Mana/Life Stealing = Mana/Life Globes?

[Romak]

In Diablo 3 we're having the new health and mana globes system that everybody know about. I generally like the idea of not having to arrange potions every once in a while. And the system in which "The more you slay, the healthier you get" is pretty much cutting the time period in Diablo 2, after you kill the monster -> Pick up the potion -> Drink it. Really, saves alot of time.

But now when I think of it... isn't that exactly like mana and life stealing? If the more you slay the healthier you get, why not just have the life/mana automatically transferred to you according to the damage you deal? (in regenration form, of course, just like the globes). I think it was Jay who once said "...you're low on health - you kill some monsters..." or something like that to describe the globe system. So despite the fact that life/mana stealing is not likely coming back, the globe system is not too far from that. The only gameplay difference I can think of is the fact that with the globe you actually need to 'pick it up' if you killed from range or something... well, okay there's also that thingie that when you pick up a health orb, it also heals nearby allies, but it's not like they can't do it with life stealing (simply heal allies near the damage dealer). So, if they simply make it mana/life stealing, range characters won't be discriminated by having to go the extra distance to pick it up, and also there won't be ugly floating globes on the screen blocking your pretty view.

You could say that the globe system is somewhere between Diablo 2's potion system and my idea of a complete life/mana management through damage dealing. So... do you get my point?

[Fox VII]

The globes promote more tactical gameplay due to:

1.) positioning - Do I really want to wade into that big group of monsters for some more health?
2.) heals nearby allies - I better go save that low life and enemy swarmed ally by killing that mob near him so that he'll have some orbs to pick up.
3.) delayed gratification - Pac Man would loss if he ate all of the little power ups when none of the ghosts were around. You better wisely choose when to pick up that globe.
4.) not percentage based - The disconnect between damage and healing makes for easier game balance, less need for one hit kill monsters and more flexibility in character design (to not be a glass cannon).

[Romak]

1) Like I said, this is one of the things that discriminates range characters, they need to go the extra distance to pick up globes, while melee characters don't really ask themselves if they want to wade through the mod - they are already in the mob. (unless, they save the globes for later like you said in point #3, which actually make sense)

2) One of the things that can be done both ways. If globes heal nearby allies, so can your hits. You go kill the monster to save your ally, and in the process, steal life for both of you.

3) You actually have a very good point here. I didn't think of that. It also supports claim #1 in some occasions.

4) Oh, I didn't speak of precentage and definately not on 'life stealing' as it was in Diablo 2. The whole precentage system of leeching in D2 was screwed up. Besides, we don't know for how much the health globes exactly heal you, and according to what. It can work exactly the same as the globes. In both cases, a slow-killing character gets health slower.

I also wanted to mention that the fameous question "How will we manage mana and health during boss fights with no minions?" is gone if we're talking about healing during fighting. And yes, I know there was already an answer to that question.

[SlechtWeerBeer]

Casters don't benefit from Leech.
That is all.

[Risingred]

1) Like I said, this is one of the things that discriminates range characters, they need to go the extra distance to pick up globes, while melee characters don't really ask themselves if they want to wade through the mod - they are already in the mob. (unless, they save the globes for later like you said in point #3, which actually make sense)

Ranged characters aren't supposed to be getting hit nearly as much, so it balances out. I like the globes just fine as long as the drop rate isn't too high.

[paperkut]

I'm not sure exactly how the globes work but I'm guessing not every baddie drops one when he dies. If this is the case then you can't just simply dive into combat and start swinging to gain health back, you actually have to be careful until you put one down that drops a globe.

[Foodspice]

Hi guys, this is my first post on this forum (I've been lurking for quite a while now and really enjoy many of your posts).

I don't know if this has already been suggested but I think an interesting alternative to both potions and health/mana globes is a regeneration mechanic based on fallen monster corpses (a la Paladin redemption aura in D2). In the end it would have the same effect as globes but without the silly (imo) globes themselves. To me it just seems more realistic (not to mention more firmly within diablo lore ect.)

Skills could be used to effect the range, amount and type of rejuvenation received such that a higher level wizard would likely prefer mana over health.

Additionally we could have some kind of very faint effect like that of the witch doctor's soul harvest but without the damage done to enemies where you would see wisps of light (or something) converging on your character.

This would even solve the 'too-many-corpses-on-the-ground-for-my-processor-to-handle' issue because the "redeemed" corpses could slowly disappear as the effect continues.

[SlechtWeerBeer]

Hi guys, this is my first post on this forum (I've been lurking for quite a while now and really enjoy many of your posts).

I don't know if this has already been suggested but I think an interesting alternative to both potions and health/mana globes is a regeneration mechanic based on fallen monster corpses (a la Paladin redemption aura in D2). In the end it would have the same effect as globes but without the silly (imo) globes themselves. To me it just seems more realistic (not to mention more firmly within diablo lore ect.)

Skills could be used to effect the range, amount and type of rejuvenation received such that a higher level wizard would likely prefer mana over health.

Additionally we could have some kind of very faint effect like that of the witch doctor's soul harvest but without the damage done to enemies where you would see wisps of light (or something) converging on your character.

This would even solve the 'too-many-corpses-on-the-ground-for-my-processor-to-handle' issue because the "redeemed" corpses could slowly disappear as the effect continues.

So you gradually drain the deceased monster's life force which you already brutally beat out of it's vessel? Sounds weird, tbh. Interesting, but weird.
As for that last comment; Bodies already automatically disappear, I bet. DII did that, too, and I think it was in the Gameplay vid too.

[Foodspice]

The disappearing corpse issue I was referring to was a discussion on the b.net forums that Bashiok responded to about people wanting monster corpses to remain on the ground indefinitely. I was just explaining how the redemption mechanic would tie in with the disappearing corpses (like the reason the corpses disappear instead of disappearing for no gameplay reason).

I know the redemption idea isn't perfect, but I think picking up health and mana globes is slightly ridiculous in the Diablo world (reminds me of pac man or something of that genre). Call me crazy but chugging potions and sucking the remaining life and energy out of a corpse seems to fit better in my opinion.

[paperkut]

Just curious, did they ever specify if health/mana pots were definitely out this time around? I thought I read somewhere that they just wouldn't be as plentiful or cheap or something.

I think the globes are going to work great also because we will no longer have to spend gold to get health pots all the time...assuming gold is worth something like they're trying to make it. Then we can save our money for other fun things...like scrolls of identify.

[SlechtWeerBeer]

Just curious, did they ever specify if health/mana pots were definitely out this time around? I thought I read somewhere that they just wouldn't be as plentiful or cheap or something.

I think the globes are going to work great also because we will no longer have to spend gold to get health pots all the time...assuming gold is worth something like they're trying to make it. Then we can save our money for other fun things...like scrolls of identify.

Pots are still in the game. To what extent is not known to the public for the time being, though. It's possible they'll put them on a recharge, make the droprate low or something similar.

Pots were so cheap killing one monster would refund a full belt.

[Romak]

Casters don't benefit from Leech.
That is all.

Are you talking about Diablo 2 or Diablo 3? Just because in Diablo 2 there was no function that allowed life and mana stealing through spells, doesn't mean it has to be the same in Diablo 3. Think before you post.

@Risingred, yes, it balance out. But that doesn't change the fact that the wizard have to run into a mob and out of a mob every once in a while and the barbarian doesn't. Though the difference might be minor, it's there.

Now about the globes drop rate... yeah I hope it's not too high. Not only they're ugly, but they also cover the screen with a high drop rate. I still think auto leeching is a cool idea >.< Think of it this way: On average, every 3 monsters drop 1 globe that heals for 100 health. Instead of that, (lets say that every monster dies in 1 hit), when you kill a monster you get 33 health. Or for the sake of randomization, have a 33% chance to steal 100 health from foe. That sounds reasonable, ins't it? I mean it doesn't really change the gameplay too much, and we got rid of ugly floating orbs that make no sense.

[Nimbostratus]

The problem with life/mana steal is that there's no strategy involved. You simply keep attacking and hope your leech is enough to keep you alive :/ That's the kind of "hold your attack button until stuff dies" thing they're trying to avoid.

[Romak]

The problem with life/mana steal is that there's no strategy involved. You simply keep attacking and hope your leech is enough to keep you alive :/ That's the kind of "hold your attack button until stuff dies" thing they're trying to avoid.

The problem with life/mana globes is that there's no strategy involved. You keep killing and hope your globes are enough to keep you alive :/ That's the kind of "hold your attack button until stuff dies" things they're trying to avoid.

Hmmm... yep, both paragraphs make enough sense to me. No matter how you put this, both ways are extremely similiar.

[Nimbostratus]

Health globes are things you have to actually go grab. You don't just stand there and stay at 100%.

[raveharu]

In Diablo 3 we're having the new health and mana globes system that everybody know about. I generally like the idea of not having to arrange potions every once in a while. And the system in which "The more you slay, the healthier you get" is pretty much cutting the time period in Diablo 2, after you kill the monster -> Pick up the potion -> Drink it. Really, saves alot of time.

Potions are overused in D2, it's one of the things easily obtainable in the game.

A champion easily drops a bunch of potions, and you can even purchase them from NPCs. So basically you attack, press a pot, attack, press a pot, repeat. Boring :yawn:

Blizzard intentions was to remove this aspect from D3 completely, it has not been confirmed what changes will be made to the potions though, but you forget about abusing it like in D2.

The globe system is an interesting new concept implemented into a RPG. But so far I'm pretty optimistic about it.


But now when I think of it... isn't that exactly like mana and life stealing? If the more you slay the healthier you get, why not just have the life/mana automatically transferred to you according to the damage you deal? (in regenration form, of course, just like the globes). I think it was Jay who once said "...you're low on health - you kill some monsters..." or something like that to describe the globe system. So despite the fact that life/mana stealing is not likely coming back, the globe system is not too far from that.

Leeching and globes are two totally totally different systems.

For leeching all you had to do was to attack a monster and your life/mana automatically fills up, which IMO is no challenge.

However for globes you have to KILL the monster and CLICK on anywhere near the globe to activate it. Notice the difference?

It brings D3 to a whole new level of gameplay and technically increases the difficulty of the game.

well, okay there's also that thingie that when you pick up a health orb, it also heals nearby allies, but it's not like they can't do it with life stealing (simply heal allies near the damage dealer).

This idea totally sucks, no offense.


So, if they simply make it mana/life stealing, range characters won't be discriminated by having to go the extra distance to pick it up,

Range are range for a reason.

You do not charge into a bunch of enemies blindly, you shoot from afar, you think of tactics to avoid being hit while dishing out powerful AoEs or attacks (from a Wizard PoV, since it can be termed as a range).

Yes they might have a problem with getting globes compared to melee characters but did you not notice the defense skills the Wizard has compared to the Barbarian. Balancing is key, and Blizzard is definitely focusing on it.

and also there won't be ugly floating globes on the screen blocking your pretty view.

I don't find them ugly, neither do I think they block the view of the game, unless you're playing D3 as a FPS :rolleyes:
They look pretty awesome now that Blizzard has changed the animations, who knows they might implement more visual improvements.

So... do you get my point?

Whatever it is, you still have to accept the fact the globes will be in the game.

And we still do not know if leech will be in the game, although I think it most probably would but it would be a sort of rare ability found on items.

But IMO, the reason why you could not accept this system because it's NEW and not seen in D1 or D2 or any RPG.
My advice to many of you out there, it's time you learn to accept new things and live out of your little bubble.

If you don't like it, too bad, then don't play the game :D

[SlechtWeerBeer]

Are you talking about Diablo 2 or Diablo 3? Just because in Diablo 2 there was no function that allowed life and mana stealing through spells, doesn't mean it has to be the same in Diablo 3. Think before you post.

Don't worry about wether I think or not; I do.
Needing dual leech to keep your health and mana up while spamming spells takes up more mods on your equipment, meaning you are less effective than with the Globes system. A Barbarian doesn't need dual leech, because it uses a different resource for skills.
Imo, leeching through spells just doesn't make sense, no matter what way you put it.
On top of that, I doubt the D3 team will remove the globes.

[Mad Mantis]

Imo, leeching through spells just doesn't make sense, no matter what way you put it.

May I present to you the WD skill Soul Harvest. A Spell that has an AoE leech effect for his mana.

[Romak]

I have no doubt that the globes are here to stay... they are one of the first things that were shown to us, and they're not going away. But I still think they're ugly >.> And stop with the "then don't play the game" claim. It's retarded, don't use this sentence.

[SlechtWeerBeer]

May I present to you the WD skill Soul Harvest. A Spell that has an AoE leech effect for his mana.

Health(?)/Mana gain on kill, not on hit.

[Mad Mantis]

Health(?)/Mana gain on kill, not on hit.

You didn't specify that.

[Zek]

Err, have you guys all forgotten that when anybody picks up a globe, it heals the whole party? If anything it's a little unfair in favor of ranged characters, who don't take as much damage but get healed just as much as melee characters scooping up the orbs.

Anyway, I don't know why everybody is acting like orbs are the lifesteal replacement. That hasn't been confirmed yet. What we do know is that it's the potion spamming replacement, and it obviously involves far more strategy than potions did. Potions were an absolute safety net until you drained your whole belt - health orbs you have to wait until one drops, so you can't afford to just take damage willy nilly. That goes double for bosses where you'll probably have to go out of your way to find orbs.

[Romak]

@Zek, Globes are the replacement of both potions and leeching. Because those two were the only ways to get healed in Diablo 2, and now they're both gone. Get it? Leeching was a source for mana and life just as much as potions were, for physical characters that is. A barbarian in Diablo 2 can have a swing over a mob of creatures and get completely healed.

Leeching is gone though, and the reason for that is the globes which prove to be more "tactical". Though I still can't see what's so tactical about them. They drag too much attention and for no reason. They're big, glowing, and make a *blurp* noise when you touch them, they are more easy to spot than any monster on the map. Even the potions didn't pull as much attention as those things... so they could at least make them less intense.

About ranged characters taking less damage than melee... or the opposite... I really didn't understand that, please explain yourself.

[Farmrush]

Err, have you guys all forgotten that when anybody picks up a globe, it heals the whole party? If anything it's a little unfair in favor of ranged characters, who don't take as much damage but get healed just as much as melee characters scooping up the orbs.

Anyway, I don't know why everybody is acting like orbs are the lifesteal replacement. That hasn't been confirmed yet. What we do know is that it's the potion spamming replacement, and it obviously involves far more strategy than potions did. Potions were an absolute safety net until you drained your whole belt - health orbs you have to wait until one drops, so you can't afford to just take damage willy nilly. That goes double for bosses where you'll probably have to go out of your way to find orbs.

Last time I checked the amount healed was dependent upon your.. wisdom (?) stat. We also don't know the range of the healing.

[LittleOldLady]

Presumably, the melee characters spend a lot of time creating (and using) globes during battle, but as they have high life they can afford to stick around and wait for them to drop.

Ranged characters will spend plenty of time avoiding being hit, then collect them after the battle to replenish (much like downing a pot, then picking up a replacement).

Both of these require more strategy than leech/quaffing/endless regeneration (casters...) AND provide different playing experiences for the different builds (provided the "party heal" radius is quite small - i.e. two melee in same mob should get healed, but ranged characters probably won't).

Oh, and the soul harvest is nice because it's something you do to regain mana which causes less damage (presumably) than you could if you were spending that mana. Again, a different play style.

[Raging_Zealot]

@Zek, Globes are the replacement of both potions and leeching. Because those two were the only ways to get healed in Diablo 2, and now they're both gone. Get it? Leeching was a source for mana and life just as much as potions were, for physical characters that is. A barbarian in Diablo 2 can have a swing over a mob of creatures and get completely healed.

Actually he is right. Potions ARE still in the game, but at a reduced capacity, most likely much more rare, and it has been speculated that they will have a timer. Leach has not been mentioned to be in or out of the game, so it is really speculation at this point as to whether it will be present in simply a more rare capacity, or not at all.

Leeching is gone though, and the reason for that is the globes which prove to be more "tactical". Though I still can't see what's so tactical about them. They drag too much attention and for no reason. They're big, glowing, and make a *blurp* noise when you touch them, they are more easy to spot than any monster on the map. Even the potions didn't pull as much attention as those things... so they could at least make them less intense.

From the game play videos it looks like the skills are both more varied and mobile. Instead of a barbarian standing in place and swinging (yes I know D2 barb's could WW), he will be charging through, stomping, etc. more, and the idea is to have less "only 1 powerful skill is necessary" gameplay. To me, this makes it much more likely that where globes fall, and where you currently are, could be two different places. This means actually getting to the globes could present a challenge, depending on where the rest of the live monsters are. With leach, you really could just stand in place and zeal/frenzy/concentrate/fury/ect a group of monsters, and not have to worry over much about healing. The globe system is more tactical in that you actually have to go retrieve globes, probably while under monster fire, etc., as opposed to just standing still and having it happen.

Plus as was mentioned, globes aren't guaranteed from monsters the way leach is (any leach-able monster will give you health back), so you do have to conserve them, and plan tactically when you should use them.

Sorry for the huge block of text, but you still say you don't understand how it is more tactical. It is a more involved process to benefit from them, so you have to work into your battle plan, when to go after them, decide in your head if you can get to one before the monsters around it kill you, etc, where as leaching didn't require anything but holing the 1 skill down until everything was dead, which from basically everything we've seen about the game play in Diablo III, is something the Devs want to minimize, creating a game where each character class has 6-10 active skills useful in varying situations instead. Having to actively make a choice and react to how and when the globes drop requires more tactical thinking than standing in place and leeching from the monsters you are wailing on.

About ranged characters taking less damage than melee... or the opposite... I really didn't understand that, please explain yourself.

I think they mean that as a ranged character, they will be further from the action, mowing down enemies from afar. All characters play through the game by (ideally) dealing more damage to the monsters than the monsters deal back to them in return. A ranged character (physical or caster) minimizes the damage they take by being further back from the combat and avoiding the majority of the attacks (usually by having some sort of a tank, or by using kiting techniques), while a melee character would minimize the damage by having more defense/life etc, so that they can withstand more attacks.

[Risingred]

I mean it doesn't really change the gameplay too much, and we got rid of ugly floating orbs that make no sense.

I'd say it makes more sense than just becoming healthy after killing something.
Orbs=magic. Magic can explain anything because it is a fantastical function that isn't rooted in reality so it doesn't really have "rules" besides whatever context they reside in.
Killing something while exerting yourself to relieve fatigue = doesn't make sense. I don't mean this as an insult, just kind of putting it out there.

You claim that it is essentially the same in concept but it isn't. It's actually very different. Maybe the differences seem subtle or inconsequential but they aren't.

I may not approve of your idea but it was interesting and I thank you for sharing it here.