Ok then crawlingdeadman, whats your problem

[KremBanan]

with Pheonix shield on a PvM java?





:)

[Shanksie1337]

/drama

/getspopcorn

:)

[tinncann25]

Just rule of thumb never to listen to CDM, makes your character crap.

"what should I do with my new COA?"

"ORT SOL IT!!!!"

yep its true...

[crawlingdeadman]

i thought of this all a while back and could have sworn at one point that i'd typed it all out, but have gone looking through my posts (nearly 8k now whew) and cant find it. by the way i found out today that my hurt thumb is in fact a broken thumb so this is going to take a while to get it all out.

a long time ago i read a pretty cool post about mf. in it the poster talked about how you should evaluate each item of your gear alone and compare how much mf you can get vs the gain you could get from a non mf item. now you really should also take the long view of how all of your gear works together as well how each piece works alone. a good example of this comparison is gloves. say you're a sorc (doesnt matter what kind) and you're comparing magefists vs chancies. say using mages gets you to the next break point on fcr or that you run out of mana and just that little bit of regen keeps you going. using mages gets you more bang for your buck than a measly 40 mf. now same sorc you're thinking of using tal's armor but think viper may be the way to go. you look at what they give you and see the huge chunk of mf it offers while viper only gets you one skill and some res. since you're outfitting an mf sorc, you get more bang for your item slot by using tals. enough of this sorc crap, what i'm driving at is comparing items singly by seeing how many of the mods give you what you need vs what your goals are. i think it's time to compare.

since my personal favorite jav shield is spirit i'm going to compare spirit to phoenix. they both go in a monarch and are terrible blocking shields so there are a few areas that we can just ignore for the sake of this exercise. i'm going to compare only the mods and not the cost since if you're thinking about phoenix you'll have the funds for nearly any shield. here are the combatants:


Phoenix
100% Chance To Cast level 40 Blaze When You Level-up
40% Chance To Cast Level 22 Firestorm On Striking
Level 10-15 Redemption Aura When Equipped (varies)
+350-400 Defense Vs. Missile (varies)
+350-400% Enhanced Damage (varies)
-28% To Enemy Fire Resistance
+50 To Life
+5% To Maximum Lightning Resist
+10% To Maximum Fire Resist
+15-21 Fire Absorb (varies)


Spirit
+2 To All Skills
+25-35% Faster Cast Rate (varies)
+55% Faster Hit Recovery
+250 Defense Vs. Missile
+22 To Vitality
+89-112 To Mana (varies)
Cold Resist +35%
Lightning Resist +35%
Poison Resist +35%
+3-8 Magic Absorb (varies)
Attacker Takes Damage of 14

i'm going to strip out what i feel are unecessary for a typical pvm javazon and i'm also going to assume that most of the rest of the gear would stay the same regardless of your shield (with some exceptions that i'll note). keep in mind that this is pvm.


Phoenix
Level 10-15 Redemption Aura When Equipped (varies)



Spirit
+2 To All Skills
+89-112 To Mana (varies)


note: i took out the edam% on phoenix and the fcr on spirit despite there being instances of both being useful. you could have the ed% on phoenix be helpful in killing of light immunes. the fcr on spirit could help you tele if you're using enigma (shudder). i dont think of either of these two mods being a high point for a typical javazon however. as with the rest of this post, feel free to disagree, but also note that i'm right and you're wrong :tongue:.

as you can see neither offers a whole hell of a lot to a javazon. most of the res and defensive mods i took out as i see a javazon being primarily a ranger. also the defensive mods arent really all that great and if you're wanting an "in your face" shield i'd not use either of these shields.

the life went out since they're pretty close to the same amount anyway. with all that gone we're left with 2skills/~100 mana vs redemption. which offers more to a javazon? i think it's fairly obvious. redemption gets you life and mana back, whoopie doo. rangers dont need life gain typically as they're...wait for it... ranged. stay alive by staying back and not getting hit. we all know that one of the skills that makes a javazon a javazon is fury. it is hugely mana intensive. i propose that the only "good" mod on phoenix is half countered by the giant amount of mana you get from spirit. the other half of this complete killing of phoenix for a javazon is one or more of the following things; bigger pool (you gain mana back faster the more you have), leech (not really ideal imo since you have to hit something to leech it), massive regen (read: meditation), or my personal favorite, mana per kill. with as little as 3 mana per kill you can take over the rest of what redemption can offer. i know i said that we're comparing just the shield slot, but being able to do the one thing that phoenix offers with one or two little mods that are easy enough to find on gear makes up for breaking my rule. one final option which many people dont like is pots. quaff a mana pot. i know you think it means your build is inherently flawed, but it doesnt. how many games do you go through without using what's in your belt. it's there, use it! otherwise you may as well go around with nothing in it.

in closing i'll bring it back to the original concept; bang for your buck (item slot). which item gets you more or leaves you with enough flexibility to swap out other gear?

ps. use phoenix on switch you tools! it'll get you the same thing! peace out

[alphaz]

Just rule of thumb never to listen to CDM, makes your character crap.

"what should I do with my new COA?"

"ORT SOL IT!!!!"

yep its true...

I LOL'd IRL

[tinncann25]

Can we get a show of hands of those who read all of what cdm said?....yep thought so

[crawlingdeadman]

eff you. by the time i was done, i hurt. you damn well better read it.

[NASE]

You are forgetting the ctc fire storm that delay your attacks.


P.S. Why do so difficult? It's all about flavour. Some like the redemption and some need it. Others don't and prefer different mods to gain the same survivability.

[korialstraz]

Can we get a show of hands of those who read all of what cdm said?....yep thought so

I did. Was an interesting read and I agree with CDM :wave:

[Shanksie1337]

Yeah, i'm guilty of reading it all aswell - part in sympathy for the poorly thumb, and part because it's something i tend to do aswell. What's "best item" for you usually depends on what other items you are wearing in different slots and ofc the aim of the char you are gearing.

[crawlingdeadman]

personally i think the perfect shield for a pvm javazon is lidless. it's got great ~4 mana per kill and 1 skill (among other things). a socket lets you customize it a bit as well. i also like how amazinly powerful faceted shields are.

[droid]

+mana on Spirit is worth counting but +300-400 ED, and hence +300+400% bonus to your mana leeching, is not?

Plus, even though some of the mods are "situational", it is those few situations where your zon is actually in any appreciable risk of danger - Diablo/Dclone or Gloams or Nihlathak, e.g. - where the fire absorb and max fire/light resist and Redemption, respectively, actually make a big difference over Spirit.

Not saying that they outshine the +2 skills, necessarily, just think your underlying assumptions may be partially faulty :)

[Valindria]

I would just consider the cheap vs expensive.

Cheap:
Spirit Shield / Insight Merc

Expensive:
Phoenix / Infinty Merc

Personally this ladder is the 1st time I've been able to get the expensive setup and I prefer it. My torch already has ctc firestorm. The dual firestorms can be annoying when trying to quickly throw a lot. Overall I enjoy the 'fireworks'. I got in the habit of right clicking multiple times instead of holding it down.

My setup is Upped Titans/ Phoenix and Thunder strokes/ Spirit on a swap.

[Kijya]

I hate anything getting in the way of my overkills, spammage is a must I say!

ctc firestorm on phoenix is too annoying, though using it on switch is always an option as cdm pointed out, just as it is on some other chars (thinking of the mf/fcr/mana/infinity dillema of lightning sorcs).

[crawlingdeadman]

I would just consider the cheap vs expensive.

Cheap:
Spirit Shield / Insight Merc

Expensive:
Phoenix / Infinty Merc

Personally this ladder is the 1st time I've been able to get the expensive setup and I prefer it. My torch already has ctc firestorm. The dual firestorms can be annoying when trying to quickly throw a lot. Overall I enjoy the 'fireworks'. I got in the habit of right clicking multiple times instead of holding it down.

My setup is Upped Titans/ Phoenix and Thunder strokes/ Spirit on a swap.
cost wasnt something i care about. it's a truely easy choice if it is. no, i left it off like i said because for it truely to become an option, you have to have the runes handy. even if "price was no object" you have better options. a faceted monarch is loads better than any shield for sheer power.


+mana on Spirit is worth counting but +300-400 ED, and hence +300+400% bonus to your mana leeching, is not?

Plus, even though some of the mods are "situational", it is those few situations where your zon is actually in any appreciable risk of danger - Diablo/Dclone or Gloams or Nihlathak, e.g. - where the fire absorb and max fire/light resist and Redemption, respectively, actually make a big difference over Spirit.

Not saying that they outshine the +2 skills, necessarily, just think your underlying assumptions may be partially faulty :)

not worth counting, know why? because everyone who uses phoenix says something to the effect of "well you have redemption so you wont need any leech".

there's hardly a monster affect in the game where the fire absorb would be useful. only real threats fire wise are exploding corpses and those you will get hurt by the physical effect reguardless. in those situations stormshield wins hands down imo since it offfers both resists and a big chunk of dr%

[Uncle_Mike]

My javazone used a sanctuary and a phoenix. Sanctuary since getting good resistances was a pain, and phoenix for redemption.

I liked phoenix more, but my playstyle is pretty laid back compared to some so I didn't really mind the occasional firestorms and being slowed down a little at times.

The idea of pretty much never chugging any pots does appeal to me ;)

[fartAttack]

in my experience with phoenix on my java, i loved everything about it except for 1 mod which, imo, makes it completely unusable; ctc firestorm. i've a had a few deaths while poking bosses with CS as a result of the firestorm going off. it was also really annoying when it procs when you've built a nice big mob and have to run away from said angry mob while you wait till you can attack again.

spirit was an improvement, but a stormshield made me nearly invincible, and is by far my favorite. i wanted to socket it an ias m/k jewel, but never found one before i started a new char.

[tinncann25]

yeah...leave it to you guys to turn a funny OT CDM bashing thread into a serious discussion about shields

My java wears an HOZ.

[crawlingdeadman]

upped or no?

[Uncle_Mike]

yeah...leave it to you guys to turn a funny OT CDM bashing thread into a serious discussion about shields

My java wears an HOZ.

Zis is a serious thread!

[tinncann25]

upped or no?

It's upped eth zodded.

[superdave]

my whistan's socketed with a pdiamond kicks ***.

[alphaz]

moser's with 2 pdiamonds

[DZJB]

moser's with 2 pdiamonds
Better up it for more block bro. :thumbup:

[KillaMike]

lidless rocks on pvm java zon, 3-5 manaperkill and with p diamond in it, it gives res as well. oh wait, it got lower lvl req, why would i want that, i know, its m lvl gear... hmm...

but if i want spirit as my end game shield, it aint that gozu, 1 skills to all, mana per kill, res and other mods such as +max mana and cost less then spirit ( let alone phinex ) hmm... :scratchchin:

and java zon main play ground is cows for big packs of cows... 1 java can kill 20-40 cows with ez, and thats what, form 60 mana to upto 200 mana regen in 1 java... hmm... huge mana problems :whistling:

and unlike monarch shield, lidless

a) has lower str req so you can go for max block

b) more base block, so you have to spend less points in dex for mb

conclusion. go for stormshield :smug: and mock CDM for annoyin everyone and telling to back off *hides*

[KremBanan]

Phoenix
Level 10-15 Redemption Aura When Equipped (varies)



Spirit
+2 To All Skills
+89-112 To Mana (varies)


one of the skills that makes a javazon a javazon is fury. it is hugely mana intensive. i propose that the only "good" mod on phoenix is half countered by the giant amount of mana you get from spirit. the other half of this complete killing of phoenix for a javazon is one or more of the following things; bigger pool (you gain mana back faster the more you have), leech (not really ideal imo since you have to hit something to leech it), massive regen (read: meditation), or my personal favorite, mana per kill. with as little as 3 mana per kill you can take over the rest of what redemption can offer. i
ps. use phoenix on switch you tools! it'll get you the same thing!
I agree that its +2/mana vs redemption for spirit vs pheonix. But I dont agree that 3maek is enough for LF, I have played some amas with it, and I cant really say it was enough. You kill a group of 5 and get 15mana back, but you used 2-3 LFs, to kill them, which makes your mana out higher than mana in.


personally i think the perfect shield for a pvm javazon is lidless. it's got great ~4 mana per kill and 1 skill (among other things). a socket lets you customize it a bit as well. i also like how amazinly powerful faceted shields are.
Its 5maek from Lidless and I agree that it is a very underrated shield for a java, but..it requiers more maek equipment (and/or sox it with either Tir or 3maek(/IAS) jewel) to make it efficient.




You are forgetting the ctc fire storm that delay your attacks.



ctc firestorm on phoenix is too annoying, though using it on switch is always an option as cdm pointed out, just as it is on some other chars (thinking of the mf/fcr/mana/infinity dillema of lightning sorcs).


I liked phoenix more, but my playstyle is pretty laid back compared to some so I didn't really mind the occasional firestorms and being slowed down a little at times.

1 mod which, imo, makes it completely unusable; ctc firestorm. i've a had a few deaths while poking bosses with CS as a result of the firestorm going off.
spirit was an improvement, but a stormshield made me nearly invincible, and is by far my favorite. i wanted to socket it an ias m/k jewel, but never found one before i started a new char.
The firestorm can be annoying, and ofc as with a torch, the firestorm makes high multiplayer games impossible. But I have never ever died while poking bosses..the CS is just to powerful and its just matters of seconds before bosses are dead, so I cant say that I recognize the problem.
And if it interupt my attack, and it makes me kill monsters in 4-5sec instead of 3-4sec, the it aint really a problem.




The idea of pretty much never chugging any pots does appeal to me ;)
Here is my main vote for Pheonix(ofc). When playing/planning/making a LF/CS Java, the main things you need to think of is imo(in random order):
+skills
100% Pierce
dealing with LIs
dealing with mana*

Infinity takes care of LIs, Razortail pierce and when you equip a Pheonix, you dont have to worry about mana either. So you can have all other items dedicated for +skills. Which makes the playing alot more relaxed and laid back imo, but that is ofc my playstyle. (This is also why I prefer non-eth Titans, it alot easier to just tp to town and rep for 1gold and go back, instead of waiting for the replenish)
*chugging manapots is imo not a good options, it just takes too long for it too fill, and I dont have an endless storage of fullrev pots either..



if you're using enigma (shudder)
Shudder?? You have a problem with Enigma on a Java also now? ;)

[crawlingdeadman]

oh man, you must have missed the thread where i turned it into a discussion of teleport vs static.

[tinncann25]

oh man, you must have missed the thread where i turned it into a discussion of teleport vs static.

I think CDM needs a temp ban for bumping, clearly he added nothing to this discussion

[AxlStrife]

I think CDM needs a temp ban for bumping, clearly he added nothing to this discussion

Does he ever?:fire:

[crawlingdeadman]

i did... once...

[tinncann25]

i did... once...

post 1098 he said something useful. But since then...nothing.

[Zelator]

On my HC javazonkas I always used Whistans with PDiamond.



PS: Found this funny thing: http://i43.tinypic.com/2r43ckx.gif

[NASE]

On my HC javazonkas I always used Whistans with PDiamond.

Yippy, I'm not alone.




PS: Found this funny thing: http://i43.tinypic.com/2r43ckx.gif

wtf?

[KillaMike]

oh man, you must have missed the thread where i turned it into a discussion of teleport vs static.

do post a link, i want to laught at your arguments. 99% of your arguments i found most funnies post ever, beside the fact that most of them are more harmful then useful.

[DH Amazon]

do post a link, i want to laught at your arguments. 99% of your arguments i found most funnies post ever, beside the fact that most of them are more harmful then useful.

tele vs. static (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=543756&highlight=static+teleport)

[tinncann25]

I guess it is kind of sad that I posted so many times in that thread and have no recognition of it.

[crawlingdeadman]

heh, i'm an *** :thumbsup:

@killamike; i'm not really surprised it's taken you this long to get aggressive against me.

[LiftedUp]

When playing/planning/making a LF/CS Java, the main things you need to think of is imo(in random order):
+skills
100% Pierce
dealing with LIs
dealing with mana*

Changing topic again.

No Javazon with a reasonable (or even half-decent) slvl LF ever needs 100% pierce. It's a one point wonder skill that at slvl 12 is already allowing three out of four javelins to pierce. TGods, because it provides +% max res, light sorb, 20 (!) str, and LF/LS +skills, will always be the better option. Here is why:

Let's take an LF/CS Javazon with slvl 35 LF as an example. When thrown, her javelin will break into 36 bolts after auto-hitting the target (or the wall), and those bolts will seek out any monsters in the immediate area (it'd be great to have some mechanics knowledge there (e.g., specific radius on seek (cf. http://tinyurl.com/lahrm9 for some guesswork (~1/3 of the screen))) and will auto-hit them as well. If there weren't any monsters around, well, you should have looked before you chucked a javelin charged with lightning.

If she's at clvl 85 (97 available hard points) and has been focusing on synergies, then we're dealing with ~2100 points of light dmg per bolt. Throw on a Griffon's Eye, and now we're producing up to 2500 points and decreasing enemy resistance, thereby upping our light dmg even more. Oh, and there's that Infinity merc. At the end of the day, she and her merc are able to drop some packs in one or two throws, and while 100% pierce would almost guarantee odds like that, 75%, on top of what she's already doing (i.e., great damage and hitting a maximum of 36 nearby monsters), seems reasonable epecially in light of the sacrifices she'd make wearing Razortail over TGods.

[tinncann25]

Changing topic again.

No Javazon with a reasonable (or even half-decent) slvl LF ever needs 100% pierce. It's a one point wonder skill that at slvl 12 is already allowing three out of four javelins to pierce. TGods, because it provides +% max res, light sorb, 20 (!) str, and LF/LS +skills, will always be the better option. Here is why:

Let's take an LF/CS Javazon with slvl 35 LF as an example. When thrown, her javelin will break into 36 bolts after auto-hitting the target (or the wall), and those bolts will seek out any monsters in the immediate area (it'd be great to have some mechanics knowledge there (e.g., specific radius on seek (cf. http://tinyurl.com/lahrm9 for some guesswork (~1/3 of the screen))) and will auto-hit them as well. If there weren't any monsters around, well, you should have looked before you chucked a javelin charged with lightning.

If she's at clvl 85 (97 available hard points) and has been focusing on synergies, then we're dealing with ~2100 points of light dmg per bolt. Throw on a Griffon's Eye, and now we're producing up to 2500 points and decreasing enemy resistance, thereby upping our light dmg even more. Oh, and there's that Infinity merc. At the end of the day, she and her merc are able to drop some packs in one or two throws, and while 100% pierce would almost guarantee odds like that, 75%, on top of what she's already doing (i.e., great damage and hitting a maximum of 36 nearby monsters), seems reasonable epecially in light of the sacrifices she'd make wearing Razortail over TGods.

krems a nub, no one should listen to what he says. I go 0 pierce, i'm a rebel.

[Mav451]

Haha, well I am somewhat inclined to agree. Other than Cows, you rarely are going to see a situation that really demands 100% pierce (vs. the safety of 'sorb). E.g. if the group is only 10-15 monsters large, the benefits of 100% pierce vs. say 75%+ is just not very large.

I daresay, I might even regret putting 5 hard points into it - just glad I stopped there, b/c with shako/titans/torch alone, that's putting me at lvl 12 (75%). Add the additional 10% max LR, sorb, 60hp, +3LF, I'd rather use the Tgods. If anything, I would say it is pure bowazons (who rely on piercing MS) to deal with crowds more than anything else.

[NASE]

seems reasonable epecially in light of the sacrifices she'd make wearing Razortail over TGods.

And what sacrifices would that be?
You don't need the absorb, str and what ever else is on that belt. Al you need is damage, and razortails wins easily (last I checked anyway).

[crawlingdeadman]

honestly, what's more boring than another pierce debate? search for threads with "pierce" in the title and you get days worth of reading.

[KremBanan]

TGods, because it provides +% max res, light sorb, 20 (!) str, and LF/LS +skills
Ofc the mods on Tgods is good, but nothing really important for a PvM Java imo. Maybe if its hardcore. +% max res and light sorb is only maybe needed when running down to Baal(vs the souls). I say maybe, cause if you think alittle strategic when running down, you dont really have to worry about them. 20str..this gives you more life ofc, but some life more in PvM doesnt really matter much. + skills LF/LS...how much damage do you really get from some +3skills to LF?? If you dont know, Ill answer it: Not Much. +3 to LS is a joke, if it was +3 to CS it would made atleast some difference.
But overall, you do alot more damage with 100%pierce, than +3 LF gives you.


krems a nub, no one should listen to what he says. I go 0 pierce, i'm a rebel.

:thumbup:

[LiftedUp]

Al you need is damage, and razortails wins easily (last I checked anyway).

As a max dmg junkie, I guess I'd just closed my ears to this before thinking it couldn't be true, so thanks, Nase, for the epiphanic moment. Razortail ftw.

That said, I also like being wildly aggressive, getting in the face of Souls everywhere. I like TGods for that in a big way. I guess I should add my jav'er has fantastic -% enemy light res...so often, my first throw or my second throw is enough to break down the pack immediately; I know that's not the case for everyone. I don't need the 100% pierce; for me 83% is OK. I need to not get baked by souls et al. in the Throne Room during Baal runs.

[NASE]

/players 8?

[LiftedUp]

B.net Baal running channel (op shockbaal)--so yeah, the games fill up and run well.

The premium's on speed and efficiency...less so on playing through the game, which, I know, is bad business, but it can also be kind of a rush.

[crawlingdeadman]

blah (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598489&highlight=pierce)
blah (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139244&highlight=razortail)
blah (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=659204&highlight=razortail)
****ING (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=628165&highlight=razortail) BLAH! (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=536269&highlight=razortail)

please dont turn this anymore into an idiotic razortail vs tgods or pierce vs skills debate. go make a new thread or read one of the few i posted. look up how many times it's been debated before i've barely scratched the surface.

[KillaMike]

and i say, TGODS FOR ITS ABZ!!!

think about it, you can see in EVERY act lighting monsters, and when they hit you, they hit hard.

so CDM, i think it is a debate now :smug:

to make little man happy

MF ing: occu or eschuta? :scratchchin:

[NASE]

and i say, TGODS FOR ITS ABZ!!!

think about it, you can see in EVERY act lighting monsters, and when they hit you, they hit hard.

You only need absorb when you don't know how to play the game without. And then, it's smarter to learn the game then to just sorb.

I however can understand that some people can't learn how to play the game and I tolerate that those people use T-Gods.

[Shanksie1337]

^ ouch, tell it how it is!

[LiftedUp]

Eh. Well, I guess I understand that some people can't recognize that there's quite a few ways to play the game.

It's not that KillaMike doesn't know how to play the game without sorb, but rather, that in a already tiresome thread, he offered an opinion about sorb that meshes well with his play style.

[crawlingdeadman]

why post if it's "tiresome"

[NASE]

Eh. Well, I guess I understand that some people can't recognize that there's quite a few ways to play the game.

But I do recognize that.

There is the good way, and there is the other way.

[LiftedUp]

why post if it's "tiresome"

CDM, I apparently can't help myself or tolerate affronts to reason.


But I do recognize that.

There is the good way, and there is the other way.

In claiming just two ways, you've already demonstrated that you don't recognize it.

Also, and this is somewhat minor, are sorb and "the good way" mutually exclusive?

[KremBanan]

Lamest Flame War EVER

[LiftedUp]

^^ Vouch. ten chars

[crawlingdeadman]

i wouldnt know about the effectiveness of sorb in pvm, i dont get hit by lightning.


CDM, I apparently can't help myself or tolerate affronts to reason.

dont be so hard on killa, he's still learning.

[tinncann25]

Lamest Flame War EVER

you are just trying to spam to reach 10k, I know this is the only reason you are still posting, seeing that there hasn't been content in the last 2k, I feel that a mod should reduce your post count by 2k.

[KillaMike]

Lamest Flame War EVER


you are just trying to spam to reach 10k, I know this is the only reason you are still posting, seeing that there hasn't been content in the last 2k, I feel that a mod should reduce your post count by 2k.

his goal is 24k, look in etf ot :whistling:




dont be so hard on killa, he's still learning.

thnx, but honestly i use what i find, and t-gods are easier to be found for ama, so i use those, and by the time i find razor, i already spend qiete a lot of pts in pierce, so i wouldnt need those