Respect? [Archive] - Diablo 3 & Diablo 2 Forums

Drakk

10-06-2009, 05:18

Demetrium

10-06-2009, 05:36

Pretty good post. I think I see what you're getting at.

I think the main problem here is that a lot of the people that drive guys like Bashiok up a wall post criticism without it being constructive, or even legitimate. Sure, I ***** and moan all the time about things like achievements, but I actually try to put some thought behind my argument and get my point across. As long as people list good reasons for scrutinizing something, and perhaps list alternatives, I honestly don't think they will mind too much. In the end, all the hard work and adjustments should result in a gem of a game that will bear it's fruits in terms of copies sold.

On the flip side, they absolutely have to stand firm when they have something good and people try to convince them to change it.

Blizzard is a great company, but I'll be honest with you, after playing WoW (oh my god I brought it up like 3x today), I am somewhat concerned at how they sometimes seem to bend to their players' demands. There were a lot of cases in WoW where the community with the loudest voice got the most attention, and poor decisions were made just because enough people complained. End result? When I left the game it honestly felt like they had created a monster and had no control over their own game. Every patch was a slew of class changes which would then cause prompt for even more changes in the next patch. Its like you're working on a knot and every time you pull a cable you just make the thing twice as bad as it was. Granted WoW has a lot more complexities to it than a game like D3, it still shows they have the potential to conform just to please.

Edeas_Knight

10-06-2009, 05:37

Drakk

10-06-2009, 06:11

I'm glad to see that you guys see the point of my post.. I posted the same thing on bnet and was immediately flamed for it lol no surprise there. Honestly, Blizzard is the most generous and gratious company I have ever seen and I really do respect them for it. They have some of the most needy and complaining fans but they still manage to treat them to info (when it is only helping their competitors to do so) and do what is best for them.

sbn

10-06-2009, 07:47

I feel the same way. Blizz doesn't have to give us a new patch for DII or even have to host bnet for free. Not many developers will even patch a game 4-5 years after its release date, but Blizz still does this even though DII is a 10 year old game. Be grateful that we are getting a new patch, even though it might take a bit longer than expected, I am sure it will be great.

Sorry to sound so rude, but don't you think it is a little naive to say Blizzard's actions are done out of the kindness of their hearts? They patch D2, simply because A. the game still has sales, and B. because what better time to draw attention to the Diablo franchise. Does anyone really think they would do this patch with no D3 on the horizon?

Let us not forget how they completely dropped the ball on announcing the patch could come as by the end of April, and here we are some 7 weeks later and not a single post to even acknowledge the obvious (well aside from that troll Bashioks snarky reply).

This being the same company that does not even seem to have a clue on how to host a forum, much less moderate it. I must say you do see less bile *#&@ posted these days, nevertheless their very own forum is that most useless usage of hard drive space (well not useless if one enjoys flame wars).

And think about the level of communication they give, which is about zero. It is not uncommon these days to see developers interact with their community either via forums or blog.

I also can not say that it is disrespectful to Blizzard when their users voices their opinions.

Cevilo

10-06-2009, 08:10

Sorry to sound so rude, but don't you think it is a little naive to say Blizzard's actions are done out of the kindness of their hearts? They patch D2, simply because A. the game still has sales, and B. because what better time to draw attention to the Diablo franchise. Does anyone really think they would do this patch with no D3 on the horizon?

well what ever the reason is they are putting the patch out :] idk if d3 has an effect on their decision, but we saw 1.10-1.12 before we knew D3 was even in the making. so it's not to far fetched.

Let us not forget how they completely dropped the ball on announcing the patch could come as by the end of April, and here we are some 7 weeks later and not a single post to even acknowledge the obvious (well aside from that troll Bashioks snarky reply).

I think you misread what Bashiok said so I'll put it out in bold

We don’t have a final release date for the patch yet, but we’re providing early warning as a reset could occur as early as the end of April.

I think he was trying to say there was a possibility the patch would be out by the end of April that (obviously) is not the case.

This being the same company that does not even seem to have a clue on how to host a forum, much less moderate it. I must say you do see less bile *#&@ posted these days, nevertheless their very own forum is that most useless usage of hard drive space (well not useless if one enjoys flame wars).

Their forum is where this website and every other gets their information for every one to talk about. and I've fully read 2 Threads that were 10+ pages long today and the Flaming on that over the stupidest crap.. its pretty much every where

And think about the level of communication they give, which is about zero. It is not uncommon these days to see developers interact with their community either via forums or blog.

because they are busy developing the game it's kind of discouraging when people are being jerks about what ever they release, saying they don't know how to do their job like they know any better or some thing.. Bashiok is keeps the communication between Blizzard and the people but why is he going to deliver the garbage of people saying crap about a game they never played before. It's pretty much a bunch of cry baby bull crap the looks won't matter to much it'll be what they do with the new game play that will make the game. the fact that there is a random rainbow in the back round wont mean crap.

I also can not say that it is disrespectful to Blizzard when their users voices their opinions.

strait from Bash to people who want to share their voices

In closing, I'm more than willing to provide reasoning and discuss observations, just don't be a jerk about it.

5zigen

10-06-2009, 08:50

Well, in all fairness blizzard can really expect this intense scrutiny with the pace of information release.

Let's say, for example, they were to release all at once the last 2 classes, all the skills, the drop system, the rune system, and the gear equipment and character customizations. Under this scenario, people would probably not subject everything to such intense scrutiny because everyone in the community would be looking at something else, Some people would be looking at specific classes, some would be looking at skills, some would look at mechanics etc. Sure some issues would be scrutinized, but not to the extent that we see stuff like health globes at bosses, polycount of objects, and fallen hairstyles.

The thing is, when you only release 1 tidbit of information every month, every active community member is going to look over it, and with that many eyes it is like you are voluntarily subjecting it to such strict scrutiny. (I know, blizzard couldn't release a ton of information between now and release which is why they are releasing stuff so slowly.)

Aside from that, I am all for giving blizzard the benefit of the doubt, because I'm all for letting the developers make their game (too many cooks spoil the broth) I'm all for giving suggestions but ultimately most of the stuff is their decision.

Aside from that, I think there is room for criticism, particularly on the d2 patch front. When they announced what they announced they killed the season. D2 is SO dead right now, and really it's because of how and when they made the announcement. Plus, they've been silent about it for a long time, and really bashiok has been pretty completely off the D2 forums.

Yeah, they don't need to do anything with D2, but ultimately it's in their best interest and it really preserves their image, particularly when D3 is coming out, people will think back and associate how well they supported it (true or not, but with a recent patch it will be fresh in everyone's mind.)

Drakk

10-06-2009, 12:50

I do agree that Blizz dropped the ball on announcing the patch could be released soon when it was obviously far from being done. It's hard to progress your characters when you know that sooner than later you will need to start over to play ladder. That said, I still admire them for trying to provide us with an enjoyable, hopefully bot-free, Diablo 2 until D3's release.

This being the same company that does not even seem to have a clue on how to host a forum, much less moderate it.

I think the battle.net forums are absolutely rediculous. They are a complete waste of time to try and have an intelligent conversation on (they seem to bring the worst out in people), but sbn how do you moderate such a circus??

Those people are negatively representing the fanbase. I posted this thread there to try and have a discussion about how the forums have been acting and I got flamed worse than meph by a magicfinding meteorb sorc. Sad to say, I got sucked into the mess and ended up more frustrated than when I started. I think ill just wait to get the Bashiok updates from this site from now on :thumbup:

Vitamins

10-06-2009, 12:54

The lengths Blizzard has gone to to ensure they produce a Diablo 3 that is fun to play while staying true to the franchise have included many reworks of the game. The fact that Blizzard completely scrapped the game and started from scratch in 2003 because it just "wasn't fun" enough, I think we, as fans, can show a little more gratitude towards our favorite game developers.

As I am sure everyone here is aware, shortly after the announcement of Diablo 3 there was a petition to change the art style. This was the first of many gripes Diablo "fans" have had. Rob Pardo, Executive Vice President of Blizzard and executive producer of Diablo 3, has stated that "We've probably gone through atleast three different pretty major art direction shifts" in order to achieve the "gothic, dark feel" while adding color into the game. This dedication to the game and its fans deserves more respect from us, the fans, than it has received.

Now, every time Blizzard tries to release a tidbit of information about the game to reassure or inform the fanbase it is met by intense scrutiny. Then they decide to avoid a whole gripe about an insubstantial part of the game and theres multiple threads complaining of a lack of info released.

Blizzard still, somehow, has the patience to deal with the fanbase and actually takes some of our opinions into concideration because it could make the game better (ie. the length corpses are displayed for). They decide to release a new patch for D2 (for FREE) and actually ask the fans what we want most in the patch (first time I've heard any company doing that) and all I see now are posts on Battle.net complaining that the patch isn't out yet.

After all that this company has done for its fans, I think we could show Blizzard a little more respect.

Edit by Leord:
Art controversy (http://www.diablowiki.net/Art_controversy)

I will show Blizzard gratitude the same way everybody else will when Diablo 3 is released: with money. Blizzard Entertainment is a video game company and we are its consumers, so they would do well to heed our criticism of Diablo 3 and the rest of their products; otherwise, they will quickly go out of business. I respect Blizzard as a company that makes good video games, but that is as far as my respect goes. I will not blindly buy their products, or agree with their decisions simply because I've bought some of their products in the past, or because they've made some good products in the past. I also do not agree that Blizzard is some benevolent company that is out to simply entertain people. After all, if that were the case, then their video games would be free. If anything, Blizzard should be showing those who express their opinions more respect, instead of having their PR agents (Bashiok) meet them with condescension.

Drakk

10-06-2009, 13:32

they would do well to heed our criticism of Diablo 3 and the rest of their products; otherwise, they will quickly go out of business.

I think they have done an extraordinary job of taking the criticism, my point is that its absolutely out of control. I know it happened a while ago but seriously, a petition to change the entire art direction of the game because people actually felt offended by it?? It is this kind of outlandish sense of self entitlement that I am offended by.

I will not blindly buy their products, or agree with their decisions simply because I've bought some of their products in the past, or because they've made some good products in the past.
I won't blindly buy their products either, but I do use their past games as a great indicator of what type of a game they will release. Their attention to detail is astounding; they implement an idea and if it doesn't work it gets scrapped. Simple as that. They know what works and what doesn't because they are the ones building it and testing it.

I also do not agree that Blizzard is some benevolent company that is out to simply entertain people. After all, if that were the case, then their video games would be free.
I don't believe I stated that or even made that inclination. Obviously Blizzard is a company conducting business to make money (thats what business is). If this wasn't so, they wouldn't be a company.. Nobody works for free.

If anything, Blizzard should be showing those who express their opinions with more respect, instead of having their PR agents (Bashiok) meet them with condescension.
More respect? My, oh my, we have differing opinions! I won't quote myself but I think I did a fairly good job at showing multiple examples of how Blizzard has tolerated the continuous landslide of insults and outlandish demands made by its "fans." I don't blame Bashiok in the slightest for having a short fuse with battle.net posters as of late, I actually commend him for it. I definately would not have the composure he has when dealing with the onslaught of attacks from know-it-all wannabe game designers.

Vitamins

10-06-2009, 13:36

Drakk, I have no idea why you responded to my post. You didn't add anything at all. It's as though you responded to it solely for the sake of responding. What say you?

DWS

10-06-2009, 15:11

This kind of smells like a fanboi post and i can see why we have fanboi's - because blizz makes some awesome games.

But really, you're asking us to be gracious for all they have done for us? What exactly have they done out of the goodness of their own hearts that doesn't somehow fall back on their making money as a business? Just name one thing...for example like making a game and giving it all away for free would be a good example but I don't see where that has happened.

When talking about community feedback and negativity - welcome to the internet. Not sure what experiences you have with...well...any other game but dude this is reality.

Airazor

10-06-2009, 15:22

I guess if blizzard says they are trying to make the game fun, and make changes based on that no one else can really criticize them, because after all they're the only ones playing it. Though since a lot of things have changed at blizzard since D2, I'm not going to keep saying the company is awesome and buy all there games just because they "used" to be good.

You can only hope they are doing the right thing with the game, nothing else.

sbn

10-06-2009, 19:25

well what ever the reason is they are putting the patch out :] idk if d3 has an effect on their decision, but we saw 1.10-1.12 before we knew D3 was even in the making. so it's not to far fetched.

I think you misread what Bashiok said so I'll put it out in bold

I think he was trying to say there was a possibility the patch would be out by the end of April that (obviously) is not the case.

Their forum is where this website and every other gets their information for every one to talk about. and I've fully read 2 Threads that were 10+ pages long today and the Flaming on that over the stupidest crap.. its pretty much every where

because they are busy developing the game it's kind of discouraging when people are being jerks about what ever they release, saying they don't know how to do their job like they know any better or some thing.. Bashiok is keeps the communication between Blizzard and the people but why is he going to deliver the garbage of people saying crap about a game they never played before. It's pretty much a bunch of cry baby bull crap the looks won't matter to much it'll be what they do with the new game play that will make the game. the fact that there is a random rainbow in the back round wont mean crap.

strait from Bash to people who want to share their voices

To point to just how bad Battle.net's forums are, we could never have this discussion, this point-counter point we are having now. But then again this forum here has moderators that actually do their job; they moderate. We don't insult, flame, call names, and a lot of that is due to the 'culture' here where the moderators do play a part in creating the respectful discourse. Bnet's forums, I have no clue to why they have so called moderators, seeing that nobody ever moderates. I remember way too often seeing rants that were the most bile and offensive, that would continue on and on without anyone bothering to remove it. There was one regarding a topic I shall not repeat here, but it was certainly one of the most offensive and disgusting in nature I had ever seen on a public forum. Did Blizzard close it? Of course not, it was kept alive for weeks on end. That makes me lose respect, for this is their official forums to which they are responsible for.

But I will say this. Head over to some communities like Infinity Ward's, Tripwire Interactive, Simtek, and AA Special Forces. All these companies are on a level of communication and respect for their communities that in unrivaled by Blizzard. It really is night and day when you compare Blizzard to say Tripwire, where were fully informed of everything we wanted to know straight from the devs themselves. We can ask a question in the forums as to why this or that was not included, and get a honest answer as to why. You know what, treat people with respect and they will respond in kind.

I do understand the statement that the patch could be out as early as April, but to be now 7+ weeks later without at least one comment on the obvious is bad PR, and simply lacks respect. Personally I think someone just shot their mouth off without having a clue to what stage of development the patch is in. Irregardless, it really was a drop off the ball on Blizzard's part, something they have a long history of doing. For me the point is not that the patch has been released or not, but rather how this has played out.

And again I would reiterate that during the life of Diablo2, the game sales have been quite good, enough to keep minimal support. Also keep in mind that players on Bnet provide Blizzard with ad revenue. Bnet is a profitable income source, one of the first profitable online gaming services. So again it is not out of the kindness of their hearts they keep D2 playable on Bnet, and provide minimal support every once and a while. And yes I would argue that without D3, suppose patch 1.13 would probably either not exist or be of any high expectation.

There are also many other aspects of the company that have inflamed us over the years that could be listed, but don't need to be now. Point is ultimately we vote with our wallets. My vote to Blizzard has been that LOD was the LAST game I purchased of Blizzard's, but certainly NOT the last game I have ever purchased. As much as I have hopes for D3, it is by no means guaranteed that I will purchase.

Starving_Poet

10-06-2009, 20:25

Sometimes we criticize Blizzard so much because we respect the work they do and don't want them to make a stupid mistake that could destroy the series.

Funkopotamus

10-06-2009, 21:09

My main question is what does Blizzard's actions have to do with how much gratitude I give to my favorite game developer?

Drakk

10-06-2009, 23:52

Drakk, I have no idea why you responded to my post. You didn't add anything at all. It's as though you responded to it solely for the sake of responding. What say you?
Vitamins, I responded to your post for the same reason you responded to my post. You disagreed with what I said and I disagreed with what you said. I chose to show you where and why I believe your wrong and I feel I did a good job of that. If you have any complaints with what I said I gladly await a rebuttal.

What exactly have they done out of the goodness of their own hearts that doesn't somehow fall back on their making money as a business? Just name one thing...for example like making a game and giving it all away for free would be a good example but I don't see where that has happened.

Patch 1.13. 8 years after LOD's release, after the announcement of D3, and we get another patch. Yes, I do realize we have gotten 12 patches prior to this one all for free, but that was before we knew about Diablo 3. There isn't much point in spending time and money to create a patch for a game that will be obsolete in a year or two; other than to keep D2 players happy.
This in no way provides Blizzard with any additional money.

Not enough to entice new customers. It may entice former players to come back for one last ladder season, but they already own D2:LOD.

Same amount of dollars coming in from advertisement space

Anyone still playing D2 will most likely be buying D3 whether there's a new patch or not. ie. no additional D3 purchases from patch release.

This patch could be taking so long because they are making sure, once and for all, bots and dupes are gone from the game. This would mean no more incomes generated from cheating and JSP. This could be done to benefit both Blizzard and the community, but I gladly say it is those of us that choose not to cheat that would receive the biggest gift.
So really, Blizzard is shelling out cash for no reason other than to give us, the community, a gift. This is one of the reasons I say thanks! Not start complaining cause its not out yet.:thumbup:

Vitamins

11-06-2009, 00:52

Drakk, your so-called rebuttal was nothing of the sort. For example, I wrote, “[T]hey would do well to heed our criticism of Diablo 3 and the rest of their products; otherwise, they will quickly go out of business.” You replied to that with, “I think they have done an extraordinary job of taking the criticism,” but this reply misconstrued what I actually wrote. In this specific excerpt, I didn’t say Blizzard couldn’t take criticism. I wrote Blizzard should consider our criticism, or they will inevitably go out of business. Your “rebuttal” continues on with, “my point is that its absolutely out of control.” According to you it may be out of control. And you’re going to have to do better than using the art controversy surrounding Diablo 3 as evidence for this claim. Many people were and are still upset over the new art direction for Diablo because they think it doesn’t coincide nicely with the other two Diablo games. As paying customers, they are entitled to voice that opinion. Get over it. Nothing here is out of control save for your imagination and fanboyism.

Ravich

11-06-2009, 01:14

More respect? My, oh my, we have differing opinions! I won't quote myself but I think I did a fairly good job at showing multiple examples of how Blizzard has tolerated the continuous landslide of insults and outlandish demands made by its "fans."
Blizzard is making the money. The fans are paying. Why do you somehow feel that the fans are in debt to Blizzard for the fact that they exist?

I don't blame Bashiok in the slightest for having a short fuse with battle.net posters as of late, I actually commend him for it. I definately would not have the composure he has when dealing with the onslaught of attacks from know-it-all wannabe game designers.
Well, he is being paid for doing what he does. Maybe you should hold him accountable for some degree of professionalism?

Personally, I dont think that Blizzard has operated in any way that makes them deserving of respect from fans. Have you been a part of WoW over the last several years? The shear amount of lying and lack of responsibility for mistakes is nothing short of mind blowing. Blizzard rarely did anything other than release half-true information and then use CMs to absorb all the hate. Basically setting everything up so that people are encouraged to abuse the CMs for bearing the bad news that "sorry guys, Blizzard ****ed up again."

There was this one incident fairly early on in WoW, where there had been a bug with Aspect of the Hawk for quite a while. This bug remained well known, but unfixed for several months UNTIL people realized that the bug could be used as an advantage.

Needless to say, Blizzard immediately fixed the bug within a few days of this discovery. It wasnt part of a patch, and it wasnt announced, people just noticed that the bug was fixed.

But... it also had a bad effect for hunters. Blessing of might no longer added anything to ranged attack power. There was, of course, an uproar, because this came across as an additional bug that entered the picture along with the "fix." Blizzard, hurrying to patch up their mistake, claimed that blessing of might was never intended to raise ranged attack power, and the fact that it did was a result of the Aspect of the Hawk bug.

...until people started pointing out that the description of blessing of might on Blizzards very own website specified that it "increases melee and ranged attack power."

Blizzard did nothing but delete these threads and did not acknowledge them.

Additionally, rogues and warriors started posting screen shots in which blessing of might was shown to have raised their ranged attack power in addition to melee attack power.

Blizzard did nothing but delete these threads and did not acknowledge them.

This is one small example of the way that blizzard treats fans regularly.

Respect? No, no that is not conduct that calls for respect, sorry.

Fox VII

11-06-2009, 01:47

I like all blizzard products prior to Wow (due to it's monthly fees). Anyways, I'm happy to purchase thier non-monthly fee games and am confident that they will produce a great DIII game.

To create the best game possible they should collect feedback on what kind of game people want. I believe that newest DII patch was not only to stir up the fanbase, but also to collect this information for DIII under the radar.

If they came right now and said, "how can we change DII to make DIII better", then people would have expected a lot of there opinions to be implemented and could therefore feel rejected when their often stupid ideas are not used. Since the suggestions have been collected for a DII patch, Blizzard can harvest all of those ideas for DIII while avoiding the negative sale reducing reaction of rejecting a group of people's ideas.

Anyways, I am not happy with thier HR forum moderators style and the slow flow of information regarding the games progress, but when the end result is what matters, who really should care? :crazyeyes: I can't wait to play DIII!!!

EDIT: forgot to mention

The biggest thing that makes me "disrespect" Blizzard is their method of balancing, which often whips out the usefulness of a character that one has probably put a lot of time into leveling up. In all fairness the cookie cutter builds need to be balanced, but the nerf bat seems to hit them a little to hard. Hopefully, with the new respec system that will be introduced in DIII, we will not have to worry about this.

zaxxon

11-06-2009, 02:16

Vitamins, I responded to your post for the same reason you responded to my post. You disagreed with what I said and I disagreed with what you said. I chose to show you where and why I believe your wrong and I feel I did a good job of that. If you have any complaints with what I said I gladly await a rebuttal.

Patch 1.13. 8 years after LOD's release, after the announcement of D3, and we get another patch. Yes, I do realize we have gotten 12 patches prior to this one all for free, but that was before we knew about Diablo 3. There isn't much point in spending time and money to create a patch for a game that will be obsolete in a year or two; other than to keep D2 players happy.
This in no way provides Blizzard with any additional money.

Not enough to entice new customers. It may entice former players to come back for one last ladder season, but they already own D2:LOD.

Same amount of dollars coming in from advertisement space

Anyone still playing D2 will most likely be buying D3 whether there's a new patch or not. ie. no additional D3 purchases from patch release.

This patch could be taking so long because they are making sure, once and for all, bots and dupes are gone from the game. This would mean no more incomes generated from cheating and JSP. This could be done to benefit both Blizzard and the community, but I gladly say it is those of us that choose not to cheat that would receive the biggest gift.
So really, Blizzard is shelling out cash for no reason other than to give us, the community, a gift. This is one of the reasons I say thanks! Not start complaining cause its not out yet.:thumbup:

You're not really so naive as to believe Blizzard is releasing this patch out of purely benevolent purposes, are you?

With D3 around the corner, it clearly serves Blizzard's business interests to revitalize interest in the franchise. What better way to do so than to release a new patch for D2? New items, new horadric recipes, maybe even a new area. All of these additions get people playing again and whet the appetite for D3.

That being said, the new patch could backfire on them. Once everything gets duped to high hell, the bots run free while the legit players get temp bans, and the crappy lag of bnet is realized, perhaps people will remember the fact that Blizzard just can't seem to keep their free games running properly.

Blizzard may have released hit games, and in general make pretty fun and decent games, but the fact is that they have never earned my respect. I could make quite the laundry list of Blizzard screwups and arrogance. Remember, respect is earned, not given.

Krugar

11-06-2009, 02:26

I do agree that the word "respect" is subject to debate. I do not feel I owe a company like Blizzard "respect" for delivering a product I should only obtain by paying for it. In the same context I should respect Nestle, Disney, Marlboro, or REFER (who around here charge me everyday I cross their bridge).

My "respect", if that is the word, is given the moment I use my hard earned money to buy one of their products. I'm not forced to feel anything else. And certainly I shouldn't be forced to thank them for anything. On the contrary, I expect them to thank me for having bought their product, and having trusted my money on them.

That said, I do admire Blizzard for their work over the years. I do share a professional respect for their ability to produce advanced high quality technological products. And Blizzard is very rarely an object of criticism from me.

Of Diablo 3, two issues are currently subject of my criticism. The possible absence of LAN play and the health globes. The first I'm discussing elsewhere on this forum, the second because I still cannot understand exactly how it will work and I have strong suspicions this will be the chief method for monster balancing in Diablo 3, which -- if that becomes the case -- I find extremelly lame.

But the point here is that, respect is not an obligation. Consumers have all the right, if they so wish to be aggressive, anal retentive even. It's not my style. But While I do find these people very annoying, I cannot remove them of their right.

DWS

11-06-2009, 02:51

Vitamins, I responded to your post for the same reason you responded to my post. You disagreed with what I said and I disagreed with what you said. I chose to show you where and why I believe your wrong and I feel I did a good job of that. If you have any complaints with what I said I gladly await a rebuttal.

Patch 1.13. 8 years after LOD's release, after the announcement of D3, and we get another patch. Yes, I do realize we have gotten 12 patches prior to this one all for free, but that was before we knew about Diablo 3. There isn't much point in spending time and money to create a patch for a game that will be obsolete in a year or two; other than to keep D2 players happy.
This in no way provides Blizzard with any additional money.

Not enough to entice new customers. It may entice former players to come back for one last ladder season, but they already own D2:LOD.

Same amount of dollars coming in from advertisement space

Anyone still playing D2 will most likely be buying D3 whether there's a new patch or not. ie. no additional D3 purchases from patch release.

This patch could be taking so long because they are making sure, once and for all, bots and dupes are gone from the game. This would mean no more incomes generated from cheating and JSP. This could be done to benefit both Blizzard and the community, but I gladly say it is those of us that choose not to cheat that would receive the biggest gift.
So really, Blizzard is shelling out cash for no reason other than to give us, the community, a gift. This is one of the reasons I say thanks! Not start complaining cause its not out yet.:thumbup:

I find it amusing that you essentially admit to thinking Blizz does things just for the greater good of mankind....

1) It indirectly provides Blizz with additional revenue by:
a) Keeping people interested in the series and thus buying D3 when it comes out
b) shows they have long term "care" and support for the game which indirectly reflects their stance on long term support for D3. It's a PR move straight up.

2) Sure the users already own D2 but they are all potential buyers for D3...I think perhaps you don't work in business.

3) Advertising space? WTF....

4) No additional purchases - I think this could be flat out wrong. They get some press, they get people BACK, they get more interested in the game and thus coming to see D3 stuff at the same time. Besides they just have 1 guy doing some D3 code in the basement that somewhere down the line may pay off for D3 revenue is a good bet.

Your premise, sorry to paraphrase, is that the newest patch is just a completely generous act is fun to think about but completely false. There are fringe benefits and very little cost. Just the fact they'd get more eyeballs on D3 stuff is worth the price.

Drakk

11-06-2009, 03:14

Nothing here is out of control save for your imagination and fanboyism.
First off, I would like to say that in no way am I obsessed with Blizzard or their games. I just appreciate the games that they have created and how they go about producing a game. Therefore, I am not a fanboy and would appreciate not being called as such.

Moving along,

I didn’t say Blizzard couldn’t take criticism. I wrote Blizzard should consider our criticism, or they will inevitably go out of business.
In my original post I gave an example of how they do consider the fanbase's criticism: the length of time corpses are displayed for. I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have come to this conclusion on their own. I replied to what I thought your point was and chose to not address the "or they will inevitably go out of business" statement because it is the most outlandish statement I've ever heard. WoW has already generated enough capital for them to produce any game they want, even if no one was to buy it. So your point is moot.

And you’re going to have to do better than using the art controversy surrounding Diablo 3 as evidence for this claim.
Finally, something we agree on. Yes, I should have provided some more examples of the endless topics that have been bickered about since D3's announcement.
Here we go: Health globes, the Fallen's new hair style, D3 is too "WoW-ish," automated stat allocation, inclusion of the magic find mod, the color of uniques not being gold anymore, no more runewords, whether D3 will be pay-to-play, Witch Doctor's supposed resemblance to the Necromancer, the appearance of the Witch Doctor, why the new Barbarian doesn't have war paint, no Paladin, the Wizard is too much like the Sorceress, name changes for both Wizard and Witch Doctor, not enough information about D3 released, and how the graphics aren't up to par.

I chose to use the art controversy because it is the most rediculous example, but I should have definately included some of these topics as well.

I find it amusing that you essentially admit to thinking Blizz does things just for the greater good of mankind....

What?? No, just no. Try actually reading my posts, obviously Blizzard is a business and everything they do is to further sell their products. That what businesses do, but what I am saying is they are doing this by trying to keep us fans happy.

1) It indirectly provides Blizz with additional revenue by:
a) Keeping people interested in the series and thus buying D3 when it comes out
b) shows they have long term "care" and support for the game which indirectly reflects their stance on long term support for D3. It's a PR move straight up.
2) Sure the users already own D2 but they are all potential buyers for D3...I think perhaps you don't work in business.
1)a) Seriously, anyone who ever enjoyed D2 will most likely be buying D3 regardless of a new patch
1)b) Agreeable
2) Look at 1)a)

3) Advertising space? WTF....
Have you seriously never noticed the banner add in the D2 chat room?! Guess it isn't working that well lol

4) No additional purchases - I think this could be flat out wrong. They get some press, they get people BACK, they get more interested in the game and thus coming to see D3 stuff at the same time. Besides they just have 1 guy doing some D3 code in the basement that somewhere down the line may pay off for D3 revenue is a good bet.
I find it hard to believe that someone would have missed the publicity D3 got with the art controversy and but somehow heard about the new patch. Pretty sure the only way you would find out about the patch is if you are already on battle.net forums or are following the production of a Blizzard game.

Your premise, sorry to paraphrase, is that the newest patch is just a completely generous act is fun to think about but completely false. There are fringe benefits and very little cost. Just the fact they'd get more eyeballs on D3 stuff is worth the price.
I don't believe its only a generous act. I have been emphasizing the fact that it is more about pleasing D2 players than it is to attract attention to D3. I believe I've shown why.

sbn

11-06-2009, 03:30

Your premise, sorry to paraphrase, is that the newest patch is just a completely generous act is fun to think about but completely false. There are fringe benefits and very little cost. Just the fact they'd get more eyeballs on D3 stuff is worth the price.

You are exactly correct in what you wrote, especially this last part. Isn't curious as to why Blizzard asked now after all these years what content people would like to see? Does anyone here NOT think that upon patch release they will make a big news release, possibly even with some D3 related news?

What the heck, Blizzard has already won the PR of sorts into getting so many to believe that they are just so gracious as to support this old game. Well, first off does anyone in their right mind think D2 will ever see another patch AFTER D3 is released? D2 is their only representative of the franchise at the moment, and it just so happens to also be a very profitable one as well.

This game's development costs were paid over in full years ago, so the percentage of a single sale that is pure profit to Blizzard is mighty high when compared to 2000. Yet they are still selling this game like mad are they not? A few weeks back at Microcenter I happened to notice the Diablo2 game sitting alongside a whole rack of games, 99% of which were no older than 2 years it seemed.

And lastly, do people just not notice the ads at the top of their screens when they log in? That is revenue. The more players they have online=the higher the revenue. Thus, doesn't it make sense to keep at least minimal support going to a game long since paid for?

So this is an absolute falsehood that Blizzard's actions are done out of generosity or kindness. No, this is a profit making machine. Kindness would be Blizzard showing more respect to their community, something of which I have already pointed out that in comparison with many other game companies, Blizzard is the absolute worst at.

Drakk

11-06-2009, 03:54

I said they were doing this to make the D2 fans happy. When fans are happy they continue to support your game, which in turn provides revenue.
I said it wouldn't provide any additional revenue (bolded in previous post as well) because it won't. The same money will be coming in as before, unless they sell banner add space by how many users are on per month? (not sure how this works but sounds far fetched, seems like it would be a set price per month to me)

Edit: Sorry guys, I just saw the bottom of that one post and I did say they were only doing this for no reason other than to give us a gift. That gift results in prolonged revenue for them so there are other reasons.

Krugar

11-06-2009, 04:08

Vitamins

11-06-2009, 05:04

In my original post I gave an example of how they do consider the fanbase's criticism: the length of time corpses are displayed for. I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have come to this conclusion on their own.

That is almost unbelievable! Blizzard considered a fan's point of view in regards to corpse deterioration? Whoa! This is big. I agree, I don't think Blizzard's team of developers could have thought of something so incredibly complicated!

I replied to what I thought your point was and chose to not address the "or they will inevitably go out of business" statement because it is the most outlandish statement I've ever heard.

You've got to be kidding. If Blizzard never considered their customer's feedback pertaining to their products, then of course they would go out of business. There's nothing outlandish about that statement at all.

Here we go: Health globes, the Fallen's new hair style, D3 is too "WoW-ish," automated stat allocation, inclusion of the magic find mod, the color of uniques not being gold anymore, no more runewords, whether D3 will be pay-to-play, Witch Doctor's supposed resemblance to the Necromancer, the appearance of the Witch Doctor, why the new Barbarian doesn't have war paint, no Paladin, the Wizard is too much like the Sorceress, name changes for both Wizard and Witch Doctor, not enough information about D3 released, and how the graphics aren't up to par.

Why does it matter if potential customers complain about those things? The only reason I can think of for why you care so much about this is that you're a Blizzard fanboy.

sbn

11-06-2009, 06:37

Well, if they did it for the money or not is on any case irrelevant. Why should I respect someone, or lose respect of someone, if they do things for money or not?

I guess this derailed. I tried to bring it back on track... but couldn't. bye.

Your point is valid, that is why there is other criteria to judge whether a company deserves respect or not. My issue is how they themselves show respect to their fanbase/community. In my opinion Blizzard is the worst of companies I am aware of.

Customer relations really can make or break a company. Speaking on a personal basis, I was able to win over a client based on one single issue; I could provide far better customer relations than my competitor who had history and infrastructre that far exceeded ours. Our business went on to be successful primarily because we won this client at the beginning. They dropped a company they had done business with for over a decade after just one month of working with us.

To say it boils down to just bringing a product to the market almost guarantees failure. Blizzard has been so far successful because they did offer a unique product, but not so much anymore. At the very least, while I am sure D3 will find good sales, their goal is to maximize all sale potential, to which they fail at consistently. They really do seem stuck in the mid 1990s compared to the level other companies are at these days.

Cevilo

11-06-2009, 08:10

To point to just how bad Battle.net's forums are, we could never have this discussion, this point-counter point we are having now. But then again this forum here has moderators that actually do their job; they moderate. We don't insult, flame, call names, and a lot of that is due to the 'culture' here where the moderators do play a part in creating the respectful discourse. Bnet's forums, I have no clue to why they have so called moderators, seeing that nobody ever moderates. I remember way too often seeing rants that were the most bile and offensive, that would continue on and on without anyone bothering to remove it. There was one regarding a topic I shall not repeat here, but it was certainly one of the most offensive and disgusting in nature I had ever seen on a public forum. Did Blizzard close it? Of course not, it was kept alive for weeks on end. That makes me lose respect, for this is their official forums to which they are responsible for.

But I will say this. Head over to some communities like Infinity Ward's, Tripwire Interactive, Simtek, and AA Special Forces. All these companies are on a level of communication and respect for their communities that in unrivaled by Blizzard. It really is night and day when you compare Blizzard to say Tripwire, where were fully informed of everything we wanted to know straight from the devs themselves. We can ask a question in the forums as to why this or that was not included, and get a honest answer as to why. You know what, treat people with respect and they will respond in kind.

I do understand the statement that the patch could be out as early as April, but to be now 7+ weeks later without at least one comment on the obvious is bad PR, and simply lacks respect. Personally I think someone just shot their mouth off without having a clue to what stage of development the patch is in. Irregardless, it really was a drop off the ball on Blizzard's part, something they have a long history of doing. For me the point is not that the patch has been released or not, but rather how this has played out.

And again I would reiterate that during the life of Diablo2, the game sales have been quite good, enough to keep minimal support. Also keep in mind that players on Bnet provide Blizzard with ad revenue. Bnet is a profitable income source, one of the first profitable online gaming services. So again it is not out of the kindness of their hearts they keep D2 playable on Bnet, and provide minimal support every once and a while. And yes I would argue that without D3, suppose patch 1.13 would probably either not exist or be of any high expectation.

There are also many other aspects of the company that have inflamed us over the years that could be listed, but don't need to be now. Point is ultimately we vote with our wallets. My vote to Blizzard has been that LOD was the LAST game I purchased of Blizzard's, but certainly NOT the last game I have ever purchased. As much as I have hopes for D3, it is by no means guaranteed that I will purchase.

to lazy to break the post down in to pieces and reply so I'll just reply as I read.

Blizzard is pretty open with letting people voice there opnions, letting them who petition to change the graphic art stay open is a good example, they could have been like Valve and started deleting topic and banning people for voicing their opinions. sure, they could be like Planetdiablo use to be, and any time some thing happens topics are locked and people are banned, how ever they allow people to voice their opinions, and argue among them selves what the opinion is. I will make one note I saw a topic that started to be come real Sexist, and it was closed for discriminating against females. I'm not sure what other topics you're talking about. sure they could be more hard core on their rules but then people would just complain about that as well.

as for the whole 1.13 patch I say its interesting you posted that today, better late than never, on the main page of this site it says why

Not really. Work on the patch was put on hold for a while due to higher priority issues, but it commences, and it is nearing.

Of corse they arn't doing this out of the kindness of their hearts but the point is they are doing it. people have made their decision to buy d3 all ready and will probably change as they release content. 1.13 isn't doing any thing but giving d2 players some thing a little fresh and maybe making some of the old vets return to up the b.net population.

all in all I agree with the past part, the vote is with our wallets, personally. I would rather Blizzard of the North doing this game, but I'll take what I can get. over all the reason I like the D2 game so much is because of
1. fast paced gaming style
2. free online play/support with out Dealing with a persistent world with 100000 people in it (i prefer joining games and having a party then doing PUGs on MMos)

sbn

11-06-2009, 09:19

to lazy to break the post down in to pieces and reply so I'll just reply as I read.

Blizzard is pretty open with letting people voice there opnions, letting them who petition to change the graphic art stay open is a good example, they could have been like Valve and started deleting topic and banning people for voicing their opinions. sure, they could be like Planetdiablo use to be, and any time some thing happens topics are locked and people are banned, how ever they allow people to voice their opinions, and argue among them selves what the opinion is. I will make one note I saw a topic that started to be come real Sexist, and it was closed for discriminating against females. I'm not sure what other topics you're talking about. sure they could be more hard core on their rules but then people would just complain about that as well.

as for the whole 1.13 patch I say its interesting you posted that today, better late than never, on the main page of this site it says why

Of corse they arn't doing this out of the kindness of their hearts but the point is they are doing it. people have made their decision to buy d3 all ready and will probably change as they release content. 1.13 isn't doing any thing but giving d2 players some thing a little fresh and maybe making some of the old vets return to up the b.net population.

all in all I agree with the past part, the vote is with our wallets, personally. I would rather Blizzard of the North doing this game, but I'll take what I can get. over all the reason I like the D2 game so much is because of
1. fast paced gaming style
2. free online play/support with out Dealing with a persistent world with 100000 people in it (i prefer joining games and having a party then doing PUGs on MMos)

Blizzard never locks any posts, even when it deals with the most offensive of posts! Take for example 2 years ago there was some loser who made a post regarding essentially rape. Did they close this? No, instead it remained alive for weeks with fools posting. Have they ever locked one single post that is nothing more than some racist nutjobs rant? Nope. So to say that Blizzard is something special because they have not locked posts of people complaining about D3 means nothing. This is the official forum for their company after all, to have allowed such vile and disgusting topics to exist time and time again is just pathetic. Essentially the "moderators" at Battle.net forums are not moderators in any sense of the word, but rather useless morons. Sorry, absolutely 0 respect should be given to them on this topic.

And as for the patch. Was it really that difficult to finally post some 7 weeks later that there was a delay? Sure you can make the argument that people could/would still complain about something had he posted weeks ago that there was a delay, but at least for many of us it would have shown respect towards us. Instead in the meantime all anyone got was some snarky little wise *** reply from him. As much as I might personally agree, as I think the whole topic of a D2 "economy" is rather ridiculous, point is I am not an official Blizzard rep, he is. It is HIS job to maintain good customer relations, to which he fails repeatedly.

So why in the hell does anyone want to give respect to a company that gives no respect to their customers? Just makes no sense. When Blizzard changes their attitude, then maybe I can consider it. For me, I respect a company like Tripwire who have always shown the absolute respect back towards their community.

Drakk

11-06-2009, 09:30

sbn, I agree with you that customer service is a very important part of conducting good business, and you have provided a very good example of such. I am, however, confused at this part of your post...
their goal is to maximize all sale potential, to which they fail at consistently.
Blizzard has some of the best selling game titles ever made. WoW has what 10 million active members? I find that to be astonishing; isn't it a record? Seems like they have maximized their sale potential to me.

And to Vitamins. A couple posts ago you were condemning me for my lack of a rebuttal, when it is in fact you who does not provide any examples or proof to explain your point. You just keep repeating the same statement. (I have provided a reason and examples for every thing you have said that I disagreed with.) Then you resort back to personal attacks. You are new to this forum and sorry to tell you, this isn't battle.net and that is not how we conduct ourselves here. I suggest you lose the condescending attitude and get some facts to back up your statements. I won't be replying to any more of your posts until you do so.

To everyone else that has responded to this thread, thank you for your opinions and I'm glad we can have a civilized conversation about the topic at hand.

Vitamins

11-06-2009, 11:30

And to Vitamins. A couple posts ago you were condemning me for my lack of a rebuttal, when it is in fact you who does not provide any examples or proof to explain your point.

My points do not require further clarification because they are either based in sentiment or are based in common sense. I also didn't write anything controversial. This is why I wondered why you even responded to me in the first place. Consequently, your original “rebuttal” to my post had nothing to do with what I actually wrote. That’s why I believe you are responding to my posts merely for the sake of responding to my posts, even though your responses are completely irrelevant to my posts. Let’s take a quick look at what I originally wrote:

I will show Blizzard gratitude the same way everybody else will when Diablo 3 is released: with money.
Sounds good to me.
Blizzard Entertainment is a video game company and we are its consumers, so they would do well to heed our criticism of Diablo 3 and the rest of their products; otherwise, they will quickly go out of business.
Yup.
I respect Blizzard as a company that makes good video games, but that is as far as my respect goes.
Mmmmk.
I will not blindly buy their products, or agree with their decisions simply because I've bought some of their products in the past, or because they've made some good products in the past.
Alright.
I also do not agree that Blizzard is some benevolent company that is out to simply entertain people.
OK.
After all, if that were the case, then their video games would be free. If anything, Blizzard should be showing those who express their opinions more respect, instead of having their PR agents (Bashiok) meet them with condescension.
Super.

I do not think anything in this post can be reasonably questioned because it's just sentiment, except for perhaps the last part and also the part where I wrote that companies need to listen to their customers (common sense). The fact that you took it upon yourself to respond to every sentence of that post tells me that you’re either trying to start an argument from nothing, or you’re a Blizzard fanboy. I also do not appreciate you playing moderator with me. Regardless, this thread is a waste of every one's time.

DWS

11-06-2009, 14:47

Well, if they did it for the money or not is on any case irrelevant. Why should I respect someone, or lose respect of someone, if they do things for money or not?

I guess this derailed. I tried to bring it back on track... but couldn't. bye.

The premise was that BECAUSE they are doing something that is essentially for the good of the community they deserve respect. It's not derailed when some question the basic premise of the argument.

But really, what does Blizzard want with our respect? It doesn't pay bills. Just the fact that people complain and bicker shows they have a passion for the game.

Starving_Poet

11-06-2009, 18:27

For all we know, this patch is really just a test bed for some hack detection algorithms. What better way to test your logic than on a well-established, non-crucial product.

stillman

11-06-2009, 20:45

I think the battle.net forums are absolutely rediculous. They are a complete waste of time to try and have an intelligent conversation on (they seem to bring the worst out in people), but sbn how do you moderate such a circus?? :thumbup:

By getting volunteers to do it for free. Make sure they are bondable and have reputations in their field. I'm sure there are countless qualified fans who would love to mod their site. If one of them goes wild and abuses his power, well, Blizzard can step in and take that one off the team, but really he would only be degrading a piece of garbage anyway, so it's worth a shot.

Jimbob

11-06-2009, 21:38

I like cheese.

PReP

11-06-2009, 21:59

Creds to the thread-starter, i agree mostly.

I also get irritated on how many "fans" behave, and that they don't seem to get how nice blizzard is, as opposed to many other game companies.
And no, i don't mean to overpraise but think it trough.

Of course they try to make money for their games, as anyone would if that was what they did for a living - even if they dislike their job, or are lucky (and educated enough) to have a great job, working with games.

But making money doesn't make having fun or being a good person impossible - people are not that single minded (most of us anyways).

The simple fact is that blizzard are the most dialogue-like, large, company i know of. Just the fact that they have "blizzard poster" in the form of bashiok, that actually speaks to the normal user (rabid fan) is very unique.
And also, what others have said, the very big effort they put on patches is also a very, _very_ nice thing. Even before this recent diablo 3 hype, Diablo 2 must be one of the most long running patched games.

That my friends, are value for the money we bought the game for, what other companies has done this over the years? (not just recently and in todays gaming climate). This also goes for the dialogue they have now during the creaton of diablo 3, how much input have you felt that you have had in the creation of any other big titles?

We should be thankful, not blindly loyal, but thankful.
Blizzard is one of the best game companies in my simple opinion.

/PReP (lizard of reasoning)

Elly

12-06-2009, 13:25

I have to agree about the serial whiners. Some seem to thrive on moaning and most don't have a basic understanding of how games are developed and the implications of some of their so-called "simple" changes.

I think the vast majority of fans are appreciative of Blizzard's work and respect them as a company and the individuals that connect with the community. Bashiok, for example, handles himself admirably faced with the constant onslaught of "feedback". I'm not surprised he may have lost his cool a few times. However, their efforts for the community should be as they are, they owe no less. We are their community, their paying customers and (I hate cliches but...) if it weren't for the fans there would be no Blizzard. In any community there will be those with the social graces of a deficient child but by and large most of us know how to express ourselves without being a tit about it.

Although the Blizzard people I have met over the past 10 years have been thoroughly passionate about their work, about making the best gaming experience they can, they are in business. Make no bones about it, a constant behind this is to make a healthy profit, if not, they'd sell the game to break even, cover running costs and not make the massive profits they did last year. Customer support plays an important role in that.

Our support for Blizzard comes via our purses and wallets and if they continue making fabulous games and supporting the community as they are now then there is every chance this mutually beneficial relationship will continue.

sbn

12-06-2009, 21:11

Bashiok, for example, handles himself admirably faced with the constant onslaught of "feedback". I'm not surprised he may have lost his cool a few times. However, their efforts for the community should be as they are, they owe no less. We are their community, their paying customers and (I hate cliches but...) if it weren't for the fans there would be no Blizzard. In any community there will be those with the social graces of a deficient child but by and large most of us know how to express ourselves without being a tit about it.

I can't really give any kudos to Blizzard on how they handle themselves when interacting with the community on their forums, simply because they themselves have created this Frankenstein of a forum (which is after all the one and only point of contact for 99% of us). I always thought that one key point to having people register for a forum was so that it gave better administration to the site holders; i.e. thread locks, bans, etc.. are all primary tools you have to police these forums. And you certainly do have to police them.

But because this site here actually does have moderators that moderate, it really is a rare occurrence to see flamewars or unacceptable posts. This has been one of the biggest annoyances with me over the years, the fact their own forum, which represents their company, is such a cesspool. Make people register, have someone actively locking inappropriate threads, bans, etc.. and you would clean that forum up right away.

While they certainly do not owe us in any real sense of the word, from their standpoint they should realize by now that there are advantages to maintaining good customer relations, and disadvantages to making your customers unhappy. I can't say I have a positive experience with Blizzard the company, but in regards to others like Tripwire and Infinity Ward, it is night and day when compared to Blizzard.

Starving_Poet

12-06-2009, 21:32

I have to concur with their web presence. It strikes me as odd that the the developers with the most money, have some of the worst online presences.

I think it's because the large developers are loaded down with layers and layers of corporate bureaucracy that the smaller ones don't even pay attention to.

stillman

13-06-2009, 02:03

Not only is their official site a cesspool, but d2 bnet is as well. Without getting too into it and OT, we all know how Blizzard neglectd d2 and didn't even take 5 minutes to post anything as to why they neglect it. I'm sure they have many good reasons being busy with projects that bring in money while d2 bnet is free, but couldn't they at least post something? Couldn't they say 'We're sorry, we don't have plans to fix the problems right now, we're busy'? Blizzard instead keeps posting about their 'aggressive' stance on cheating. No one likes being lied to.

For these reasons, it makes perfect sense why there is some disrespect for BLizzard. Basically, it comes down to this: some of us are afraid of what may happen to d3 based on what happened to d2. It's just that simple. It's obvious Blizzard is smart and has learned from the past, but the jagged d2 scar runs deep in the fans. Blizzard is doing everything right with d3, but it's so hard to forgive them about how they handled d2.

Edit: And again: no one likes being lied to.

Ishtor

13-06-2009, 02:37

Krugar

13-06-2009, 03:30

I have to concur with their web presence. It strikes me as odd that the the developers with the most money, have some of the worst online presences.

I'd go as far as guessing they too agree with you and sbn. And were they reading this and they would nod approvingly.

I really have no doubts, they'd like to see 70% of the forum population just disappear and be replaced by... ermm... more brainy material. But I'd risk the reason they don't adopt more aggressive measures may be because of two things:

- During alpha and early beta of game development, it's quite possible that blizzard wants to surround itself of all kinds of opinions. And whiners may be especially valuable to them. Certainly yes-men aren't at this stage.

- A community always moves towards its focal point. It's possible that what we see in the Forums is the typical Blizzard player. And what can Blizzard do then? Alienate its most representative playerbase? As Stillman just pointed out the forums are really just an extension of Battle.Net. And the reply he got from Ishtor just a real-life example of this.