Magic Finding - A Plus or Minus to D3?

[krzysztof]

Let me begin by saying that I have done my fair share of magic finding in Diablo 2 and who hasn't.

I was thinking however, when I read a post that alluded to something very true about many Diablo 2 players - we have mules and mules and mules full of useless (to us) items that we spent countless hours on getting. Yet, they sit and collect dust.

My question is: do you think that magic finding, while providing something for players to do, actually harms the game? Should the influx of items be slower and thus more meaningful, should the average player be "less-geared" to balance this?

I for one have left many extremely good uniques on the ground, unidentified, simply because "oh, I already have three of those."

Should endgame be geared into a different direction than countless boss runs for items we will never actually use?

I understand the idea of group drops, so of course there will be less competition, so I suppose the actual question at the heart of this matter is that to valuable items actually appear too much?

What are your thoughts?

[Fox VII]

I want my character to be death incarnate! :evil:

I would much rather have a better global drop rate for the whole game than to be encouraged to use gimped gear that doesn't adding something tangible to my characters "power level".

When MF items, which are designed to help one find items with better mods, are prefered over items that have those better mods, something has to be wrong. :scratchchin:

Really the best arguement for the mod is to allow one to take on more challenge in order to get better drops. If that's the case, all classes should have pratical access to it equally. For this reason, I'd be content with magic find if it was a random mod only. Having this mod provide massive bonuses when on a unique results in very prominate cookie cutter MF builds that are not accessible or practical for all classes..

[SlechtWeerBeer]

I would much rather have a better global drop rate for the whole game than to be encouraged to use gimped gear that doesn't adding something tangible to my characters "power level".

It's over nine thousaaaand!
Sorry.

On topic: I prefer MF. Having a global drop increase would probably cause some now-rare drops to drop a lot more simply because people play the game with massive damage gear. To find awesome loot, you should have to give up that massive damage partially (in D2, this didn't completely work out properly. Barbarians sucked with MF gear for what I've seen; Sorcs were mostly unaffected).

[Risingred]

krzysztof, I would say that there are a couple things to keep in mind.
I am still MFing in SP. I enjoy it a lot. But do I want it to return? I suppose that depends.

You have so much stuff laying around because the game is very old and people generally have what they need.
Storage space is ridiculously limited.
You have to mule which is a pain in the butt and, often, it isn't worth the trouble.
We have duping galore.
We are not able to easily trade with other players. There is no intuitive system for this.
Gold is meaningless.
People generally have one build, and one set of gear to accompany said build. There are no respecs.

It all depends on how they handle these functions, really, and if they have some sort of auction house and shared stash.

[Kiroptus]

Im a bit confused, this is about the act of hunting item or the mod "Change to find magic items"?

If its the first, surely it has to be in the game as its the main attractive of the Diablo series.

If its the latter, we had a discussion on that here: And to me the magic find mod has to go, it forces people to use it on PVM to get good loot and loot is one of the main aspects of the game, such an item mod shouldnt exist in a game like Diablo (diablo is pretty much the only loot based game with this mechanic) you should build your characters to be stronger and not ignore gear that is obviously better for your build in sake of keeping Magic find items on your character. Also it makes caster builds a much more preferable magic find character, which has no sense, any character in diablo should have the power to find good loot, its the main point of the game FFS. Plus if Diablo 3 is going to promote coop group play, this mod also goes against it because you are gimping your character in sake of the Magic Find mod and thus, being weaker to the party and with individual drops you are only benefiting yourself.

The item mod "chance to find magic items" is just bad design, get rid of it. We already had a long discussion on that:

here

http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727386

and here:

http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727730

[hubb]

Better global drop rates, at least for SP. Multiplayer you have a couple of hundred or thousand people potentially finding an item that you want. SP there's just you.

Also, MF fails.

[sreda]

Let me begin by saying that I have done my fair share of magic finding in Diablo 2 and who hasn't.

I was thinking however, when I read a post that alluded to something very true about many Diablo 2 players - we have mules and mules and mules full of useless (to us) items that we spent countless hours on getting. Yet, they sit and collect dust.

My question is: do you think that magic finding, while providing something for players to do, actually harms the game? Should the influx of items be slower and thus more meaningful, should the average player be "less-geared" to balance this?

I for one have left many extremely good uniques on the ground, unidentified, simply because "oh, I already have three of those."

Should endgame be geared into a different direction than countless boss runs for items we will never actually use?

I understand the idea of group drops, so of course there will be less competition, so I suppose the actual question at the heart of this matter is that to valuable items actually appear too much?

What are your thoughts?

An interesting speculation. I feel as though the items in D3 are GOING to be valuable when you get them. They have MF already in D3, and it's in working order, I was really hoping they wouldn't bring it back. But now it seems with MF gear, everyone is going to have to get "the best MF gear" and start farming bosses. I don't want this game to turn out like D2 AT all as far as that goes. But I'm sure Blizzard took that into account already, so either way I guess I'll roll with it.

[VeeSe]

I definitely think that MFing needs to be toned down a lot. 99% of the players on bnet and a good proportion of players here don't actually play Diablo 2 anymore. They just build characters akin to god, and run over everything. What's the point of that? The real challenge of diablo 2 is to beat the game untwinked like it was designed to be played ("Rares" are actually, omg, rare, and you aren't disappointed to see a rare instead of a unique).

Think about it from my point of view: Anybody can beat the game and build a godlike character with amazing gear, there's no challenge; something I think people have lost among their mountains of mules and loot. What are they accumulating this for? To strut their amazing inventories on the internet? It means nothing these days to be "rich", because everybody can do this, not just the people who have been playing for a long time (who would then have seen their fair share of uniques and be legitimately wealthy). This being said, I feel like dueling would then become more difficult because not everybody would be on the same playing field, but that's another issue in itself. Just a few reasons why I think MFing should be toned down.

[kreeper]

MF only provides some people with something extra to do. If you don't like the idea of MF and gimping your character to do so then by all means ignore its existance and let those of us who enjoy such a concept that became an important part of our Diablo experience enjoy it. I see nothing wrong with MF what so ever. Its not going to stop people from doing boss runs to get gear if its gone. The price to pay if you choose to use gear that increases item drop quality is a less effective character at doing so. Also I don't know why people complain the sorc was best outfitted to MF. Of course certain classes are going to be more effective for certain aspects of gameplay, its inevitable. However this go around with loot being put out much more I would say tone down MF aswell but getting rid of MF doesn't solve anything.

[Kiroptus]

The MF mod only create a bad psicological effect to PVM play. You need to equip the MF gear otherwise you feel you lose way too much oportunities of good drops. If its removed, all gear choices will be based around whenever if it fits your character build and not based around having more appreciation of the core of the game which is finding loot.

And its true, certain classes will be better at certain aspects of the game but those aspects should be things like crowd control, boss killing, mobility, versatility, etc... but never such an important thing as being the best in item hunting. That every class should be able to do as it is the most important aspect of the game. If for example the Magic Find mod returns and the the wizard is the best class to item hunt due to those types of gear being usable on this class, then we are back with Diablo 2 where people filled their accs with sorcs because of their Magic find mod compatibility.

[Risingred]

What are they accumulating this for? To strut their amazing inventories on the internet?

I play SP now. Why do I MF? Because I like to. That's all there is to it.


Just a few reasons why I think MFing should be toned down.

Which is fine. But there's no reason to assume eliticism out of someone who enjoys something.

[raveharu]

Perhaps they can make magic finding a really really rare bonus attribute, so that not everyone can afford to do it.

They can also used it to promote cooperation playing for MP, like everyone in the same map within a certain radius gets an additional 50% chance of finding better items, something like that.

[PahaLukki]

Have to agree, MF fails. I never made an MF char or ran Mephisto's or anything.. I would be glad to see such nonsensical gameplay go.

[DWS]

I play SP now. Why do I MF? Because I like to. That's all there is to it.




Which is fine. But there's no reason to assume eliticism out of someone who enjoys something.

You don't need the MF stat to hunt items.

I think do away with it. Because people can still hunt items without this ridiculous stat. It doesn't even make logical sense? What is it, Luck?

[Zek]

MF should be gone. You should find loot by playing the game with all your badass gear, not by handicapping yourself.

[Risingred]

You don't need the MF stat to hunt items.

I think do away with it. Because people can still hunt items without this ridiculous stat. It doesn't even make logical sense? What is it, Luck?

Logical sense? :p

No, you don't need MF to item hunt. But I'm not talking about just plain old item hunting. I like seeing all kinds of gold items drop from bosses. I just like seeing what drops. It's this weird kind of...zen thing I guess.

But I could do without MF, certainly. I mean, I've been playing for 10 years now with a few breaks, and that explains why I do it SP, lol.
If they do add it for whatever reason, at least cap it to something like 50%. Hopefully the drops will be balanced enough where they wouldn't feel that MF added to the game at all.

[vegetolo]

I really hope they get rid of the magic finding attribute. At least when it comes to equipment.

I'm okay with certain areas or enemies being more or less likely to give you better magic items, but because this is already a game about killing monsters over and over again anyways for rare items, magic find just makes it more convoluted.

[Extacide]

Didn't they say they were going to fix MF'ing so it wasn't just Sorcs doing all the MF'ing, and that any character could run through and find decent gear without teleport? Referring to D3 of course, I don't know if they're bringing back teleport or not, I didn't read up on it.

Thought Bashiok said something on that in regards to MF. I hope they do; Thats my only beef with MF.

[greyskin]

I would love to see MF back in D3, but it should be more expensive in an item-budget kind of way. Meaning that you should severely gimp your self when ever you choose to increase MF, not like in d2 where some of the most powerfull items also included MF that is just stupid as i see it.

The MF gear should be something you could equip and go back to do some allready cleared levels, and it should be insainly hard/impossible to clear end game content with MF gear.

At least thats the way I would like to see it. Item farming will still be done, MF or no MF.

[Hrus]

I don't understand why people are bothered with MF concept.
There will allways be some kind of runs in Diablo like games. Imagine now no MF - every vet will have the same (boring) - most powerful setup. I for example am a MF runner and I like the choices which MF gives me - "should I add more MF at cost of killspeed?" or "should I use whole TR set instead of 3 pieces + Shako + HoTo?" , "Should I use HoTo or Oculus?"
IMHO more variety is fun.

And about untwinked characters, see how the best players in SP hardcore untwinked tournaments wear a lot of MF?
MF brings a wonderful twist... You need to balance your goals - EXP or Items? Both purposes for one character or two specialized characters?

Again having good MF character is a goal (different from having the good EXP hunting char or having the good PvP char) and MF mod in items makes this goal interesting. And having more goals in the game is good for having fun. Doing different things. Hunt different areas, having different builds for specific areas... You just don't get bored so soon in the "end-game".

And of course, they have to balance characters, they are unbalanced in D2, but hey, they already said they want to balance them...

EDIT: Interesting thing (might be a coincidence), but so far in this thread, forumites, who think MF is bad, have under 100 postcount...

[Pyrohemia]

The diminishing returns formula for unique and set magic find confuses the average Diablo 2 player. People put on 800% MF and then say "I have such high MF%, why aren't good items raining down?". This could be simplified by showing the different stats in game, and by either having seperate magic find stats for each item type: unique, set, rare, magic and whatever else is unannounced, or by using a linear relation between the different stats. For the linear relation let your bonus to rare MF% be 2/3 that of magic items, sets: 1/3 and uniques: 1/4.

I would prefer a drop system without MF% altogether because it is more fun to kill with ultimate equipment as opposed to with gimped equipment in order to get enough MF% or GF%, but I will accept and take advantage of whatever system Blizzard chooses to use.

[SlechtWeerBeer]

I would prefer a drop system without MF% altogether because it is more fun to kill with ultimate equipment as opposed to with gimped equipment in order to get enough MF% or GF%, but I will accept and take advantage of whatever system Blizzard chooses to use.

Removing MF does mean that any average Joe has a moderate chance on finding a unique. Well, either that or no one has a reasonable chance to see a unqiue drop. MF gives players that sacrifice damage a bigger chance on finding a unique. The one problem is of course properly balancing MF vs. Damage (lol sorcs).
Unique can be replaced by Rare, Legendary, Uber, Awesome or whatever (magic) item type you prefer.

[Extacide]

I would prefer a drop system without MF% altogether because it is more fun to kill with ultimate equipment as opposed to with gimped equipment in order to get enough MF% or GF%, but I will accept and take advantage of whatever system Blizzard chooses to use.

Then don't? The way MF was added in was that a bunch of gear was rare and you had to kill alot to get it. Then MF was added as a small bonus incase you wanted a slightly better chance. People in D2 just took the concept and spearheaded it to oblivion. MF doesn't have that much of an impact. With MF or without, you'll grind for hours to find high-end gear; and if you get lucky, it was more or less how lucky you were to roll a 1 in 3,000, than that 800% MF reducing that chance to 2600 or however the formula worked.

Think about it. :/

[Typoko]

Hi!

One thing i don't want to happen is what happened to me and my friends when we started D2 a year ago again for few months. Everyone started different class so we could spread the gear around what we got. In the end the sorc provided the gear for everyone eaven if i was playign more in hours, but the sorc can tele run mephi so fast that javazon had nothing to say to it. I didin't run with MF gear as i pretty much needed every bit of damage i could get from gear to beat hell (i didin't use any guides for the build so i guess i failed D2).

Biggest difference in classes are that casters can pretty much swap their weapon to what ever they like and not gimp their damage. If barbarian weilds bad weapons that have good MF he won't get anything done. As it is weapons usually have good mods compared to other items so it only makes it worse. Also ranged classes tend to be more efficent in grinding anyways.

What i want from the game is somewhat equal grinding possibilities for every class with MF or not. I don't want to make Wizard just to get to run with teleport to get the gear my barbarian needs.

PS: i think MF should stay in the game but be scaled down a bit more.

[Intend]

MFing I always thought was a poorly thought out aspect of D2. Leaving it out of D3 is actually one move I completely applaud.

Why should my ultra build not be able to ID items to something decent because his gear has no MF? Having to create a character soley for MFing is redundant. It's an RPG, your character should be able to plow through baddies and have an equal chance as another one on the same difficulty.

MF is overkill and there are far more less lazy ways to add in gameplay mechanics.

[vegetolo]

Then don't? The way MF was added in was that a bunch of gear was rare and you had to kill alot to get it. Then MF was added as a small bonus incase you wanted a slightly better chance. People in D2 just took the concept and spearheaded it to oblivion. MF doesn't have that much of an impact. With MF or without, you'll grind for hours to find high-end gear; and if you get lucky, it was more or less how lucky you were to roll a 1 in 3,000, than that 800% MF reducing that chance to 2600 or however the formula worked.

I get what you're saying about it being basically being a luxury that's supposed to be limited in use, but there's a couple of problems I see:

For one, it tempts people who are new at the game into using it and expecting a big result, only to find out later that they basically wasted time and gold for basically nothing.

And two, it kind of contradicts itself since rare armor may not have any magic find, and could lead you to choosing between getting the best armor and losing magic find or just getting crazy amounts of magic find for no reason.

[Risingred]

MFing I always thought was a poorly thought out aspect of D2. Leaving it out of D3 is actually one move I completely applaud.

They didn't leave it out. It was in the last blizzcon build.

[Feramors]

I think MF should be included in D3, but on a limited basis.

In D2, it's a LOT easier to be a Sorc and MF than any other class. In my opinion. That needs to go. Either make it that only certain equipment slots can hold MF items, or make it so that MF items can only be held in your inventory. OR, keep it as is but make it so items which give MF actually give you negative stats/hp's/moves, etc. So you'll REALLY have to think twice about putting on that MF piece of equipment. "I can MF through this area and perhaps get a few good items, but I may die."

[Kiroptus]

MF was never balanced on that sense of "you are sacrificing damage for MF! You find more stuff but you kill less!" it never worked like this, a sorc or a hammerdin or any caster with MF didnt kill that slower against a caster with power gear.

Its not about how effective MF was or not, its the psicological effect it creates on a loot centric game, it doesnt matter if it changes the odds slightly or not, its that even if it changes just a little bit, the players WILL feel the need to use it and prefer it over power gear in PVM.

All MF did was to force PVM players into wearing tons of MF because of odds. And yes thats what MF does, it FORCES players because one the main attractives of the game is finding loot, a MOD that makes your odds to find loot increase will certainly be the most preferable mod of the game.

[br0d]

I was thinking however, when I read a post that alluded to something very true about many Diablo 2 players - we have mules and mules and mules full of useless (to us) items that we spent countless hours on getting. Yet, they sit and collect dust.


I know what you mean. When I was playing D2 I MFed a *lot* and had 7+ mule accounts. D3 having an auction house system will solve this problem though. I make considerable use of the AH in WoW and it makes managing large amounts of loot quite easy.


My question is: do you think that magic finding, while providing something for players to do, actually harms the game?


Not really. It's something for the obsessive people (like me) to do. It's like any grinding in a RPG - you can choose to do it and be more powerful, or not do it and be less powerful.

[Mackan]

Magic Find should stay in the game. It's too cool. But perhaps your luck could come from drinking an elixir instead or something.

[Buu]

I just hope they can balance out MF between the classes.

[Darkflight]

If they balance the MF capability of all the classes, MF is a welcome addition in Diablo III for me.

[Typoko]

Hi!

Magic Find should stay in the game. It's too cool. But perhaps your luck could come from drinking an elixir instead or something.

This made me think. You could trade items to elixirs of magic find. It would last for an hour or so and the amount how many you get depends on the level of the item.

The best side of this would be that eventually, these could be used as currency for items. You would rather trade the item for 4 elixirs than sell it to npc and get 2. I think this could have potential.

[Kalara]

I don't understand why people are bothered with MF concept.
There will allways be some kind of runs in Diablo like games. Imagine now no MF - every vet will have the same (boring) - most powerful setup. I for example am a MF runner and I like the choices which MF gives me - "should I add more MF at cost of killspeed?" or "should I use whole TR set instead of 3 pieces + Shako + HoTo?" , "Should I use HoTo or Oculus?"
IMHO more variety is fun.

And about untwinked characters, see how the best players in SP hardcore untwinked tournaments wear a lot of MF?
MF brings a wonderful twist... You need to balance your goals - EXP or Items? Both purposes for one character or two specialized characters?

Again having good MF character is a goal (different from having the good EXP hunting char or having the good PvP char) and MF mod in items makes this goal interesting. And having more goals in the game is good for having fun. Doing different things. Hunt different areas, having different builds for specific areas... You just don't get bored so soon in the "end-game".

And of course, they have to balance characters, they are unbalanced in D2, but hey, they already said they want to balance them...

EDIT: Interesting thing (might be a coincidence), but so far in this thread, forumites, who think MF is bad, have under 100 postcount...

I agree with just about all of the above so ill go ahead and just quote it. I do hope that we will see a few changes to MF though. Less importance on the bos run and more on clearing, and evening out the mf ability of the classes would be the top two on the list.

[Zarniwoop]

I want a loot system at least as good as D2s. I want my own stat customization without gear.

It sounds like gear will be less interesting, not more. But, I'm very hopeful that I'm wrong. Because the hunt for that special item that changes the game suddenly is more than just something to do. It's a huge portion of what keeps players playing.

[Onehouse]

Im a bit confused, this is about the act of hunting item or the mod "Change to find magic items"?

If its the first, surely it has to be in the game as its the main attractive of the Diablo series.

If its the latter, we had a discussion on that here: And to me the magic find mod has to go, it forces people to use it on PVM to get good loot and loot is one of the main aspects of the game, such an item mod shouldnt exist in a game like Diablo (diablo is pretty much the only loot based game with this mechanic) you should build your characters to be stronger and not ignore gear that is obviously better for your build in sake of keeping Magic find items on your character. Also it makes caster builds a much more preferable magic find character, which has no sense, any character in diablo should have the power to find good loot, its the main point of the game FFS. Plus if Diablo 3 is going to promote coop group play, this mod also goes against it because you are gimping your character in sake of the Magic Find mod and thus, being weaker to the party and with individual drops you are only benefiting yourself.

The item mod "chance to find magic items" is just bad design, get rid of it. We already had a long discussion on that:

here

http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727386

and here:

http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727730

....and here , over a year old: http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=670143&highlight=onehouse

But to recoup, using MF items to find power items that you aren't going to use because you are using MF items is just very very very bad design. It caters to the "collector" type of player. The whole idea of gimping your character in order to find items to make him stronger, but not ending up using them is, well, anyone can see that MF has to go in it's current form.

IF there were to be a MF system in D3 it needs to be implemented in a way were it won't interfere with the character and the normal items. Like a totally own system, like enchants that only add MF to already existing items and at the same time not taking up an enchant or gem slot or the like depending on what ever mechanics exist in D3.

Nuff said on this imo!

[Galtrovan]

In D2:Classic MF was fine. It wasn't until D2:LOD introduced all the BS 50%-100% MF items for each and every item slot (30%+ for rings/ammys), and the MF charms that MF became broken. In fact, MF was literally broken when D2:LOD was released. Above a certain %, everything that dropped was set or unique. Blizzard introduced all these new items, didn't bother to change the MF formula from Classic to LOD, and never tested the system, or any of the 1.08 items for that matter.

Needless to say, 1.08 was replaced with 1.09 as quickly as possible. With this precedent of removing overpowered items from the game, I'm baffled as to why a whole slew of new overpowered items were introduced in 1.10.

[fiero]

....and here , over a year old: http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=670143&highlight=onehouse

But to recoup, using MF items to find power items that you aren't going to use because you are using MF items is just very very very bad design. It caters to the "collector" type of player. The whole idea of gimping your character in order to find items to make him stronger, but not ending up using them is, well, anyone can see that MF has to go in it's current form.

IF there were to be a MF system in D3 it needs to be implemented in a way were it won't interfere with the character and the normal items. Like a totally own system, like enchants that only add MF to already existing items and at the same time not taking up an enchant or gem slot or the like depending on what ever mechanics exist in D3.

Nuff said on this imo!

What exactly is wrong with the "collector" type of player? Collecting things is fun.

[Starving_Poet]

My position as a grailer (i.e. a Collector):

I have to agree with the assessment that using MF to find items that you'll never wear because you use all your equipment to increase your MF to lessen your time MFing to find your items is ridiculous.

*inhale*

[Brother Laz]

Needless to say, 1.08 was replaced with 1.09 as quickly as possible. With this precedent of removing overpowered items from the game

O? 1.09 was about cow farming with Buriza and Shaftstop. Those weren't too overpowered compared to 1.10 gear, but they sure were much more powerful than their alternatives.

Ever since LoD, this power spike from specific items has always been present.

[Galtrovan]

O? 1.09 was about cow farming with Buriza and Shaftstop. Those weren't too overpowered compared to 1.10 gear, but they sure were much more powerful than their alternatives.

Ever since LoD, this power spike from specific items has always been present.

I never said there were not any overpowered items in 1.09. I said the 1.08 items were freaking ridiculous and removed, and that I didn't understand why after 1.09 took a step in the right direction that Blizzard released 1.10 with items even more ridiculous than those in 1.08.