yeah! I want to play the game not waste my time haggling. (Not that much haggling occurs as mentioned before.)
BigKevSexyMan
29-06-2009, 07:18
Well, you have to remember that duping has pretty much destroyed the real d2 market. Hopefully d3 won't have any duping bugs in it.
Does anyone remember how the market was in d2 before duping began?
Well, you have to remember that duping has pretty much destroyed the real d2 market. Hopefully d3 won't have any duping bugs in it.
While I agree, I can't really say it "destroyed" the D2 market. Blizz is fully aware of dupes, and yet they went right ahead and encouraged it with the ridiculous patch 1.10 runewords. Does anyone really believe that more than a handful of people would have these w/o duping? Why even entice users with the runewords in the first place?
I mean, not to get totally X-files here about conspiracy theories, but it is a strange game that Blizzard is playing here.
Kiroptus
29-06-2009, 08:50
Nah, all conspiracy teories about blizzard being in charge of the dupes sites to earn money from it never really made any sense unless blizzard is extremely kleptomaniac as the money generated by that act is really really small compared to what the resources that they have.
The 1.10 runewords and "SOJs sold to merchants" thing are just bad decisions applied to Diablo 2. Just like a lot of their decisions.
+1 for having Auction Houses
WNxZerker
29-06-2009, 10:51
Auction houses, yes, and no.
Trade houses yes.
someone comes up to the trade vendor and says, I want to put this up for trade, please show this to everyone who comes through here, and tell me what they would like to swap for it.
you hand over your item and anyone can look through the storehouse and see whats on offer, when they find something they like they offer an item or collection of items (like 40 pgems for your pul) and at the end of the viewing period you say yes or no to the trades offered to you.
it's just like the current trade games, "Show", "WuW?" "these for it?" "ok" except you don't have to wait around and you can ignore low offers without being rude, and can take the highest bid without having to track the bidder down (Afk bid games)
it's a blind auction for items, no gold involved and you had to work for the items your trading just like the one selling them.
and best thing, you can still work your profit margins.
The actual trade channels could be replaced with a billboard,you have a character(letter,number) limit and put up your trade and while ever your logged on it will stay there this would both replace the channel spamming and the making of games to attract a buyer.I think this would be more realistic than an auction house(Im pro auction house but I just dont see it happening).
Risingred
29-06-2009, 12:17
Does anyone remember how the market was in d2 before duping began?
IIRC, pgems were the currency of choice.
AH and item deliveries by "email" in game. Yeah! I want to play the game not waste my time haggling. (Not that much haggling occurs as mentioned before.)This. It is also true that D3 is not a MMORPG like WoW but quite honestly I think that having a good AH system could really be refreshing. To me, trading almost never was fun, even if I could pull off a very good trade (either the buyer had ISTs/HRs to burn or was in a hurry).
I am generally happy with whatever method decreases the time I spend on the game not playing. AH is one (and as I stated in another thread, Blizzard knows how to implement an AH) - to be seen if other methods will suit the game better.
Back to lurk
I never considered online trading to be anything but an aggravating experience. The worst experience was always the "WUG" reply when someone had an item you wanted. They are of course not actually asking you what you have, but more precisely what insane item(s) are you willing to offer for their worthless junk.
But, the absolute worst scenario is wasting time away waiting around, only to have someone come in to YOUR trade game to steal away a trade. After a while I realized there are people that will simply never make their own trade game, but rather rely on going in to another person's game to take away their buyer. I even made a game limiting for 4 people, and managed to get 4 schmucks in all trading the same item I was trying to trade.
If I never have to do another online trade, I will be happy as hell. In fact even here can be aggravating when someone lists items with no idea what they want in return. I know many seem to think this is exactly what this game should be, but is it really? I thought the ability to trade items was merely a sub-feature of the game. I thought the point of this was a hack-n-slash your way to Hell game where you pick up items along the way to use. Anything that will take me away from dealing with idiot online trades is a certain +1 for me.
If I never have to do another online trade, I will be happy as hell. In fact even here can be aggravating when someone lists items with no idea what they want in return. I know many seem to think this is exactly what this game should be, but is it really? I thought the ability to trade items was merely a sub-feature of the game. I thought the point of this was a hack-n-slash your way to Hell game where you pick up items along the way to use. Anything that will take me away from dealing with idiot online trades is a certain +1 for me.
Yeah I know right? There's a reason this forum (and others) are necessary to streamline trades. Blizz laid a big ****ing egg when it comes to that. Heck, maybe they're working on testing a trading system for 1.13? I wish :(
But yeah, apart from easy, straight trades (light skiller for HR, Um for WF), you will waste dozens of hours looking for the elusive player who has an equal ISO/FT opposite to your needs.
Let me see if I can explain clearly what I'd personally like.
An in-game window that you can bring up anytime you're in town, and in this window are two frames. The first frame would have slots for the items you're putting up for trade, with a 500-character text window where you can describe what you're looking for. The second frame would have a searchable, tabbed list of every other current online user that has the Trade Window up.
At this point, you can either search directly for the item you want, browse other users' goods, or wait for someone to contact you. At any point, you can initiate contact with a user and bring up a chat window to discuss trades with them. Much like the DII trade window, you can see eachother's 'trade inventories' and decide on a deal you want to make. When a deal has been reached, you both hit Confirm, and automatically make the trade.
Whenever you close the Trade Window, your 'auction' ceases and your items go back into your inventory. So it definitely isn't a WoW-inspired "hands-off" approach.
This keeps the bartering system a la Diablo II, but completely eliminates the need for "Trade Games", spamming, and running around trying to click on avatars -- all the negatives, I believe. It's also speedy enough to where the bartering system wouldn't be as much of a hindrance to newbies ; a quick look around and they could see what people want for what they have.
Whatcha think?
Risingred
30-06-2009, 01:42
Whatcha think?
I think that the first time a chat window popped up while I was fighting a boss would be the last time I used that system.
I like not having to talk to people I'm trading with. I've been spoiled over time by newer games that don't require me to answer the "question" wug/wuw. If I never read that initialization again...
I am thinking about the straight-trade interfaces that have been proposed in this thread and it just seems amazingly convoluted to me.
I've seen a lot of chat around the forums about people wanting auction houses.
WHY?
That tears at the core of what Diablo is. Trading within Diablo is love/hate relationship and you all know it. Adding in an auction house would take all of that away.
As annoying as it is, I love making a game saying what a need and hoping people show up that have SOMETHING that you can use, its like a giant shopping spree. On an auction house you take out all of the surprise because you have this item and then the only way you are going to trade it is if someone else has X gold or X item or X whatever. I mean i suppose you could set it up to where people could leave you offers and you can leave a wish list... but with person to person trading you can see multiple offers up front and then you get instant gratification.
And I mean where would this auction house go? Would it be in the chat lobby? Or in your first town? Last town? Hell mode only? It just doesn't fit to me. I just think that putting an auction house in will make trading to easy and then like in World of Warcraft now EVERY Joe Schmoe will be able to have the best gear with really having to work at it. I just don't want to lose what i think one of the best parts of D2 is... the trading. Its a way to see new things and meet new people.
If an auction house shows up in D3 its going to be a MAJOR turn off for me. I don't think it will stop me from playing but it will surely kill the replay value for me. I know it.
Naah man, I get where you're coming from. The only reason D2 didn't have an auction house or trading-center is because it was old as ****, 1990's weren't nice to Blizzard.
I'm all for the auction house, but you're right Blizzard should try their best to incorporate as much face-to-face trades. I suggest in Caldeum there is a trading center where it shows in real time all the people who are willing to trade items (in a smaller more discreet form, maybe a portrait, or as an NPC sitting at a table, who knows), then you can click on one of them and open a conversation with that person. It will look a lot like how dialogue/interaction with NPC's in D3 used to be shown, with both players on screen, facing eachother and a set background (think back to the gameplay trailer where the Barbarian talks to Deckard Cain). Then the items can be traded in between, you get to see what the person you're trading with looks like. There should be a way to show more than just two people on screen, so if 4 other people join the conversation then all 6 character's actual avatar will be shown standing amongst eachother trading/talking.
Or you could just make a game... and wait for fish to bite. Just an idea ;)
Auction houses are a big plus. They make trading mainstream, help keep prices in check by making supply more immediately and readily available, and they save players alot of grief related to sitting in spammed trade channels rather than playing the game.
Also, dealing with traders directly is often a less than pleasant experience. The general tone of D2 trading was hostile, with everyone trying to rip off everyone else, when it wasnt outright scams. The auction house never "lol, fu n00b" at you when you don't know the going rates.
And finally, auction house mechanics are a boon from the game maker's point of view, which can then easily track volumes and prices, and also slap virtual in-game-gold "fees" on trades to help create a viable economy.
The person most likely to really lose anything with auction houses is not the dedicated legitimate trader - nothing could help them more - but rather the kind of power player who thrived most in a spam/dupe/bully/scam environment.
I just find my own stuff. And when I find something better than what I'm currently using I would either sell my old stuff for gold or give it to a rookie(if I'm in a good mood).
I have this really powerful sword with my name on it. Maybe one day when I stop playing Diablo 2, I'll give it to a worthy warrior, so that way my legacy will live on.
Auction houses are a big plus. They make trading mainstream, help keep prices in check by making supply more immediately and readily available, and they save players alot of grief related to sitting in spammed trade channels rather than playing the game.
Also, dealing with traders directly is often a less than pleasant experience. The general tone of D2 trading was hostile, with everyone trying to rip off everyone else, when it wasnt outright scams. The auction house never "lol, fu n00b" at you when you don't know the going rates.
And finally, auction house mechanics are a boon from the game maker's point of view, which can then easily track volumes and prices, and also slap virtual in-game-gold "fees" on trades to help create a viable economy.
The person most likely to really lose anything with auction houses is not the dedicated legitimate trader - nothing could help them more - but rather the kind of power player who thrived most in a spam/dupe/bully/scam environment.
Firstly an Auction House can't even work with d3 due to the fact it isn't an MMO. So you guys should really just take that out of being in there. Also by saying you want an AH means you want "gold" or "money" to be the currency, that is not going to happen most likely as the old or a better version of the old "MF" system will probably be in d3. You are all looking at this through an MMO perspective, raiding is non existent in d3 which gives you alot more free time, this is where you trade / duel / level (because god knows that diablo is not a game where if you quest to max level your going to be really bored, a nice thing in Diablo was taking forever to hit the "max lvl" because it always gave you something you could do, but there was never a huge difference between a lvl 91 and a lvl 99 "no items they could wear lvl 91 couldn't, only some more skill point and stats")
Back on topic, Auction House = Currency of gold or coin etc, D3 i don't believe is going to be that, it was one of the unique things about diablo that is probably going to stay. It simply doesn't make sense to buy items with coins in a non MMO.
Now I havn't a clue what the currency might be, but for instance SoJ was the first currency and a good one(till dupes). so if something like that exists maybe they could have a few games that are always up called like Tradeing#1-5 , and in those games theres a NPC in the middle where you can put an item in it and have it sell for whatever the currency is going to be as far as an item goes (like SoJ). This idea is still far fetched tho due to it isn't an MMO and the idea of these trading channels being up 24/7 without possible crash where the items in it are lost. or how you go about getting what sold is hard to do.
So now your like well why don't they just use coins if there going to use an SoJ as a currency. Well thats the point of mf type runs, finding items to trade for currency. Coin currency gets inflated easier, and is stupid for the currency to be something every mob drops.
It's also easier to dupe coins/gold than it is items due to item ID #'s.
I would be in favor of any kind of automated trading system that allowed one to trade, while killing monsters or even being offline. I think "power traders" will be unhappy with an auction house, because having one will drive down their profits, but who cares! :whistling:
Actually with auction house system you can make a lot of profit if you know what your doing. Some people in WoW make thousands of gold in a day when they invest their money for cheap stuff and sell them slightly higher. I think power traders could actually love this kind of feature.
Also predicting what items are going to be hot tomorrow and buying them cheap today and selling very high tomorrow is nice way to earn money and play with the market.
Frittmar
30-06-2009, 12:11
Something like the WoW mailbox system could be interesting, too. You could trade with Cash on delivery
Something like the WoW mailbox system could be interesting, too. You could trade with Cash on delivery
I don't think that 90% of the people on this forum don't quite yet understand, Diablo 3 is not an MMORPG. just an RPG. The "World Map" on there website is perhaps a little misleading. You guys think your all in this world at the same time or something when you ARNT. It's the same as it was before where you can make a game, see games and join. max players being 8 or less(don't remember the # for d3 but its the same or less). So therefor if you leave the game and everyone does the game does get taken down, information erased. There is not "shared" information between all these games that are made so things like a mailbox system that you can trade with is out of the question. It could exist to where b.net 2.0 has a intelligent bot that you can use it to send a msg to someone right when they log on and that can be mail. But transfering of anything between people through any external thing is simply not happening. This is also why there is not going to be an "Auction House" (unless maybe they have a game thats up 24/7 like a trading channel that allows infinite people to join and is made to where if it goes down you don't loose everything in the auction house), and even in that case the idea if far fetched. Due to the fact it isn't an MMORPG but just an RPG and not a main world, i hope to god that they focus on the PvP aspect because theres no such things as "Late Game PvE" in these types of games(at least not in a WoW sense). Hopefully no pvp rewards that is fail also. Unfortunately if the people from WoW are the ones really doing D3 that sucks because that means they are going to follow what they thought of D2 (which was they wanted it to be a CO-OP type of RPG that was ment for PvE and they didn't really focus on PvP) Thus they think everyone wants PvE instances blahblah when also D3 as we know isn't going to have healers etc, there isn't going to be much strategy put into the boss encounters that exist because it simply isn't how non MMO games play out. And also if they make it so you get max levels from quests that ridiculously stupid, you will be bored as **** if you can't just every now and then be like "I feel like leveling on my main guy and not working on another alt" Like in D2 where lvl 1-90 was easy but after 90 it started to take forever, so people didn't care much about really going past lvl 85, thankfully there wasn't much need other than a small advantage as far as stats/skill points go, no items you could use past then went and made it overpowerful to be lvl 99. It was just a small edge. So hopefully D3 also does not have you hit max lvl, hopefully there is not items that are amazing lvl 100 compared to being lvl 90. (Thus assuming lvl 100 is max lvl just as a random # generation to be easily projected) but those 10 levels simply gives you a small advantage at the fact you get some stats / skill points.
SO STOP TRYING TO BE LIKE I WANT THIS IN D3 WHEN IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS DONE IN THIS KIND OF SETTING OF A GAME. ITS ONE OF THE MAIN THINGS THAT SEPARATES THESE TYPES OF GAMES.
Nextt: While Diablo games will have a limited number of players (5 ?), there could be an auction house tool application for BNet2 servers. Afterall BNet server see all of the user accounts and characters, it only can't set a game for all of them...
I also don't see a reason why messaging through BNet should be such a problem. I know for example that XFire worked in Titan's Quest which is a similar to D2.
Lol I guess it's clear you don't want this. Just don't be surprised when other alternative forms of trading rise up to fill that void, just the way they have for D2. Bottom line the issue is control. Does Blizzard want to be in control, or if they want a 3rd party to be in control?
I think Blizzard would have to be downright foolish to give up that by not offering a superior solution over 3rd parties.
Starving_Poet
30-06-2009, 17:58
How about instead of an 'auction house' we call it a market.
That will make everyone feel better. If you want to play a game that EXISTS because of a market, it's EVE. That game should be the model for ALL game trading models.
Funkopotamus
30-06-2009, 18:43
I like to call it a bazaar. It makes it sound exotic.
I don't see what the big deal is. You don't have to trade for money. You can put your stuff up for trade and allow item offers. Due to the game being instanced I doubt it'll be like Everquest where you sit your character in in the bazaar, turning him into a vendor npc.
SO STOP TRYING TO BE LIKE I WANT THIS IN D3 WHEN IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS DONE IN THIS KIND OF SETTING OF A GAME. ITS ONE OF THE MAIN THINGS THAT SEPARATES THESE TYPES OF GAMES.
Get over yourself. Whether or not d3 is an "MMO" or not does not really have any bearing on whether or not it could include an auction house. Even if the rest of the game isn't persistent, they could still easily introduce some sort of in game auction house or market / npc that can broker items for you.
Aside from that, apparently you haven't been keeping up with the game, but last we heard the plan was to make currency valuable. And if currency is valuable there is nothing else to stop an auction house from operating properly.
You also need to learn how to use the enter key.
All this "anti auction house" nonsense is just another example of people taking something that was a flaw in D2 (the trading system) and romanticizing it as part of the "mystique" of D2.
No one does trades how people here are describing, and there might very well be some other hinderance to the "make a game and wait" method of trading (for example, a limited number of "public" games, or perhaps no "public" games to join.) That's why jsp is so damn popular, (and why trading on the forums is preferable.) because people don't like to sit around and shout WUW WUG at each other. It interrupts the continuity of the game, which is something they have repeated they really wanted to not do. Blizz said they want this game to be visceral, not something that's interrupted every 5 minutes for some menial nonsense.
Let me sell items and play (I.E. kill monsters) at the same time and I'm happy with that system, whether you call it a market, an AH, a bazaar, or a swap meet, I don't care. But that much is critical to a functioning in game economy, well that and currency valuation.
Risingred
30-06-2009, 19:52
Nextt, you may want to consider actually, y'know, reading about what's going on in Diablo 3 instead of assuming that you'll get your updated Diablo 2.
They've already stated that they're looking at the trade system and considered an in-game mailing system. Just because it isn't an MMO doesn't mean that it can't have these things, including in-game mail (which would be kind of weird in D3 tbh), an auction house, a bazaar, a trade market, etc.
It's instanced but everything is still on the same server. There is no technical limitation here.
How about we call it the Mall or even better, DiabloMart! Yea!
I've seen a lot of chat around the forums about people wanting auction houses.
WHY?
That tears at the core of what Diablo is. Trading within Diablo is love/hate relationship and you all know it. Adding in an auction house would take all of that away.
As annoying as it is, I love making a game saying what a need and hoping people show up that have SOMETHING that you can use, its like a giant shopping spree. On an auction house you take out all of the surprise because you have this item and then the only way you are going to trade it is if someone else has X gold or X item or X whatever. I mean i suppose you could set it up to where people could leave you offers and you can leave a wish list... but with person to person trading you can see multiple offers up front and then you get instant gratification.
And I mean where would this auction house go? Would it be in the chat lobby? Or in your first town? Last town? Hell mode only? It just doesn't fit to me. I just think that putting an auction house in will make trading to easy and then like in World of Warcraft now EVERY Joe Schmoe will be able to have the best gear with really having to work at it. I just don't want to lose what i think one of the best parts of D2 is... the trading. Its a way to see new things and meet new people.
If an auction house shows up in D3 its going to be a MAJOR turn off for me. I don't think it will stop me from playing but it will surely kill the replay value for me. I know it.
There's just something unsexy in looking at windows and seeing a pricetag and thinking, oh WoW, if I grind X amount of hours I can afford Y.
+ those people who claim their right and are much righteous on forums and who you really don't want in your game will buy the gold and go around thinking they will be your new best friend.
I, for one, have recognised this: What gave diablo II staying power was a whole lot of unintentional gameplay.
Fix them and serve just another playstation 3 game.
Risingred
01-07-2009, 02:37
There's just something unsexy in looking at windows and seeing a pricetag and thinking, oh WoW, if I grind X amount of hours I can afford Y.
Or, uh, y'know, sell something.
+ those people who claim their right and are much righteous on forums and who you really don't want in your game will buy the gold and go around thinking they will be your new best friend.
I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.
I, for one, have recognised this: What gave diablo II staying power was a whole lot of unintentional gameplay.
(See how I didn't double-post there to reply?)
Unintentional gameplay? What was unintentional? Duping? Maphack/pickit? TPPK? Is that what you mean? I doubt they'd be in Diablo 3 so I don't know if this game caters to your needs.
I think that the first time a chat window popped up while I was fighting a boss would be the last time I used that system.
I like not having to talk to people I'm trading with. I've been spoiled over time by newer games that don't require me to answer the "question" wug/wuw. If I never read that initialization again...
I am thinking about the straight-trade interfaces that have been proposed in this thread and it just seems amazingly convoluted to me.
Re-read, because my suggestion requires you to be in town and manually open the window to begin the trade interface. It isn't a hands-off AH..
Risingred
01-07-2009, 04:36
Re-read, because my suggestion requires you to be in town and manually open the window to begin the trade interface.
Ah. I read it assuming you meant more than a...well, trading interface. That's all it is that you propose.
It isn't a hands-off AH..
Yeah that's a good thing. I hate having to go play the game while my trades are taken care of at the pace of other players. I love nothing more than standing around in a game for hours on end doing nothing. :crazyeyes:
I'd like to see a way to put an item or group of items up for trade. Call it whatever you want! While I'm playing the game, someone could browse through the items that I've put up for trade and they could offer other items or gold in exchange for them.
When I get back to town, I could go accept or reject whatever trades had been offered and the gear would be automatically transfered and deducted from our shared stashes.
Obviously if someone offers something for my stuff, it would have to remain "locked" in their stash until that offer was either cancelled, accepted or "expired". By limiting the trading to the space available in your shared stash, the game would also have a built in cap (per account) for how much one could trade at a time, which should help Blizzard manage their server limits.
Managing trades in this way would be fairly simple, should reduce spamming WTS / WTB garbage, and is really just an extention of the current D2 trade box with an added way to not need to be present to open a trade window and it has a built in delayed ability to accept the trade. People who like trading should still be happy as they would still have the same system only with a few more features.
Think of it like the stock market where you can have stop call options to buy or sell!
What do you guys think?
Kiroptus
01-07-2009, 05:31
Trading in Diablo 2 is very cumbersome and frustrating. Specially with the grieving community that is left playing D2 right now that always wants to make unfair trades.
Certainly the old, basic way of trading will be in but certainly we will have some extra options, something like a trade house/bazzar which will hopefully be the main way of trading and not the old Trade games.
Trading in Diablo 2 is very cumbersome and frustrating. Specially with the grieving community that is left playing D2 right now that always wants to make unfair trades.
Certainly the old, basic way of trading will be in but certainly we will have some extra options, something like a trade house/bazzar which will hopefully be the main way of trading and not the old Trade games.
Yeah totally.. recently I've only used the items I find myself.. its just fine and more fun actually and you don't have to worry about scams and dupes.
You don't understand that the trading being cumbersome and frustrating was part of the fun. "if any of you were actually good at Diablo which i can assume not atm" think of that time you tried to find that Druid helm with 2 skill and/or 3 ele skills with 2 sockets and has fcr and life and resists (yes all this was possible with the helm being legit) just think of how long it took you to find that 1 item that could very well be the last piece of gear you needed. I know it took me literally 16 days(bear in mind that no one would even take 40 hrs for this item cause it was worth like 60, then you had to offer things like eth bug exile + some runs even if you overpay, they might not want what you have item wise and they say nope bye, your left with 16 more days of trading) since i had first tried to get one. What the **** would you of had to do if you could go into auction house and just be like, hey look at that theres 3 of them and 1 of them is extremely underpriced ill take that one.
To ezzy to get all your gear with this type of system, it makes the non elites so much less focused on how they look at the economy also, for instance in d2 lod, you might of have someone selling a 400 dmg grief for 40 hr, someone else is like omg i have to beat him and drops it maybe to 38-40, it won't drop lower(90% of the time). (hr #'s were not intended to show how much 400 dmg grief really costs)
Now lets look at WoW "since theres an AH" someone has 3x epic gem up of same kind for 100g each, you put yours up for 90g, 5 minutes later someone puts theres up for 70g. Next thing you know theres 10x up for 60-70g while yours and other guys are at a fair price of 90-100. But the noobs break the market because they want there gold right away.
In diablo since people had to actually pay attention to trades EVERYONE wanted the average deal or better, there wasn't this omg 5 other people are whispering i have to beat him by a 40% margin or else I won't be able to sell it within even a 48 hr period.
Kiroptus
01-07-2009, 10:18
You don't understand that the trading being cumbersome and frustrating was part of the fun.
No its not part of the fun, its just outdated. Like many aspects from Diablo 2.
And whatever they have in mind for D3 wont be the same thing as WoW, there will probably be based around trading items as currency and not only gold. Gold certainly will be an option but Diablo is mostly about trading items so the new auction house/trade house/bazaar system.
inDiablo.de:
In a previous interview you mentioned that you are planning that items could be interchanged between two characters via streamline. With the trade window we know from Diablo 2, will this be an alternative trade method or will it even replace the trade window?
Jay Wilson:
Right now, we use a "trade window" kind of interface, like in Diablo 2, as a secure trade interface. We might explore some other way to make things easier for the player to trade. I think, when looking at Diablo 2, in just the general way - kind of stepping one step back from the question - and saying "How did players trade with one another in diablo 2?", that it was not the most convenient of methods. There was no kind of easy way to find other players and to trade with them, you had to create specific games for things like that and we definitely would like to solve this problem and make it more convenient. But we have not decided exactly on how we want to to this, yet.
Jay Wilson: Well, Diablo, at its core is basically a trader's game. If you look at other types of progression based RPG games, World of Warcraft is a great example. In World of Warcraft the best items are you know, held by the raiders. In Diablo the best items are really held by the traders. You know those people that are really good at trading with other people. We have no intention of destroying that design or that group of players. That being said a bartering system is actually a very exclusionary trading system; it essentially favors a very small group of elite people and it's not just that those people have entry into it. It's that anyone who wants to gain entry to that system, anybody who wants to just trade items with people, they have this huge barrier to entry, they just can't get into because they don't the value of items, they don't know what's worth what, they don't know what they need. So an elite trader would probably say, ‘Oh well, I like that I have this exclusive knowledge,' but he's actually denying himself customers essentially because there's no common language. A currency really provides a common language: that's the point of a currency. So we do want to support some kind of currency, we don't want to do some of the stuff that Diablo 2 did where they kind of actively devalued gold. We really do want to make gold, or potentially another currency – it may not have to be gold – a valuable commodity that players can use to be able to trade items. That being said it doesn't really prohibit item trading like people can use items as a currency. We have no intention of adding a Bind on Pickup or Bind on Equip, if we did it would probably be for like quest items not for actual functional, like items which people use to hack down monsters and stuff. There's nothing that's stopping bartering in that system but it does give people at least some kind of language you know if you've got two items and ones like a little bit more valuable, you can pad it with currency as well.
Bashiok: Right
Jay Wilson: Really we're trying to allow more people to get into the trading game because the more people that are in it the more fun it will be.
Thats what they have in mind right now. The old trade system will certainly be in but there will be something new, we just have to wait and see.
Even if an auction house devalues items it will be far more active,you wont be hanging on to items months on end and waiting to get an item for the same period.I play Conan and that has some sort of auction house but Conan doesn't have the diversity of items that D2 has (and D3 will probably have)so Id say an an Auction house or some faster system for trading will be far more exciting than it is in an MMO.
Knight_Wolf
01-07-2009, 12:18
There is no doubt the system for trading in D2 is outdated and very cumbersome and many find nothing interesting nor fun about an archaic system like that the only works to hinder their enjoyment of the game, as for D3, what has to be added doesn't have to an exact replica of the auction houses from MMORPGs at all ... but rather it's EQUIVALENT .. something that streamlines trading and makes long term trading an accessible and fun to use.
Possible example would be a trading channel with permanent but small instances (i.e trading towns) where people could put up offers and give or take feedback regarding theirs or others offer's, n those instances you can't use any items or skills and can only walk with your avatar, trade and chat with others or check the offer's left by those who are offline (represented by their avatars grayed out and standing there with a bag of items.
Limit for players per trading town could be up to 15 online and 15 offline at any time.
But this is only an idea .. it could work or not ... what's more important is knowing that the game does indeed and without doubt need a streamlined and modern overall system for long term trading besides the typical trade window.
Lol devalue? If you mean true market value, then sure. It's all about what a seller is willing sell it for and what a buyer is willing to pay it for. You know, that little thing called economics that everyone has learned in high school or college? If a seller wants to undercut himself, BECAUSE he is in a hurry (no patience), then yes he stands to take a loss. OTOH, if the guy is patient (and has a higher stat item than the norm), he can make the decision to wait for the extra picky buyer who is willing to pay more.
This is already happening right now. Compare the prices of 20lifers vs. 19/18. Compare the prices of 3frw plains vs. 3frw with stats. Compare skillers w/o life and w/ life. If you are in a hurry, you are WILLING to sell it for less. Obviously if you have a good item, but aren't willing to wait for the right buyer, that's your own mistake, but that's a decision the seller is free to make on his own.
How successful an auction house would be might depend on whether crafting will exist in D3, something I haven't heard discussed. I'm not familiar with the WoW system, but I know in LOTRO all characters can adopt gathering/crafting vocations which they can use to create armor, weapons, food, and just about anything else that others can use...then they can put those things up for auction. Or, they can (as my main does) gather the raw materials like wood, hides, and ore so others can buy and create. It works out rather well.
But, for the game to support such things might be more than Blizz is willing to pour into it.
:wave:
Jedouard
01-07-2009, 15:25
I love the idea of an auction house. It allows players to know not only what items are out there, but what the going price is for them. Early on, Bashiok said that there probably won't be (much) crafting in D3, because Blizz feels there are better ways to get items. I don't know if that is still the case, but if it is, there will no doubt be far more items in D3, and those items will no doubt be far more randomised in terms of modifiers. What better way to see what other players have found in game than through an auction house. Also, what better way to keep from being ripped off if you can what multiple copies of the same/similar item are going for. They could even improve this with a transaction history you could search through.
This is not to mention that this frees you - like so many others have already said - to play the game, look for other items and so on and so on.
Imagine they have a stable currency too, which only requires necessary money sinks, and you have so many ways to trade: auction barter, auction sale, P2P barter, P2P sale.
I can't really figure out the OP's stance. If Diablo were a religion, he would be a fundamentalist. "The old way is better because it is old... even though it is worse." He'd still be free to trade in his mind-boggingly annoying way if he wanted; I will be killing things, trading far more items, having better characters for it and, as a result, having more fun.
So all of you anti-auction house people posting in this thread. Tell me why exactly you are on this website. I still play D2, and public trading is hella frustrating. The whole reason I joined this forum was because it's basically a third party auction house. I post Items I have, Items I want, and BIN prices. I get to go play while people buy my items. If Diablo II had some sort of mail system, I wouldn't have to wait in game 5 minutes to perm, and pray to various gods I don't get temp banned.
If there is not a viable auction house type trade system implemented in game, then there will still be one created on websites like this. Get over it.
commonhumans
01-07-2009, 17:37
The OP's Stance:
Auction House. No. I do not want an auction house. Why? Because I don't like it and I don't think it will fit in well enough in D3. I do not want a system that functions like the auction house in WoW. Put it up for a price, wait 24 hours, get gold in the mail. Boring.
For those of you that want to be out killing monsters rather than trading, please feel free to go and do so, you are more than welcome to go farm your items rather than trade them out. I love slaying monsters just as much as the next Diablo player but trading is a different situation.
Now I'm not sitting here and saying that the Diablo 2 way of trade was the best way to trade ever... It wasn't at all. It definitely needs to be improve and streamlined. But for what it was it was still very fun, at least for me, to trade.
Now if there was a bazaar function where you had to leave you charcter up and running with what you had for trade and you had a wsh list of what you wanted for your times and people could leave you offers i might be okay with that. And yes thats different than an auction house. Because it is your character standing there doing the work and not letting some one else (like a group of npcs) do it for you.
The monsters aren't going to die off by themselves and they will be there after you trade. All I'm saying is that I hope that Blizzard doesn't completely ruin an area of the game that I actually enjoyed, the trading. Even if you loved it or hated it your cannot deny the fact that it played a huge roll in Diablo 2.
Starving_Poet
01-07-2009, 18:06
You don't understand that the trading being cumbersome and frustrating was part of the fun.
Yeah, just like:
How one-hit kill FELE bugged monsters were 'fun'.
How TPPK was 'fun'.
How Triple-Immune Monsters were 'fun'.
How desynchs and disconnects are 'fun'.
How the internet pre-html was 'fun'.
How dealing with an insurance agency is 'fun'.
satheron
01-07-2009, 18:33
If diablo3 wouldn't benefit from an auction house then you wouldn't see such websites flourishing as d2jsp..
Right now people on that website are massing their online currency for diablo 3. So if you know where to look diablo 2 already has a auction system. Though its just not something that was added by the developers.
The good victory for the diablo 3 team economics wise would be to make d2jsp useless.
The OP's Stance:
Now if there was a bazaar function where you had to leave you charcter up and running with what you had for trade and you had a wsh list of what you wanted for your times and people could leave you offers i might be okay with that. And yes thats different than an auction house. Because it is your character standing there doing the work and not letting some one else (like a group of npcs) do it for you.
A FFXI-type "bazaar" system wouldn't work in a game like Diablo since the world is 100% instanced.
Auction House. No. I do not want an auction house. Why? Because I don't like it and I don't think it will fit in well enough in D3. I do not want a system that functions like the auction house in WoW. Put it up for a price, wait 24 hours, get gold in the mail. Boring.
An "Auction House" system is much, MUCH better than boringly waiting in a trade game for something you want, then finally getting the usual "Offer?" or "lol you're a nub" reply from the guy trying to scam you.
The good victory for the diablo 3 team economics wise would be to make d2jsp useless.
That's the bottom line, but it seems that the anti-auction house (or anti anything-not-status-quo) crowd is blind to it.
The OP's Stance:
Auction House. No. I do not want an auction house. Why? Because I don't like it and I don't think it will fit in well enough in D3. I do not want a system that functions like the auction house in WoW. Put it up for a price, wait 24 hours, get gold in the mail. Boring.
For those of you that want to be out killing monsters rather than trading, please feel free to go and do so, you are more than welcome to go farm your items rather than trade them out. I love slaying monsters just as much as the next Diablo player but trading is a different situation.
So basically the OP is opposed to fun and thinks a players time should be spent either playing the game and killing monsters, or sitting around and trading (not doing both simultaneously).
I'm glad you're not a designer.
The economy in D2 is likely to be based around farming AND trading, not one or the other. I suppose that's a valid point of view, but it's an extremely boring point of view.
Finally, aside from that, an AH can streamline the economy so much that it will be much more fun to only take part in economic interactions (purchases etc) and wealth will be viably gained from only participating in the market at a much better rate than without some sort of market tools.
Before forums jumped on the trading bandwagon, trading was wrought with disdain and bore. Sitting around in a channel, making a FT list, and pasting it hoping that someone will read it. Going through the WUW WUG banter. I have a hard time imagining that anyone thought this was particularly "fun" and if they do have that impression it is likely because they are looking back with rose tinted glasses.
The good victory for the diablo 3 team economics wise would be to make d2jsp useless.
TITCR. This is it. And the bottom line is, Blizzard doesn't want another company monetizing their games economy. Lucky for the players, eliminating the need for something like jsp is a win win. It streamlines economic interaction for the players (they don't have to trade on forums and buy e-currency), it gives players a more robust economy to work with(i.e. If I want to trade for a low level item, say cleg's set, I will have to spend a LONG time waiting for someone who has it because most people don't even pick it up, with an AH system availability of items is much more broad spectrum in that a much larger range of items will be around and exchanged on an AH.), and it gives more control to blizzard over how economic interactions work.
^^ Agreed, but why hasn't Blizzard taken the time to even bring this up in interviews? After all, with the Diablo universe being a game of virtual materialism, trading SHOULD be right there in the discussion (after talking about skills/combat/quests of course).
Somewhat of a tangent, but if they used 1.13 as a springboard to test something like this in D2, as an in-game interface, it'd be amazing! But...lol that's a pipe dream isn't it.
:sadface
RogueJuggalo
01-07-2009, 20:41
Now lets look at WoW "since theres an AH" someone has 3x epic gem up of same kind for 100g each, you put yours up for 90g, 5 minutes later someone puts theres up for 70g. Next thing you know theres 10x up for 60-70g while yours and other guys are at a fair price of 90-100. But the noobs break the market because they want there gold right away.
In these situations you just buy all the 60-90g items and re-list them at the fair price, wait a bit, then enjoy making tons of gold off of a few seconds worth of clicking. I don't think this is a good reason to say no to an AH in D3.
GuardianHadriel
01-07-2009, 22:02
rouge Juggalo´s right...so right:thumbup:
Risingred
01-07-2009, 22:05
In these situations you just buy all the 60-90g items and re-list them at the fair price, wait a bit, then enjoy making tons of gold off of a few seconds worth of clicking. I don't think this is a good reason to say no to an AH in D3.
No kidding. Or just wait...because if it's a popular item like epic gems in WoW then it will sell quick if it's a super-low price, and your gems would remain the only ones for sale so you get to dictate the price.
It really isn't that difficult to understand, folks. :p
You don't have to agree with it but at least make an attempt at thinking about it logically.
If diablo3 wouldn't benefit from an auction house then you wouldn't see such websites flourishing as d2jsp..
Right now people on that website are massing their online currency for diablo 3. So if you know where to look diablo 2 already has a auction system. Though its just not something that was added by the developers.
The good victory for the diablo 3 team economics wise would be to make d2jsp useless.
Luckily most of that forum gold is probably being wasted on items at the start which can be really really expensive since there is only 1 per realm at the start when someone finds them..
And even better, if we get a brilliant trading system for bnet and d3 people refuse to take forum gold but rather take game gold or other items because they want to trade in battle.net.
Yeah you could just buy all those ones priced low and then put them up at the higher price for profit, thats one of the major ways i profited in WoW. But that doesn't take away the fact that Auction House trading is boring.
Theres NO interaction between people, sure sometimes if you see an item you want you might whisper someone to try to get it for cheaper but they are usually offline anyways.
I don't know how many of you played D2 when it was real popular, but if theres alot of people playing, its trading system is very quick compared to well for instance now(and before d3 was announced) when its population has died.
In D2 trading there was something called INTERACTION, and attempted bargaining. Trading was indeed a fun part of the game, it just was. It is a nice change from leveling and PvPing and MFing. It was just another aspect of the game. It's just boring to put an item up in AH and say you log off and when you get home, "I have mail my item sold". Back to killing monsters.
You know its just simply a nice break away from killing monsters. Espesh with how some of the people want the new MF system to be where pretty much no such thing as a boss that can drop loot that no other mobs can drop but instead only has a heightened chance of dropping some items. This will even be more of a reason why a sociable trading system needs to exist, killing monsters for 95% of your gameplay is not fun. Meaning lets say you have 1 day playtime (assuming a /playtime exists). Chances are at least 22 hours of that was killing monsters. (yeah ok obviously in the beginning since you just want to level anyways, but even later on the % will still stay like this).
Risingred
01-07-2009, 23:28
Trading was indeed a fun part of the game, it just was.
This is going to make me sound like a nutter, but bear with me: different people find different things fun.
wug is not fun. It never was for me. It never will be. Neither was haggling over some piece of gear when I wanted to be killing monsters or other players, or waiting for an hour for a certain thing before giving up after just sitting in a game for no apparent reason. Grinding pgems was almost the lamest of all, tbh.
This is going to make me sound like a nutter, but bear with me: different people find different things fun.
wug is not fun. It never was for me. It never will be. Neither was haggling over some piece of gear when I wanted to be killing monsters or other players, or waiting for an hour for a certain thing before giving up after just sitting in a game for no apparent reason. Grinding pgems was almost the lamest of all, tbh.
Grinding pgems was horrible I never did that cause i always had hella hr's. And no I didn't buy them off a website... i was lucky with runewords so i liked to make griefs and i ushally got 385 dmg + so i was able to make good profit.
and ok so you don't like trading i understand, but then it was part of the Diablo game why would they change it? about 50% like the trading system and 50% don't, how will they find something maybe in between both people like? I don't know. But an auction house isn't that, that would simply be a one side thing and not mixed. So lets hope they think of something amazing.
Some people think maybe they will have a trading game that allows more than 5 people in it, and more like 40ish etc. I don't think they will do that it doesn't really make sense to have 1 game allow more people in it than others. Though I would def like to see a PvP system that was like that where partys still couldn't pass 5 people so one party didn't control the map.
Anyways yeah, I wonder where it will go!
Risingred
02-07-2009, 01:51
Well, I can't imagine them having to make players go into a game to trade. I don't see that happening. It's very counter-intuitive. If anything, it'll likely be a text-based, chat interface of some sort.
All I can say is that I'm very unhappy with current trading methods. If we don't get an AH, I just hope it's something that can function as well, because there's a lot of benefits to an AH besides just streamlined trading. Economical benefits.
And when I was grinding pgems, there weren't any runewords or runes for that matter. That was the only main currency until SoJs were duped, and runewords can after HRs were duped. I mean, it's still a kind of pseudo-workable currency as it is but it kind of sucks to have the currency take up inventory slots.
Well, I can't imagine them having to make players go into a game to trade. I don't see that happening. It's very counter-intuitive. If anything, it'll likely be a text-based, chat interface of some sort.
All I can say is that I'm very unhappy with current trading methods. If we don't get an AH, I just hope it's something that can function as well, because there's a lot of benefits to an AH besides just streamlined trading. Economical benefits.
And when I was grinding pgems, there weren't any runewords or runes for that matter. That was the only main currency until SoJs were duped, and runewords can after HRs were duped. I mean, it's still a kind of pseudo-workable currency as it is but it kind of sucks to have the currency take up inventory slots.
Even during the SoJ time before duped and after duped I just did meph runs / pindleskin, would find stormshields very often and just a bunch of things to get SoJ's.
And slots is now in d3 everything takes 1 slot so i mean its not like its going to be hard to keep a currency like that.
The 1 slot thing for everything now doesn't make much sense to me since i actually liked the idea of charms , small med and large. So are they taking those out now or something? Don't think we have been told yet ^^
Nextt,
There was no pre-dupe soj time. And trading has never been "fast" in D2. It's always been very very slow. Very slow.
Some people like to haggle.
Some people would rather play. Forcing people to haggle or vendor is somewhat ridiculous.
Agreed. If I recall, SoJs were THE currency in classic, right from Day1. Oddly enough, they were fairly easy to gamble legit (I gambled 3 or 4 myself with nagel/manald). The catch just was that dupers had dozens of these in tow at any one time.
Nextt,
There was no pre-dupe soj time. And trading has never been "fast" in D2. It's always been very very slow. Very slow.
Some people like to haggle.
Some people would rather play. Forcing people to haggle or vendor is somewhat ridiculous.
Huh? i don't think i understand what you said but SoJ dupe existted since at least begining of LoD
Starving_Poet
02-07-2009, 14:40
Huh? i don't think i understand what you said but SoJ dupe existted since at least begining of LoD
No, on classic release, if you had the other unique rings, they wouldn't drop if a unique ring spawned, so you could force which ring would drop.
One thing I have not seen mentioned in here is that the loot dropped will now be individual. This likely will increase the amount of player to player trading right after boss-kills etc. because perhaps you got something another player wants and he got something you want. I believe this will increase the interaction between players in-game even if there was an AH or similar solution.
Personally I would love any improvement (including AH) to the trade function, since I never even did it in D2 because it was a chore to get into and a frustration to carry out.
What i think people who are against the whole AH idea are prehaps only looking at it from a "end game" view point.
Such as, I have X high end item and I want Y high end item.
What you are missing is the amount of items which get collect from the very moment you set foot in the game at a very early level.
I cant remember how many "nice" rares etc I just vendored because they weren't any good for my character or for any alts I currently had running and I couldn't be bothered to create hunderds of alts to hold low level stuff I may never use.
If there is an AH all of these items can be put up for what ever currency there is (gold/gems/etc) and people can look around and get stuff for their low level alts.
When you look at the AH in wow for example, its not full of top end epic gear it has lots and lots of low level levelling gear. This is where a AH is useful, how many of you anti AH's are going to stand around for hours on end with lvl5 - lvl10 gear.
AHs help people to gear up through the game and then player trading comes in at the top end.
What i think people who are against the whole AH idea are prehaps only looking at it from a "end game" view point.
Such as, I have X high end item and I want Y high end item.
What you are missing is the amount of items which get collect from the very moment you set foot in the game at a very early level.
I cant remember how many "nice" rares etc I just vendored because they weren't any good for my character or for any alts I currently had running and I couldn't be bothered to create hunderds of alts to hold low level stuff I may never use.
If there is an AH all of these items can be put up for what ever currency there is (gold/gems/etc) and people can look around and get stuff for their low level alts.
When you look at the AH in wow for example, its not full of top end epic gear it has lots and lots of low level levelling gear. This is where a AH is useful, how many of you anti AH's are going to stand around for hours on end with lvl5 - lvl10 gear.
AHs help people to gear up through the game and then player trading comes in at the top end.
This is another excellent point that is new to me. I like it. :thumbup:
This is another excellent point that is new to me. I like it. :thumbup:
Yeah its a good point of view but an AH really just makes it easier for someone not to put any effort into obtaining items they want. In a hacknslash type game if you want items I firmly believe you should find them yourself. Finding your own loot is one of the best parts of a hacknslash type rpg.
The other issue with the AH is the fact that so many overprice items it becomes really insane. I really do not wish to see people buying Diablo 3 gold just because people want to overprice items.
What i think people who are against the whole AH idea are prehaps only looking at it from a "end game" view point.
When you look at the AH in wow for example, its not full of top end epic gear it has lots and lots of low level levelling gear. This is where a AH is useful, how many of you anti AH's are going to stand around for hours on end with lvl5 - lvl10 gear.
AHs help people to gear up through the game and then player trading comes in at the top end.
1. Partially I agree it helps once people are past and are leveling up but it effects the late game to much since items are BoP/BoE and shouldn't be anyways.
2. Not full of top end epic gear because, BoP/BoE.
3. There is no such thing as a AH is only used for early game and not late game in a game without BoP/BoE items. Unless they put like an item level limit on it. But BoP/BoE will not exist in D3 for at least one major reason, Diablo is a trading game! Thats why BoP/BoE doesn't exist, so you can TRADE in a proper way that isn't so easy that everyone is fulled decked out without even trying to do anything.
Kokolums
03-07-2009, 03:19
Personally I have never traded for anything in all my years of playing D2 on battle.net. If anything, I sometimes go in the opposite direction when it comes to gear and play "ironman" style where you can only use things you find in the world - you can't even play the NPC shops!
Kokolums
03-07-2009, 03:22
Agreed. If I recall, SoJs were THE currency in classic, right from Day1. Oddly enough, they were fairly easy to gamble legit (I gambled 3 or 4 myself with nagel/manald). The catch just was that dupers had dozens of these in tow at any one time.
Also in the beginning, they have no min level. So I had several OLD SOJs with no min level at all on them. Pretty nice.
CombatShrine
03-07-2009, 04:31
An auction house is a fantastic idea.
Like pretty much everyone supporting the motion has agreed, trading on B.Net is an aggravating, lengthy, stressful experience that carries with it the very-real risk of being hideously lowballed due to lack of information and competitive bidding. The "wuggers" just make it unbearable.
Back when I was still playing D2, I was amazed at how much more efficient it is to trade on the trade forums here than on bnet. I made more trades in the span of ~4-5 months than I had in the past 2 years. Buyers and sellers were easy to find, and competitive bidding made me trade with confidence that I wasn't being lowballed.
I was able to outfit my MF necro in a ridiculously short time, just by trading stuff I had found. I even discovered markets for items I would have otherwise thrown away.
An auction house is a fantastic idea.
Like pretty much everyone supporting the motion has agreed, trading on B.Net is an aggravating, lengthy, stressful experience that carries with it the very-real risk of being hideously lowballed due to lack of information and competitive bidding. The "wuggers" just make it unbearable.
Back when I was still playing D2, I was amazed at how much more efficient it is to trade on the trade forums here than on bnet. I made more trades in the span of ~4-5 months than I had in the past 2 years. Buyers and sellers were easy to find, and competitive bidding made me trade with confidence that I wasn't being lowballed.
I was able to outfit my MF necro in a ridiculously short time, just by trading stuff I had found. I even discovered markets for items I would have otherwise thrown away.
K this isn't the same as an AH type thing unless they could make it that way, which everytime i've seen a game that involves the AI(computer / system) and 2 items being traded tend to have many errors. But if they can do that im down for it.
The forum trading is nothing like an AH. You talk back and forth, make offers in other item or hr/soj or w/e. Only difference between Diablo ingame trading and those is you get to be lazy about it and look at the forum once a day to see if someone responded. Thats totally fine, but it isn't the same as an AH unless they can get it to work like that, which I don't think they can.
How would it be that much different. Most trades on this forum follow a simple pattern.
A. I list item for opening bid of a certain type of currency, people bid.
B. I offer a price at BIN, and it gets purchased.
C. I offer a price at BIN, and someone offers a lower price.
All of these can easily be automated in an AH. the only thing that an AH wouldn't cover is item for item trades, and that won't go away in Diablo III even if they made an AH. The whole point I think people are trying to make is that this website is nothing more then an auction house by proxy, run by a third party. Blizzard has already said they want to change the current trading system, and we all know how they like to control thier games, so it would not be a stretch for them to make something that could kill or hamper trading sites like this.
1. Partially I agree it helps once people are past and are leveling up but it effects the late game to much since items are BoP/BoE and shouldn't be anyways.
2. Not full of top end epic gear because, BoP/BoE.
3. There is no such thing as a AH is only used for early game and not late game in a game without BoP/BoE items. Unless they put like an item level limit on it. But BoP/BoE will not exist in D3 for at least one major reason, Diablo is a trading game! Thats why BoP/BoE doesn't exist, so you can TRADE in a proper way that isn't so easy that everyone is fulled decked out without even trying to do anything.
Just try and forget about BoP and BoE because it is an added dimension which draws away from the point.
When levelling put would put up any item they found for what ever currency there is on the AH
When you suddenly get X super epic item drop you could put it up for N gold/gems/etc but you are ALOT more likely to try and find a player to trader with directly for Y super epic you want.
For example, if you removed BoP/BoE from every item in wow, you would see the trade channels full of "WANT TO TRADE <item> FOR <item>.
Which is basically what you want, you would also have people doing "WANT TO SELL <item> FOR <currency>. This may be for gambling/repairs what ever they choose.
Having a form of AH in no way limits your ability to TRADE player to player. It just gives you the added ability to sell other items for something which my benefit you.
Just because your view of trading is sitting in a game saying WUG/WUN for hours on end does not define it as trading to everyone.
Blizzard has already said they want to change the current trading system, and we all know how they like to control thier games, so it would not be a stretch for them to make something that could kill or hamper trading sites like this.
You sir are wrong, they actually havn't given much info on it but have mentioned about the uniqueness of the interaction between players in the Diablo2 trading and how they don't want to take that away. I don't have the exact quote about this cause im to lazy to look but here is a quote nontheless
"I'll go back to what I said at the beginning and state we don't know what if any types of trading systems will be in the final game. Maybe there won't be, it may be that eventually we settle on leaving it Diablo II style. We have some ideas of what would be cool, but at the end of the day we're not going to do anything that isn't far and away a more positive change for the game."
emopanda
05-07-2009, 17:39
I played wow, And didnt like the idea of auction house, everyone spoilts the market to easy, and its irritating when they post items after you at a bit cheaper rate.
I played wow, And didnt like the idea of auction house, everyone spoilts the market to easy, and its irritating when they post items after you at a bit cheaper rate.
It's called free market. If you are willing to take a loss, then the seller has every right to do that. Don't be angry b/c someone is willing to price it at a lower cost - it's business. E.g. consider a 7% MF sc. We have Person A who thinks this is worth an HR. His mistake. Person B otoh, recognizes that so close to a reset it is only worth a pul. He puts it up as "bin - pul". Gee, guess who's gonna sell it first?
If the noob is angry b/c he didn't rip off someone by selling it for HR, it's his own fault for not recognizing that the market price has dropped significantly. We call that due diligence, doing your homework. It's not that hard to do.
CombatShrine
05-07-2009, 18:25
It's called free market. If you are willing to take a loss, then the seller has every right to do that. Don't be angry b/c someone is willing to price it at a lower cost - it's business. E.g. consider a 7% MF sc. We have Person A who thinks this is worth an HR. His mistake. Person B otoh, recognizes that so close to a reset it is only worth a pul. He puts it up as "bin - pul". Gee, guess who's gonna sell it first?
If the noob is angry b/c he didn't rip off someone by selling it for HR, it's his own fault for not recognizing that the market price has dropped significantly. We call that due diligence, doing your homework. It's not that hard to do.
Agreed.
He is experiencing the pain of open, competitive bidding and how it prevents people from getting screwed on trades.
RogueJuggalo
08-07-2009, 20:56
One thing I have not seen mentioned in here is that the loot dropped will now be individual. This likely will increase the amount of player to player trading right after boss-kills etc. because perhaps you got something another player wants and he got something you want. I believe this will increase the interaction between players in-game even if there was an AH or similar solution.
I agree with this statement completely. I've also played WoW for the first year it was out (as much as I hate to admit it :embarassed:) and I loved the Auction House system. I also really enjoyed trading on battle.net (and still do) but the Auction House has kind of spoiled it for me a bit because I liked it better and prefer it over battle.net trading now.
The AH is more rewarding to the intelligent player and it has much less luck involved. There's a lot of luck in trading in Diablo 2 on battle.net but the intelligent player still has an edge.
Also, it was mentioned that with an Auction House you wouldn't have to spend as much time trading and therefore spend more time killing monsters. I'm personally all for this idea because with a common currency (such as gold in WoW) you can always be making a profit while you play whether it be selling on the Auction House or killing monsters. I often found myself just reading through EVERYTHING on the Auction House to find good prospects to buyout/bid on with the intent to resell for a profit. That time spent there would be my equivalent of mfing on d2.
What I really hated doing was having to idle in a city and spam in attempt to sell an enchantment. Only the people in the same city as me could see my spam (like in trade games in D2, but bigger) and I had to be able to meet the person to do the service so it made using the AH difficult (split focus) and I wasn't able to kill monsters for profit at the same time.
In D2, you can do mf runs while in a game like 'Ber for Jah' or whatever, but you'd have to also account for time spent muling. I would personally prefer to go to an AH, post my Ber, go kill stuff, Ber sells, post my new loot and buy my jah, and go on with life (or game, I guess they can be interchangeable :crazyeyes:)
Even in D2 now, sometimes someone will grab a drop I really wanted and I'll just trade for it right then and there (if I'm lucky and they don't make it difficult). In D3, like Luhrg said, with personal drops (and hopefully a good common in-game currency like gold) it will be much more likely to trade with players face-to-face in game as well because if you don't have an item they want, you can always offer currency. Or supplement a trade with currency to balance out an interaction on either side. Any Diablo 2 traders know how frustrating it is to be looking for an item and you offer something for it that the buyer says 'too low % add.' Try as you might, nothing you show will be something they want/need (unless you have spare runes on you, then you might get lucky). Having a currency would make it easier to complete trades like these.
Another thing that I loved about the AH is how many ways there were to make money in the free market. More players play on Friday/Saturday than any other day so I'd always buy up things cheap during the week and save items I've farmed until Friday and then post them for HUGE profits. D2 and WoW are actually what sparked my interest in business. :smug:
Anyways... I hope my kinda rant-like post has contributed something to this post. I honestly cannot fathom any reason not to include and auction house in Diablo 3.
Usufruct
08-07-2009, 22:42
I don't really need an auction house, but I'd like to be able to send mail in-game to other players.
I don't really need an auction house, but I'd like to be able to send mail in-game to other players.
I don't think the post man will be able to make it to Bellows Falls during the Post - Diablo 3 - Release - Winterstorm to deliver your ingame mail.
Steven Catogen
09-07-2009, 00:12
I've only read the first post. I'll go back and get the rest later.
'WUG' can die in a fire. I have no strong feelings either way regarding an Auction House. However, any trading system that does not crushing blow and deadly strike my faith in humanity as a sapient species is a massive improvement, insofar as I am concerned.
Risingred
09-07-2009, 00:18
I've only read the first post. I'll go back and get the rest later.
'WUG' can die in a fire. I have no strong feelings either way regarding an Auction House. However, any trading system that does not crushing blow and deadly strike my faith in humanity as a sapient species is a massive improvement, insofar as I am concerned.
I think I love you.
I like how everyone that was in the elitism topic is now coming to this topic where I have also had multiple posts ^^.
on topic.
Yeah WUG can die in a fire but I think thats mainly cause like... heres an example
You want to buy x item for 2 hr but you know its worth 3 but you obvoiusly want the better deal if you can get it, but usually you are willing to pay that extra 1 if your not 100% broke, but then stuff like this happens.
They enter the game, show u it, say WUG, you are like 2 hr. THEN THEY LEAVE THE GAME! I mean what the hell. Its called BARGAIN! Those are the people that really annoy me. I always whisper them and then offer more than what its worth so they come back in the game then i ignore them. Fun times
But yeah thats why I agree that WUG is annoying. But I don't like the Idea of an Auction House system "IF the currency is gold and the Auction House isn't Item trade for item / currency of Hr(or w/e item type currency D3 will be)"
Then AH is fine. As long as currency isn't gold(or money dropped from mobs) and the AH can be made like that for item item trade or however it goes. Then I'm cool with it.
Actually you are the first one with the first post after the thread was locked.
Seems like you are trying to incite or flamebait everyone.
Not going to happen.
Don't even try it.
Actually you are the first one with the first post after the thread was locked.
Seems like you are trying to incite or flamebait everyone.
Not going to happen.
Don't even try it.
Yeah I guess I was by 20 minutes, not trying to do anything like that tho i just don't usually pay attention to who it is responding to posts i just read them and look at there avatar which is where the memory comes from.
Don't even know how you came up with that logic being I've been in this thread since like the beginning of the 1st post.
Don't even know how you came up with that logic being I've been in this thread since like the beginning of the 1st post.
That is not what he wrote.
Yeah I guess I was by 20 minutes, not trying to do anything like that tho i just don't usually pay attention to who it is responding to posts i just read them and look at there avatar which is where the memory comes from.
Don't even know how you came up with that logic being I've been in this thread since like the beginning of the 1st post.
This:
I like how everyone that was in the elitism topic is now coming to this topic where I have also had multiple posts ^^.
Seems like you are trying to get people to respond to you so that you can carry on like you did in the other thread.
Maybe it's just me but it seems like you like to see your self post or something.
I think maybe you should stop while you're ahead.
This:
Seems like you are trying to get people to respond to you so that you can carry on like you did in the other thread.
Maybe it's just me but it seems like you like to see your self post or something.
I think maybe you should stop while you're ahead.
I do read my own posts more than I read others posts so I always know exactly what I said.
Anyways back on topic please which goes all the way back up about 4 posts to where what I had last said
"Yeah WUG can die in a fire but I think thats mainly cause like... heres an example
You want to buy x item for 2 hr but you know its worth 3 but you obvoiusly want the better deal if you can get it, but usually you are willing to pay that extra 1 if your not 100% broke, but then stuff like this happens.
They enter the game, show u it, say WUG, you are like 2 hr. THEN THEY LEAVE THE GAME! I mean what the hell. Its called BARGAIN! Those are the people that really annoy me. I always whisper them and then offer more than what its worth so they come back in the game then i ignore them. Fun times
But yeah thats why I agree that WUG is annoying. But I don't like the Idea of an Auction House system "IF the currency is gold and the Auction House isn't Item trade for item / currency of Hr(or w/e item type currency D3 will be)"
Then AH is fine. As long as currency isn't gold(or money dropped from mobs) and the AH can be made like that for item item trade or however it goes. Then I'm cool with it."
Risingred
09-07-2009, 01:39
Then AH is fine. As long as currency isn't gold(or money dropped from mobs) and the AH can be made like that for item item trade or however it goes. Then I'm cool with it."
Gold is an item.
Nextt, the warning stands. Stop insulting people.
The next time you do it, you are gone.
For convienience i prefer an AH..
However i do think it is part of the expierience in Diablo :)
It was the first game i played with a pure trading system with no gold per say..
Hard to get used to though..
Either way i wont be too gutted either way :whistling:
Nextt, the warning stands. Stop insulting people.
The next time you do it, you are gone.
I seem to miss where in this thread I insulted someone? elaborate, Preferably in a pm so we can stop getting off topic and back on the importance of the thread.
"Quote from Kns"
"However i do think it is part of the expierience in Diablo
It was the first game i played with a pure trading system with no gold per say.."
Totally Agree, and it was my first one to and while it was frustrating at times, it was a nice change from the normal game. People say they want games to be different, well this is one way. Only game I know of that has this kind of trading system.
It's like so many people complaining about quests always being kill this mob get this item loot this gather talk, talk to him. I mean if quests are put into the game how else can it be other than those?
Other than like a quest that says Fly 500 feet that way and 500 feet back and your quest is finished. Which is just .. yeah...
Risingred's words
"Gold is an item."
This can be looked at by like 5 different ways I won't elaborate cause my long posts never get read anyways. But in the sense of a D2 setup, I disagree.
Steven Catogen
09-07-2009, 15:22
Earlier I said something to the effect of 'anything would be better than D2's current trade system'. And that is true. However, I should elaborate a bit on some of the alternatives.
Gold (or similar currency that anyone can find, but that is useful to everyone) would be one of the better options from where I'm sitting. Diablo 1 did this. Most items, even of the endgame variety could simply be purchased. And anyone can find gold, it is simply a matter of getting enough of it.
There still was some sort of trading going on, but it wasn't a dominant force by any means. Sure, it didn't help that it was so easy to dupe in D1 that you could honestly do it by accident and even this site says as much when it tells you how to do so. But if you were to take the same concept and apply it to a secure server, I'd imagine it would work very well as a means of decentralizing trading while still preserving it for those that want it. Those that don't can simply find their own stuff in a feasible manner.
The item sellers and whatnot that do nothing but bot bosses to find stuff to sell won't like it, but they can die in a fire as well.
Even so, there's a reason they used bots. Doing the farming required to find that stuff normally is incredibly boring, repetitive, and by no means requires skill. Perfect job for a script. And while that by no means saves them from the proverbial fire alluded to, it is still relevant because the underlying problem is that drop rates are too low. And that's something a D1 style economy would fix. Of course it would also have to fix the heavy overcentralization in D1, but that isn't a problem if you start with that goal.
Usufruct
09-07-2009, 16:23
I don't think the post man will be able to make it to Bellows Falls during the Post - Diablo 3 - Release - Winterstorm to deliver your ingame mail.
lol they better, what am I paying for with this postage? And btw in WoW have you ever even ONCE seen any mailmen running around putting letters in postboxes? Hmm?
lol they better, what am I paying for with this postage? And btw in WoW have you ever even ONCE seen any mailmen running around putting letters in postboxes? Hmm?
No, but I have caused Postmaster Malown to drop Malown's Slam!
Risingred
09-07-2009, 16:54
lol they better, what am I paying for with this postage? And btw in WoW have you ever even ONCE seen any mailmen running around putting letters in postboxes? Hmm?
Y'know I always wondered the same thing. They even have outhouses in the game.
But like Gorny said, there was that postmaster malone quest. That's it as far as I know, though.
Really makes you wonder how a mailman would get around sanctuary. If there is one brave and tough enough, he should be a playable class. :thumbup:
Firstly an Auction House can't even work with d3 due to the fact it isn't an MMO. So you guys should really just take that out of being in there. Also by saying you want an AH means you want "gold" or "money" to be the currency, that is not going to happen most likely as the old or a better version of the old "MF" system will probably be in d3. You are all looking at this through an MMO perspective, raiding is non existent in d3 which gives you alot more free time, this is where you trade / duel / level (because god knows that diablo is not a game where if you quest to max level your going to be really bored, a nice thing in Diablo was taking forever to hit the "max lvl" because it always gave you something you could do, but there was never a huge difference between a lvl 91 and a lvl 99 "no items they could wear lvl 91 couldn't, only some more skill point and stats")
Back on topic, Auction House = Currency of gold or coin etc, D3 i don't believe is going to be that, it was one of the unique things about diablo that is probably going to stay. It simply doesn't make sense to buy items with coins in a non MMO.
Now I havn't a clue what the currency might be, but for instance SoJ was the first currency and a good one(till dupes). so if something like that exists maybe they could have a few games that are always up called like Tradeing#1-5 , and in those games theres a NPC in the middle where you can put an item in it and have it sell for whatever the currency is going to be as far as an item goes (like SoJ). This idea is still far fetched tho due to it isn't an MMO and the idea of these trading channels being up 24/7 without possible crash where the items in it are lost. or how you go about getting what sold is hard to do.
So now your like well why don't they just use coins if there going to use an SoJ as a currency. Well thats the point of mf type runs, finding items to trade for currency. Coin currency gets inflated easier, and is stupid for the currency to be something every mob drops.
It's also easier to dupe coins/gold than it is items due to item ID #'s.
I think everyone's aware that D3 is no MMO, but it doesnt prevent MMO mechanics from working. It's all but confirmed that they're taking that route anyway.
As for currency, it's also been heavily suggested that Blizzard's goal was to make money substantially more worthwhile this time around. Traditions change!
tetracycloide
09-07-2009, 19:43
As long as currency isn't gold(or money dropped from mobs) and the AH can be made like that for item item trade or however it goes. Then I'm cool with it."
The only difference between item for item trade and item for currency for item trade is that there are more people with something worth trading for in the second model. Why should diablo III return to a trading model that has been outmoded in games for a decade or two and has been outdated in the real world for thousands of years?
Most of the complaints in diablo II for currency trading, price inflation and rarity anaomolies, will dissapear when duping is removed. Likewise the argument that gold in diablo II was too common and therefor gold in diablo III cannot be currency is really a straw man because gold in diablo III need not be as common, gold find not easy to aquire, and gold sinks not so poorly balanced with gold drops.
Ultimately diablo II and diablo III are different games and arguments that are essentially 'well that wouldn't work in diablo II' are moot because diablo III doesn't have to follow the diablo II model for anything. diablo III is a new game, it should be treated as such.
The only difference between item for item trade and item for currency for item trade is that there are more people with something worth trading for in the second model. Why should diablo III return to a trading model that has been outmoded in games for a decade or two and has been outdated in the real world for thousands of years?
Most of the complaints in diablo II for currency trading, price inflation and rarity anaomolies, will dissapear when duping is removed. Likewise the argument that gold in diablo II was too common and therefor gold in diablo III cannot be currency is really a straw man because gold in diablo III need not be as common, gold find not easy to aquire, and gold sinks not so poorly balanced with gold drops.
Ultimately diablo II and diablo III are different games and arguments that are essentially 'well that wouldn't work in diablo II' are moot because diablo III doesn't have to follow the diablo II model for anything. diablo III is a new game, it should be treated as such.
they have actually stated they like the system with a possible change/twist to it. They said they wanted gold to have a more of a value but that doesn't mean with trading. They have talked about having "magic find" still be in the game but change that a bit also.
Whats the point of getting a bunch of magic find if you can just find gold and buy everything? Then you will just get Chinese gold farmers,(ok not chinese ones since gold selling for RL money was banned in china ^^)
It isn't about it being so new they should go and make somehting as core as the special trading system it had, and go and make it the same as every other game.
they have actually stated they like the system with a possible change/twist to it. They said they wanted gold to have a more of a value but that doesn't mean with trading. They have talked about having "magic find" still be in the game but change that a bit also.
Whats the point of getting a bunch of magic find if you can just find gold and buy everything? Then you will just get Chinese gold farmers,(ok not chinese ones since gold selling for RL money was banned in china ^^)
It isn't about it being so new they should go and make somehting as core as the special trading system it had, and go and make it the same as every other game.
If gold has value it will be used in exchange for items period. If they want to make gold something worth caring about, then it will ultimately become the currency.
If gold can not purchase items on the open market, it will be either because the put an artificial barrier on it (like gold not being tradable) or because they have failed and made gold pointless. This is the beauty of a marketplace. Currencies simply evolve even if you encourage bartering. You cant simultaneously make a currency worthwhile and yet not worth trading items for.
What would the point of magic find be if you can just buy everything? Hello... have you been paying attention? The point would be selling those fancy magic items for gold on the market and then using that gold to either buy better magic items, or to spend the money on whatever other way blizzard intends to make gold compelling to collect.
And you're wrong on china. China has banned gold farming in domestic games, not gold farming in general. The reason was to prevent in game currencies from overtaking Chinese currency in value. Most of the commercial gold farming conducted in china is conducted on US based servers. Being that that is the case, they are not bound by the Chinese anti gold farming regulation. There will probably be slightly less gold farming though, as I think sale of virtual items (gold) is now taxed by the Chinese government.
Starving_Poet
09-07-2009, 22:53
I make robots, you make pizza. I want pizza, but you have no need for my robots, so I sell my robots for money which I use to buy your pizza.
What is so hard to understand?
I make robots, you make pizza. I want pizza, but you have no need for my robots, so I sell my robots for money which I use to buy your pizza.
What is so hard to understand?
Yeah I know right? I think maybe the opposition doesn't understand the purpose of currency in the first place.
I think that people opposed to gold fail to understand that what they have been doing for years in diablo II (chips, SoJ's, pgems, HR's) are a form of currency that naturally arises out of a need to evolve out of a simple barter system that is too restricting. If Bliz makes gold sinks that are mandatory and expensive, then they start disappearing like every other consumable and will naturally become a currency. Methinks that people here should take Econ101.
I think that people opposed to gold fail to understand that what they have been doing for years in diablo II (chips, SoJ's, pgems, HR's) are a form of currency that naturally arises out of a need to evolve out of a simple barter system that is too restricting. If Bliz makes gold sinks that are mandatory and expensive, then they start disappearing like every other consumable and will naturally become a currency. Methinks that people here should take Econ101.
I don't think you have read the last pages, everyone knows that the currency was those things.
And for posts above yeah obviously you could go and find items and sell for gold to buy more items, but where did the very first people get the gold to buy the items? They farmed gold instead. So why go find items and sell for gold if you can find gold at a quicker rate thus just buying items without having to care about the selling process.
(Though farming for items is much more fun then farming gold, if your focus is to essentially have more gold, or get all your items at the quickest rate, then farm gold because it would mean its quicker than farming items that sell for gold), AND since in another thread people were complaining about having to kill for instnace meph 500 times to find items and wanted it so you find items from like all mobs...(which IMO is dumb but yeah) then not only can you just farm gold, but have a chance to find items at the same time.
So having gold as a currency ruins the trading system of D2 which is unique.
Gold had a purpose in D2 even, gambling... those rare rings / neck's / helms all could of been gambled to be better than any unique you could find(or anything, only thing that could of been equally as good was crafting them).
(I'm not purposing a gambling system like that cause really it was pretty boring to open/close menu 500 times and always just get those same 3 things, and the chances were way to low to get something not worth trading/selling to npc) but it still made a use for gold in D2 when everyone says it was worthless...
EDIT: All down
I'm just sayin that gold type currency is boring, it drops from every mob so essentially just kill 50000000 mobs and you will be rich.
Things like "randomness" or "Chance" should be added in to create a currency perhaps. (Or just item for item trades)
But I kinda like this idea, and I kinda this it's horribad because it could cause the worth of this currency I'm about to suggest could change drastically.
Items that were gonna call "Bone Stones" have a smallish chance to drop of all mobs, but certain mobs or boss' have a little bit better chance to drop them(just a little bit, I'm also not suggesting that boss' don't drop items.) So this would 1. Promote running an entire act or dungeon or w/e instead of trying to skip parts and 2. still make a reason to kill a boss
And with this "Bone Stones" you can turn them into an NPC either we can have 2 ways to do this. 1 way its a gamble, you have a chance to get high level items or medium level items or like pots. and/or the other way is you can turn in a certain amount for a guarantee of a certain type of item but the stats are still random, or like theres an option to turn in ALOT for a guaranteed high level item with good stats(maybe not the best? i dunno). But this allows the casual who just kills mobs to be able to get the same loot as the hardcore player... And it would definitely make this item be used as a currency.
For how many stone's the gamble costs, or how many you turn in for the other things would be dependent on w/e blizz decided the drop rate to be.
So I just thought of this, I don't know if maybe its a amazing idea. But I would prefer that the "Highest or Best" items don't have to be gained in this way I think. Maybe have most of the best stuff still drop from boss' or dungeon boss's. But at the same time if the boss's can drop things that are high level but not the best, or maybe equally good. It allows alot of things.
Like an argument might be "what if you keep doing it and never get that item you want" thats why this is also a currency, you can trade x amount of them for that item you want. And this also puts in a factor of "should I really trade x amount of these for x item if I can turn in this x amount for a chance to get x item" So you have to think, and decide what you really want to do?
Just an Idea it might suck, it might be goood. I dunno Make your own decision on it, just popped in my head. I like to gamble, its exciting, and always a surprise. You might get pissed at it once second, and love what you get the next.
NEW EDIT:
You could even use this system to have people who want to PvP and not have to focus to much on PvE to get gear by having a chance for a "Bone Stone" to drop off players you kill (% based off x amount of bone stone to get x, or gamble for x)
Maybe you could use it to reward those who killed someone a higher level then them to. For each level higher the % increases by a "small amount" the problem with this part is it could be exploited by friends who let a lvl 10 kill there naked bodyed lvl 90... etc. And even with a limit of like 5 or 10 levels they can still exploit it to give better chances.
They can even exploit free kills to each other constantly back and forth in a game for the chance for "Bone Stones" sooo some kind of way around this would need to be implemented but I havn't thought about it yet. Was just thinking about the PvP part while in shower xD
EDIT: All down
I'm just sayin that gold type currency is boring, it drops from every mob so essentially just kill 50000000 mobs and you will be rich.
Things like "randomness" or "Chance" should be added in to create a currency perhaps. (Or just item for item trades)
But I kinda like this idea, and I kinda this it's horribad because it could cause the worth of this currency I'm about to suggest could change drastically.
Items that were gonna call "Bone Stones" have a smallish chance to drop of all mobs, but certain mobs or boss' have a little bit better chance to drop them(just a little bit, I'm also not suggesting that boss' don't drop items.) So this would 1. Promote running an entire act or dungeon or w/e instead of trying to skip parts and 2. still make a reason to kill a boss
And with this "Bone Stones" you can turn them into an NPC either we can have 2 ways to do this. 1 way its a gamble, you have a chance to get high level items or medium level items or like pots. and/or the other way is you can turn in a certain amount for a guarantee of a certain type of item but the stats are still random, or like theres an option to turn in ALOT for a guaranteed high level item with good stats(maybe not the best? i dunno). But this allows the casual who just kills mobs to be able to get the same loot as the hardcore player... And it would definitely make this item be used as a currency.
For how many stone's the gamble costs, or how many you turn in for the other things would be dependent on w/e blizz decided the drop rate to be.
So I just thought of this, I don't know if maybe its a amazing idea. But I would prefer that the "Highest or Best" items don't have to be gained in this way I think. Maybe have most of the best stuff still drop from boss' or dungeon boss's. But at the same time if the boss's can drop things that are high level but not the best, or maybe equally good. It allows alot of things.
Like an argument might be "what if you keep doing it and never get that item you want" thats why this is also a currency, you can trade x amount of them for that item you want. And this also puts in a factor of "should I really trade x amount of these for x item if I can turn in this x amount for a chance to get x item" So you have to think, and decide what you really want to do?
Just an Idea it might suck, it might be goood. I dunno Make your own decision on it, just popped in my head. I like to gamble, its exciting, and always a surprise. You might get pissed at it once second, and love what you get the next.
so you want bone stones instead of gold? in your example, the bone stones may as well be gold, its the same thing with a different name.
Risingred
10-07-2009, 03:06
so you want bone stones instead of gold? in your example, the bone stones may as well be gold, its the same thing with a different name.
Exactly. Same with HRs or pgems. It isn't an item-for-item trade when you trade an HR for an item. Then you are effectively buying it and the HR is, in essence, gold.
so you want bone stones instead of gold? in your example, the bone stones may as well be gold, its the same thing with a different name.
Make gold drop off of every 500 mobs like a bone stone would(or less or more im just throwing out a number)
And sure gold would be fine. A major point of it is using something off every mob you find and always being a small amount compared to finding 1 thing off every x amount of mobs and having that 1 thing(or more depending on % drop rate) be able to be turned into something.
It is a much more exciting way to do it.
Now if gold dropped off of every 500 mobs and say gave you 1k gold, and a pot costs 1 gold to buy or something. Then thats fine(almost). But thats not how it is. So therefor gold has no exciting factor to it.
Its about the exciting factor while killing things, not the weee 20gold, weee 20g, weee 30g, weee 22g, only 200 more mobs till i have 10,000 gold till I can buy that item.
Instead of , 200 mob later(or more or less, its a % chance so it might take 1000 kills you might fine 3 within 200 kills) So it adds that exciting factor.
reminds me of a mitch hedburg joke about defining how many bedrooms are in a house.
"**** you real estate lady, this bedroom has an oven in it, this bedroom has a lot of people sitting in it watching tv, this bedroom is over in that guys house, 'sir, you got one of my bedrooms, are you aware?, don't decorate it.' "
call it what you want, in the end its just currency, just like how any room in a house can be a bedroom(even more so if you are drunk.)
Make gold drop off of every 500 mobs like a bone stone would(or less or more im just throwing out a number)
And sure gold would be fine. A major point of it is using something off every mob you find and always being a small amount compared to finding 1 thing off every x amount of mobs and having that 1 thing(or more depending on % drop rate) be able to be turned into something.
It is a much more exciting way to do it.
Now if gold dropped off of every 500 mobs and say gave you 1k gold, and a pot costs 1 gold to buy or something. Then thats fine(almost). But thats not how it is. So therefor gold has no exciting factor to it.
Its about the exciting factor while killing things, not the weee 20gold, weee 20g, weee 30g, weee 22g, only 200 more mobs till i have 10,000 gold till I can buy that item.
Instead of , 200 mob later(or more or less, its a % chance so it might take 1000 kills you might fine 3 within 200 kills) So it adds that exciting factor.
have you ever played wow? before they messed the game up by adding expansions, gold was a great currency, and it dropped off of most every mob(albeit copper or silver, but they eventually added up to gold).
if the game has gold sinks to keep it from inflating, then it can(and has) work.
Risingred
10-07-2009, 03:31
Its about the exciting factor while killing things, not the weee 20gold, weee 20g, weee 30g, weee 22g, only 200 more mobs till i have 10,000 gold till I can buy that item.
You are assuming a LOT.
You are assuming that there will be nothing to spend gold on other than items in an auction house.
You are assuming (somehow?) that the only way to make gold is by having it drop from monsters.
These are huge errors in logic.
You get 1,000 gold and you have some decisions to make if they add in item upgrading systems fueled by gold as at least a catalyst, which they are very likely to do.
Should you:
A. Get a new item to replace an old item.
B. Blow your wad on upgrading an old item.
C. Spend gold on some other type of thing.
D. Save the gold for future upgrades/AH purchase.
E. etc...
Why would you assume the only use for gold would be trading, nextt?
The whole "randomness" of gold is pointless, as it just results in a adjustment to the value based on randomness. The point is to have a liquid asset to trade. Whether it be SoJ's, chips, Pgems, HR's or Gold, it's all just currency and it's currency because it's useful OUTSIDE of what it is being traded for.
In the end, the value is going to be derived from how long it takes to farm the amount of items, not whether or not they drop off of every enemy or whatever.
For gold to be the currency blizzard has to put in compelling goldsinks (better than repairs and gambling.)
The compelling thing about a currency is finding that 10,000 gold and then you have a decision to make. Do you buy the item on the market you want, or do you use the gold for some other use (upgrade a Rune, Respec, upgrade an item, etc.)
The thing about using gold is it gives blizzard the most freedom in making a useful currency. Blizzard has the ability to put tons of compelling uses for gold in the game, and if they manage to do so, the more they put in the more robust it will be, and the more viable it will be as currency.
Blizzard could use something silly like "bonestones" or whatever, but it would just mean having another pointless currency, and them making sure they put in enough compelling uses for "bonestones" in the game, otherwise we're back to square one, with blizzard having little or no control over what is the currency and what is considered useful.
commonhumans
10-07-2009, 05:33
I regret making this thread.
CombatShrine
10-07-2009, 05:42
I hear ya commonhumans.
I don't see why there is so much debate over trifling matters in D3. Its the same with that CAPTCHA thread I made. People went bonkers over such an insignificant thing; same way with this auction house thread.
If they put auction houses/eBay style bidding up for items in-game, that would be awesome. If they don't, that's fine with me. I'll just continue using these boards for my trading needs.
satheron
10-07-2009, 05:51
K this isn't the same as an AH type thing unless they could make it that way, which everytime i've seen a game that involves the AI(computer / system) and 2 items being traded tend to have many errors. But if they can do that im down for it.
The forum trading is nothing like an AH. You talk back and forth, make offers in other item or hr/soj or w/e. Only difference between Diablo ingame trading and those is you get to be lazy about it and look at the forum once a day to see if someone responded. Thats totally fine, but it isn't the same as an AH unless they can get it to work like that, which I don't think they can.
Nextt I apologize for being this straight forward..but your flat out wrong saying forum sites like d2jsp aren't the same as Auctioning.
They USE an auction system to trade in the game, if you read any of the posts, its a player listing out the items they have... The player listing the items can choose a cap...or a "quick buy" meaning the someone can choose to go for the offer the player sets on the item...
Or the original poster shows his list of items or a item...and people respond by making offers until there is an offer that can't be topped.
Thats auctioning my friend.
WOW I had this whole thing written up and then something happened and made it poof zzzz.
Anyways ill make it short without the explanations then that prove my point that i had in my post that poofed when I hit post, and it just didn't post.
1. To everyone saying I'm assuming gold is only used for items im not, I just simply wasn't typing about the 500 things I think it will be used for. (Pots, putting the runething in your skill, upgradeing, etc etc and more)
2. To bliskist or w/e the spelling is im not looking back a page to see it.
Yes I played WoW both in vanilla and Up to ulduar , quit 3/4 way through naxx in vanilla, quit after naxx in wrath. My guild in Vanilla was Ministry in server kel'thuzad, then they changed there name to "Exodus" a top guild for a while and due to laggy kel'thuzad they then moved to Ysondre for ulduar, and here is previous achievements before Ulduar. (take note I didn't play BC until 2 months before wrath)
Previous achievements:
US first M'uru
US Horde first Kil'Jaeden
US Horde first Malygos
US Horde first 5 Min Malygos
US Horde first 3 drake sarth
and here is there Ulduar achievements but I didn't play during this.
Ulduar achievements:
US Horde first Mimiron
World first General Vezax
US Horde first Yogg-saron
US First hardmode Thorim
US First hardmode Freya
US Horde first hardmode Hodir
US Horde first hardmode Mimiron
US first one watcher Yogg-Saron
World first zero watcher Yogg-Saron
Yes they were world first for the hardest content in the game +0 Yogg, even if they had a bug happen that helped the win.
So yes I know currency worked in vanilla WoW, but it was still boring, and only worked because the best items were BoP, so essentially all you bought with gold was mats / consums.
3rd. to satheron, I had said in a previous post in this forum that I was ok with an AH if they used an item for item trading system or item for currency in the ah, AS LONG AS the currency isn't gold. (actually I even said it in the post you quoted -_- so now I don't even understand the point of your post)
And that is explained in my post on page 12.
I kind of agree about the issue with auction houses. With the auction houses only the rich will benefit since they can muscle their way through anything with money.
In a close and person trade you'll be able to find good deals within affordable range or make alternate offers or try to bargain with others.
Knight_Wolf
10-07-2009, 13:33
I kind of agree about the issue with auction houses. With the auction houses only the rich will benefit since they can muscle their way through anything with money.
In a close and person trade you'll be able to find good deals within affordable range or make alternate offers or try to bargain with others.
Not at all, with perosnal trading you are 200% more prone to being ripped off cause you might buy an item at much more that it's worth or sell stuff cheap dirt when they are worth much more ... there is no legitimate or good way to measure worth and you will certainly feel ripped off a lot ... not to mention no tangible market.
As for auction houses .. why would you ASSUME only the rich will offer things there or will be the only ones to buy things ... that's not true at all ... everyone will offer the items they have and don't need anymore (varying from blue items to unique ones) and everyone can buy in a competitive market where demand and offer controls the price .. if someone is offering good blue items at 8000 and another is offering at at 12000 people will go for the one selling for 8000.
The only problem see is a jerk with no life sitting there with loads of items and trying to ruin the game for other normal sellers by selling items at a cheap dirt price .. but it is only a minor issue ... and can happen in real life .. thus there are ways to avoid it and minimize its effect.
As for auction houses .. why would you ASSUME only the rich will offer things there or will be the only ones to buy things ... that's not true at all ... everyone will offer the items they have and don't need anymore (varying from blue items to unique ones) and everyone can buy in a competitive market where demand and offer controls the price .. if someone is offering good blue items at 8000 and another is offering at at 12000 people will go for the one selling for 8000.
The only problem see is a jerk with no life sitting there with loads of items and trying to ruin the game for other normal sellers by selling items at a cheap dirt price .. but it is only a minor issue ... and can happen in real life .. thus there are ways to avoid it and minimize its effect.
I agree with these parts, But it doesn't change that I don't want gold currency or an AH unless its item for item trade, Read all my previous posts in this thread and .
All will change there mind to fit mine!
2. To bliskist or w/e the spelling is im not looking back a page to see it.
Yes I played WoW both in vanilla and Up to ulduar , quit 3/4 way through naxx in vanilla, quit after naxx in wrath. My guild in Vanilla was Ministry in server kel'thuzad, then they changed there name to "Exodus" a top guild for a while and due to laggy kel'thuzad they then moved to Ysondre for ulduar, and here is previous achievements before Ulduar. (take note I didn't play BC until 2 months before wrath)
Previous achievements:
US first M'uru
US Horde first Kil'Jaeden
US Horde first Malygos
US Horde first 5 Min Malygos
US Horde first 3 drake sarth
and here is there Ulduar achievements but I didn't play during this.
Ulduar achievements:
US Horde first Mimiron
World first General Vezax
US Horde first Yogg-saron
US First hardmode Thorim
US First hardmode Freya
US Horde first hardmode Hodir
US Horde first hardmode Mimiron
US first one watcher Yogg-Saron
World first zero watcher Yogg-Saron
Yes they were world first for the hardest content in the game +0 Yogg, even if they had a bug happen that helped the win.
So yes I know currency worked in vanilla WoW, but it was still boring, and only worked because the best items were BoP, so essentially all you bought with gold was mats / consums.
3rd. to satheron, I had said in a previous post in this forum that I was ok with an AH if they used an item for item trading system or item for currency in the ah, AS LONG AS the currency isn't gold. (actually I even said it in the post you quoted -_- so now I don't even understand the point of your post)
And that is explained in my post on page 12.
first, grats on completely messing my name up, make me really want to take you seriously. Second, I never asked for a biography of your wow career, I was merely saying that the system that wow had for gold is a quality system, and could work for diablo 3, even without BoP items.
you just seem to have a biased hatred to gold, when in reality, you are suggesting other things that are the exact same thing, just with a different name.
and if you read back through the topic and find my first post, you will see that making an AH where you can buy things with not only gold would be plausible, if they can get the interface to work out.
^^I think he mixed your name with mine. I had a little discussion with him in a different thread yesterday. ;)
Steven Catogen
10-07-2009, 15:57
The only people that are in support of backwards systems such as barter economies are the ones with terrible attitudes that favor such systems because they allow them to rip off others. This thread makes this statement self evident.
And now the question. Why should anyone care about their feelings?
I will take the gold economy for 600 Alex.
I've always hated trading in Diablo 2. It is just such a pain and a pointless time sink. An auction house would be appreciated!
Knight_Wolf
10-07-2009, 19:26
Here is a suggestion for a pseudo-auction house (actually not an auction house but does the same job).
Any player can leave a sort of Trade note including:
-The item he want to trade (all people who check the note can view it and see its stats) .. which is deposited to a trade NPC as soon as the trade note creation is complete.
-What you want in return whether it is another item (you can leave a general text description for what kind of item you might want in return) .. or of course how much gold you want for it .. gold can be a set amount or a Bid.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-In order to leave a note you need to create a Trade town instance and enter it .. then talk with an NPC that is always there to leave the note details with him/her .. all other players who want to create or check trading notes will do the same.
-All players on your realm can check trading noted left by other players note whether they are online or offline (it's few bytes and much smaller than the data space required to store your own character on B.net server ... so no big deal here)
-Whenever a player enters any trading town (small instance made specially for trade) he can check your note and all notes of other players in the realm (Basically all instances of Trade towns have access to all notes left on the realm on all other trade town instances) .. besides of course regular trading first hand with other online players in the same trade town instance as well.
-Aside from normal gold-to-item trading notes (first come first served paying system) there can be special bidding notes with extra options that allow the player to set a bidding price and an end date for the bid to end it automatically.
Let's check an example:
Tom doesn't need his "blue magic iron gauntlets" any more .. he wants to offer it to the highest bidder ... so he enters a town instance and leaves behind a note with the item and some text saying "will be sold for the highest bidder ... starting price is 5000 .. bid ends in two days" (Bid countdowns timers end automatically) .. he deposits the item to the trade NPC and then leaves the town and exits the game.
After two days he returns to the game .. creates and enters a trade town instance and checks the Bid note he left, he finds that he had 15 bidders with the highest being 12000, he confirms that he accepts the bid result and he receives the amount of gold specified (which was payed by the bidder during the bid) and the item is sent to the winning bidder (if he was offline he will receive it as soon as he logs on).
Tom takes the gold and check the notes left by other players .... he finds (10 active Bids / 120 trade notes item-to-item / 230 trade notes item-to-gold), he checks the item-to-gold notes and picks one of them that has an item he wants (a new gauntlet with 8000g as a set price for first payer) then deposits the money and receives the item instantly .... after that he walks away from the trade NPC and finds that three people entered his trade town instance and want item-to-item trade ... he engages in trade with them and comes out with even a better gauntlet which he traded for the one he just got plus some gold.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
And to put a control valve on the number of notes and to make a gold sink it can be made that you need to pay more gold to increase the number of notes you can leave regarding items you want to trade.
(note that normal typical D2 trading is still possible the same inside or outside trade town instances)
How is that ?
Nexxt, you fail to understand that GOLD IS AN ITEM, just like everything else. Play D2, and then tell me what you trade the most of. It will be either gems, runes, keysets, or SoJs. Why do you accept these items when you will most likely not use them for anything else but to trade to another player? BECAUSE THEY ARE A CURRENCY, just like gold is in other games. gems and runes fall often enough for people off of mobs and quests to use them as such.
take away the item currently known as gold from D2. To repair items, you need to use gems and runes (via cube). Now, you have a steady supply of these items (forge quest, countess, almost every mob drops some kind of gem). You have your gem/rune fountains. You also have your sinks (repair, runewords, rerolls, sockets, cube recipes).
Now replace the words Gems and Runes with the word GOLD. It's the same thing. You and everyone else NEED to get out of this mentality that D3 will make every monster drop thousands of gold, and the only way to spend it is on repairs and revives. Gold will be just as hard to find as any other item, and it will have more uses then just repairing.
Risingred
10-07-2009, 21:42
I regret making this thread.
Why? It's been an interesting discussion, in my opinion.
Besides, losers like me have nothing better to do until september. :p
satheron
11-07-2009, 06:45
Oh wow..I apologize nextt, I grossly misread that >.> I have had my foot in my mouth for the past few hours >.<
alphaalieria
11-07-2009, 16:46
Having read much of this thread over the past week or two, I have to honestly wonder about the motivation of those that are so against the concept of an AH. It makes items cheaper AND more available!
On another note, the item for item "note system" (or w/e) has its merits, but I for one would not want to see such a system b/c there is nothing to stop people from spamming your items with cheap crap in the hopes you'll hit okay on accident. I wouldn't want to go through 1 chip for your HoZ (as an example) 10 times for every legit trade offer I got.
Knight_Wolf
12-07-2009, 01:27
On another note, the item for item "note system" (or w/e) has its merits, but I for one would not want to see such a system b/c there is nothing to stop people from spamming your items with cheap crap in the hopes you'll hit okay on accident.
Well, that's no reason to "not" implement a system like that that will make trade more accessible to all people specially those who like to trade item for item, you just need to pay attention to what you are trading.
Just add a confirmation window for accepting the trade within the note and everything will be fine... yeah sure some people are desperate like you say but they are exceptions and shouldn't hinder the game development or implementation of better systems for trade or whatever.
RogueJuggalo
12-07-2009, 18:10
I don't think you have read the last pages, everyone knows that the currency was those things.
And for posts above yeah obviously you could go and find items and sell for gold to buy more items, but where did the very first people get the gold to buy the items? They farmed gold instead. So why go find items and sell for gold if you can find gold at a quicker rate thus just buying items without having to care about the selling process.
(Though farming for items is much more fun then farming gold, if your focus is to essentially have more gold, or get all your items at the quickest rate, then farm gold because it would mean its quicker than farming items that sell for gold), AND since in another thread people were complaining about having to kill for instnace meph 500 times to find items and wanted it so you find items from like all mobs...(which IMO is dumb but yeah) then not only can you just farm gold, but have a chance to find items at the same time.
So having gold as a currency ruins the trading system of D2 which is unique.
Gold had a purpose in D2 even, gambling... those rare rings / neck's / helms all could of been gambled to be better than any unique you could find(or anything, only thing that could of been equally as good was crafting them).
(I'm not purposing a gambling system like that cause really it was pretty boring to open/close menu 500 times and always just get those same 3 things, and the chances were way to low to get something not worth trading/selling to npc) but it still made a use for gold in D2 when everyone says it was worthless...
EDIT: All down
I'm just sayin that gold type currency is boring, it drops from every mob so essentially just kill 50000000 mobs and you will be rich.
Things like "randomness" or "Chance" should be added in to create a currency perhaps. (Or just item for item trades)
But I kinda like this idea, and I kinda this it's horribad because it could cause the worth of this currency I'm about to suggest could change drastically.
Items that were gonna call "Bone Stones" have a smallish chance to drop of all mobs, but certain mobs or boss' have a little bit better chance to drop them(just a little bit, I'm also not suggesting that boss' don't drop items.) So this would 1. Promote running an entire act or dungeon or w/e instead of trying to skip parts and 2. still make a reason to kill a boss
And with this "Bone Stones" you can turn them into an NPC either we can have 2 ways to do this. 1 way its a gamble, you have a chance to get high level items or medium level items or like pots. and/or the other way is you can turn in a certain amount for a guarantee of a certain type of item but the stats are still random, or like theres an option to turn in ALOT for a guaranteed high level item with good stats(maybe not the best? i dunno). But this allows the casual who just kills mobs to be able to get the same loot as the hardcore player... And it would definitely make this item be used as a currency.
For how many stone's the gamble costs, or how many you turn in for the other things would be dependent on w/e blizz decided the drop rate to be.
So I just thought of this, I don't know if maybe its a amazing idea. But I would prefer that the "Highest or Best" items don't have to be gained in this way I think. Maybe have most of the best stuff still drop from boss' or dungeon boss's. But at the same time if the boss's can drop things that are high level but not the best, or maybe equally good. It allows alot of things.
Like an argument might be "what if you keep doing it and never get that item you want" thats why this is also a currency, you can trade x amount of them for that item you want. And this also puts in a factor of "should I really trade x amount of these for x item if I can turn in this x amount for a chance to get x item" So you have to think, and decide what you really want to do?
Just an Idea it might suck, it might be goood. I dunno Make your own decision on it, just popped in my head. I like to gamble, its exciting, and always a surprise. You might get pissed at it once second, and love what you get the next.
NEW EDIT:
You could even use this system to have people who want to PvP and not have to focus to much on PvE to get gear by having a chance for a "Bone Stone" to drop off players you kill (% based off x amount of bone stone to get x, or gamble for x)
Maybe you could use it to reward those who killed someone a higher level then them to. For each level higher the % increases by a "small amount" the problem with this part is it could be exploited by friends who let a lvl 10 kill there naked bodyed lvl 90... etc. And even with a limit of like 5 or 10 levels they can still exploit it to give better chances.
They can even exploit free kills to each other constantly back and forth in a game for the chance for "Bone Stones" sooo some kind of way around this would need to be implemented but I havn't thought about it yet. Was just thinking about the PvP part while in shower xD
The idea you just described is essentially gold's function in Diablo 2 - get gold and then you can use it to gamble. Why would anyone trade good items for a currency whose only purpose is to be gambled with in hopes of getting a good item? That's why gold failed so miserably in Diablo 2.
I'd also like to reinforce to you what everyone else has been saying: Regardless of the name, some item (whether it be sojs, psks, hrs, or gold) will have to become a currency. Gold makes the most sense and would be easiest to manage since it is a number on the inventory screen rather than 40 items taking up all the space in your inventory. You can not rule out gold as a currency simply because you, personally, do not like it ('it's boring' is a personal reason).
I just realized Nextt was banned. Awesome.
Lastly, I'd like to say that the 'note' or 'post' type system would not be as good as an auction house. It sounds to me like the idea is essentially an auction house except it has a more difficult interface. I agree that it would help for item-for-item trading but I think that it would be best to have a strong universal currency. If the note/post method was the way of trading I would still use diabloii.net for my trading in order to avoid the moronic posts that will inevitably be everywhere on battle.net
Knight_Wolf
12-07-2009, 19:11
Gold makes the most sense and would be easiest to manage since it is a number on the inventory screen rather than 40 items taking up all the space in your inventory.
Good point, indeed gold is the best choice for so many reasons, Blizz just needs to take the chance to make it viable by integrating it better into the game systems.
As an example Gold can be used for
-Make potions purchasable .. but very expensive.
-Gambling shop for items (that's a given i guess but still does need some revamping)
-Weapon and items crafting and customization can be an excellent gold sink
-Removing runes from skills and jewels from socketed weapons
-Customizing the character stats and respecing skills points
-Raising the a sKill points cap from 10 to 15
-Increasing the stash and inventory sizes
-Hiring and customizing mercs (or making advanced mercs who take payments from time to time)
-A survivial mode with entrance and exit fees.
-An arena for PVP should have some entrance fee .. and there could be betting on the official matches (with in-game gold of course).
Lastly, I'd like to say that the 'note' or 'post' type system would not be as good as an auction house. It sounds to me like the idea is essentially an auction house except it has a more difficult interface. I agree that it would help for item-for-item trading but I think that it would be best to have a strong universal currency. If the note/post method was the way of trading I would still use diabloii.net for my trading in order to avoid the moronic posts that will inevitably be everywhere on battle.net
It is as good (if not better) than an auction house when it comes to item for gold (buyer pays the amount of gold specified by seller in the note gets the item instantly) or for bidding (checking active bids and joining any of them on the fly).
It might be a little problematic for Item-to-item trading but in the end it is just an extra option .. people who don't like can still trade face to face or through forums.
ginerashon
13-07-2009, 12:20
Sorry but I had to make a post, I didn't read any of this thread other than the first page but.........Auction Houses would suck so much. I played/and will play 1.13 D2 just to hustle and that's what I enjoy....I love MFing until i finally find something good and turning that 1 item into more and more and more until im decked. That **** is so fun. If they add AH's there wil be no trading. That is just lame.....D2 is a good game for a reason don't change everything about the game just make improvements to areas:(
tetracycloide
13-07-2009, 15:27
Yes, let's all 'enjoy' an archaic system of item exchange so you can 'just hustle' other players. That's like saying we should just repeal all those annoying laws against fraud so con artists can swindle people because we don't want to take away their fun.
At least you're up front about your motives, others have hidden theirs behind meaningless multiple paragraph diatribes on currencies that aren't gold but are still currencies.
Take heart you griefers, you in game confidance men with your bernie madoff avatars, I'm sure that even if there is an auction house there will be little to no defense against cornering the market for commodity items so you'll still be able to turn a profit by being a tool and buying every offering of a commonly required item and relisting it at triple the price.
At least you're up front about your motives, others have hidden theirs behind meaningless multiple paragraph diatribes on currencies that aren't gold but are still currencies.
Haha that's the most diplomatic euphemism I've seen yet. :P
Twoflower
13-07-2009, 15:52
If they add AH's there wil be no trading.
Of course there will be trading. In a safe way.
Remember all the tons of ways that people could screw you for your items/runes in LoD ? Remember drop-trading with a sorc who teleports into the city from outside to pick up your items ?
The AH would be a good move. It would not only prevent tons of ways to scam people, it would also increase availability of th items. It would drasticly decrease trade spam. I am all for it :D
Starving_Poet
13-07-2009, 18:00
I think that anyone who doesn't believe that a currency-based game-economy can work, they need to get a trial account for EVE Online. EVE actually suffers from minor inflation issues, but those only apply to serious end-gamers.
Risingred
13-07-2009, 18:03
I played/and will play 1.13 D2 just to hustle and that's what I enjoy....
People like you are the reason why they won't have hostility/PK and a number of other things too, including the new drop system.
I'm sorry to hear that you won't be able to rip people off with a convoluted trading system that makes little-to-no-sense which is governed by "hack o' the day".
RogueJuggalo
13-07-2009, 22:29
Sorry but I had to make a post, I didn't read any of this thread other than the first page but.........Auction Houses would suck so much. I played/and will play 1.13 D2 just to hustle and that's what I enjoy....I love MFing until i finally find something good and turning that 1 item into more and more and more until im decked. That **** is so fun. If they add AH's there wil be no trading. That is just lame.....D2 is a good game for a reason don't change everything about the game just make improvements to areas:(
An auction house would still allow you to turn huge profits if you are intelligent and patient with it. If you're like me and enjoy trading then you will love the auction house because it makes it very easy to make legitimate profits in-game. However, if you get some sort of satisfaction from the act of ripping people off or scamming them then I can see why you'd be against an auction house.
An auction house would increase trading and create an in-game economy with the potential to be very powerful if there are enough good gold-sinks. With an auction house it is much easier to find buyers and sellers for a greater range of items. I would never bother to keep a Cathan's Ring or a the countless Sigon's pieces that drop, but if I could put them on an Auction House to sell then I totally would. In Diablo 2 I wouldn't because it would be better worth my time to pursue trading a more valuable item, however, with an Auction House I would be able to attempt to sell anything without 'wasting' time on less valuable items since you just post the item and go about your business.
Not at all, with perosnal trading you are 200% more prone to being ripped off cause you might buy an item at much more that it's worth or sell stuff cheap dirt when they are worth much more ... there is no legitimate or good way to measure worth and you will certainly feel ripped off a lot ... not to mention no tangible market.
As for auction houses .. why would you ASSUME only the rich will offer things there or will be the only ones to buy things ... that's not true at all ... everyone will offer the items they have and don't need anymore (varying from blue items to unique ones) and everyone can buy in a competitive market where demand and offer controls the price .. if someone is offering good blue items at 8000 and another is offering at at 12000 people will go for the one selling for 8000.
The only problem see is a jerk with no life sitting there with loads of items and trying to ruin the game for other normal sellers by selling items at a cheap dirt price .. but it is only a minor issue ... and can happen in real life .. thus there are ways to avoid it and minimize its effect.
Do you have a good point about being ripped off, I guess only the knowledgeable willbe the true victor of close and personal trade. But auction house as in putting up money to buy items? If that is the case then I still believe I'm correct about the rich muscling their way through deals with their fortune. However if you could put up items of multiple quantities as well as side deals then I guess auction houses would be fine.
Starving_Poet
13-07-2009, 23:03
I'm correct about the rich muscling their way through deals with their fortune. However if you could put up items of multiple quantities as well as side deals then I guess auction houses would be fine.
What prevents you from becoming rich?
@Starving_Poet
Dedication/Time.
I could become rich but it is difficult to strike a deal if the seller has so many more alternative customers. I forgot to specify the type of rich. I'm a casual player although I do play the game seriously whenever I have the time therefore I have a good stash of items. There are people though, who are hardcore dedicators that lurk trading websites as well as farm for hours which is something a normal player does not do. Those are the types of people that will benefit most.
If there was an auction house it would be too easy for sellers to take a particular/single strong item such as enigma (for example). You wouldn't be able to bargain with them saying they should trade with you instead of that other person.
Say this guy wants to trade his shako. Now there are two traders, me and GuyX. GuyX puts up an enigma. I put up multiple +HP/MP small charms as well as a mid rune. Since the trader (like most other players) drool over the Engima they wouldn't even consider my items and I could not bargain with them and tell them why my items are more beneficial than GuyX's enigma.
Starving_Poet
14-07-2009, 00:43
@Starving_Poet
Say this guy wants to trade his shako. Now there are two traders, me and GuyX. GuyX puts up an enigma. I put up multiple +HP/MP small charms as well as a mid rune. Since the trader (like most other players) drool over the Engima they wouldn't even consider my items and I could not bargain with them and tell them why my items are more beneficial than GuyX's enigma.
How is this any different than trading anything anywhere?
Lol apparently competitive bidding is a bad thing? I seriously don't get it here. Are people so afraid of the open market?
How is this any different than trading anything anywhere?
Instead of replying with a short sentence to make you look more intellectual please specify a bit for this old geezer.
@Mav451
I'll explain if you don't mind reading a story about it.
I used to play this game called MapleStory a long time ago. They didn't have an ingame auction house but one from an outside website. It has tons of people selling items and taking the largest bids. Whenever I stumbled across a particular item I like, I sometimes come short of cash. However the seller demands bids in GOLD and not items. The seller was selling it for 10K for example, I had an item which is easily worth 15k which I was willing to trade for. I have difficulty selling that item, despite it being powerful it was hardly used by anyone which is why I could not sell it, even if I could people offered a ridiculously low price for it. I thought that item would go great for the seller if he had it. If it was a personal trade I have a good chance of talking him into the trade but since its an auction house with gold only then I lost.
I have no problem with auction houses IF and ONLY IF it had these details:
-Allowed alternative bids, say you are willing to offer 10k gold for this item AND next to it you could have another item should he/she does not want the gold.
AND
-Allowed communication between buyer and seller.
LittleOldLady
14-07-2009, 08:02
I had an item which is easily worth 15k which I was willing to trade for. I have difficulty selling that item, despite it being powerful it was hardly used by anyone which is why I could not sell it, even if I could people offered a ridiculously low price for it.
But if there's no demand, the price drops. It's the same if there's an easy and convenient way to obtain something (e.g. SoJ in original D2, where it could be easily gambled) then the supply exceeds demand, and again the price drops. It seems that your item really wasn't worth 15k.
To make the Auction House less skewed by people with way too much money, just allow people to include a "buy it now" price. Then even casual gamers could get something without having to worry about someone else out-bidding you. Yes, you'll pay more than you're likely to at auction (in general), but you're guaranteed to "win". If it's optional, then those who don't urgently need cash for something else can wait until the auction gets high.
ginerashon
14-07-2009, 11:05
People like you are the reason why they won't have hostility/PK and a number of other things too, including the new drop system.
I'm sorry to hear that you won't be able to rip people off with a convoluted trading system that makes little-to-no-sense which is governed by "hack o' the day".
little to no sense? How is that even logical. Pretty sure half the people in the diablo world enjoy the trading system d2 has. You honestly think people play to level their characters or something and thats it?! lol
it's people like you that take my oxygen and it angers me
For me, in FF Online and in WoW, I had the most fun in the auction house. Easily.
The auction house is a great tool to add value to gold, or whatever a set currency would be. It doesn't kill trading. Even in WoW, you'll see straight-up trades, even during dungeon runs and stuff.
It's intuitive. It doesn't require just sitting around doing nothing but waiting. You don't have to be at the computer to use it.
So every joe shmoe will have the best gear without having to work for it? Then how the heck are they getting "money" for it? Do they just get handed money to buy things in the auction house?
You most certainly do not get instant gratification using the trade system in D2. Quite the opposite, especially later in your character's life when you're looking for something specific. At an AH, you can just browse for it. If someone has it, and they aren't in lobby, you obviously won't get a reply from them. And then you may not have something they want anyway. We need a set currency. That's why HR are traded.
I don't know how they would do it. They actually don't seem to be too keen on the idea, if one of those blizzcast things from JW were any indication, but this is the highest on my list of wishes for D3. It's just plain fun. It's great for me, because I like playing a set market, taking advantage of good times to sell items, good times to buy them, finding that kind of pattern and making tons of money in the game. :D
I suppose it could be in the lobby. I don't see why it would have to be in the game or why it would need a pre-requisite. You either have money or you don't, know what I mean?
Trading will never die, and an AH wouldn't kill it. I have yet to see any kind of remotely valid arguement against it, and you even admit that the trading in D2 was annoying.
If an auction house doesn't show up in D3 it's going to be a turn-off for me, the opposite of you. However, it would definitely not stop me from playing and would not kill replay value.
I don't care if they make the weapons out of rainbows and sunshine and it takes place in candy land. I would still be slapping down money on a pre-order and waiting impatiently as I am now.
+1
It was the second post i read and there is no need to say it all myself.
Steven Catogen
14-07-2009, 13:42
Pretty sure half the people in the diablo world enjoy the trading system d2 has.
I refuse to believe this on the grounds that it bodes ill for the future of humanity. Complete with Queen of Wands references.
it's people like you that take my oxygen and it angers me
...Know what, I'm not even going to go there.
little to no sense? How is that even logical. Pretty sure half the people in the diablo world enjoy the trading system d2 has. You honestly think people play to level their characters or something and thats it?! lol
it's people like you that take my oxygen and it angers me
This guy is probably Nextt who had a second account and circumventing his ban. No way someone would randomly walk in and be this hostile. The oxygen comment in itself is mind-boggling.
TarnishedHope
14-07-2009, 14:46
Say this guy wants to trade his shako. Now there are two traders, me and GuyX. GuyX puts up an enigma. I put up multiple +HP/MP small charms as well as a mid rune. Since the trader (like most other players) drool over the Engima they wouldn't even consider my items and I could not bargain with them and tell them why my items are more beneficial than GuyX's enigma.
Soo, this is basically what you are saying.
Two people wanted the same thing. One person offered something of value, the other offered utter garbage. The first person got what he wanted, while the latter was brutally rejected.
Seriously? That seems about right to me.
Auction house is not a bad idea, but please, don't make it too automated. Provide the players a mean to list/showcase what they have for trade in an organized/non-time consuming manner, and, thereby, keeping the human factor in trading.
I'm not saying that the D2 trading system is not without its flaws, but let us not neglect its merits.
To those that decide to make a reference to WoW's auction house system, you seem to have forgotten something: World of Warcraft is a MMORPG, Diablo 3 is an ARPG. The best World of Warcraft items are all BoP, while most, if not all, Diablo III items will be BoE. It's impossible to acquire the best of everything through auction house on World of Warcraft, but it's more than probable on Diablo III. Not to mention all the flaws that came with the system: inflating specific goods, monopolizing the market, and/or hoarding valuables.
Obviously, the existance of a fully automated auction house would not in any way prevent people from hanging out in a trade channel where they make deals the old fashioned way. Anyone who actually enjoys this playstyle would be entirely able to continue using it.
An automated, gold-based auction house would simply provide an option for others - the majority of players, I suspect. It would make trading accessible to everyday players and give a sense of value of items that one can consult at a glance without fear of brutal rejection.
Ill be honest, the D2 trade system was utterly unapproachable for me. People were rude, the channels were spammed, dupes made any legit trader very uncompetitive. I made perhaps two trades that I felt went well, and I still really disliked the experience. Just hanging in the channel made me stressed and anxious. I never had such a bad experience with a trading system in any MMORPG I played. Auction houses and a level of automation are great things.
TarnishedHope
14-07-2009, 15:06
Obviously, the existance of a fully automated auction house would not in any way prevent people from hanging out in a trade channel where they make deals the old fashioned way. Anyone who actually enjoys this playstyle would be entirely able to continue using it.
An automated, gold-based auction house would simply provide an option for others - the majority of players, I suspect. It would make trading accessible to everyday players and give a sense of value of items that one can consult at a glance without fear of brutal rejection.
Ill be honest, the D2 trade system was utterly unapproachable for me. People were rude, the channels were spammed, dupes made any legit trader very uncompetitive. I made perhaps two trades that I felt went well, and I still really disliked the experience. Just hanging in the channel made me stressed and anxious. I never had such a bad experience with a trading system in any MMORPG I played. Auction houses and a level of automation are great things.
Actually, it would. Trading personally would be utterly pointless with a fully automated auction house. Apparently, you're missing the meaning of the term "fully automated".
If you think using gold will make everything more accessible to players, you are probably brutally mistaken. Expect unrealistic number on anything worthwhile. If the system is implemented, I wouldn't be surprise to see items costing upward to 100,000,000,000.
Once again, neither Diablo II nor Diablo III is considered a MMORPG. Furthermore, I was as legit as it goes, and I was not "uncompetitive".
...are you implying that you expect dupes to return in Diablo III?
From what I see, you based your entire DII trading experience from AFTER dupes/third party program ruined the game. That is hardly the right perspective to be reviewing the system from.
This guy is probably Nextt who had a second account and circumventing his ban. No way someone would randomly walk in and be this hostile. The oxygen comment in itself is mind-boggling.
Except that his join date is July 2008 and he actually make a lot of sense and is well articulate if you bother to read his other posts.
Actually, it would. Trading personally would be utterly pointless with a fully automated auction house. Apparently, you're missing the meaning of the term "fully automated".
If you think using gold will make everything more accessible to players, you are probably brutally mistaken. Expect unrealistic number on anything worthwhile. If the system is implemented, I wouldn't be surprise to see items costing upward to 100,000,000,000.
Once again, neither Diablo II nor Diablo III is considered a MMORPG. Furthermore, I was as legit as it goes, and I was not "uncompetitive".
...are you implying that you expect dupes to return in Diablo III?
From what I see, you based your entire DII trading experience from AFTER dupes/third party program ruined the game. That is hardly the right perspective to be reviewing the system from.
Why why why are people so fully ingrained in the misconception that gold in diablo III will be as devalued as in diablo II? This is the sole reason why SO MANY people have talked about gold sinks. You decrease the amount of gold that is dropped, so that even level 99 monsters in hell drop less then hundreds of gold, you add money sinks to everything, skill and stat allocation, upgrades, repairs, revives, etc. and suddenly, MONEY IS VALUABLE.
Actually, it would. Trading personally would be utterly pointless with a fully automated auction house.
It would still work though. Adding an auction house gives you another OPTION. A better one, maybe, but if its so superior a system, then I wonder why we're debating it at all. Obviously some people would prefer no auction house, and the point is, these people could still hang in chat and make private trades in private games.
If your point is that people ought to be denied a superior trade mechanism so that they are forced to deal with a D2-like system, then all I can say is that I'm glad you're not designing the game. Adding new options doesn't take anything away from someone who wants to do things the old way.
Really its a win-win, except for those who want to impose their play style on others; and these people aren't those we want to cater to.
It would still work though. Adding an auction house gives you another OPTION. A better one, maybe, but if its so superior a system, then I wonder why we're debating it at all. Obviously some people would prefer no auction house, and the point is, these people could still hang in chat and make private trades in private games.
If your point is that people ought to be denied a superior trade mechanism so that they are forced to deal with a D2-like system, then all I can say is that I'm glad you're not designing the game. Adding new options doesn't take anything away from someone who wants to do things the old way.
Really its a win-win, except for those who want to impose their play style on others; and these people aren't those we want to cater to.
QFT. I agree with this 100%
@Valamyr
Just as long as the auction house is more flexible than "place your gold, you won, you get item." But I do believe that 90% of people use auction house as their primary trade method which will slowly leave the personal trade in the dust as people tend of follow the majority because the auction house is "easier" as in you don't need bargaining skills and you don't have to wait for people to join your game to trade. I know I'm overstressing this but, as long as the auction house isn't betting gold only, but allows communication or side bets with items instead then I'm fine with it.
But if there's no demand, the price drops. It's the same if there's an easy and convenient way to obtain something (e.g. SoJ in original D2, where it could be easily gambled) then the supply exceeds demand, and again the price drops. It seems that your item really wasn't worth 15k.
To make the Auction House less skewed by people with way too much money, just allow people to include a "buy it now" price. Then even casual gamers could get something without having to worry about someone else out-bidding you. Yes, you'll pay more than you're likely to at auction (in general), but you're guaranteed to "win". If it's optional, then those who don't urgently need cash for something else can wait until the auction gets high.
You do have a valid point about the supply and demand but...
The item I was selling is a Scroll of Blunt Weapon power up. It basically increases the damage of blunt weapons as well as adding additional stats, there are also Scroll of Sword power up (eqivalent of Scroll of Blunt Weapon power up, but for swords) which is worth a very large amount of money. The Sword power up works just as well as the scroll power up, that if you have a sword user and blunt weapon user, both are going to get the same benefit if they used it. The problem is only few people uses the blunt weapon in Maple Story the value of the scroll is still there, I do take into account that since less people use it I should lower the price, which I did. Remember that a rare item is still a rare item. An Arioc's needle (Spear that gives +4skills I believe) for example, no one really uses it but does that mean its worth the same as a Sparkling Mail (armor that adds lit res+lit dmg)? You're also right about the winning part if you have more gold but like I said I don't always have the money, since money pure currency its going to be my asset that gets used up the most/fastest. I'm also willing to trade items that are quite easy to sell but still worth more than the cash that the seller wanted, its just that I don't have the time to sell it so he could take investment in that item of mine and try to sell it for more or less.
Soo, this is basically what you are saying.
Two people wanted the same thing. One person offered something of value, the other offered utter garbage. The first person got what he wanted, while the latter was brutally rejected.
Seriously? That seems about right to me.
HP/MP charms aren't utter crap. If you're going to trade multiple item make sure it has use for the other person and that it works well all together (like set items, small charms, skill grand charms, etc) has well have a good individual value.
I do agree with your other statement, I don't want the auction house to be automated either. I want it to have communication function within that auction house as well as more flexibility than just placing gold and bam bam you won.
Starving_Poet
14-07-2009, 18:03
Instead of replying with a short sentence to make you look more intellectual please specify a bit for this old geezer.
Instead of the passive aggressive ad hominem attacks, tell me how your example is any different than the status quo?
Trading is trading. I have x, you have y - we barter so that I can have y and you can have x. But to facilitate this and open up the market to more people, instead of the cumbersome trouble of finding someone who wants what I have, we use 'currency'. The market simply facilitates this.
HP/MP charms aren't utter crap. If you're going to trade multiple item make sure it has use for the other person and that it works well all together (like set items, small charms, skill grand charms, etc) has well have a good individual value.
They are if you don't want them. No matter what YOU think they are worth, that is irrelevant if no one wants them.
Instead of the passive aggressive ad hominem attacks, tell me how your example is any different than the status quo?
Sorry that I'm unable to comprehend what you want me to say as well as being under the impression that you're trying to be an rude by the acting cool. I've seen people like that all the time who replies to my one paragraph thread with a "so?" or "what's your point?" though I clearly described it. I'll ask again, I genuinely don't understand what you want me to say so please add depth to your question.
Trading is trading. I have x, you have y - we barter so that I can have y and you can have x. But to facilitate this and open up the market to more people, instead of the cumbersome trouble of finding someone who wants what I have, we use 'currency'. The market simply facilitates this.
They are if you don't want them. No matter what YOU think they are worth, that is irrelevant if no one wants them.
An open market is fine so as long as it *sigh* allows side bids and communication between traders. Sorry I just have to keep repeating it. If a person puts up an item for trade adding in currency is effective but being able to add items helps too, the item could be retraded for better price or could be of use to the seller so it saves him/her the trouble of looking for it.
Of course I don't just throw in any random item I think is worth a lot when trading. If I'm trading with a person using a level 30 smiter, I ask him if he is still working on it, if yes then I make the alternative Hit Recovery Sc or ask him if there is anything else he might need besides X item.
Starving_Poet
14-07-2009, 18:26
An open market is fine so as long as it *sigh* allows side bids and communication between traders. Sorry I just have to keep repeating it. If a person puts up an item for trade adding in currency is effective but being able to add items helps too, the item could be retraded for better price or could be of use to the seller so it saves him/her the trouble of looking for it.
I don't understand what exactly you are arguing against. None of this would be prevented with an Auction House. Forum trading will still exist, trade games will still exist, trade channels will still exist. The Auction House would simply add another level.
I'll say it again - play EVE Online. Look at that market system - it works, it's MASSIVE and it's *gasp* self-regulating.
Why do you want to limit people's choices?
CombatShrine
14-07-2009, 19:54
I don't see why there is debate over the use of a currency. That is entirely for another thread. You don't need a currency to make an auction house idea work.
Just look at the trade threads on here. There isn't any currency (except for lower pgem trades). It can be argued that runes are currency, but the value of the higher runes of subjective due to the different levels of backing they receive from rune words. Its just "i offer 3 dkeys" then someone says "i offer 2 dkey + pul" and so on and so forth.
When the offers are close, or there is alot of variety in what is being offered, the seller then posts "person X is in the lead."
Currency makes things go a little smoother (since then there is no need for the seller to comment on who is winning... it is obvious since more money = better), but is not necessary.
And why so much argument over whether it is gold or not? It is a superifical thing. It could be wampum beads for all practical purposes o_O
A good AH currency could be "trade bars" that can be brought both with gold or by turning in common valuable items at an NPC (pgems, etc), AND that can be used to purshase equivalent gold and common valuable items.
Such a trade bar could easily be made to have substantial value, and it could be tiered. (bronze, silver and gold bars maybe). If a gold bar is worth a million gold, 25 pgems, or an high rune, for example, nobody would have any problem considering it as a worthwhile currency. And it would allow a hands-free AH to work smoothly.
Hell even channel traders would end up considering it worth trading for.
Risingred
14-07-2009, 22:24
A good AH currency could be "trade bars" that can be brought both with gold or by turning in common valuable items at an NPC (pgems, etc), AND that can be used to purshase equivalent gold and common valuable items.
Such a trade bar could easily be made to have substantial value, and it could be tiered. (bronze, silver and gold bars maybe). If a gold bar is worth a million gold, 25 pgems, or an high rune, for example, nobody would have any problem considering it as a worthwhile currency. And it would allow a hands-free AH to work smoothly.
Hell even channel traders would end up considering it worth trading for.
Not a bad idea, really, because it'd be pretty easy to mistake a zero here or there on an item in auction and get screwed out of 100k gold or whatever.
This is assuming that you'll be carrying drastically large amounts of gold like in Diablo II, though.
Starving_Poet
14-07-2009, 22:35
Not a bad idea, really, because it'd be pretty easy to mistake a zero here or there on an item in auction and get screwed out of 100k gold or whatever.
This is assuming that you'll be carrying drastically large amounts of gold like in Diablo II, though.
I think it's just an unnecessary step.
You'll only ever make that extra zero mistake once, trust me.
Risingred
14-07-2009, 22:42
I think it's just an unnecessary step.
You'll only ever make that extra zero mistake once, trust me.
I've done it numerous times in other online games. I know it's my fault for not paying as much attention as I should but it does happen.
Hopefully you're right and it is unnecessary, because the numbers won't be so huge.
tetracycloide
15-07-2009, 16:21
A good AH currency could be "trade bars" that can be brought both with gold or by turning in common valuable items at an NPC (pgems, etc), AND that can be used to purshase equivalent gold and common valuable items.
There's really two ideas here, first that gold can be used as a currency and second the NPC commodity trader. An NPC commodity trader, an NPC that buys and sells common items that everyone values equally reguardless of builds (like p-gems and pul/um/mal/ist runes and to a much lesser extend high runes from diablo 2), would offer much higher throughput on commonly traded commodity type items and if set up correctly could fluctuate in price over time but limit the ability of rich players to buy all of one commodity off the auction house and relist them at 5x the going rate aka cornering the market. This style of trader for abudant and useful items is present in a number of other games and would be a welcome addition to D3 in my eyes.
I don't see much point, however, in having trade bars and gold. Why not just have mosters drop trade bars instead of gold?
Just as long as the auction house is more flexible than "place your gold, you won, you get item." But I do believe that 90% of people use auction house as their primary trade method which will slowly leave the personal trade in the dust as people tend of follow the majority because the auction house is "easier" as in you don't need bargaining skills and you don't have to wait for people to join your game to trade.
That really depends on how it is set up. In wow, as an example, a player was better off manually (read: spaming trade channel and bargaining) trading big ticket items becuase there was a fee to list items proportional to the price the item was being listed for as well as a fairly short time limit. I know when i got my first krol blade back in vanilla I didn't want to spend money selling it when i could just trade the item myself. So it's not entirely accurate to say that the auction house will leave personal trade in the dust no matter what, just eliminate personal trades for items that move quickly.
Meglomania
15-07-2009, 18:33
You can implement a trade system using the Battle.net Channels, Something like this,
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e157/Meense/diablo3example.jpg
Something simple in trade that could be implemented easily
Risingred
15-07-2009, 18:43
Meglomania, I don't agree with your idea but I think it's really cool that you actually made a visual aid to explain it. Some of the ideas in this thread are so convoluted that I can't really imagine them working.
I personally wouldn't use this type of interface because, at any given moment, I'd rather be playing than waiting in trade chat.
What you propose is basically an auction house that requires you to be the auctioneer, with side-item trading.
RogueJuggalo
15-07-2009, 20:58
One thing that needs to be straightened out that I keep reading in this thread is this - Gold would be the best currency. Other ideas for a currency that is not gold, although usually pretty creative, are not viable ideas for the game. The reasons why have been beaten to death, so read the entire thread before suggesting one. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to keep things on topic to avoid constantly repeating things and spamming the thread.
I'd also like to say that (I can't remember who said it and I didn't quote it, my bad) a currency is required for an auction house and it is better than bartering with items. Here's why:
In Diablo 2 there are a lot of currencies, pgems, puls/ums, hrs, 20 life scs, etc. Things like pgems and runes are fantastic as currency because they are expendable (in runewords and in rerolling) so they have their 'gold sinks' already. However, the flaw with having various currencies is that it's a pain in the *** to exchange them into a form that a seller wants. If you have pgems as currency and the seller wants hrs for his items, you can't make that trade until you 'exchange' the currency.
Gold would be a universal currency. It would need to be used more frequently and for a greater variety of things than runes or pgems are used for so that way it is useful to everyone.
As for adding items to the trade, you could always message the seller if they are online and try to make a deal. Trading items wouldn't matter as much because why trade items of more value for items of less value? Sell them more valuable item for gold then buy the item you need so that you can buy the other item and have some leftover gold to spare too. If time is of the essence and you don't wanna wait to get the items actual value on the auction house, just list it really cheap and someone like me will buy it almost instantly then re-list it at a higher price to make a quick buck. win-win-win
It's also been brought up several times that an auction house would eliminate player interaction. That's 100% false for reasons already discussed in this thread.
For a real life example - look at Europe and the Euro. They got tired of exchanging currencies and made one universal and it's awesome and easy to go to different countries there. Think of the Franc as a pgem, the pound as a hr, etc. They could all be valued against one another systematically but it was just easier and better to go with the Euro.
I personally am all for no longer having to exchange pgems for puls, puls for ums, ums for hrs, hrs for whatever item it is that I want. Let's just have gold so that it is easier to buy junk and easier to sell junk. Throw an auction house into the equation too and I'm an even happier guy. Fast, easy, efficient, effective trade with no bull.
This has already been done on trading sites too. From fg to threads here in Dii (where they put a number next to the item to assign it a value to be evaluated on. Like pgem [1] ral rune [3] etc. You know what I mean if you trade here.. I hope :p)
Sorry for not organizing my post and editing it to make it read nicely, but I'm a little frustrated by the people not taking the time to read/follow the thread before posting things already covered. I hope the ideas are becoming more clear with each of my posts. That's my goal.
I don't understand what exactly you are arguing against. None of this would be prevented with an Auction House. Forum trading will still exist, trade games will still exist, trade channels will still exist. The Auction House would simply add another level.
I'll say it again - play EVE Online. Look at that market system - it works, it's MASSIVE and it's *gasp* self-regulating.
Why do you want to limit people's choices?
Before I answer that, I'd like to remind that we don't know whether D3 will be barter based or gold based when it comes to trading (Blizzard claimed they'll put more emphasis on gold but we'll never know for sure)
I have 2 seperate replies (pick one that matches your argument):
If D3 will be using gold as primary source of currency, as in you could use it to buy rare items:
Auction houses would take over the trading system. That is the real thing that "limit poeple's choices" -Starving_Poet. If all you could do is trade gold and not items, then you'll lose the flexibility of trading and item when used in trade, would lose much of its value so it'd be better to sell it and convert the item's value into gold. Forum trading and trade channels would be substantially less active. People are lazy, which is a fact. Hardly anyone is going to put out their time to look around for customers, they'd rather have the customers look for them through auction houses. Since auction houses accepts gold only it
If D3 is a balance of barter base and good emphasis on using gold then:
Auction houses are fine, so as long as it supports trading gold AND items. You're right about having other website that can do barter, but do you think people will like to visit multiple sites for their daily trades. There need to be one website that incorporates barter and gold. This is my focus right here, being able to barter/sell/buy all in one website/feature as well as having both barter/monetary system having roughly equal relevance. Instead of having the the auctioneer look only at those with the highest bid, there could be a system for alternative bids that allows them to overlook gold if the side bid includes items. To put it simple and short, bids with the from highest goes to top of the list, lowest goes on the bottom, and below each bid you could have a small box to type in whatever you want like "I also have a SoJ if 10k isn't enough". That saves the confusing hassle of the spammings of offers but more flexibility than just gold.
Starving_Poet
15-07-2009, 23:25
Auction houses would take over the trading system. That is the real thing that "limit poeple's choices" -Starving_Poet. If all you could do is trade gold and not items, then you'll lose the flexibility of trading and item when used in trade, would lose much of its value so it'd be better to sell it and convert the item's value into gold. Forum trading and trade channels would be substantially less active. People are lazy, which is a fact. Hardly anyone is going to put out their time to look around for customers, they'd rather have the customers look for them through auction houses. Since auction houses accepts gold only it
From experience, I have to disagree. And again, I'll point to my years of experience in EVE-Online which has one of the largest economies of any game.
The 'isk' (gold) is the primary currency, anything can be bought in-game through contracts and the market (their equivalent of an auction house) and yet they have a very, VERY active forum and trade channel segment. Not only that but in-game one can set up a contract using currency, using items, or even a mixture of both:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/w/images/2/2f/Contracts_Link_11.jpg
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=channel&channelID=109597
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=channel&channelID=109595
Barter and gold can exist simultaneously - and people who are too 'lazy' to use the forums / trade channels if auction houses work are too lazy to use them now.
RogueJuggalo
15-07-2009, 23:56
That saves the confusing hassle of the spammings of offers but more flexibility than just gold.
That creates more hassle because now instead of instantly getting the best offer in gold, you now have to sacrifice play time to sift through tons of offers that include items. The game won't be able to automatically/accurately associate a gold value with items, so instead of looking at your auction and seeing 'oh look, someone bid 100 gold, awesome!' you have to sort through X amount of offers that also include various items.
Your idea actually creates spam. I'd especially hate it if I had many auctions going at once. My attitude is this: just give me the gold, if I want the items I'll buy them on the auction house. If you really want to try to barter, just message me.
Gold alone is the most flexible. Having to convert random items to currency is a hassle. Having to convert one form of currency into another form of currency is a hassle.
I think people overlook or don't visualise how an Auction House would turn out in Diablo III.
In D II we have ladders, and as soon as the rush is over, games with free stuff start to appear. As nothing is bound to a character items will accumulate very fast. And as such will end up being dumped on the AH, inflating prices very fast.
Need a Skullders? well theres 30 of them for 50 cents each on the Auction House. And no free games left of course.
What can be done to stop that? Nothing really except getting the MMOitis, making bind on pickup, boss specific loot tables and a difficulty increase that only allows few to reach certain endbosses.
Away with all that, if you complain you don't have the time, realise giving you everything is infact the same as taking everything away from the guy who worked for all he got.
Nonsense you say and he is a nerd btw and I feel good he looses all his so I can get a chance to gloat? Well give every man in the world a billion dollar.
That won't make them rich, that will make them all poor.
Risingred
16-07-2009, 06:32
Felix, if an item is oversaturated in a market then it will stop appearing. In the case of Diablo III with an AH, people would vendor the item as it wouldn't be worth their time.
And, again, the dev team has stated that they want gold to have value which indicates a reliance on "necessary" gold sinks.
From experience, I have to disagree. And again, I'll point to my years of experience in EVE-Online which has one of the largest economies of any game.
The 'isk' (gold) is the primary currency, anything can be bought in-game through contracts and the market (their equivalent of an auction house) and yet they have a very, VERY active forum and trade channel segment. Not only that but in-game one can set up a contract using currency, using items, or even a mixture of both:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/w/images/2/2f/Contracts_Link_11.jpg
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=channel&channelID=109597
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=channel&channelID=109595
Barter and gold can exist simultaneously - and people who are too 'lazy' to use the forums / trade channels if auction houses work are too lazy to use them now.
Wait a minute you quoted my gold based system argument instead of my barter/gold but your topic is more towards my barter/gold?
Anyways, this is a bit off topic from the auction house is it not? You're talking about contracts which is different than auction houses.
That creates more hassle because now instead of instantly getting the best offer in gold, you now have to sacrifice play time to sift through tons of offers that include items. The game won't be able to automatically/accurately associate a gold value with items, so instead of looking at your auction and seeing 'oh look, someone bid 100 gold, awesome!' you have to sort through X amount of offers that also include various items.
Your idea actually creates spam. I'd especially hate it if I had many auctions going at once. My attitude is this: just give me the gold, if I want the items I'll buy them on the auction house. If you really want to try to barter, just message me.
Gold alone is the most flexible. Having to convert random items to currency is a hassle. Having to convert one form of currency into another form of currency is a hassle.
No that's not what I meant. I know this won't be confusing when I'll explain: The auction houses will be like normal, you bid gold. Highest bidder goes on top, lowest on bottom. However under each bid you're allowed a small text box to put in whatever want, from "hai i want ur nigma bad k thx" to "I'm willing to throw in a SoJ since I can't go any higher with gold". So the auctioneer has two options, 1. Go through all the bids and read the side text, 2. Just ignore the side text and go with highest gold bidder.
tetracycloide
16-07-2009, 23:35
And if they used an artful euphamism like 'w1ndfrc' instead because they ran out of characters or 'windforce here' was already taken? i'm all for having a search function for game names on close b-net but it's not a replacement for an auction house.
So my vote (as worthless as it is) goes for having an identical system to the D2 trading system, with more than 4 players per game (as is speculated for D3) and the "Search" function will ensure that everyone who has or wants a certain item will all be in the same place so prices will be more negotiable.
No offense but that's a ridiculous statement.
If the maximum number of people you can have bidding on your item is 4, it's not going to be a very efficient way to trade items.
The thing about auctions is they're better for both seller and buyer. Sellers can look through all the items and choose the best price. Sellers can know their items are getting maximum exposure to all the people who want the item.
If you make a game "windforce here" you can know that people joining your game will probably want a windforce, but, the maximum exposure you can have at any given time is 4 people. Which means it's still reduced to WUW WUG bartering and then leaving and creating more games hoping to get a different handful of players.
The encumberance of that system will just, once again, result in a website like... well you know, becoming the once again standard for trading, and blizzard will have the weight on their conscience of another group of people profiting from the fact that they did a very poor job implementing a trading function into the game.
** That is unless you're proposing games without player caps, but that seems a bit ridiculous and still cumbersome compared to an auction system.
Well if AH would be server limieted not game limited then number of people joining is no problem, when you log to BN you log with only one caracter at time.
And if i remember correctly in wow, minimal bid for item is it's selling price.
Starving_Poet
20-07-2009, 18:22
Wait a minute you quoted my gold based system argument instead of my barter/gold but your topic is more towards my barter/gold?
Anyways, this is a bit off topic from the auction house is it not? You're talking about contracts which is different than auction houses.
No, you are of the mindset that both can't exist simultaneously. That is in fact not true. Adn the picture was just an example. The contract system in EVE can do auctions, can do Want to Buy, can do direct item trades, can do items for gold, they can do item loans with collateral and they can be completely freeform. And ALL of this exists next to the old-fashioned forum item market.
In fact this system even facilitates the old way of trading because you can work everything out the old fashioned way - figure out terms and pricing, set up a contract with those terms for that specific person, and log off. When the person you're trading with gets online, they can fulfill their side of the deal and when you log back on, you simply claim the contract.
You might have the WoW Auction House stuck in your head, but this sort of centralized in-game trade scheme is the best implementation of the 'auction house' that I have ever seen since Ultima Online got out of beta.
I don't play WoW, I've said it many times I used to play Maple Story, auction houses are conducted only in gold in Maple Story.
I didn't say both can't exist simultaneously. I even said *sigh* as long as the auction house permits gold or items as an alternate trade then I'm fine with that.
I'll say it again... Have a normal auction house with lets you place bids with gold, highest bid in terms of gold goes on top of the list and lowest goes on the bottom. Below each bid you have a small text box where you can type anything in it, from a "hai i want ur soj bad ty" to "I'll throw in a nigma w/ my gold bid if u take my bid now". So now the auctioneer has two choices, either just take the highest bid (where they get most gold, and fastest/easiest way) or read through the list of bids for alternate items.
Besides D3 is not Eve. I'm sure EVE have certain gold drains that makes gold very relevant as well as items, I do know that EVE is a player governed game so having a stable form of currency makes it all the more important. We don't know what D3 will have for sure, for all we know D3 might still be the same barter system as D2. You're already making statements as if X feature is already guaranteed in D3 while I'm still trying argue from both perspective: barter or monetary system as I don't even know what will be in D3.
Let's just call it a truce, as the economics of D3 are not confirmed and there is no point in continuing this discussion, unless we get more information about the trading system of D3. If D3 will be a balance of gold/items then I'm pretty much on your side. Otherwise if its only ran by gold, then I have a few things to say to Blizzard.
Diablo II trading was a huge flaw and I hated it.
An auction house would solve all the problems. I tried it in WoW, and it solves A LOT of time and problems.
Every game needs a currency. In the early years of DII, SoJs currency would've never existed if it wasn't for the dupes. Now, everybody knows that HRs are also almost all dupes. So it would've have worked without dupes, and I don't think there will ahve that much dupes in DIII.
What are the cons of an AH? I don't get it.
Risingred
20-07-2009, 21:31
What are the cons of an AH? I don't get it.
I am a big supporter of having an AH in D3, but in the context of diablo, there are some downsides.
1. There is no face-to-face trading with an auction system.
2. Many believe that an auction system would destroy "free trade" or item-for-item trade.
3. Many also believe that having one currency, being gold, would not be "fun" despite the fact that Diablo II has always had a currency.
4. It is reminiscent of World of WarCraft, which for some reason has garnered some serious hatred from the Diablo III community, even though many of us have played and enjoyed the game to some extent, and even though auction houses are not exactly a new idea in online games.
Starving_Poet
20-07-2009, 21:45
You're already making statements as if X feature is already guaranteed in D3 while I'm still trying argue from both perspective: barter or monetary system as I don't even know what will be in D3.
I don't understand what you're not getting - the system I'm describing covers all the bases. It works for gold only, it works for barter only, it works for a combination of the two. It works for purely in-game trading and it also facilitates out of game trading. As I said, ignoring the game around it - the contract system is as close to being a perfect trading system that I've ever seen in any multiplayer game since the days of BBS MUDs.
RogueJuggalo
20-07-2009, 22:37
I don't understand what you're not getting - the system I'm describing covers all the bases. It works for gold only, it works for barter only, it works for a combination of the two. It works for purely in-game trading and it also facilitates out of game trading. As I said, ignoring the game around it - the contract system is as close to being a perfect trading system that I've ever seen in any multiplayer game since the days of BBS MUDs.
That contract system seems pretty cool. Can you search through contracts like you could through an auction house or do you have to find someone and then make the contract?
Why all the hate on WoW here? When you break it down and look at the game objectively you see that like any other game there are successful features and horrible failures. WoW just happens to have a crap ton more successful features then failed ones. The AH was a very nice thing to have... I'd take my every 2 level trip into town (while leveling up) post my crap and go back to killing ****. The in-game-mail was nice too b/c lets face it... I didn't know all of my guildmates e-mails. The loot system was near perfect as well. The biggest fail for it was the 15 bucks a month.
Starving_Poet
21-07-2009, 00:15
That contract system seems pretty cool. Can you search through contracts like you could through an auction house or do you have to find someone and then make the contract?
You can search by person, item, item category, affordable items, region, contract type, etc.
It's hard to see, but all those drop downs are contract filters:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/w/images/c/c2/401contracts.jpg
You can also filter to whom contracts could be visible to when you make them.
A specific person, your corporation (think guild), your alliance (think guild of guilds), or public.
RogueJuggalo
21-07-2009, 00:31
You can search by person, item, item category, affordable items, region, contract type, etc.
It's hard to see, but all those drop downs are contract filters:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/w/images/c/c2/401contracts.jpg
You can also filter to whom contracts could be visible to when you make them.
A specific person, your corporation (think guild), your alliance (think guild of guilds), or public.
That's pretty cool. If Diablo 3 did go beyond the typical auction house I think that contract system looks pretty good. Having never played EVE or used any system like that before, I have to admit that I'm partial to the plain ol' auction house though. :p
LordOfStrategy
21-07-2009, 01:28
Hello! I'm an economics major, and I don't see any way auction houses will take away from the game, or its trading.
Excluding hr or soj containing trades, most trades in d3 would be some stuff I have for the stuff you have, widely considered to be the most fun kind of trade. For this trade to be possible, there needs to be what is called "double coincidence." Not only do you have to want the trader's item(s), but he has to want yours as well. This makes for interesting trade, especially if you're looking for something worth more than you can afford with gold, or for a lower price.
When a sufficient currency is put in the system (assuming d3's gold be just that) double coincidence is no longer required. The only thing you and I have in common needs to be I want your item(s) and you want my gold. Observe how this is far more likely to happen than my wanting your item(s) and your wanting mine as well.
So, how does this add to d3's trading? Well, not only will the "good old days" trading still exist, with the ability to make games named ISO Bonespike or converse in a trade channel, but a new window for trading will also exist, giving those who simply want X amount of gold for their items (gold which has value and can lead to other items of interest) exactly that, but in a much easier, faster way. Essentially, there will be more trade, and it will simultaneously be easier, more approachable trade as a whole.
L.O.S.
Steven Catogen
21-07-2009, 12:52
To those that decide to make a reference to WoW's auction house system, you seem to have forgotten something: World of Warcraft is a MMORPG, Diablo 3 is an ARPG. The best World of Warcraft items are all BoP, while most, if not all, Diablo III items will be BoE. It's impossible to acquire the best of everything through auction house on World of Warcraft, but it's more than probable on Diablo III. Not to mention all the flaws that came with the system: inflating specific goods, monopolizing the market, and/or hoarding valuables.
Wait, what? Source on this information?
Risingred
21-07-2009, 16:10
Wait, what? Source on this information?
He doesn't have one because that isn't true.
Steven Catogen
21-07-2009, 19:36
He doesn't have one because that isn't true.
Thought as much. Good thing too, as that would be a very legitimate thing to complain about.
I don't understand what you're not getting - the system I'm describing covers all the bases. It works for gold only, it works for barter only, it works for a combination of the two. It works for purely in-game trading and it also facilitates out of game trading. As I said, ignoring the game around it - the contract system is as close to being a perfect trading system that I've ever seen in any multiplayer game since the days of BBS MUDs.
But here is the problem- how would you know that it would work on barter (that's a given), gold or both?
D3's economy is still a mystery. From what we know so far, Blizzard only said they would try to make gold hold more importance, however they never mentioned anything about bartering so it's safe to assume that it'll be about the same as D2. I'm going to compare D3 with Maple Story again since it's more similar to D3 (Maple Story is actually based after the Diablo series by many players that also plays Diablo), people could trade with both gold or items (and it's true), but everyone got lazy and feel the need to be dumbed down so they only accepted gold for trading. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard in EVE you have a role as a society: creating your own weapon, doing the fighting, gathering resources. Of course with a broad spectrum of roles like that it's only natural to have flexible with trading. D3 is not EVE, it is designed as a simple "kill all monsters, take their loot, use it, or trade it) and it applies to everyone regardless of differences. You can't expect a system in this game to work in another game.
Starving_Poet
22-07-2009, 18:52
But here is the problem- how would you know that it would work on barter (that's a given), gold or both?
D3's economy is still a mystery. From what we know so far, Blizzard only said they would try to make gold hold more importance, however they never mentioned anything about bartering so it's safe to assume that it'll be about the same as D2. I'm going to compare D3 with Maple Story again since it's more similar to D3 (Maple Story is actually based after the Diablo series by many players that also plays Diablo), people could trade with both gold or items (and it's true), but everyone got lazy and feel the need to be dumbed down so they only accepted gold for trading. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard in EVE you have a role as a society: creating your own weapon, doing the fighting, gathering resources. Of course with a broad spectrum of roles like that it's only natural to have flexible with trading. D3 is not EVE, it is designed as a simple "kill all monsters, take their loot, use it, or trade it) and it applies to everyone regardless of differences. You can't expect a system in this game to work in another game.
And I can say that D3 is not Maple Story and derail your entire argument. I am aware that it isn't EVE - I am simply describing a system that does work and it works very well because it covers all the bases. It doesn't give any preference to a trading style, it leaves it to the players to decide how they want to trade.
Listen, if through natural selection people end up trading only with gold, then guess what, the barter system must not have been very good to begin with. With any well functioning economy ANY barter system is simply too complex to function. It only is needed in niche examples when dealing with items that are so rare that their values are entirely subjective.
Knight_Wolf
22-07-2009, 19:10
But here is the problem- how would you know that it would work on barter (that's a given), gold or both?
D3's economy is still a mystery. From what we know so far, Blizzard only said they would try to make gold hold more importance, however they never mentioned anything about bartering so it's safe to assume that it'll be about the same as D2.
Just because they never mentioned anything doesn't mean they aren't working on it .. one thing for sure .. it won't be 100% like D2.
There are already tons of ways to make gold more worthy (people already suggested so many ideas regarding that) so i think it is very safe to assume the Blizz staff has similar ideas and will indeed make gold more useful and thus thought after as part of the trade system.
Aside from putting useful features that utilize gold It also can simply be made more important by lowering the drop rate of gold and penalizing death by subtracting gold like in D2 (if gold had some use in D2 it would have meant a lot)
RogueJuggalo
22-07-2009, 20:26
...but everyone got lazy and feel the need to be dumbed down so they only accepted gold for trading...
It's not laziness, it's progression. When something new is introduced that makes things easier, people will naturally use it. This statement is like saying that groundsmen at a college campus are lazy for using huge riding lawnmowers instead of tiny push lawnmowers. When new technologies or ideas come around that make things more efficient, people adopt it to save time, effort, money, and whatnot. The same holds true for game economies.
LordOfStrategy described things well in his post, particularly this statement:
Excluding hr or soj containing trades, most trades in d3 would be some stuff I have for the stuff you have, widely considered to be the most fun kind of trade. For this trade to be possible, there needs to be what is called "double coincidence." Not only do you have to want the trader's item(s), but he has to want yours as well. This makes for interesting trade, especially if you're looking for something worth more than you can afford with gold, or for a lower price.
When a sufficient currency is put in the system (assuming d3's gold be just that) double coincidence is no longer required. The only thing you and I have in common needs to be I want your item(s) and you want my gold. Observe how this is far more likely to happen than my wanting your item(s) and your wanting mine as well.
The 'double coincidence' method of bartering is very slow, tedious, and inefficient. This is why the soj/hr currencies were adopted and used. Gold as a currency is the next step in the 'evolution' of trading and and auction house would accompany that very well because it also makes things easier and more efficient.
D3's economy is still a mystery. From what we know so far, Blizzard only said they would try to make gold hold more importance, however they never mentioned anything about bartering so it's safe to assume that it'll be about the same as D2.
The only way blizzard could MAKE bartering the preferred form of transaction would be if they had a confluence of colossal failures. It would require them to a) have nothing in the game that could be a useful functioning currency. That means making sure gems are worthless, and gold is worthless, and not introducing any other similarly exchangable items. It would further require that they avoid implementing any system that helps players trade.
WHAT WOULD THE RESULT OF SUCH A CONFLUENCE BE? It would result in a 3rd party, like has popped up for d2, filling the currency void (with FG).
There is NO WAY to MAKE bartering the preferred system. It will always be based around a currency. Always. Period. Either something in the game will advance to what players will consider valuable and liquid (currency), OR some other party will fill the void by introducing a fiat currency.
As the economics major previously pointed out in his 3 paragraph post. It isn't efficient to go shopping on a barter system.
Blizzard has ZERO interest in trying to promote this much fabled and rose tinted view of bartering that many people seem to be promoting. It will just result in them losing control of how players accquire items entirely, and potentially open players up to scams or other risks by forcing them to go to 3rd party sites. It also means they've done a bad job in making the game and designing the economy.
Steven Catogen
22-07-2009, 20:34
So i've been reading up on some of the new features that will be implemented in Diablo 3, and I think that the dev team is doing a great job in terms of looking at trading and trying to make it a much more enjoyable process. (1)
I wanted to upon up this thread to see what other people thought, and what you guys think should be implemented in the way of D3 trading.
I personally think they should implement some sort of grand exchange type deal like they have in Runescape, which a real place in-game, where players can go and buy whatever crap people are selling from elsewhere on the server. obviously it wouldn't work the same in D3 because D3 won't be an MMO, but something where players could easily see in game what other players are selling, perhaps via some sleezy merchant NPC?
however, i really hope they don't take out 1 on 1 exchange as it is now in D2. It's simply so much fun to barter with people, and is definitely one of the best parts about multiplayer, and it's actually a skill set that you have to acquire, which makes the game that much deeper. (2)
also on the side, I heard somewhere that they will be implementing an armory feature where you could type in a player's name or account name and look at all the items that player has on all their characters. Is this true? A huge highlight in D2 was to show off your good stuff, and gwk at other people's. an armory feature would enhance this so much. what are you people's thoughts?
Bolded numbers mine. 2 contradicts 1.
And I really have to wonder. If you don't like the game so much that the trading is the best part, why are you playing?
As for the armory bit, I see absolutely no legitimate use for that. Helping people steal stuff is about all that would be good for.
SlechtWeerBeer
22-07-2009, 22:12
Bolded numbers mine. 2 contradicts 1.
<snip>
As for the armory bit, I see absolutely no legitimate use for that. Helping people steal stuff is about all that would be good for.
Enjoyable doesn't equal fun necessarily.
Other than those 2 terms I see nothing that can contradict.
Care to explain? :)
re Armory: I fail to see how it promotes item stealing.
And just an fyi: WoW has it too, omgz!11`!`
It can be quite interesting looking at random people's equipment, or showing off what phat lewt a mate of you got two days ago.
-________________________-"
And I can say that D3 is not Maple Story and derail your entire argument. I am aware that it isn't EVE - I am simply describing a system that does work and it works very well because it covers all the bases. It doesn't give any preference to a trading style, it leaves it to the players to decide how they want to trade.
Listen, if through natural selection people end up trading only with gold, then guess what, the barter system must not have been very good to begin with. With any well functioning economy ANY barter system is simply too complex to function. It only is needed in niche examples when dealing with items that are so rare that their values are entirely subjective.
You're right, D3 is not Maple Story, but it is strikingly similar in terms of the economy, more so than EVE I would assume. Here is why (if you're interested in knowing), you are self sufficient. You kill monsters, find rare items, equip it or trade it, use the money you loot to buy potions. You could also buy items from NPC or craft it although it is not as powerful as the ones you find from monsters at a higher level. You could try the game to confirm for yourself. The barter system was not complex, it's just that gold has more flexibility. If I were to trade my Super Sword for an Ultra Bow and my Super Sword is worth 20% more in values of gold, the person wouldn't even take the Super Sword unless I resold it for gold then trade with the gold.
You may claim that your system will cover gold/barter/both but it can only do both gold and barter simultaneously. It'll be useless and impractical if D3 is solely gold based or barter based. If D3 would be gold based who would want to read through a list when they got an auction system. If it is barter based then people would be better off taking offers on trade forums/rooms.
You need to have an auction house as well as being able to leave comments under each bids so the auctioneer are well informed of their alternate options if they are interested in reading the comments.
Just because they never mentioned anything doesn't mean they aren't working on it .. one thing for sure .. it won't be 100% like D2.
There are already tons of ways to make gold more worthy (people already suggested so many ideas regarding that) so i think it is very safe to assume the Blizz staff has similar ideas and will indeed make gold more useful and thus thought after as part of the trade system.
Aside from putting useful features that utilize gold It also can simply be made more important by lowering the drop rate of gold and penalizing death by subtracting gold like in D2 (if gold had some use in D2 it would have meant a lot)
You got a point there but the thing is, we can't trust whether Blizzard would succeed or not. That's why we should attempt to think in a broad spectrum like Starving_Poet.
It's not laziness, it's progression. When something new is introduced that makes things easier, people will naturally use it. This statement is like saying that groundsmen at a college campus are lazy for using huge riding lawnmowers instead of tiny push lawnmowers. When new technologies or ideas come around that make things more efficient, people adopt it to save time, effort, money, and whatnot. The same holds true for game economies.
LordOfStrategy described things well in his post, particularly this statement:
The 'double coincidence' method of bartering is very slow, tedious, and inefficient. This is why the soj/hr currencies were adopted and used. Gold as a currency is the next step in the 'evolution' of trading and and auction house would accompany that very well because it also makes things easier and more efficient.
I still prefer the barter system (I might like it better if gold was more important) since your trade options are more open so has many advantages when it comes to obtain items, here is a list of why:
-Approximate value, if I have a Jah rune and I wanted a Zod rune (Just pretend Jah is slightly lower value than Zod if I'm wrong). A good number of people would be ok with the trade if they needed that Jah rune. However if D3 was based on gold, there is no way they'd make that trade. Why would they trade their 700 gold Zod for a 600 gold Jah?
-Being able to give up something you don't need for something you do need that will benefit both parties. Unlike with the pure gold system, you have to pay gold in order to obtain something (and you need gold), you could always resell but your item will occasionally be useless (unless it's a "+X% more gold from monsters) to you in terms of buying if it isn't converted to gold through trade, you probably wouldn't sell it for gold unless you found a better replacement. Now if I trade my sorc torch (and I'm a necro) to a sorc for his necro torch, we'd be mutually benefiting and our gold in cash wouldn't be lowered. Then we could have money to buy items which is mainly obtained through gold (such as potions).
The only way blizzard could MAKE bartering the preferred form of transaction would be if they had a confluence of colossal failures. It would require them to a) have nothing in the game that could be a useful functioning currency. That means making sure gems are worthless, and gold is worthless, and not introducing any other similarly exchangable items. It would further require that they avoid implementing any system that helps players trade.
WHAT WOULD THE RESULT OF SUCH A CONFLUENCE BE? It would result in a 3rd party, like has popped up for d2, filling the currency void (with FG).
There is NO WAY to MAKE bartering the preferred system. It will always be based around a currency. Always. Period. Either something in the game will advance to what players will consider valuable and liquid (currency), OR some other party will fill the void by introducing a fiat currency.
As the economics major previously pointed out in his 3 paragraph post. It isn't efficient to go shopping on a barter system.
Blizzard has ZERO interest in trying to promote this much fabled and rose tinted view of bartering that many people seem to be promoting. It will just result in them losing control of how players accquire items entirely, and potentially open players up to scams or other risks by forcing them to go to 3rd party sites. It also means they've done a bad job in making the game and designing the economy.
I agree, I wouldn't want D3 to be entirely barter based, however I'd prefer it have a bit of both gold and barter. Sorry for the short reply I'm just tired.
Steven Catogen
23-07-2009, 13:05
Enjoyable doesn't equal fun necessarily.
Other than those 2 terms I see nothing that can contradict.
Care to explain? :)
re Armory: I fail to see how it promotes item stealing.
And just an fyi: WoW has it too, omgz!11`!`
It can be quite interesting looking at random people's equipment, or showing off what phat lewt a mate of you got two days ago.
Last I checked, the two are synonyms.
As for the theft bit, given there are hacks for all sorts of things including killing you the moment you join a game I don't know why anyone would be the slightest bit surprised that an armory site was just used so the hackers know who to rob.
I don't care one way or the other about WoW.
SlechtWeerBeer
23-07-2009, 14:41
Last I checked, the two are synonyms.
As for the theft bit, given there are hacks for all sorts of things including killing you the moment you join a game I don't know why anyone would be the slightest bit surprised that an armory site was just used so the hackers know who to rob.
I don't care one way or the other about WoW.
Enjoyable is a homonym, though. Fun, and the opposite of tedious.
There are no hacks for D3, so far. Regardless, the route the D3 team is taking is consensual duelling, afaik. You can't just join a game and kill someone.
Even if you could, how would you steal his/her items? Even assuming D2 death mechanics, you couldn't steal items (in SC that is).
You're right, D3 is not Maple Story, but it is strikingly similar in terms of the economy, more so than EVE I would assume. Here is why (if you're interested in knowing), you are self sufficient. You kill monsters, find rare items, equip it or trade it, use the money you loot to buy potions. You could also buy items from NPC or craft it although it is not as powerful as the ones you find from monsters at a higher level. You could try the game to confirm for yourself. The barter system was not complex, it's just that gold has more flexibility. If I were to trade my Super Sword for an Ultra Bow and my Super Sword is worth 20% more in values of gold, the person wouldn't even take the Super Sword unless I resold it for gold then trade with the gold.
first, there is no economy for diablo 3 right now, because it isnt released. you cant be sure that the economy will be similar to maple story, since blizz has been known to throw a few curve balls in their days.
as for the sword and bow example, why wouldnt you just sell the sword for gold, buy a bow with gold, and keep the difference?
also, with a gold based economy, it will be easier for players to assign prices for items that are universal everywhere. It could be easier to trade item to item if both parties understand the value of the items being traded, and even though one person may not need what you are trying to trade them, they would still understand the value of the item, and could resell it as such.
You may claim that your system will cover gold/barter/both but it can only do both gold and barter simultaneously. It'll be useless and impractical if D3 is solely gold based or barter based. If D3 would be gold based who would want to read through a list when they got an auction system. If it is barter based then people would be better off taking offers on trade forums/rooms.
You need to have an auction house as well as being able to leave comments under each bids so the auctioneer are well informed of their alternate options if they are interested in reading the comments.
why do you oppose the convenience of an AH?
and you keep talking about people being lazy and only trading for gold, well what is preventing them from being lazy and not reading through 900 auction bids on their items and just accepting the highest gold offer?
You got a point there but the thing is, we can't trust whether Blizzard would succeed or not. That's why we should attempt to think in a broad spectrum like Starving_Poet.
if blizzard fails at making an economy in D3, people will find their own currencies and go back to how it is now, and that is just what we need, a decade old system in a game of today. In an item based game, economy is one of the pertinent issues, and blizz better get it right, since I dont know if I have the patience for this crappy type of economy for another decade.
I still prefer the barter system (I might like it better if gold was more important) since your trade options are more open so has many advantages when it comes to obtain items, here is a list of why:
-Approximate value, if I have a Jah rune and I wanted a Zod rune (Just pretend Jah is slightly lower value than Zod if I'm wrong). A good number of people would be ok with the trade if they needed that Jah rune. However if D3 was based on gold, there is no way they'd make that trade. Why would they trade their 700 gold Zod for a 600 gold Jah?
-Being able to give up something you don't need for something you do need that will benefit both parties. Unlike with the pure gold system, you have to pay gold in order to obtain something (and you need gold), you could always resell but your item will occasionally be useless (unless it's a "+X% more gold from monsters) to you in terms of buying if it isn't converted to gold through trade, you probably wouldn't sell it for gold unless you found a better replacement. Now if I trade my sorc torch (and I'm a necro) to a sorc for his necro torch, we'd be mutually benefiting and our gold in cash wouldn't be lowered. Then we could have money to buy items which is mainly obtained through gold (such as potions).
as for the bolded part, people need to get out of the mindset that gold(or whatever currency blizz adds in D3) will be as worthless as gold is in D2. D3 is a new game, and they have learned from past mistakes. If they do it right, gold will have value.
so in your jah and zod example, you are upset that you will no longer be able to rip people off with items of rough value?
as for the torch trade example, all you are doing is skipping the middle man. that trade would be no different(if each torch had the same value) than person A selling their necro torch on the AH, and using that gold to buy a sorc torch. no net gold loss, but a lot less frustrating than the barter based system counterpart. First, finding someone with the torch you want, and then having them agree on the pride of it. In the gold based system, all parties are getting something they need, be it gold, or items they specifically buy.
Steven Catogen
23-07-2009, 16:25
Enjoyable is a homonym, though. Fun, and the opposite of tedious.
There are no hacks for D3, so far. Regardless, the route the D3 team is taking is consensual duelling, afaik. You can't just join a game and kill someone.
Even if you could, how would you steal his/her items? Even assuming D2 death mechanics, you couldn't steal items (in SC that is).
There were no hacks for D2 prior to its release date as well. That in no way prevents them from existing later.
And you aren't following me. I'm not saying items would be stolen in PvP. I'm saying that a thing that displays who has the good items would not do anything but tell the thieves who to hack. It doesn't help PvP at all. In many ways it hinders it, as your opponent now knows exactly how to counter you.
The Diablo line has had more than enough problems with hackers and scammers and other undesirables without throwing them bones. You need to raise the Hand of Halting +5 (+10 against unscrupulous sorts) against them. And that's the bottom line, because Stone Cold didn't say so.
SlechtWeerBeer
23-07-2009, 16:50
There were no hacks for D2 prior to its release date as well. That in no way prevents them from existing later.
And you aren't following me. I'm not saying items would be stolen in PvP. I'm saying that a thing that displays who has the good items would not do anything but tell the thieves who to hack. It doesn't help PvP at all. In many ways it hinders it, as your opponent now knows exactly how to counter you.
The Diablo line has had more than enough problems with hackers and scammers and other undesirables without throwing them bones. You need to raise the Hand of Halting +5 (+10 against unscrupulous sorts) against them. And that's the bottom line, because Stone Cold didn't say so.
You cannot ever stop hacks from appearing.
If a hacker wants good items, he'll try to hack someone high in the ladder, because they presumably have the best items. He can confirm his thoughts and go to an armory page of that character, or start his hacking attempts right away. Who cares.
Besides, if your account is hacked, it's usually your own fault really. If you don't tell anyone your password and don't download obscure exes/zips, a hacker cannot do a lot to get your password.
Max resists and as much block as you can, right?
Any online franchise has problems with hackers etc. It's a fact. Diablo is nothing special.
At release D2 wasn't hack infested like it is now. Nowadays, technology is far beyond what D2 is built on, and Blizz isn't actively working against them because WoW is a cashcow, and D2 is not. Unless D3 doesn't survive for >5 years, it will eventually succumb to a massive amount of hacks, cheats and dupes. Blizzard won't always be there to protect an old game that barely generates income for them. They are a company, and are aiming to make a profit. That's why their games are good.
Starving_Poet
23-07-2009, 19:34
You may claim that your system will cover gold/barter/both but it can only do both gold and barter simultaneously. It'll be useless and impractical if D3 is solely gold based or barter based. If D3 would be gold based who would want to read through a list when they got an auction system. If it is barter based then people would be better off taking offers on trade forums/rooms.
No, if isk (gold) was entirely useless in EVE due to inflationary pressures than it would work amazing well is a pure barter system. Not only that, but it would even work with Diablo 2's current faux-currency system - it would actually work amazing well.
And barter will never cease to exist, there will be never be a pure gold system because even if everyone was lazy (and I've played Maple Story - it's not as black and white as you say) there are still going to exist items that are so rare, that they can not have currency value.
Again, I've said it before, it's as close to being perfect as any game has ever achieved. It's the perfect combination of e-bay and swap meet.
Steven Catogen
23-07-2009, 23:10
You cannot ever stop hacks from appearing.
If a hacker wants good items, he'll try to hack someone high in the ladder, because they presumably have the best items. He can confirm his thoughts and go to an armory page of that character, or start his hacking attempts right away. Who cares.
Besides, if your account is hacked, it's usually your own fault really. If you don't tell anyone your password and don't download obscure exes/zips, a hacker cannot do a lot to get your password.
Max resists and as much block as you can, right?
Any online franchise has problems with hackers etc. It's a fact. Diablo is nothing special.
At release D2 wasn't hack infested like it is now. Nowadays, technology is far beyond what D2 is built on, and Blizz isn't actively working against them because WoW is a cashcow, and D2 is not. Unless D3 doesn't survive for >5 years, it will eventually succumb to a massive amount of hacks, cheats and dupes. Blizzard won't always be there to protect an old game that barely generates income for them. They are a company, and are aiming to make a profit. That's why their games are good.
And the most 'they could hack you anyways' does is prove an armory page does nothing at all. Removing the negative without adding a positive still leaves pointless content.
SlechtWeerBeer
24-07-2009, 00:02
And the most 'they could hack you anyways' does is prove an armory page does nothing at all. Removing the negative without adding a positive still leaves pointless content.
So people just liking an armory equals pointless?
Let's remove graphics, then.
They only exist because people like looking at a picture better than text (ala NetHack).
first, there is no economy for diablo 3 right now, because it isnt released. you cant be sure that the economy will be similar to maple story, since blizz has been known to throw a few curve balls in their days.
That's what I've been trying to say but everyone is so keen on using examples assuming that D3's economy will be like ______ so I have to use a counter in their area of argument as well.
as for the sword and bow example, why wouldnt you just sell the sword for gold, buy a bow with gold, and keep the difference?
Selling items is not a fast process. You have two options: Sell it in your own personal store (you have to pay $2 to open it every time, which I wouldn't want) or put it up on an auction house. It would take about 2 days worth of bidding to actually get that sword to sell for a reasonable price but it is much faster if you have a store. Most players in Maple Story have their own personal store, and that trader definitely has one and can put up that sword in his store.
also, with a gold based economy, it will be easier for players to assign prices for items that are universal everywhere. It could be easier to trade item to item if both parties understand the value of the items being traded, and even though one person may not need what you are trying to trade them, they would still understand the value of the item, and could resell it as such.
But the gold system can be inflexible if barter wasn't allowed. In order to obtain a certain item, you need a number of gold to match it's price. Now you could try to bargain the price down, but in a game that is gold based, it would generally have some person stores then that's it, price you see is price you pay, no fun in that. With barter/gold you have a bit more freedom, if you're not willing to spend more gold, you can throw in an item of equal value of the amount of gold you're lacking as well as more options to bargain.
why do you oppose the convenience of an AH?
and you keep talking about people being lazy and only trading for gold, well what is preventing them from being lazy and not reading through 900 auction bids on their items and just accepting the highest gold offer?
I oppose it because of the snipers (people that makes a cheap bid at the least second) which sucks because I don't have all day to snipe. I oppose it because the most in demand item can easily be snatched from the richest people and you won't get a say in your alternative or additional offers. I'm used to the barter system of D2, but I know it is not great because having gold is also fundamental. I want both gold and barter system.
as for the bolded part, people need to get out of the mindset that gold(or whatever currency blizz adds in D3) will be as worthless as gold is in D2. D3 is a new game, and they have learned from past mistakes. If they do it right, gold will have value.
And I would hope so too.
so in your jah and zod example, you are upset that you will no longer be able to rip people off with items of rough value?
Ripping people off is part of every trade, barter or currency based.
as for the torch trade example, all you are doing is skipping the middle man. that trade would be no different(if each torch had the same value) than person A selling their necro torch on the AH, and using that gold to buy a sorc torch. no net gold loss, but a lot less frustrating than the barter based system counterpart. First, finding someone with the torch you want, and then having them agree on the pride of it. In the gold based system, all parties are getting something they need, be it gold, or items they specifically buy.
Ok that was a bad example I've given. Now consider it this way (better example I hope). PersonA has a fire sword on auction. PersonB wants the fire sword. PersonA's auction value went up to 100gold for it and PersonB has the items that are worth the value, but not enough gold in cash to buy it. PersonA accepts only gold. PersonB would have to resell his old sword and now he has enough gold. But here is the problem: Would that firesword still up for bid by the time? Maybe. Would that firesword's bid go beyond PersonB's willing to pay price? Probably. You're not always guaranteed an item in an auction house. If PersonB lost the bid, then it's fine he still hasn't suffered any net lost, but now he is weaponless until he finds a new sellers which is an inconvienance. I would be glad if the auction house allows side offers under each bid (and side offer can be in items) otherwise if its just pure gold, bleh.
No, if isk (gold) was entirely useless in EVE due to inflationary pressures than it would work amazing well is a pure barter system. Not only that, but it would even work with Diablo 2's current faux-currency system - it would actually work amazing well.
And barter will never cease to exist, there will be never be a pure gold system because even if everyone was lazy (and I've played Maple Story - it's not as black and white as you say) there are still going to exist items that are so rare, that they can not have currency value.
Again, I've said it before, it's as close to being perfect as any game has ever achieved. It's the perfect combination of e-bay and swap meet.
But the thing is, D3 is trying to move away from the pure barter based system which is why I don't really care if your system works for barter. I agree barter will always be there but to a much lesser extent. It is unlikely that D3 would have any huge inflation that would render gold useless (unless Blizzard jacks up the price on every item just to piss us off, or if they introduce a new patch), even if there is such a thing, the inflation would only be temporary and I highly doubt Blizzard would have a major flaw in the currency system after a few patches.
Also, what do you mean by item so rare that it has no currency value? I've never seen such a thing. I used to play Maple Story back in the days when a work glove that increases attack power was used by all the elite players. Most of those work gloves attack power is between 7-10 (worth 5-15million mesos at the time). However there was one that increases attack power by 15 and the reason why that is so rare is because the work glove has 5 slots of upgrades available. In order to obtain those attack power you must use any of the scrolls (100% scrolls has a 100% chance of add 1 atk power, 60% scrolls has 60% chance of adding 2 atk power, 10% scrolls has 10% chance of adding 3 atk powers). You might know this but I want to be clear. You could use a 100% scroll that is guaranteed success but it's benefits are minimal. Each time a scroll fails (or succeeds) to upgrade, it deducts 1 upgrade slot(so if you fail an upgrade, your glove has 4/5 upgrade slots left, and will NEVER be able to have 15atk power). Each scroll used to upgrade atk power is worth a lot individually ( 1million for 100%, 7million for 60%, 2-3million for 10%) so you won't get infinite chances to gamble with those scrolls). This person managed to get 10% scrolls to work 5 IN A ROW. That is as rare as a guy spontaneously combusting next to you. The person that traded for that scroll put up 10Billion mesos (which is an unthinkable amount) as well as 9 ilbi throwing star, each worth 20million mesos (ilbis are the most powerful throwing star and the rarest) then the trade was done. My point is, that item is phenomenally rare yet the trade is was conducted primarily through gold.
If you guys have anything else to say to me (try to wrap it up) make it shorter. I'm starting to get tired of typing out paragraphs.
Just incase there is no missunderstanding:
-I want gold/barter simultaneously.
-I'm OK with auction house as well as it has alternative offers (including items) under each bid.
Starving_Poet
27-07-2009, 22:24
But the thing is, D3 is trying to move away from the pure barter based system which is why I don't really care if your system works for barter.
Fine
Just incase there is no missunderstanding:
-I want gold/barter simultaneously.
-I'm OK with auction house as well as it has alternative offers (including items) under each bid.[/B]
Color me confused.
Now, there is a VERY HIGH chance that gold in Diablo 3 will get to the point of inflation-related uselessness unless they can find a way to introduce very useful gold sinks, and make them dynamic. We all hope they can figure this out, but it's a very fine balance and we won't know if it works until there is a very high rate of cashflow in the system.
And a rare item is an item that there exists a known, small, number of. For example, a legit Zod in Diablo 2. These items have values that are tied directly to their rarity, not their usefulness because the only people that want them do so precisely because they're rare.
RogueJuggalo
27-07-2009, 22:55
But the gold system can be inflexible if barter wasn't allowed.
I think I found the problem. Nobody is saying that barter should not be allowed in the game.
I don't think that the option to offer items in an auction house (that is driven by currency) is a good idea and here is why:
- The program would not be able to determine which bid is the highest if something other than gold is used to bid. Thus it would require the player to immediately make the decision at the time that the auction ends. This would require the player who started the auction to make a choice immediately, not be away from the keyboard, not be offline, etc. There are too many conditions that make this just not work. With only gold allowed, this mechanic-breaking problem never comes into existence. I'd also like to add that the game can't dictate what is worth more for the player, X amount of gold or Y item. Diablo 2 vendors pay more for one socket boneweave than they do for an SoJ.
- Being able to leave notes or side bids or whatever for the player who started the auction complicates things by adding spam and creating the possibility for abuse. (switching accounts/IP/cd keys to flood or advertise or whatever). I'd be SO annoyed if I had to log on to complete an auction and read through 4731789123 messages like 'D3itemzz [ . ] com hot new summer deals!!' or even for real life products.
- An auction house is not an auction house if it allows for items to be traded for items instead of currency. It can't be automated like an auction house can. Since Blizzard is trying to simplify trading and make it more accessible to more players, this would be very counterproductive.
An auction house doesn't mean that bartering is dead. If there is a seller trying to sell an item you want, send him a message and make him an offer. Maybe you'll be lucky and he'll be online to respond. If he isn't and you need the gold as soon as possible, sell the item for less than it's worth. As I stated before, if you need money fast you can get it by selling an item on the auction house for less than it's actually worth because there will always be someone like me who will buy it almost instantly and resell it for it's actual value to make a big profit in seconds.
Starving_Poet
27-07-2009, 23:40
This is why I think we should shed the old fashioned idea of the 'auction house' and use something that covers all the bases, like I have suggested in my previous posts.
Create an in-game system for trading with characters that are not logged in for non-auctionable items and within that system build in the ability to auction auctionable items for gold. It covers all bases and doesn't detract from any one desired trade style / group. It even enhances out-of-game trading styles by providing a secure framework to trade in-game.
I oppose it because of the snipers (people that makes a cheap bid at the least second) which sucks because I don't have all day to snipe. I oppose it because the most in demand item can easily be snatched from the richest people and you won't get a say in your alternative or additional offers. I'm used to the barter system of D2, but I know it is not great because having gold is also fundamental. I want both gold and barter system.
I am only responding to this part of your post, since it is the only part I consider worth responding too.
First, the AH can be set up to prevent snipers. In wow, first and foremost you dont know exactly when an item is about to run out of time, only the seller really has any idea(other than very long, medium, or short amount of time remaining). Second, when an item gets a bid, the duration of the auction increases, so you cannot snipe the item at the last second.
and as far the barter and gold system, RogueJuggalo pretty much covers what problems that brings up. An AH doesnt prevent person to person trading, it only offers another facet the the trading scene.
@Starving_Poet
So, by your example, that item is only priceless just because it is rare and has not that much in terms of game play value. People want to keep it just to have one? If that's so then why does it even count as an example of currency flaw? -_- That item itself is a flaw.
Fine
Color me confused.
Now, there is a VERY HIGH chance that gold in Diablo 3 will get to the point of inflation-related uselessness unless they can find a way to introduce very useful gold sinks, and make them dynamic. We all hope they can figure this out, but it's a very fine balance and we won't know if it works until there is a very high rate of cashflow in the system.
And a rare item is an item that there exists a known, small, number of. For example, a legit Zod in Diablo 2. These items have values that are tied directly to their rarity, not their usefulness because the only people that want them do so precisely because they're rare.
Having gold sinks isn't very hard to have. I also played Lunia (a D3 clone, but a good one, I should of used that as an example instead of Maple). Items can also be bartered in that game because they're so "scattered" since the quest reward is a random item (regardless if it matches your class or not), a major gold sink is the fortitude stones which allows items to have their base stats upgrade for a large amount of money.
I think I found the problem. Nobody is saying that barter should not be allowed in the game.
I don't think that the option to offer items in an auction house (that is driven by currency) is a good idea and here is why:
- The program would not be able to determine which bid is the highest if something other than gold is used to bid. Thus it would require the player to immediately make the decision at the time that the auction ends. This would require the player who started the auction to make a choice immediately, not be away from the keyboard, not be offline, etc. There are too many conditions that make this just not work. With only gold allowed, this mechanic-breaking problem never comes into existence. I'd also like to add that the game can't dictate what is worth more for the player, X amount of gold or Y item. Diablo 2 vendors pay more for one socket boneweave than they do for an SoJ.
Which is why I said in the earlier few pages that the person with the highest bid in terms of gold goes on top of the list. You don't actually "put in" an item for bid, there is only a small text box below each bid, and you can type in whatever you want in that box whether if its a "hai i wnt nigma lolz" to "i'll throw in perfect ammy". So the auctioneer has two choices: just go with the highest bid in terms of gold, or look through the list for an interesting offer.
- Being able to leave notes or side bids or whatever for the player who started the auction complicates things by adding spam and creating the possibility for abuse. (switching accounts/IP/cd keys to flood or advertise or whatever). I'd be SO annoyed if I had to log on to complete an auction and read through 4731789123 messages like 'D3itemzz [ . ] com hot new summer deals!!' or even for real life products.
I like how you're thinking ahead and I do agree, that may be a problem. However if the auction house was built into D3 where you can only bid whatever you have, it may be less of an issue since only "serious" bidders can bid. Now if the auction house takes place on an outside source such as a fansite trade forum then yes, that could be an issue since you have to "trust" that your bidder has the money.
- An auction house is not an auction house if it allows for items to be traded for items instead of currency. It can't be automated like an auction house can. Since Blizzard is trying to simplify trading and make it more accessible to more players, this would be very counterproductive.
Another good point, and I guess I've been a bit hypocritical with Starving_Poet about his idea isn't auction house related since mine isn't exactly 100% an auction house (although it hast traits of it). But I think I've already answered this for you in the above quotes.
An auction house doesn't mean that bartering is dead. If there is a seller trying to sell an item you want, send him a message and make him an offer. Maybe you'll be lucky and he'll be online to respond. If he isn't and you need the gold as soon as possible, sell the item for less than it's worth. As I stated before, if you need money fast you can get it by selling an item on the auction house for less than it's actually worth because there will always be someone like me who will buy it almost instantly and resell it for it's actual value to make a big profit in seconds.
Probably not, but if the auction house has an almost complete monopoly over the importance of gold then it might kill barter. Games like Maple Story has auction houses but from an outside source (as well as personal stores), due to that barter is dead and gold is the only accepted currency.
I am only responding to this part of your post, since it is the only part I consider worth responding too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkkorps
so in your jah and zod example, you are upset that you will no longer be able to rip people off with items of rough value?
Me: Ripping people off is part of every trade, barter or currency based.
^What about that?
First, the AH can be set up to prevent snipers. In wow, first and foremost you dont know exactly when an item is about to run out of time, only the seller really has any idea(other than very long, medium, or short amount of time remaining). Second, when an item gets a bid, the duration of the auction increases, so you cannot snipe the item at the last second.
I'm not foreign to this. I've seen bids that continues for about 2hours (since I also use auction houses in Maple Story) even after the bid was supposed to end. But, I have to draw the line somewhere and just ended the bid. Some people may not be as "generous" as me and will let the bidders waste their time in front of the computer putting more and more money in.
and as far the barter and gold system, RogueJuggalo pretty much covers what problems that brings up. An AH doesnt prevent person to person trading, it only offers another facet the the trading scene.
If the auction house is automated and will automatically subtract your bid from your inventory then yes it might.
If it is not then of course you have to show your face in person in D3 to get the transaction done but I doubt that you and the trader will make any significant other trades since he/she probably has other items on bid then would rather take the bid then your bargain down price.
Nothing is ever 100% and I do agree with you on that.
I say AH will only prevent 99% of person to person trading.
^What about that?
it was an asinine statement that wasnt worth responding too.
I'm not foreign to this. I've seen bids that continues for about 2hours (since I also use auction houses in Maple Story) even after the bid was supposed to end. But, I have to draw the line somewhere and just ended the bid. Some people may not be as "generous" as me and will let the bidders waste their time in front of the computer putting more and more money in.
having an auction house that requires the auctioneer to log on and complete the transaction just opens up a whole new line of character griefing(list a bunch of items, and dont close them for weeks on end. the bidders have still lost out on whatever gold they have bid on the auction until it closes)
if you are going to do an AH, it needs to be automated for it to be fair for everyone who uses it.
If the auction house is automated and will automatically subtract your bid from your inventory then yes it might.
If it is not then of course you have to show your face in person in D3 to get the transaction done but I doubt that you and the trader will make any significant other trades since he/she probably has other items on bid then would rather take the bid then your bargain down price.
Nothing is ever 100% and I do agree with you on that.
I say AH will only prevent 99% of person to person trading.
just because maple story cant get it right, doesnt mean that D3 has no chance in getting it right. As much as people hate it, blizz is going to pull ideas from WoW(just like WoW pulled ideas from D2) and a lot of the ideas from WoW are pretty polished and refined(not all, but a fair amount, including the AH)
it was an asinine statement that wasnt worth responding too.
No I think I put you on the spot with that one. Next time don't bring up any rude statements such as "this is the only part I thought was worth replying to".
having an auction house that requires the auctioneer to log on and complete the transaction just opens up a whole new line of character griefing(list a bunch of items, and dont close them for weeks on end. the bidders have still lost out on whatever gold they have bid on the auction until it closes)
Um, thanks for the indirect support on my earlier argument :thumbsup:
if you are going to do an AH, it needs to be automated for it to be fair for everyone who uses it.
And in what way should it be automated?
just because maple story cant get it right, doesnt mean that D3 has no chance in getting it right. As much as people hate it, blizz is going to pull ideas from WoW(just like WoW pulled ideas from D2) and a lot of the ideas from WoW are pretty polished and refined(not all, but a fair amount, including the AH)
"pretty polished" "and refined" "not all, but a fair amount".
This applies to so many games out there (Maple Story, Lunia, Cabal, Trickster, Atlantica, Conquer, etc). Lunia for example has nailed the barter/gold aspect and I applaud them on that. You're always going to make some success (and maybe some failures) by adopting features from other games so your statement is already a given.
I'm not saying D3 has no chance but the thing is we don't even know what D3's economy is going to be like. I'm assuming D3 is going to do it wrong (If D3 were to do it right which I do have some faith in, then I might as well sit here twiddling my fingers)
No I think I put you on the spot with that one. Next time don't bring up any rude statements such as "this is the only part I thought was worth replying to".
it wasnt worth replying to. Using your previous arguments, in a gold based system, people will only ever trade items for gold, at their specific value. If every item has a specific value that it is worth, and people only trade following that value, it is impossible to rip someone off.
And the statement was only rude because you took it that way.
Um, thanks for the indirect support on my earlier argument :thumbsup:
either you didnt understand what I was saying in that post, or you are contradicting yourself. You want a system where people can leave notes as to other things they can add to the trade. having a system like that would require the auctioneer to log on and complete the auction(since it would be infeasable to have the game somehow decide if the side bid is worth more than the gold).
requiring the auctioneer to log on to complete the trade is a pain, and will only lead to character griefing.
And in what way should it be automated?
it should be automated so that the seller doesnt have to be online for the trades to complete. When you put an item up for auction, the game removes the item from your inventory, and when a player places a bid on your item, the gold is removed from their inventory(if they have the highest bid, lower bids get their money refunded). After so much time has elapsed, the auction closes(with methods to prevent last second sniping), the seller gets the gold and the buyer gets the item. All of this(other than listing the item and posting a bid) can take place without either character being ingame.
"pretty polished" "and refined" "not all, but a fair amount".
This applies to so many games out there (Maple Story, Lunia, Cabal, Trickster, Atlantica, Conquer, etc). Lunia for example has nailed the barter/gold aspect and I applaud them on that. You're always going to make some success (and maybe some failures) by adopting features from other games so your statement is already a given.
I'm not saying D3 has no chance but the thing is we don't even know what D3's economy is going to be like. I'm assuming D3 is going to do it wrong (If D3 were to do it right which I do have some faith in, then I might as well sit here twiddling my fingers)
having never played those games I cannot comment on them, but there are plenty of games that dont fit that description.
and if there is anything I have learned from blizz, is you go in expecting it to work(and lately, they just kill off the game with future patches and such)
RogueJuggalo
29-07-2009, 20:48
bkkorps responded to the post pretty much identically to what I was going to say, so I won't bother. He did miss this quote though and I do have a comment for it.
Some people may not be as "generous" as me and will let the bidders waste their time in front of the computer putting more and more money in.
This is part of the point of an auction house, getting as much money as possible before time runs out.
Ripping people off is part of every trade, barter or currency based.
I disagree with the literal statement, but I agree that during any sort of exchange both parties attempt to get as much as possible for themselves without upsetting the other party.
Would rather have a consignment house instead. Auction = fail! :D
it wasnt worth replying to. Using your previous arguments, in a gold based system, people will only ever trade items for gold, at their specific value. If every item has a specific value that it is worth, and people only trade following that value, it is impossible to rip someone off.
And the statement was only rude because you took it that way.
Do people really trade according to an item's referred value? For instance you took the time to look for a person that is selling uh... a grand charm. I happen to have it, and the grand charm is worth 1,000 gold. Now you finally found the person that has it (me) and you thought you were paying 1,000 gold for it but in reality I'm charging you 1,100 gold for it. Why? Because you put out time to look for it and are unwilling to go empty handed and since the item is right in front of your face... why not?, that most likely you wouldn't put off my offer even if I was only overcharging by a small amount. Also if you were to hesitate, I could easily say "if you don't buy it now I'm making it 1,200 gold instead" and that is pretty damn good motivation for you to buy it. I can adjust any item's price as long as there is no prior agreements with price.
And believe me, not everyone is going to remember an item's worth which makes it all the easier to over/under price.
It doesn't matter if I'm ripping you off by a small amount, I'm still ripping you off in the end. Am I an A-hole for doing that (sorry if that counts as masking mods)? No it's just business.
And yes I am taking that comment as rude, I'm allowed to can I? You did ignore my other statements.
either you didnt understand what I was saying in that post, or you are contradicting yourself. You want a system where people can leave notes as to other things they can add to the trade. having a system like that would require the auctioneer to log on and complete the auction(since it would be infeasable to have the game somehow decide if the side bid is worth more than the gold).
requiring the auctioneer to log on to complete the trade is a pain, and will only lead to character griefing.
Um, I never mentioned anything about an outside auction house (which requires face to face transaction) or one that is integrated into the game (which usually doesn't). I just said you have two ways of doing the auction- the fast way or the slow way. Fast way being that the auctioneer can ignore alternative bids in text and just go with the highest bidder in terms of plain cash or they can use the slow way and read through the list then personally decide which bid combo they like the most.
it should be automated so that the seller doesnt have to be online for the trades to complete. When you put an item up for auction, the game removes the item from your inventory, and when a player places a bid on your item, the gold is removed from their inventory(if they have the highest bid, lower bids get their money refunded). After so much time has elapsed, the auction closes(with methods to prevent last second sniping), the seller gets the gold and the buyer gets the item. All of this(other than listing the item and posting a bid) can take place without either character being ingame.
I see a few flaws in that:
-What happens if the item arrangement in the inventory is disturbed during auction? Say you put a bid on a sword you want and while you're killing monsters you saw an armor you want to pick up, but then it said "sorry you only have 1 slot left in your inventory and that slot is reserved for your bid". That could apply to your stash as well. Also what if you have multiple bids? Say you bid on 5 items and you won all 5 bids, now you only have enough slots for 3 items, does that mean you lost the other 2 bids due to insufficient inventory space? You could have the game predetermine whether you have enough room or not for bidding (if the auction house was integrated into D3) but then due to that, you're limited to how many items you could bid on so it'll take you longer to find items, now not only is it "do i have enough money" but its also "do i have enough space?".
having never played those games I cannot comment on them, but there are plenty of games that dont fit that description.
and if there is anything I have learned from blizz, is you go in expecting it to work(and lately, they just kill off the game with future patches and such)
Um those games don't fit what description, the barter/gold description?
And if there is anything I too have learned about blizz, is you can expect a lot of glitches and flaws when you start and through months worth of patches the game start to work itself out.
bkkorps responded to the post pretty much identically to what I was going to say, so I won't bother. He did miss this quote though and I do have a comment for it.
This is part of the point of an auction house, getting as much money as possible before time runs out.
I disagree with the literal statement, but I agree that during any sort of exchange both parties attempt to get as much as possible for themselves without upsetting the other party.
And that is normal in any trade. You want to pull out more money from the person you're trading with but not upset them so that they cancel the trade. But my point is, you're hardly ever going to pay by an item's referred price.
Knight_Wolf
31-07-2009, 02:21
And that is normal in any trade. You want to pull out more money from the person you're trading with but not upset them so that they cancel the trade. But my point is, you're hardly ever going to pay by an item's referred price.
No you will if there is open trade .. if you try to rip me off by say selling a unique helm to me for 50000 and i already encountered it some time before in auction houses being sold for prices between 25000 and 30000 i wouldn't bother with your offer and would go to the open market (or AH or whatever system is there for trade) to get a better offer on it ... which isn't possible if there wasn't any auction house or a similar open market system (i must note that AH is just being used -at least by me- to indicate any system that favors open market trade ... but it doesn't have to strictly be an AH as we know it)
Do people really trade according to an item's referred value? For instance you took the time to look for a person that is selling uh... a grand charm. I happen to have it, and the grand charm is worth 1,000 gold. Now you finally found the person that has it (me) and you thought you were paying 1,000 gold for it but in reality I'm charging you 1,100 gold for it. Why? Because you put out time to look for it and are unwilling to go empty handed and since the item is right in front of your face... why not?, that most likely you wouldn't put off my offer even if I was only overcharging by a small amount. Also if you were to hesitate, I could easily say "if you don't buy it now I'm making it 1,200 gold instead" and that is pretty damn good motivation for you to buy it. I can adjust any item's price as long as there is no prior agreements with price.
And believe me, not everyone is going to remember an item's worth which makes it all the easier to over/under price.
It doesn't matter if I'm ripping you off by a small amount, I'm still ripping you off in the end. Am I an A-hole for doing that (sorry if that counts as masking mods)? No it's just business.
you talked about an example earlier where one run(jah maybe?) was worth say 600 and the other rune was worth 700. Your argument was that in a gold based system, people would only trade these runes if 100 gold was also added to the jah rune to make the trade fair, but in a barter system, people would be more willing to trade these because they are roughly the same value.
So you are contradicting yourself.
Um, I never mentioned anything about an outside auction house (which requires face to face transaction) or one that is integrated into the game (which usually doesn't). I just said you have two ways of doing the auction- the fast way or the slow way. Fast way being that the auctioneer can ignore alternative bids in text and just go with the highest bidder in terms of plain cash or they can use the slow way and read through the list then personally decide which bid combo they like the most.
Again, you arent comprehending what I am saying. I never said that you had to log on and do a face to face transaction, but in your system the auctioneer needs to log on to choose what bid he is going to accept.
and if the auctioneer needs to log on to complete the trade, it opens new doors to griefing methods.
I see a few flaws in that:
-What happens if the item arrangement in the inventory is disturbed during auction? Say you put a bid on a sword you want and while you're killing monsters you saw an armor you want to pick up, but then it said "sorry you only have 1 slot left in your inventory and that slot is reserved for your bid". That could apply to your stash as well. Also what if you have multiple bids? Say you bid on 5 items and you won all 5 bids, now you only have enough slots for 3 items, does that mean you lost the other 2 bids due to insufficient inventory space? You could have the game predetermine whether you have enough room or not for bidding (if the auction house was integrated into D3) but then due to that, you're limited to how many items you could bid on so it'll take you longer to find items, now not only is it "do i have enough money" but its also "do i have enough space?".
There are ways around that. Wow has a mailbox system where the trade results are mailed to you(and the mailbox can hold more things than you can possibly use, so no worry about running out of space there). Then, as you make more inventory space you can return to the mailbox to retrieve more items.
And the only way to make an AH work is to have it remove the gold/item from your inventory when you put an item up for auction or place a bid. If that is what you were referencing with the "do I have enough money" statement.
Um those games don't fit what description, the barter/gold description?
That was in response to this:
"pretty polished" "and refined" "not all, but a fair amount".
This applies to so many games out there (Maple Story, Lunia, Cabal, Trickster, Atlantica, Conquer, etc).
No you will if there is open trade .. if you try to rip me off by say selling a unique helm to me for 50000 and i already encountered it some time before in auction houses being sold for prices between 25000 and 30000 i wouldn't bother with your offer and would go to the open market (or AH or whatever system is there for trade) to get a better offer on it ... which isn't possible if there wasn't any auction house or a similar open market system (i must note that AH is just being used -at least by me- to indicate any system that favors open market trade ... but it doesn't have to strictly be an AH as we know it)
You're right but just not right on topic lol. That statement was an example to bkkorps about a personal trade (which you can get ripped off in) that he was arguing with me about.
you talked about an example earlier where one run(jah maybe?) was worth say 600 and the other rune was worth 700. Your argument was that in a gold based system, people would only trade these runes if 100 gold was also added to the jah rune to make the trade fair, but in a barter system, people would be more willing to trade these because they are roughly the same value.
So you are contradicting yourself.
I'm amused at how you keep trying to bring up my "hypocrisy" to make yourself look smarter. Unfortunately you failed at that.
You're right, I would be contradicting myself if that was the case. But what you failed to see is that I mentioned those two on a separate basis. The barter would conflict with the barter/gold but I never mentioned those two together. I said "if in barter I can trade this for approximate value, HOWEVER IF it was a barter/gold then you'd need alternative offers. Two roosters can't conflict if they're in a separate cage right?
Again, you arent comprehending what I am saying. I never said that you had to log on and do a face to face transaction, but in your system the auctioneer needs to log on to choose what bid he is going to accept.
and if the auctioneer needs to log on to complete the trade, it opens new doors to griefing methods.
I don't get it, why are you criticizing my method by comparing it to yours which is different? What is so wrong about requiring (aside from your other point)athe auctioneer to log on to complete transaction, almost every auction system requires it so what is so strange about that?
How does having the auctioneer to log on create more griefing? You think the auctioneer is going to say "hey now that you're up and personal with me, ima charge you 100 more gold even though you won the bid with 1000 just because I feel like being a dick" or "now that we're done trading how about I PK you just to show off how cool i am". I have never ever seen that happen, everytime I log on to complete the transaction the auctioneer just trade for the agreed upon price and leaves when the trade is done.
There are ways around that. Wow has a mailbox system where the trade results are mailed to you(and the mailbox can hold more things than you can possibly use, so no worry about running out of space there). Then, as you make more inventory space you can return to the mailbox to retrieve more items.
Um, we're talking about auction house here. Why are you introducing unalike methods? Do you think D3's infrastructure as well as the fan would agree with the mailbox system as well? Instead of arguing with me about the mailbox feature here (which I'm sure you will) make a new thread to discuss about mailbox since its unrelated to AH.
And the only way to make an AH work is to have it remove the gold/item from your inventory when you put an item up for auction or place a bid. If that is what you were referencing with the "do I have enough money" statement.
Let me ask you this first, what is wrong with auction house? To you placing bids is a flaw that you need to bid with real money instead of stated money? That requiring traders to log on is a flaw? That having a mailbox system to complement it is the only way for it to work?
I'm ignoring the mailbox complement as it is an off topic add-on which requires its own speculation by others.
So if I place a bid I would temporarily lose my money. It wouldn't matter if I could get it back if I lost the bid since I wouldn't have my money during the time I would need it. Why would I bid then? It would be like loaning your money out to a bank but getting no interest payments. Use your imagination and you'll know why that's bad.
That was in response to this:
I don't see where you're getting at from here.
I'm amused at how you keep trying to bring up my "hypocrisy" to make yourself look smarter. Unfortunately you failed at that.
you are assuming my intent of the post(which is way off base). I was merely pointing out your own contradictions.
You're right, I would be contradicting myself if that was the case. But what you failed to see is that I mentioned those two on a separate basis. The barter would conflict with the barter/gold but I never mentioned those two together. I said "if in barter I can trade this for approximate value, HOWEVER IF it was a barter/gold then you'd need alternative offers. Two roosters can't conflict if they're in a separate cage right?
you are taking my posts out of context. You claimed that in every trade you are ripping the other person off, but in a previous example that you yourself brought up(that rune example) you contradicted yourself claiming that people would only ever trade for exact prices of items(and thus preventing the ability to rip anyone off)
I don't get it, why are you criticizing my method by comparing it to yours which is different? What is so wrong about requiring (aside from your other point)athe auctioneer to log on to complete transaction, almost every auction system requires it so what is so strange about that?
How does having the auctioneer to log on create more griefing? You think the auctioneer is going to say "hey now that you're up and personal with me, ima charge you 100 more gold even though you won the bid with 1000 just because I feel like being a dick" or "now that we're done trading how about I PK you just to show off how cool i am". I have never ever seen that happen, everytime I log on to complete the transaction the auctioneer just trade for the agreed upon price and leaves when the trade is done.
take this scenario. Player A has 1000g, quite a bit. Player B puts an item up for bid on the AH for the cost of 900g. Player A bids on the item, and 900g is removed from his inventory(part of the AH system). Player B doesnt log on for 2 months(and doesnt complete the AH trade). Player A basically got scammed out of 900g that he cant get back(at least until Player B completes the auction).
If the AH didnt require the auctioneer to log on to complete the trade, Player A would get his item when the auction ran its course. If however the auctioneer needs to log on to complete the transaction, this kind of thing could be quite common place(especially if a rich person who doesnt need the gold finds a very rare item that people will bid a lot of gold on.)
Um, we're talking about auction house here. Why are you introducing unalike methods? Do you think D3's infrastructure as well as the fan would agree with the mailbox system as well? Instead of arguing with me about the mailbox feature here (which I'm sure you will) make a new thread to discuss about mailbox since its unrelated to AH.
I was merely offering a solution to the problem you presented(about the person not having enough inventory space), it doesnt need to be a mailbox, it could just be another window in the AH interface where you can pick up the items that you bid on(and would hold the other items until you have room to take them).
So really, its not a completely foreign system and it would play well with the AH. Its not completely unrelated to the AH if they work together.
Let me ask you this first, what is wrong with auction house? To you placing bids is a flaw that you need to bid with real money instead of stated money? That requiring traders to log on is a flaw? That having a mailbox system to complement it is the only way for it to work?
I am pro-AH, just not pro-HighlyGriefableAHMethods. And again, it seems like you arent understanding what I am saying. Placing bids is not a flaw, as long as what you are bidding is removed from your inventory(until the trade is completed or you are outbid) to prevent issues of players not having money that they bid.
And requiring the auctioneer to log on to finish the trade is a flaw, see above statement. Plus, its not as fair as a time based system.
Also, as I said above, it doesnt require a mailbox system. I was just offering a way to solve the problem you presented in the section that was quoted for that response.
I'm ignoring the mailbox complement as it is an off topic add-on which requires its own speculation by others.
Not really off topic if it is an integral feature of the AH.
So if I place a bid I would temporarily lose my money. It wouldn't matter if I could get it back if I lost the bid since I wouldn't have my money during the time I would need it. Why would I bid then? It would be like loaning your money out to a bank but getting no interest payments. Use your imagination and you'll know why that's bad.
As opposed to being able to bid for items with gold you dont have? What happens if you only have 100g and bid 4000g on an item and win the auction? Does the auctioneer get screwed and only get 100g for the item he should have gotten 4000g for? Does he have to wait until you can get the funds to buy it(and thus offering a completely new method for griefing other players)?
or if there is a system in place to prevent you from bidding more than you have in your inventory, what happens if you bid 100g and then see that you need to repair and only have 75g when the trade ends?
If you are concerned about not having enough gold for your day to day needs if you bid on an item, then either get more gold or dont bid. We dont need to bring the US economy practices into a game(living beyond your means and on money you dont really have)
I don't see where you're getting at from here.
You said that there are a lot of games that fit the "pretty polished and refined not all, but a fair amount" description. I was just commenting on how there are a lot of games that dont fit that description. And while I havent played any of those games you listed in that post, I have played plenty of other games that outright suck, and I would hope blizz doesnt pull ideas straight from them without some repolishing of the concept.
Brother Laz
02-08-2009, 02:36
What the hell is wrong with the WoW system? When you bid, your money is removed from your inventory. After 2 days, you get either the money back or the item. Simple!
Jesus, Akarat! The problem is that Blizzard are too afraid of change, not the community!
antonbomb
02-08-2009, 12:56
In a nutshell, auction houses probably mean the end of haggling.
I still think not having to wait your *** off is better however, I reckon the people who are complaining are just nostalgic. I'm still playing Diablo 2 Uswest ladder today and I don't feel that an auction house will Diablo III retarded/World of Warcraft. :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin:
:scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin:
Do I get banned for doing this?
Jesus, Akarat! The problem is that Blizzard are too afraid of change, not the community!
Looking that this tread has 24 pages of confrontation, I don't thing its just blizzard unwillingness.
AnimeCraze
02-08-2009, 23:01
I would love a real auction house, provided that gold is actually useful (say you can buy pgems/runes with it, with the example of D2). Searching for games 1 by 1 is a pain in the rear, and having people leaving game at random with an LOLNUB is simply bad. I mean, part of the reason why a forum like this existed is because people are not happy with D2's (lack of) trading system. Judging by the number of people in the trading forums, I am more than convinced that the trading system in D2 just plan sucks.
Anyways, I think the biggest problem with an auction house will be that it will drive the trading forums here extinct. I suppose that is a small price I am willing to pay.
I would love a real auction house, provided that gold is actually useful (say you can buy pgems/runes with it, with the example of D2). Searching for games 1 by 1 is a pain in the rear, and having people leaving game at random with an LOLNUB is simply bad. I mean, part of the reason why a forum like this existed is because people are not happy with D2's (lack of) trading system. Judging by the number of people in the trading forums, I am more than convinced that the trading system in D2 just plan sucks.
Anyways, I think the biggest problem with an auction house will be that it will drive the trading forums here extinct. I suppose that is a small price I am willing to pay.
I too will miss forum trading, but I do think that a properly working AH would great asset to D3.
They could still have a functioning economy without an AH, but the AH offers a perfect place to place gold sinks that are effective(they basically tax you for using the service, so at the same time you are earning money the AH is taking its cut to help prevent inflation).
One thing is for sure though, if they for some reason mess up with how their AH works, forum trading will rise again, since it sure as hell beats the in game haggle trading.
AnimeCraze
03-08-2009, 07:24
I think as long as gold (or whatever currency) is sufficiently useful, auction house will succeed, unless it is really broken.
Starving_Poet
03-08-2009, 18:35
I think as long as gold (or whatever currency) is sufficiently useful, auction house will succeed, unless it is really broken.
This statement is always true according to my old college logic textbook.
Funkopotamus
03-08-2009, 19:39
In a nutshell, auction houses probably mean the end of haggling.
I still think not having to wait your *** off is better however, I reckon the people who are complaining are just nostalgic. I'm still playing Diablo 2 Uswest ladder today and I don't feel that an auction house will Diablo III retarded/World of Warcraft.
I don't think it will eliminate haggling. In my experience with the bazaar in Everquest, only common, duplicate items had price wars and really no haggling. Crap like food and crafted sacks that went pretty fast. All the good stuff, the stuff that, while you could get a bunch of guys together and try to get one yourself, were few on the market, if any, were still haggled over.
If uniques are going to be less important, that leaves more unique items hopefully.
Keighvin
03-08-2009, 20:21
Yeah, even after they put in the Bazaar, I still remember heading the tunnel in East Commonlands to trade.
Starving_Poet
03-08-2009, 20:37
Yeah, even after they put in the Bazaar, I still remember heading the tunnel in East Commonlands to trade.
But this is impossible! No one would make the effort to trade if they could just put something up for auction! You must be making things up. :coffee:
Keighvin
03-08-2009, 22:23
Oh, I wish I was. I lost more money in that dang tunnel than I ever actually spent on equipment. Lotteries!!! *shakes fist*
Hope you don't mind if I bold my replies instead of separating your quotes, just makes it easier for me.
you are assuming my intent of the post(which is way off base). I was merely pointing out your own contradictions.
Because you keep pointing that out in such an open, conclusive way that gives the very strong impression that you're doing it to obtain praises for your "intellect".
you are taking my posts out of context. You claimed that in every trade you are ripping the other person off, but in a previous example that you yourself brought up(that rune example) you contradicted yourself claiming that people would only ever trade for exact prices of items(and thus preventing the ability to rip anyone off)
Not every trade you would get ripped off in, I'm just stating the possibility of getting ripped off since you keep thinking everyone is a fair trader. Ok hopefully this example will end this part of your argument for good:
Everyone wants their items to be sold at a higher than average price, most would accept the offers even if it is only a "standard" amount if they are bargained down by a small extent. Those who don't know the item's worth and/or desperate are going to be ripped off if the seller knows how to take advantage. Everyone wants to rip off their customers to obtain more money, however if their customers bargain the item down to below average price, the trader is unlikely to sell his item. If it was a barter system even if the trade is slightly unfair you cannot pinpoint an item's exact worth since there is no gold system to reflect it's price on. Due to that it would be extremely hard to find items to add-on to your offer to make it worth a bit more. In that case most people wouldn't mind the trade even if they are getting the lower end as in some occasions how much they need the item weighs more heavily than how much the item is worth.
take this scenario. Player A has 1000g, quite a bit. Player B puts an item up for bid on the AH for the cost of 900g. Player A bids on the item, and 900g is removed from his inventory(part of the AH system). Player B doesnt log on for 2 months(and doesnt complete the AH trade). Player A basically got scammed out of 900g that he cant get back(at least until Player B completes the auction).
If the AH didnt require the auctioneer to log on to complete the trade, Player A would get his item when the auction ran its course. If however the auctioneer needs to log on to complete the transaction, this kind of thing could be quite common place(especially if a rich person who doesnt need the gold finds a very rare item that people will bid a lot of gold on.)
Your example of a trade is more like that of ebay. You have to "trust" your trade partner, trust that he honors his deal. That method that you falsely accused me of creating is extremely flawed since why the heck would I give money first if I have no idea whether I'd get my item? The most common form of AH used today is when the money as well as the item are both traded simultaneously through a personal trade. I'd be an idiot to have an ebay AH in my game since most gamers (especially the 14 year olds) have no sense of "honor". And the AH that requires traders to personally show up is not "my" method of AH, it is the accepted method of millions of RPG/MMO players.
I was merely offering a solution to the problem you presented(about the person not having enough inventory space), it doesnt need to be a mailbox, it could just be another window in the AH interface where you can pick up the items that you bid on(and would hold the other items until you have room to take them).
But you're just adding on a list of huge compensator if your system is flawed. Every time I state a flaw in your argument, you keep saying "so what if I add this... to make it work", stick with your main point instead of introducing new ones. Why not just have a system that just works right without those? Ask the other members of this forum, would they agree with your ideas of mailbox and such?
So really, its not a completely foreign system and it would play well with the AH. Its not completely unrelated to the AH if they work together.
Mailboxes were not intended to be used by AH so I deem it as unrelated since most use it just to transfer/gift items. Why? Because it is a universal rule in MMOs/RPG that trades are to be conducted in person. Don't ask me why, just ask the game creators. By your example, you think of a mailbox as an extra stash. We already have the inventory as well as the stash in D3, why would you want more stashes? I'm not foreign to mailboxes, I always use to transfer my item to another character but leave those items remaining in the mailbox since I don't want to waste stash space.
I am pro-AH, just not pro-HighlyGriefableAHMethods. And again, it seems like you arent understanding what I am saying. Placing bids is not a flaw, as long as what you are bidding is removed from your inventory(until the trade is completed or you are outbid) to prevent issues of players not having money that they bid.
Please address my earlier reply to that statement of yours.
And requiring the auctioneer to log on to finish the trade is a flaw, see above statement. Plus, its not as fair as a time based system.
See my address earlier reply to that statement of yours.
Also, as I said above, it doesnt require a mailbox system. I was just offering a way to solve the problem you presented in the section that was quoted for that response.
There is such a thing as introducing way too much suggestions that it can make your primary point irrelevant and would go out of proportion with the game's original intents. Your suggestions would require D3 to recreate its entire trade and economy features. Try to not let your ideas dot hat.
Not really off topic if it is an integral feature of the AH.
Never seen an AH in my life that doesn't require up close trades. I've played Atlantica(very popular MMO), they have mailboxes and auctions that require the bidders to show up at (and yes, its all integrated into the game). However those two are always separated.
As opposed to being able to bid for items with gold you dont have? What happens if you only have 100g and bid 4000g on an item and win the auction? Does the auctioneer get screwed and only get 100g for the item he should have gotten 4000g for? Does he have to wait until you can get the funds to buy it(and thus offering a completely new method for griefing other players)?
Every AH has a feedback system to read trader reviews. I'll give a full example of why I think your system is ineffective:
I'll acknowledgment that your idea prevents people from wasting their time with fake bids, but I use the AH everyday whenever I play an MMO and on very rare instances does that case apply. Ok so I have 1000 gold, I bid 900 on a sword. I now have 100. I saw a shield that I want being offered by a guy in person with me for 500. Your bid can wait since it'll end in 24hours (for example) however that guy can't wait the whole day so of course I have time to attempt to regain my money. Now I have to withdraw my bid in order to get my money back (so now, instead of the 1 auctioneer having to log on, its his multiple bidders that does too if that case were to apply to them). I got my 1000 again, bought the shield for 500 and now have 500 gold left. Now I don't have money to bid that previous 1000. As I'm trying to regain my wealth before the 24hour is over, this guy that just bidded 1000 learned that I withdrew my bid of 900, now HE has to withdraw his bid since he over bidded and has to place a new, lower bid. That is just annoying to have.
or if there is a system in place to prevent you from bidding more than you have in your inventory, what happens if you bid 100g and then see that you need to repair and only have 75g when the trade ends?
I don't know... you tell me, its your idea after all.
If you are concerned about not having enough gold for your day to day needs if you bid on an item, then either get more gold or dont bid. We dont need to bring the US economy practices into a game(living beyond your means and on money you dont really have)
Tell me, what are your personal experience on bidders that don't have enough money but still "won" the bid anyways whenever you play a game that uses that classic AH method? What are the odds of that actually happening? I can still remember mine by checking my AH record: 2/20 for an old game I played. Yes that AH counted how many items I put up on bid as well as my opinion of my trade partners (I labeled those two guys as incompetent traders).
You said that there are a lot of games that fit the "pretty polished and refined not all, but a fair amount" description. I was just commenting on how there are a lot of games that dont fit that description. And while I havent played any of those games you listed in that post, I have played plenty of other games that outright suck, and I would hope blizz doesnt pull ideas straight from them without some repolishing of the concept.
Name a few for me and I could check it out. If there are games by that description you gave, chances are its a badly created game with few players, why would Blizzard feel the need to adopt ideas from those games then?
Auction houses would change the feel of Diablo vastly. There wouldn't be as many, or possibly any trade games anymore.
This, however, dictates that items will always be worth a certain amount of currency, which, is still high runes in Diablo 2. Before that, it was SoJs.
To make an auction house even work, there has to be a currency that actually matters. Gold was worthless in D2.
I am for the idea, just because I'm lazy, and I want to spend more time leveling and strengthening my character, rather than spending hours trying to find some kid I can get 3 HRs out of an enigma rather than just 2.
If I can just put my new shiny item on an auction house and keep going, I'm all for it, even if it changes the atmosphere of the game.
Sometimes change is good.
Hope you don't mind if I bold my replies instead of separating your quotes, just makes it easier for me.
it makes it more difficult for anyone responding to your points, but anyways.
Because you keep pointing that out in such an open, conclusive way that gives the very strong impression that you're doing it to obtain praises for your "intellect".
You would be better of not assuming what I am trying to say and instead reading what I am saying and taking it at face value, seeing as you can find offense in just about any statement.
Not every trade you would get ripped off in, I'm just stating the possibility of getting ripped off since you keep thinking everyone is a fair trader. Ok hopefully this example will end this part of your argument for good:
Everyone wants their items to be sold at a higher than average price, most would accept the offers even if it is only a "standard" amount if they are bargained down by a small extent. Those who don't know the item's worth and/or desperate are going to be ripped off if the seller knows how to take advantage. Everyone wants to rip off their customers to obtain more money, however if their customers bargain the item down to below average price, the trader is unlikely to sell his item. If it was a barter system even if the trade is slightly unfair you cannot pinpoint an item's exact worth since there is no gold system to reflect it's price on. Due to that it would be extremely hard to find items to add-on to your offer to make it worth a bit more. In that case most people wouldn't mind the trade even if they are getting the lower end as in some occasions how much they need the item weighs more heavily than how much the item is worth.
basically, you are anti-currency, not anti-AH. If the game has a stable currency(that blizzard actively finds a way to remove currency from the game to prevent inflation), then people will trade based on the items currency value, whether or not there is an AH in the game or not. And seeing as how you later bash me for introducing "foreign" concepts that are unrelated to there being an AH, again you are being hypocritical.
Plus, we have already seen how the barter system plays out, and there are a lot of people out there who are too stubborn to haggle on the price of anything. These are the people who take one of the price guides found on this website or others and if you "lowball" them by even something as insignificant as a couple pgems, they just leave the game(for example, I need a lem rune and only have 17 pgems, but according to the price guide they are worth 20 pgems. random pub trades will result in people leaving your game if you only offer 17 pgems. Trading on forums however is a little more forgiving, as you have a completely different class of people there.)
Your example of a trade is more like that of ebay. You have to "trust" your trade partner, trust that he honors his deal. That method that you falsely accused me of creating is extremely flawed since why the heck would I give money first if I have no idea whether I'd get my item? The most common form of AH used today is when the money as well as the item are both traded simultaneously through a personal trade. I'd be an idiot to have an ebay AH in my game since most gamers (especially the 14 year olds) have no sense of "honor". And the AH that requires traders to personally show up is not "my" method of AH, it is the accepted method of millions of RPG/MMO players.
you arent giving the money to the auctioneer and trusting that he will give it back, you are giving the money to the AH(just like the auctioneer gives his item to the AH) and the AH mediates the deal. No need for honor, as a completely unbiased mediator handles the deal(the game).
As for "your" method being accepted by millions of MMO players, I am pretty sure that the method I am proposing(the WoW method) is accepted by what now, 11+ million active subscribers? The only way to get scammed in the WoW AH method is if you are an idiot and cant count zeros, where as I have already pointed out several flaws with the AH method you are suggesting. I will admit, I have only played WoW as far as MMOs go, so I am unfamiliar with any other AH system, but I can tell you that the AH in WoW works, and it works well.
But you're just adding on a list of huge compensator if your system is flawed. Every time I state a flaw in your argument, you keep saying "so what if I add this... to make it work", stick with your main point instead of introducing new ones. Why not just have a system that just works right without those? Ask the other members of this forum, would they agree with your ideas of mailbox and such?
This is the first "outside" suggestion that I have made on the subject, everything else I have been proposing has been an integrated feature in the AH interface(and you can even see in the statement that you quoted that I offered a different suggestion that would accomplish the same thing, and not be a complete new feature in the game)
So what other outside compensators have I added?
Mailboxes were not intended to be used by AH so I deem it as unrelated since most use it just to transfer/gift items. Why? Because it is a universal rule in MMOs/RPG that trades are to be conducted in person. Don't ask me why, just ask the game creators. By your example, you think of a mailbox as an extra stash. We already have the inventory as well as the stash in D3, why would you want more stashes? I'm not foreign to mailboxes, I always use to transfer my item to another character but leave those items remaining in the mailbox since I don't want to waste stash space.
As for the bold statment, the AH in WoW has always used the mailbox as the way of delivering you your gold/items or news of you being outbid. I dont see how you can make such a baseless statement.
As far as trades requiring people to meet in person, again that isnt a universal rule(or if it is, blizz isnt afraid to break that rule) since the AH in WoW requires zero player interaction.
The mention of the mailbox being used as an extra stash was only meant to counter your argument you made about bidding on 5 items when you only have space for 3 and what would happen in that scenario. And a way to prevent people from using it as a permanent stash would be to have strict expiration timers on items(wow does it every 30 days the item has been in your mailbox, but something closer to 7-10 days could work, but that is a separate topic)
There is such a thing as introducing way too much suggestions that it can make your primary point irrelevant and would go out of proportion with the game's original intents. Your suggestions would require D3 to recreate its entire trade and economy features. Try to not let your ideas dot hat.
To be fair, D2's trade and economy features suck and have failed, so much so that a complete out of game currency has been developed(forum gold) and several out of game trading forums have become just about the only way to make fair trades(this forum included). It is time for D2's trade and economy features to be recreated.
And any inclusion of an AH(your suggestion or mine) would be completely recreating the trading scene in diablo 3.
Lastly on this subject, all of the suggestions i have been making(minus the mailbox, though I did offer a built in substitute) would be built in to the UI of the AH, they would not be their own stand alone features.
Never seen an AH in my life that doesn't require up close trades. I've played Atlantica(very popular MMO), they have mailboxes and auctions that require the bidders to show up at (and yes, its all integrated into the game). However those two are always separated.
Using ignorance on the subject is not a valid defense. I could just as easily make the very same statement about have I have never seen an AH in my life that didnt work like the WoW AH(another very popular MMO, though I doubt that Atlantica is all the popular if I have never heard a word about it) and have just as much clout as your statement there.
And lets say that every game does work just like how you are describing, what would be so wrong with thinking outside the box and trying a new system? That's the very reason I have even paid attention to your suggestion, because I am willing to hear the different view points and make a decision based on what has been presented, and all I can see from your suggestion is multiple ways for players to grief and scam each other. When comparing that to the system that WoW uses, it is quite apparent to me that the WoW system is far superior, and if I had a say in anything, would highly recommend it over less favorable methods.
Every AH has a feedback system to read trader reviews.
not every system.
so of course I have time to attempt to regain my money. Now I have to withdraw my bid in order to get my money back
You cannot withdraw a bid unless outbid(in which case your money is returned to you after the other person outbids you). Dont like it? Then dont make frivolous bids. By bidding on an item, you enter into a contract with the auctioneer(just like on these forums, it is very bad mannered to retract bids, and I know that I personally make every attempt to not trade with people that I see retracting bids often)
That is just annoying to have.
an annoyance that is completely avoided by not allowing people to retract a bid. That way people dont bid just to get others to bid the price up. It is a fairly simple system, with little room for scamming that doesnt involve player stupidity.
and yes, i did read your whole example, i only quoted the parts i felt necessary.
I don't know... you tell me, its your idea after all.
that was for your system, I know how the wow system would work in that scenario(it wouldn't let it occur in the first place since when you bid the gold is removed from your inventory)
so it is your idea after all.(complain all you want about my snarky comments, but using them yourself isnt helping your case)
Tell me, what are your personal experience on bidders that don't have enough money but still "won" the bid anyways whenever you play a game that uses that classic AH method? What are the odds of that actually happening? I can still remember mine by checking my AH record: 2/20 for an old game I played. Yes that AH counted how many items I put up on bid as well as my opinion of my trade partners (I labeled those two guys as incompetent traders).
I have never had a bidder that didnt have enough money to pay for the item he bid on in the thousands of auctions I have made since I have only used a system where the gold is removed from your inventory.
and as far as my math can tell, 0/20 is less than 2/20. And as you have stated earlier, 14 year olds have no sense of honor, so why give them the option of an AH where they can be dishonerable in the first place?
Name a few for me and I could check it out. If there are games by that description you gave, chances are its a badly created game with few players, why would Blizzard feel the need to adopt ideas from those games then?
I am done trying to explain this to you, you either arent reading what I am posting(on this sub discussion, not the entire post) or you just dont comprehend it. So until you take the time to reread through that whole sub discussion and understand what I am saying in there, I am just going to stop posting in reply to it. I am not trying to be a jerk, but it just seems you arent even making an effort to understand what I am posting.
Sometimes change is good.
This.
short and to the point, yet so true.
I want an auction house!!!!
Anything else is pure stupidity!!
If blizzard does take those in, ill buy 10 copies of d3!!
I swear!!!
THIS MAKES MY OPPINION COUNT TENFOLD!! OFFICIALLY!
@Bkkorps
That's it, I give up in arguing with you. Not only that you keep creating an endless array of add-on to keep your method alive every time I point out a flaw in it but you never fully explain to me how your system works, which is an underhanded tactic when debating, hiding facts from your opponents. When I asked you to explain your system you probably just gave it an incomplete explanation and made the rest up along the way.
You also act as if a possible error, that could happen but on rare occasion, will happen and that a large fix is needed in order to counteract that small problem. I could design a method with very little flaw and that it is "good enough", you would believe it would need to be reworked on part of a small flaw. Its not like your idea does not have faults of its own (remember... the loaning out money to banks without interest example? which you failed to address... and ignore as you do with other points you've lost). If you were arguing with yourself, you'd be trapped in an endless cycle, pointing out every tiny little detail as a problem, which is the exact reason I gave up reasoning with you.
You keep thinking that I'm a hypocrite because my barter and barter/gold but I clearly explained that I have SEPARATE suggestions for those two. Brilliant deduction about me being anti-currency, I stated it in the most obvious way a few pages ago to Starving_poet. Somehow, I'm dazzled by how you think I support barter. I don't support barter, I want it to be gone and for gold to have more importance. I don't even get how you think I support barter through my examples of what barter is like in trade and buying. I just described it, not gave my opinions of it.
D3 is NOT WoW. I don't want a mailbox feature and many others might agree with me as well. You think that the mailbox makes the game better, but it only makes the game easier. Hey, why not just give all players a full map of D3 so it saves them time and frustration if they get lost? Your mailbox and AH is just dumbing down the trade system for an 8 year old to use, we're all 18+ here (I hope) I don't worry about not having enough gold to buy X item, know why? Because I can add. Every player knows how much money they have. If they have 1000 gold but think they can buy a 1500 gold sword then well, they need help.
Sure 11million people may play WoW, but do you think they really all like it? Yes, they all do because it just means less work for them and the fact that since they are currently playing WoW, they'll just have to accept it. Do all fans of a future release feel the same way, being able to have everything is child friendly? By the way, D2 has 4million players in US I believe, Maple Story have 67 million world wide (5-10million in US I guess).
Now I know why arguing with you is pointless, everything you say is WoW this WoW that, everything that is different from WoW is automatically wrong right? I bet are you are full time WoW player aside from D2 so even if I can use those other games as an example, you wouldn't take it in consideration so its useless for me to continue.
To make it short on why I don't like your method, it requires add-ons in terms of new game functions if it doesn't work out. A traditional AH house is effective, even make a survey on who likes the tradition AH and you'll find good results. So your idea is like... having a car, then it turns out your car is polluting a lot, then you have to bring it in for a new, more fuel efficient engine at your expense, then your car also seems to be having problems getting into tight parking spaces, so you have to bring it in to shave off a few inches to make it smaller, at your expense. Although your idea may not cost the customers money, will they agree with the newly introduced methods that they have no say in?
What I'm going to say here will make me a hypocrite:
Those are the only points I think are worth replying to, I'm getting tired, now I'm being rude. (now is your queue to say your favorite line). I'll submit out of this endless cycle. I'm not going back to this page either since I have the temptation of jumping back into arguments I try to stay out of.
Oh, go to this website (www.mmosite.com), if you're an MMO player but never heard of this website, you fail. Check out what game is ranked one, not by number of players, but by reviews of players. Its under the "highest ranked" tab in the middle of the page, right side.
That's it, I give up in arguing with you. Not only that you keep creating an endless array of add-on to keep your method alive every time I point out a flaw in it but you never fully explain to me how your system works, which is an underhanded tactic when debating, hiding facts from your opponents. When I asked you to explain your system you probably just gave it an incomplete explanation and made the rest up along the way.
point out this endless array of addons to keeping my method alive, as the only thing remotely close to that is the mailbox(and I even offered a counter offer of an integrated feature that you coincidentally ignored, several times)
And I have explained fully the system. you put an item up for auction and it is removed from your inventory. That is all the auctioneer does, after that he waits for his item back if noone bought it, or waits for the gold if they do.
As a bidder, when you place a bid, the gold is removed from your inventory. You get this money back if you are outbid, if you arent outbid at the end of the auction, you receive the item.
placing a bid on the item adds more time to the auction to prevent snipers.
that is it.
as for the bolded part, nice job paying attention to what you are reading.
You also act as if a possible error, that could happen but on rare occasion, will happen and that a large fix is needed in order to counteract that small problem. I could design a method with very little flaw and that it is "good enough", you would believe it would need to be reworked on part of a small flaw. Its not like your idea does not have faults of its own (remember... the loaning out money to banks without interest example? which you failed to address... and ignore as you do with other points you've lost). If you were arguing with yourself, you'd be trapped in an endless cycle, pointing out every tiny little detail as a problem, which is the exact reason I gave up reasoning with you.
if that possible error is people bidding with money they dont have/wont have when the auction ends, then that does need a large fix. For someone who complains about honorless 14 year olds, you dont seem to see the flaws in the honor system.
The whole bit about loaning out money without getting interest is basically summed up like this. First, you can consider the interest that you would get as your payment for using the service. Second, its not like these bids are open for weeks upon weeks(unlike the possible scenario in your method), any interest accumulated in 2 days is likely to have little effect on your money pool.
As for the points I lost, you should point those out, since I cannot seem to find any. You like to talk in absolutes(every game does it this way, every time I disagree with you it means I lost) and when talking about hypothetical situations, it is often better to stay away from absolutes.
You keep thinking that I'm a hypocrite because my barter and barter/gold but I clearly explained that I have SEPARATE suggestions for those two. Brilliant deduction about me being anti-currency, I stated it in the most obvious way a few pages ago to Starving_poet. Somehow, I'm dazzled by how you think I support barter. I don't support barter, I want it to be gone and for gold to have more importance. I don't even get how you think I support barter through my examples of what barter is like in trade and buying. I just described it, not gave my opinions of it.
I dont know about you, but I havent been referencing barter vs barter/gold for at least a page and a half now, I have been talking about the flaws in your style of AH where they can place notes about side bids, requiring the auctioneer to close the auction, and the ability to bid beyond your means leaving a large loophole for anyone who doesnt have the cash when the auction clears.
I only mentioned you being anti-currency because you seemed to have derailed and believe that having an AH will have any impact whatsoever on people only trading items for their currency value(since that would happen in any currency based system, with or without an AH)
and you do support bartering, even if it isnt the only method of trade(which even in D2 there is currency trading) since your whole AH idea banks on bartering.
D3 is NOT WoW. I don't want a mailbox feature and many others might agree with me as well. You think that the mailbox makes the game better, but it only makes the game easier. Hey, why not just give all players a full map of D3 so it saves them time and frustration if they get lost? Your mailbox and AH is just dumbing down the trade system for an 8 year old to use, we're all 18+ here (I hope) I don't worry about not having enough gold to buy X item, know why? Because I can add. Every player knows how much money they have. If they have 1000 gold but think they can buy a 1500 gold sword then well, they need help.
I know D3 isnt WoW, but it also isnt any of those other games you have been suggesting. Looking at blizzards track record, it is safe to assume that D3 will improve/borrow a lot of ideas from WoW because of their past. WoW borrowed a lot of concepts from D2 and in most cases made them better. Expecting blizzard to completely ignore all of the fully funtioning ideas from WoW when it comes to features for D3 is a very ignorant train of thought.
I am not even pushing for a mailbox, you have just convinced yourself that I am. It was merely a minor suggestion to solve a problem that you yourself posed(isnt that the point of a discussion, offering solutions to problems presented to you from other parties?) I never said that it would require a mailbox, I have never even stated whether or not I think a mailbox would be an improvement for D3(again, you are making up stuff and thinking I said it)
and while you can(somewhat) ensure that you yourself will never bid beyond what you have available(or what you think you will have available when the auction closes) you cannot say the same thing for everyone else. What if a person is expecting a bunch of items he listed on the AH to be sold so that he can afford that weapon he bid on, and in the end noone bought them?
Btw, talk about someone not responding to concepts that they cannot explain, you never offered a retort as to what happens if someone doesnt have the gold at the time the auction closes.
Sure 11million people may play WoW, but do you think they really all like it? Yes, they all do because it just means less work for them and the fact that since they are currently playing WoW, they'll just have to accept it. Do all fans of a future release feel the same way, being able to have everything is child friendly? By the way, D2 has 4million players in US I believe, Maple Story have 67 million world wide (5-10million in US I guess).
seeing how this statement is all fluff, i'll move on.
Now I know why arguing with you is pointless, everything you say is WoW this WoW that, everything that is different from WoW is automatically wrong right? I bet are you are full time WoW player aside from D2 so even if I can use those other games as an example, you wouldn't take it in consideration so its useless for me to continue.
when talking about an AH, and my suggestion for an AH is to use the WoW AH, it is safe to assume that if I am on topic(talking about AH) then yes, it will contain a lot of statements about WoW.
I havent played WoW in months though, since a lot of their decisions for the direction of the game dont appeal to me, they are making the game way too easy(imagine that, i dont like the game to be too easy, though you seem to have this thought in your mind that I would want it that way, wonder where that came from), and while a lot of their recent decisions are not to my liking, their AH is tried and true. It works, you cannot scam people unless they screw up on obvious things, it is quick and efficient.
and I am more than willing to hear other suggestions, but you havent been able to give an answer to any of my concerns about how your system for an AH would be able to handle glaring problems other than "In the 22 trades I made in game X, 9% of the people I traded with sucked and exploited the system" Yet when you posted your problems about how my suggestion for an AH would work, I was able to give a straight answer that was fair for all parties involved(but then you go an call them an unneeded extra feature, even though they are just features of the AH)
WoW is far from perfect(if it were I would probably still be playing it), but one of the things they got right was the AH.
To make it short on why I don't like your method, it requires add-ons in terms of new game functions if it doesn't work out. A traditional AH house is effective, even make a survey on who likes the tradition AH and you'll find good results. So your idea is like... having a car, then it turns out your car is polluting a lot, then you have to bring it in for a new, more fuel efficient engine at your expense, then your car also seems to be having problems getting into tight parking spaces, so you have to bring it in to shave off a few inches to make it smaller, at your expense. Although your idea may not cost the customers money, will they agree with the newly introduced methods that they have no say in?
What add ons? the mailbox(which has a non mailbox alternative solution)? I cannot even tell if that analogy holds any water because I cannot figure out what all these add ons are. Statements like the very first line in that quote make me believe you arent even reading what I am saying and that you just make **** up in your head and post like I said it.
What I'm going to say here will make me a hypocrite:
Those are the only points I think are worth replying to, I'm getting tired, now I'm being rude. (now is your queue to say your favorite line). I'll submit out of this endless cycle. I'm not going back to this page either since I have the temptation of jumping back into arguments I try to stay out of.
The only way that can make you a hypocrite is if you come back and respond.
Oh, go to this website, if you're an MMO player but never heard of this website, you fail. Check out what game is ranked one, not by number of players, but by reviews of players. Its under the "highest ranked" tab in the middle of the page, right side.
I have never heard of that site, but after looking through it, I cannot see how not knowing about that site would make me fail. nothing on there is anything special as far as information about the games I have played, and far as offering reviews of games, welcome to the internet where there are thousands of webpages that serve that function. Never once had that website came up in any WoW forum that I visited(and it is quite noticable, only 1000 reviews? there are more self haters than that who play WoW that would downrank it in a heartbeat, and that's just on this forum alone).
so unless there is some hidden gem of a feature on that website that blows every other run of the mill review website out of the water, I am not seeing how that website is gods gift to man for all thinks MMO.
BTW, I wouldnt have to bring up you being a hypocrite so much if you didnt fit the description to the letter, even in your "closing" statement you talk about me dodging arguments that you claim I have no answer too, but the moment I give you plenty of things to explain about your system, you turn tail and claim its because I am too stubborn about my beliefs(which is a flip flop all in itsself).
I hope you do come back though, since I wich you would explain how your system would be able to handle the problems I presented. I am always open to new ideas.
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