Mystery Char

[LaZeR]

Well, after seeing this image
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e305/Daemaro/Raider.png

I thought to my self- I don't care if it IS the fourth character or not. He looks cool, let's make him one.

Anyway, I thought he'd be a desert D2 A2 char, some sort of an Assasian with better traps and Range attacks (sovling our range problem).
It's been hard to think of Skill Tree that would suit D3 and NOT D2 aka "Unlike the skill trees in Diablo II, the trees in Diablo III are not focused on just one aspect of a character. All known D3 skill trees have a wide variety of skills, with more passive than active, and all allow for a variety of play styles. ".

Assasination Tree
No point of hiding this will be a semi Assa build. This three will include:
1. Skills focused on separating emenies
2. Close ranged high damage 1 hit skills.
3. Traps

Combat Master Tree
His fast sword fightning tree which will include:
1. Fast attack with bonuses for using swords & daggers
2. Passives that will work for both this tree and the Assa tree

Unamed Range Tree
I wanted to put this in the Combat Master tree, but I thought this should get more focus as the main RANGER char. Anyway:
1. Range Bow&Arrow skills
2. Range kinda alchemist skills (throwing potions for ex)


This is about it. Detailed skills will come later. Tell me what you think.

[GuardianHadriel]

naah...:coffee:

[Knight_Wolf]

I think there was already a topic about this picture, it could be true they are planning a desert themed character and this was one attempt at it (other than the Dervish which we know got canceled early on).

Or he could be what Blizz was working on before realizing he is the Barbarian with a different skin then replaced him with the Barb (remember Blizz said the Barb was something else before they settled on bringing him back ... looking at the arm and chest muscles of the character here they pretty much resemble the Barb's strong body built).


Either way ... i too do wish we get a Ranged/light Melee/Assassin/Trickster hybrid with a Desert flavor ... that would be unique and NEW for a change.

[Sass]

Or he could be what Blizz was working on before realizing he is the Barbarian with a different skin then replaced him with the Barb (remember Blizz said the Barb was something else before they settled on bringing him back ... looking at the arm and chest muscles of the character here they pretty much resemble the Barb's strong body built).At first glance, it reminded me of the barb >>. I initially thought it was a barb in a desert outfit (change based on act? :O )



As for he class, I like the trees so far, but no traps or potions. :crazyeyes:

A light, fast melee (scimitar focus?) with swift combo strikes, mixing in ranged would work.

A desert marauder char would be neat :P

[Knight_Wolf]

At first glance, it reminded me of the barb >>. I initially thought it was a barb in a desert outfit (change based on act? :O )

Same here


As for he class, I like the trees so far, but no traps or potions. :crazyeyes:


I can understand the "no potion", but why no Traps, they could complement his ranged abilities quite well and make him very interesting, but they need to be done differently from the D2 assassins ones.

[NASE]

Because traps are boring. And aren't really original in combination with light mele and ranged attacks.

[Knight_Wolf]

Because traps are boring. And aren't really original in combination with light mele and ranged attacks.

Why is that, it isn't one bit true that traps are boring just because it wasn't done right in D2, i can already think of various tactics and elaborate trap combos that can be made for this character.

Most common logic basic combination would be traps that slow down your enemies .. once one enemy triggers one all enemies with in the radius of the trap are slowed down .. and the trap stays active for few seconds ... how is that not complementing your ranged skill if you are playing this class .. you can already create several choke points around you and hammer away with a bow or even a powerful slow crossbow at the poor fellows who thought they cornered you.

Or a Trap that pushes enemies back in a certain direction depending on what direction you were facing when you placed it.

Or another that sucks enemies like a large magnet so that you can effectively use some AoE skill or fire enchanted explosive arrows on them.



There are so many ideas for traps that hasn't been done in D2 and many combinations .. not only for traps with other traps .. but traps with skills from other trees as well.

[redrach]

Because traps are boring. And aren't really original in combination with light mele and ranged attacks.
True, traps in D2 were boring. But that doesn't mean they can't be improved upon.
For example, in the D2 mod Median XL, the Assassin has several traps. Two of these are the Seal of Fire and the Rune of Ice. The Seal of Fire rapidly fires at all targets around it (once every frame, or 25 times a second) in a small range. Needless to say, it does a ton of damage, but only if you manage to keep enemies within the range of the trap. Solution: the Rune of Ice. It's a trap which freezes all enemies around it for a long time, but with a very small detection range (almost melee). Plus the Assassin in MXL has a teleport-like skill called Blink, which has a short timer but stuns all enemies around the point you Blink to for a few seconds.
So the typical 'Sealsin' combo is to Blink right on to a pack of enemies, use Rune of Ice to freeze them all, and then spam Seal of Fire while they're frozen till they're all dead.
Throw in the fact that some monsters are immune to fire, others are immune to the freeze or the stun, and you have quite an interesting character to play.

So don't give up on traps just yet. :thumbup:

[LaZeR]

As for he class, I like the trees so far, but no traps or potions. :crazyeyes:

A light, fast melee (scimitar focus?) with swift combo strikes, mixing in ranged would work.

A desert marauder char would be neat :P


The problem is that he doesn't look "light" or "holy".
You said it- "marauderer", which means he'll use cheap street fighter tricks like TRAPS. That's why traps will fit perfectly with him, if, as said, they'd be completly different than D2 traps.

If he had a ~HOLY~ vibe to him I would agree traps are out. But I guess will save the Holy thing to another char.

P.S-
I'm not talking about if it's the 4th char or not.
I'm saying- Let's make him the 4th char. We have a picture, let the ideas flow~~~

[NASE]

Why is that, it isn't one bit true that traps are boring just because it wasn't done right in D2, i can already think of various tactics and elaborate trap combos that can be made for this character.

There are three things you can do. One is utilise traps as way to get magic skills going, like DII did. It's much more interesting to just use that magic yourself. We agree that this isn't really interesting.

Then, you can have real traps. Things that do damage when monster get close to it. Like something that explodes. Problem is that this will result in a slow paced game, which isn't interesting. You want to do damage, you don't want to lure monsters in your trap (not to mention the multiplayer problems).

And then we have the sort of crowdcontrol traps you describe. But why do we want to traps for that. If you want to slow monsters, you can use something like holy freeze, freezing arrow, mind blast, ground stomp etc. No need for traps, there are more interesting option (more interesting because they can be combined with other skills. Freezing arrow is a bow skill, thus can be combined with other bow skills, your traps is a traps and can only be combined with other traps.)

The things you are describing can be achieved with other instruments without the need to use traps. Then why use a static strange and unlogic system when you can do it different. If you really want something like that, work with static magic as this can be combined with non-static magic. (things like the wizard has in his/her time stop, with that frost nova thing etc.)

[Knight_Wolf]

Then, you can have real traps. Things that do damage when monster get close to it. Like something that explodes. Problem is that this will result in a slow paced game, which isn't interesting. You want to do damage, you don't want to lure monsters in your trap (not to mention the multiplayer problems).

Why slow paced .... and why not lure monsters in my trap if i'm the lure itself .. if they want to get me they will have to move over a ton of damaging traps while i unleash hell on them using my bow and cross bow skills ... i really don't get your point.

Traps are also but a single tree our of three skill trees that this supposed character could have ... i don't see anything slow about placing few traps to cover your back and turning around to bash some strong mob with a scimitar while the traps kill/damage another group that is trying to swarm you until you can turn around switch to your bow and whack them with ranged skills from your bow tree after the traps softened them.

And then we have the sort of crowdcontrol traps you describe. But why do we want to traps for that. If you want to slow monsters, you can use something like holy freeze, freezing arrow, mind blast, ground stomp etc. No need for traps, there are more interesting option (more interesting because they can be combined with other skills. Freezing arrow is a bow skill, thus can be combined with other bow skills, your traps is a traps and can only be combined with other traps.)

That's a very very weird logic .. why WD has zombie dogs why not just use fire magic, why Necro could summon an army of the dead why not just use bone magic ... ask yourself .. Traps are in some way a different type of minions with different characteristics, weak points and strong points.

And crowd control skills or traps are 200% combine-able with any other offensive skills you have .. even your ranged normal attack makes great use of crowd control traps ... at least traps are lay and forget .. they don't drain your mana constantly like using two offensive skills at the same time.

And traps can let you affect multiple locations at the same exact time unlike other skills.


The things you are describing can be achieved with other instruments without the need to use traps.

Same thing could be said the other way around ... Traps .. minions ... etc etc are all tools to achieve the same goals .. kill monsters.

Then why use a static strange and unlogic system when you can do it different. If you really want something like that, work with static magic as this can be combined with non-static magic. (things like the wizard has in his/her time stop, with that frost nova thing etc.)

From when are traps unlogical !!!!?

I don't know but you seem to have had a bad experience with traps in D2 and refuse to see any potential in them .. i have seen whole games built around the idea of using traps and i do know very well there are tons of ways for both combining Traps and Traps and combining other skills with traps .. the idea has a lot of potential really. (Ex: like redrach said .... So the typical 'Sealsin' combo is to Blink right on to a pack of enemies, use Rune of Ice to freeze them all, and then spam Seal of Fire while they're frozen till they're all dead ... it combines two trap types with an offensive movement skill .. and that's just two trap types and a single skill)

[Ishtor]

i think he said it all :coffee:

[NASE]

From when are traps unlogical !!!!?

You want something yet instead of doing it directly, you are making a strange turn just to get it.
Look at it this way. You want to be able to affect a certain region without the need of constant attention (or this, you want to go from France to the USA). Yet instead of making skill that do this, you want to put magic in mechanical things to perform this function (in stead of taking a plane, you are first going to Russia).

You want to be able to freeze monsters in place. You could utilise an arc shoot with a freezing arrow that covers the place in ice. If you want fire damage in on place, you can use the same idea or use immolation arrow.
You can create an arc shot skill that makes the arrow stick out of the ground vertically. Then you can implement magnetic force in the tip to attract monsters (that wear iron/steel).

I don't know but you seem to have had a bad experience with traps in D2 and refuse to see any potential in them [/QUOTE]

I see potential in the idea to affect a region with the need of constant attention. Decoy does exactly that and I like it. I abuse it all the time. Freezing arrow does something similar, certainly with a long freeze time. Hydra does exactly that and I have build (screwed up) a hydra sorcerer.
Yet you don't need to limit yourself to traps if you want to implement this. There are more interesting way to achieve the same effect.

[edit]
Grimwand has a traps-wise effect and yes, I've build a frenzy barbarian with this skill.

[edit2]
Traps for me are more like a '4th tree' that you weave through your other tree rather then a tree itself. it's a utility tool rather then a focus. And if you look at things this way, you don't need/want traps. With a bit creativity, you can create trap like effects with the mechanisms already in your trees.

[AtomicJ]

Um, I hate to slow the thread down, but where was that photo taken? I've never seen this art before, so it's something new to me! :thumbup:

An Arabian Nights-themed class would be cool. The artwork evokes a Rogue or Assassin type character, which is nice (there should be more melee/ranged classes than magic wielders IMO, as magic seems too common and less cool if everyone uses it). It seems like Blizzard is trying to bring together heroes from every continent of Sanctuary for D3. So far (the Diablo equivalents of) Scandinavia, Africa, and the Far East have been represented. Now we're possibly looking at a class from Arabia.

Not to ruin the international flavor or be the guy pushing for more Anglos in the game, but to be honest I'm still crossing my fingers for a Solomon Kane-style Rogue/Amazon/Assassin character, like the one I mentioned a while back: http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=716468. :whistling:

[NASE]

it appears to be a background/poster at some sort of blizzcon.
http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=725666

[wishforskillz]

Or another that sucks enemies like a large magnet so that you can effectively use some AoE skill or fire enchanted explosive arrows on them.



I can imagine the AI saying this.

"Guys, don't go over there, I just saw a pack of Fallen wander like 10 feet from that wall and then they got stuck to the ground. Then a freakin hail of arrows came and killed them."

[jakotaco]

You want to be able to freeze monsters in place. You could utilise an arc shoot with a freezing arrow that covers the place in ice. If you want fire damage in on place, you can use the same idea or use immolation arrow.
You can create an arc shot skill that makes the arrow stick out of the ground vertically. Then you can implement magnetic force in the tip to attract monsters (that wear iron/steel).

Sure if you want the same effect on the monster. But why does every skill have to be a "click on the monster to affect it skill". Besides the usage of such skills would be way different. A trap would be more of a preparation for combat while an enchanted arc shot would be an active combat move.

Now traps does have some limitations, especially in games where monsters mostly stands and waits for the player. With a more active monster AI however traps could be really cool.

I am however a bit uncertain on how they would be able to implement a mechanical trap into a game like diablo. Without adding some magic to the traps I guess it's limited to caltrops or maybe some chemicals on the floor, possibly some flammable oil with a fuse or with some technological achievements possibly a crude landmine.

[NASE]

Sure if you want the same effect on the monster. But why does every skill have to be a "click on the monster to affect it skill". Besides the usage of such skills would be way different. A trap would be more of a preparation for combat while an enchanted arc shot would be an active combat move.

Then you are working with slow paced things. You create your traps in one room, run to the next trying to get the monsters to run into the room with the traps.
This makes it slow paced and will cause problems with multiplayer. Your barbarian ally won't play like this. He will run in try to kill the monsters, get killed, call you a noob and leave. Where's the fun in that?

So eventually, you will probably end up using it just like that arc shot.


P.S. And why couldn't an arc shot function the way you want. Ice on the floor stay ice for some time. And that ice freezes for some time. That magnetic skill will keep on working for a period of time.
A decoy works for a period of time, as does hydra (perhaps a bit short) and grim wand.
You don't need traps. It's not like you want to secure a room for monsters that may or may not come within the next hour.

[Sass]

I can understand the "no potion", but why no Traps, they could complement his ranged abilities quite well and make him very interesting, but they need to be done differently from the D2 assassins ones.True, I did mean ones similar to the d2 sin's ones.

However, they weren't "boring", or anything like that unless you're bored by that class. I'm bored by hdins, but they require movement and focus, unlike traps :P

While they could be cool, they'd have to be redone. The way they were in d2 was like a small device casting a spell (lighting, inferno, etc). They weren't like a bear trap, or a dart firing trip wire, or something like that. Heck, explosive runes wouldn't be half bad >>


If implemented like that, I may lean towards it, but I'd rather have the fighting prowess touched on than a bear trap.

The problem is that he doesn't look "light" or "holy".And that's a problem how? He doesn't have to look holy. O.o

You said it- "marauder", which means he'll use cheap street fighter tricks like TRAPS. I don't remember traps in SF. Maybe it's just me and my lack of playing for a while. *shrug*

[Chorkstain]

I don't think conventional traps work so well in a game like this. But there are cool things which are kind of like traps, for example Corpse Explosion. I didn't like the way they were designed for D2 since they were just area spells in disguise rather than something that required planning.

So NASE says planning doesn't suit this game, which is right in the sense that you don't want to be planning traps and then luring packs of foes three rooms away. That's not fun or interesting. However you can plan things mid-combat, for example Corpse Explosion. What about a 'trap' which explodes and knocks back foes when they hit the player in melee combat? Actually the Sorceress had spells like that in D2. Anyway that's also a trap in a sense.

What does a trap do in this kind of game, or rather what SHOULD a trap do? It may help to define this sort of thing. Let's try it:

A trap is a technique which counters an enemy action.

This is pretty loose, but it doesn't seem bad. Enemy tries to run towards you, gets impaled by a spike trap. Enemy attacks you, gets exploded/frozen. Enemy casts a spell, receives heavy lightning damage. Going with this theme we could come up with lots of stuff, just think of what the enemy might do.

What this also does is makes the method of trap use an asset and not an inconvenience, as NASE complained about. It requires planning, but doesn't detract from the action. They are contingencies which can be incredibly useful if you use them with discretion and foresight, and they encourage variety since this style of trap is useful for specific situations.

I would classify this type of trap use as defensive and reactive, but it seems OK because they are still potentially great for dealing damage. A trap focused character would excel in controlling combats, being able to neutralize threats before they occur.

[NASE]

What about a 'trap' which explodes and knocks back foes when they hit the player in melee combat? Actually the Sorceress had spells like that in D2. Anyway that's also a trap in a sense.

Again, you are even saying it yourself. Why limit yourself to traps? All you need is an fire armour.

What does a trap do in this kind of game, or rather what SHOULD a trap do? It may help to define this sort of thing. Let's try it:

A trap is a technique which counters an enemy action.

This is pretty loose, but it doesn't seem bad. Enemy tries to run towards you, gets impaled by a spike trap. Enemy attacks you, gets exploded/frozen. Enemy casts a spell, receives heavy lightning damage. Going with this theme we could come up with lots of stuff, just think of what the enemy might do.

Again, no need for traps. All those things can be covered by a pure magic system.

[Sass]

Why limit yourself to traps?I think that's a build inevitability. The traps supplement the sin as is like in hybrids (ww/ls, k/t, etc) but trappers became a full build (synergies also helped tho).

traps like an explosive rune, or glyph magic might work if spells are used with them, but maybe a more mundane trap that makes sense could be used.

And with glyph magic, the class will eventually feel like a caster, or at least magic user, so possible hybrid. The picture itself gives no indication of a magical prowess however.

[NASE]

I think that's a build inevitability. The traps supplement the sin as is like in hybrids (ww/ls, k/t, etc) but trappers became a full build (synergies also helped tho).

And to get there, not using a full, complete traps tree is a good place to start. that enforces people to use different skill, certainly when investing more points in a single tree has advantages.

[Knight_Wolf]

Then you are working with slow paced things. You create your traps in one room, run to the next trying to get the monsters to run into the room with the traps.

I don't know but i feel that scenario is deliberately made to fit your view about traps being BORING .. either way .. i can already give many examples (and i already did) where you can use Traps mid-combat to cover your back or create choke points before dealing with a boss, a large mob swarming you or something like that .. there are tons of situations were traps can be useful and even more useful than normal minions or skills.

This makes it slow paced and will cause problems with multiplayer. Your barbarian ally won't play like this. He will run in try to kill the monsters, get killed, call you a noob and leave. Where's the fun in that?

That's what happens when players don't know a thing about each others play styles .. they could both agree to attack the monsters .. then the trap user would place some traps under their feet .. after damaging some of them he moves back laying traps on his way .. turn around and shower those who will chase him with arrows using bow skills.

And if both players are swarmed and need to fall back traps will do wonders if they leave a couple of them in their wake.


P.S. And why couldn't an arc shot function the way you want. Ice on the floor stay ice for some time. And that ice freezes for some time. That magnetic skill will keep on working for a period of time.

Sigh ... That's what traps are for.

A decoy works for a period of time, as does hydra (perhaps a bit short) and grim wand.

Hydra could very well be considered a trap more than a minion .. it's not very different from Assassins fire trap except it doesn't need activation.

You don't need traps. It's not like you want to secure a room for monsters that may or may not come within the next hour.

Exaggeration will not get you point through really ... monsters do swarm players all the time if you ever played the game .. in in MANY occasions you HAVE to fall back to previous room, a choke point or a tight corridor .. that's a given fact .. traps do work like wonders in those situations .. and like i said before they also do work very well in mid combat.

If you don't like them fine .. other people do like them and have creative and different ways for using them ... just don't use characters that have traps .. and if you want to use them .. don't spend point on the trap skills .. surely there will be so many other viable builds for a class that employs ranged bow skills and light melee combat skills.

[NASE]

Sigh ... That's what traps are for.
Hydra could very well be considered a trap more than a minion .. it's not very different from Assassins fire trap except it doesn't need activation.

That's the point. You don't need traps to get trap-like effects.


in in MANY occasions you HAVE to fall back to previous room, a choke point or a tight corridor .. that's a given fact ..

And what do we do? we put up a decoy or a valk. Or use grim wand. Or use freezing arrow.


All effects similar to traps without the need to really use traps.

[Chorkstain]

Again, you are even saying it yourself. Why limit yourself to traps? All you need is an fire armour.

What does a trap do in this kind of game, or rather what SHOULD a trap do? It may help to define this sort of thing. Let's try it:

A trap is a technique which counters an enemy action.



Again, no need for traps. All those things can be covered by a pure magic system.

So you're saying that there's no need to have traps, because these effects could be a result of spells instead of traps?

Well really, these could be a result of anything. Often whether something is a 'spell' or a 'trap' or a 'melee technique' is irrelevant when it comes to the in-game effect of the ability, it's just a name and a bunch of graphical effects.

When I defined traps, I wasn't specifically talking about mechanical devices that take enemies by surprise, but rather giving a name to a gameplay concept, a gameplay concept that is so far undeveloped in other classes.

[Taddl]

I think there was already a topic about this picture, it could be true they are planning a desert themed character and this was one attempt at it (other than the Dervish which we know got canceled early on).

Or he could be what Blizz was working on before realizing he is the Barbarian with a different skin then replaced him with the Barb (remember Blizz said the Barb was something else before they settled on bringing him back ... looking at the arm and chest muscles of the character here they pretty much resemble the Barb's strong body built).


Either way ... i too do wish we get a Ranged/light Melee/Assassin/Trickster hybrid with a Desert flavor ... that would be unique and NEW for a change.


... the dervish didnt get cancelled... all they said was that some of the team members liked the idea of having an dervish like char and all that jay said was that they never would call him dervish, because the majority of dumbass americans out there wouldnt know what a dervish is (except of those who played guildwars^^)

but the fact that they talked about a dervish class in public makes it really unlikely that this char will be in the main game... well, i like the dervishs stile and i sure would like to play one in an arpg... well, maybe in the expanxion :)

[Sass]

When I defined traps, I wasn't specifically talking about mechanical devices that take enemies by surprise, but rather giving a name to a gameplay concept, a gameplay concept that is so far undeveloped in other classes.I can speak for myself that when I hear trap, i think of a contraption, usually mechanical, that surprises an enemy (we'd use bear traps, pit falls, snares, etc).

D3 could use some, but I kinda vouch not having a whole tree, even if they were corrected from D2's traps.

[NASE]

So you're saying that there's no need to have traps, because these effects could be a result of spells instead of traps?

Yes. Because spells can be easier combined with other spells in a single tree. While true traps (some sort of physical device with physical or magical properties) will probably result in a traps only tree (as has been proposed here and on many other occasions).
And that not really what I want and I don't think I need this.

replace 'I' with 'we' when appropriate.

[Chorkstain]

Oh yeah, not having a whole tree of traps, for sure. So far most of the classes are designed so that each tree does not only encompass a single skill type. But it doesn't make sense that he's refuting my definition when he has obviously made additional assumptions about it when all I said was:

"A trap is a technique which counters an enemy action."

[Knight_Wolf]

That's the point. You don't need traps to get trap-like effects.

No it isn't .. things that have Trap-Like effects ARE traps or trap variations no matter what you name them.


And what do we do? we put up a decoy or a valk. Or use grim wand. Or use freezing arrow.


Not if you are busy clearing the way in front of you as well ... besides Traps can effectively slow/damage/stun/curse/distract multiple enemies without you having to aim or waste time targeting them.

Not to mention if you spotted the boss or mob before they did and planted few traps few steps ahead then moved into their sight to lure them into the traps you can damage them double the amount by BOTH the traps and your RANGED SKILLS .. BOTH at the same time.

All effects similar to traps without the need to really use traps.


lols ... That could be said for minions as well .. why use minions to attack my enemies when i can attack them with zeal or WW ... same logic .. and it fails badly .. the game does provide different ways to do the same thing .... each person picks the way that fits him .. what's so complex about that.

[NASE]

lols ... That could be said for minions as well .. why use minions to attack my enemies when i can attack them with zeal or WW ... same logic .. and it fails badly .. the game does provide different ways to do the same thing .... each person picks the way that fits him .. what's so complex about that.

Minion add a tanking and distracting effect too allowing weaker character to perform close range combat. Something you don't have with zeal.
At most, you could compare it to large range crowd control effects yet I don't think include the same damage over time is such a large crowd control thing will be balanced. Not to mention the fact that minions can be killed, something nor zeal nor those crowd control skills have.

[Knight_Wolf]

Minion add a tanking and distracting effect too allowing weaker character to perform close range combat. Something you don't have with zeal.
At most, you could compare it to large range crowd control effects yet I don't think include the same damage over time is such a large crowd control thing will be balanced. Not to mention the fact that minions can be killed, something nor zeal nor those crowd control skills have.


I already listed the differences between the Traps on other skill types.


-They can't be damaged like minions

-They can create effective choke points even in the open areas

-They offer you the chance to double/triple/.. etc your damage out put cause you can attack freely using your other skills while they activate and damage enemies on their own.

-They Offer AoE effects exactly where and when you want them regardless of what you are doing now (busy attack a boss or luring a unique away from your party)

-They allow you to activate two/three/four/five ... etc etc different effects ranging from damage to crowd control effects at the same exact time ... which is very hard to do in any other way


I can keep going .. but i hope you got the idea .. it is a fact there are people who like to use traps and can find great benefits in using them ... regardless of you considering them boring or not .. simply put .. traps aren't your thing .. but that's not a reason not to include them in the game.

[jakotaco]

Then you are working with slow paced things. You create your traps in one room, run to the next trying to get the monsters to run into the room with the traps.
This makes it slow paced and will cause problems with multiplayer. Your barbarian ally won't play like this. He will run in try to kill the monsters, get killed, call you a noob and leave. Where's the fun in that?

Yes, conventional wait-for-something-to-walk-into-traps would indeed be of little use in most scenarios. And I see what you mean, there are several trap skills in Median Mod and most suffer from that so that they are mostly used when the player knows monsters will spawn in their area (baal throne for example) However in some of the trailer videos it seems monsters are a bit more aggressive so while I agree there should probably not be a full tree for that kind of traps I don't see why it couldn't be one or two of them. Could be handy at times, and those who doesn't like them can just skip them.

And then there are trap like skills that can be used in combat aswell. Another Median example is the "Exploding Totem" which is pretty much a summon on corpse "Decoy" with very low hit points and a very powerful stun nova on death. Really nice skill.

[NASE]

I can keep going .. but i hope you got the idea .. it is a fact there are people who like to use traps and can find great benefits in using them ... regardless of you considering them boring or not .. simply put .. traps aren't your thing .. but that's not a reason not to include them in the game.


The point is that you don't need classical traps as there are different (more original) ways to achieve the same effect. With this in mind, you can distribute your trap-like effects over the other trees enhancing the versatility of those trees while at the same time enhancing the versatility of the whole character by allowing a third different tree to be developed.

[sinned]

Who cares, guys?! You two keep arguing for 3 pages now about something really offtopic.

Let's go back to the mystery char, you know, the actual topic of this thread, shall we?

The first thing I thought about when seeing the picture was a rogue/thief. I dunno how or if stealth would work in Diablo, but I'd definitely want to see a stealthy char ambushing enemies and sneeking around. The picture doesn't look anything like a barbarian, his style of clothing is different.

[Knight_Wolf]

Who cares, guys?! You two keep arguing for 3 pages now about something really offtopic.

Not really off-topic .. rather on-topic since we are discussing the possibility of that mystery character having a trap tree or trap skills


The first thing I thought about when seeing the picture was a rogue/thief. I dunno how or if stealth would work in Diablo, but I'd definitely want to see a stealthy char ambushing enemies and sneeking around. The picture doesn't look anything like a barbarian, his style of clothing is different.

We already are past that point .. everybody knows a stealth character won't work in D3 .. so this character could be more of an agile-evasive-light-ranger/warrior type .. that's how everybody saw it that way because we know all characters in D3 must be DPS characters.

Then we moved on to whether it should have a trap tree or not ... that's pretty much natural since all people guesses were similar regarding the character being an agile-evasive-light-ranger/warrior type .. the only design point that would need to be changed is making him more lean so that he doesn't look as hulking as the barbarian (like he is in the image).


As for the barbarian thing .. Blizz said explicitly they were working on another character that ended up turning into the barbarian in the end .. considering the very strong bodybuilt of this character in the artwork we can say it was that character.



The point is that you don't need classical traps as there are different (more original) ways to achieve the same effect. With this in mind, you can distribute your trap-like effects over the other trees enhancing the versatility of those trees while at the same time enhancing the versatility of the whole character by allowing a third different tree to be developed.

There is no need for an extra tree to begin with (he can already have one for ranged and one for light melee combat beside the traps one) .. why create an empty slot without having anything to put in it ... besides .. who said traps tree would be 100% traps ... it could be named (trickster tree) or something an can have trap skills ... passive skills that enhances traps .. evasive skills ... illusion skills ... etc etc.

As for so called original ways to achieve the same effect .... there is nothing original about all the things you mentioned, traps need to be traps ... how they look and work could be improved in several ways while keeping the as recognizable traps .. there is no need for convoluting things needlessly by overloading skills with extra effects.

Like wise .. take the WD minions example .. with your logic .. we should make the fire skull skill of the WD spawn fire minions whenever it is used .. and same with the fire bats and other skills ... and remove the other classical minion type skills since you don't need classical minions as there are different (more original) ways to achieve the same effect XD

[LaZeR]

Wow.
As OP of this thread I have to say some things:

1. As you can easily see if you have read my post I didn't make a Traps Tree. No, I used D3 mechanics and put traps in other tree to help other skills- Stealth traps, Range traps and close combat traps.

2. Actually, I agree with NASE. The wait-for-something-to-show-up traps won't work on D3 because it really is too slow paced. However, I agree that traps can be made into spell like traps with different theme and animation. I see no harm in this. You can call it Battle Techniques instead..

3. Can't remember who said it, but YES-the char doesn't look holy so it isn't holy. WD looks junglish so he has jungle skills, Barb looks violent so he has melee skills etc. Sure he can be holy with proper lore but for now and by only this picture he isn't.

4. That's about it. I can't see NASE's problem with having fast paced Traps that will suit D3. Considering this, we can go back to building our mystery char. I'll add some skills in a while, right now I'm kind of busy, but go ahead and suggest stuff yourselves.

[Knight_Wolf]

2. Actually, I agree with NASE. The wait-for-something-to-show-up traps won't work on D3 because it really is too slow paced. However, I agree that traps can be made into spell like traps with different theme and animation. I see no harm in this. You can call it Battle Techniques instead..

There are no such things as waiting-for -something-to-show-up traps .. that's one way to use them ... the same traps can be used mid-combat very easily, during boss encounters and during fall-back-after being-swarmed situations which are surely going to occur.

But still .. i don't mind any of the looks or naming changes you suggested.


3. Can't remember who said it, but YES-the char doesn't look holy so it isn't holy. WD looks junglish so he has jungle skills, Barb looks violent so he has melee skills etc. Sure he can be holy with proper lore but for now and by only this picture he isn't.

Sure he doesn't look very holy .. quite the opposite ... he looks like a rough desert raider, a marauder .. or maybe a desert nomad warrior.

I think Nomad would make a nice class name for him XD

4. That's about it. I can't see NASE's problem with having fast paced Traps that will suit D3. Considering this, we can go back to building our mystery char. I'll add some skills in a while, right now I'm kind of busy, but go ahead and suggest stuff yourselves.

Ok ... i'll suggest some skills .. regardless of tree.



Dual Daggers Mastery --> +20% to dagger weapons attack rating when dual wielded (5 levels .. +5% with each level).

Dual Swords Mastery -->+25% to swords hitting chance when dual wielded (6 levels .. +3% with each level).

Impeding Sands --> Nomad summons the power of enchanted sand to entangle the legs of his enemies and them slow down in a wide area ... only effective against ground enemies.

Sand vortex --> Nomad summons a violent but static sand vortex that pulls enemies into itself and damages them .. upgrades increase pulling range and damage.

Trickster ---> when active every attack the Nomad receives increase his dexterity by 4% temporarily .. upgrading increases cap .. max cap is 40%

Djinn Arrow --> A magical enchanted arrow that jumps from one target to the next .. upgrading increases the number of jumps and allows it to jump back to enemies it already hit.

Sandstorm Arrows --> every shot unleashes a barrage of earth/sand enchanted arrows that push enemies back and slow them.

Cluster Arrow --> An arrow that can hit any target or the ground .. after few seconds it explodes lunching arrows in all directions.

------------------------------

Those are just few ideas ..and as you can see i tried to make them desert themed as much as possible .... i always wondered why nobody used earth magic in Diablo.

[Sass]

We already are past that point .. everybody knows a stealth character won't work in D3 .. so this character could be more of an agile-evasive-light-ranger/warrior type .. that's how everybody saw it that way because we know all characters in D3 must be DPS characters.
Being a huge fan of subterfuge, i must dissagree. :(

I think d3's environment system might be able to accurately depict a stealthy char; something d2 could not (cos came close, but not very well).

The environment is far more interactive, and a char could have a possibility to use this for cover (sneak attack?) or as a vantage point (wall climbing like the ladder we saw?)

etc :P

[Knight_Wolf]

Being a huge fan of subterfuge, i must dissagree. :(

I think d3's environment system might be able to accurately depict a stealthy char; something d2 could not (cos came close, but not very well).

The environment is far more interactive, and a char could have a possibility to use this for cover (sneak attack?) or as a vantage point (wall climbing like the ladder we saw?)

etc :P


Sigh ... it has nothing to do with the environment ... you know what stealth is !!? ... in most stealth games your objective isn't to kill your enemies or massacre them (as in Diablo), in Stealth games you need to go from point A to point B and complete a specific objective without being seen or heard as much as possible ... killing skills come in handy if someone spots you but even those are stealthy and usually a one on one affair .. how is that going to be applied in Diablo !!!? ... how are you going to sneak attack a mob of 20 monsters waiting for you ... or sneak kill a boss that's three times larger than you ... it just won't work.

Putting a a character class based on Stealth in Diablo would really be the most silly thing to do ... as silly as putting a healer character .. it doesn't fit with the game nature one bit.


So NO for a character built around stealth (it isn't Metal Gear or Thief here)

But YES for evasive/escape skills ... which are already in the game anyway .. and are fine if each class has one or two of those.

[Sass]

Sigh ... it has nothing to do with the environment ... you know what stealth is !!?Being a huge fan of subterfugeNo, I have no idea what stealth is. I play a stealth oriented character and have no clue what I'm doing. half, no, 100% of the time, I'm hitting random keys and clicking like a madman on crack. :) What's stealth?

in most stealth games your objective isn't to kill your enemies or massacre them (as in Diablo)Cool. That's only a side objective, depending on mission I'd suppose.

in Stealth games you need to go from point A to point B and complete a specific objective without being seen or heard as much as possibleAnd how does that have nothing to do with the environment? O.o Stealth and cover come hand in hand...

killing skills come in handy if someone spots you but even those are stealthy and usually a one on one affairKilling skills also come in handy for killing. It shines in 1v1, but Sins never had a problem with mobs. Why would a similar char suddenly have no ability to fight a mob? This part makes no sense.

how is that going to be applied in Diablo !!!Um, maybe due to the better system it has for the environment? It's possible to hide in the areas seen in the gameplay and a stealth char would have an awesome time O.O

how are you going to sneak attack a mob of 20 monsters waiting for youSimple. You attack from a stealth state (hidden, flanked, whatever applies) and are granted a sneak attack bonus on damage. Then with one, maybe two dead (depending on attack combos), you focus on the rest. You don't have to sneak attack everything, but that doesn't mean you are completely ineffective if more than one monster comes along.

or sneak kill a boss that's three times larger than you ... it just won't workA one shot kill is far fetched, but an additional critical strike damage is far from illogical.

Putting a a character class based on Stealth in Diablo would really be the most silly thing to do ... as silly as putting a healer character .. it doesn't fit with the game nature one bit.Stealth....healer...They aren't even related, and both of your described examples already exist in the diablo games...How does that not fit, when many are currently using said chars?

So NO for a character built around stealth (it isn't Metal Gear or Thief here)It's possible you just don't like the idea of stealth. Others (like myself) would however.

[Zallirog]

Hello everyone! I'm a first time poster on here, however going back to traps there is a way to include them while still keeping them interesting and fun. One such method would be that you have to prepare the traps you'll use before you get into combat or something to that effect. Then when you see a group of baddies, the traps are premade so you can just toss the trap near their location and proceed to attack them to pull them into the trap! In the case of an explosive or pretty much any other kind of trap the throw and pull method would work excellently for Diablo. Fast and to the point instead of setting a trap by placing it wich takes some time, then running the mob through the trap.

I belive there is a ton of potential with traps, espescially if there is an assasin and if it doesn't use magic of any kind in D3.

[Sass]

That reminds me of baldur's gate, dark alliance 2's Borador.

He sets a satchel bomb, then independently detonates it when enemies are near.



And technically the sin didn't use magic (well, items...:P )

[NASE]

So NO for a character built around stealth (it isn't Metal Gear or Thief here)

But YES for evasive/escape skills ... which are already in the game anyway .. and are fine if each class has one or two of those.

What I don't get is that you can be so opposed to stealth while you love traps. In a classically approach, they both are slow paced. yet you assume traps can be made to fit, and stealth doesn't.

Why?


I think we should go back to what is the key point of stealth. Stealth is the unseen strategic movement to gain additional damage modifiers so strategic monster can be killed first;
Those fallen overseers forinstance. Or those shamans. That where a stealth character should focus on. Fast movement to strategic targets. Something other classes might not be capable off.

[edit]
And welcome Zallirog.

[Zallirog]

What I don't get is that you can be so opposed to stealth while you love traps. In a classically approach, they both are slow paced. yet you assume traps can be made to fit, and stealth doesn't.

Why?


I think we should go back to what is the key point of stealth. Stealth is the unseen strategic movement to gain additional damage modifiers so strategic monster can be killed first;
Those fallen overseers forinstance. Or those shamans. That where a stealth character should focus on. Fast movement to strategic targets. Something other classes might not be capable off.

[edit]
And welcome Zallirog.


I think the biggest factor of stealth being a problem in a game like diablo, isn't such that it is slow. The fact is stealth kills are typically intended for use against one specific target rather than a hoard of them. Also against a boss you would only get one hit then you would be exposed, so it would be a moot point unless your one hit was a one hit kill.

[edit]
Glad to be here! :D

[NASE]

That why it should only be a minor aspect of a character. It should be combine with skills to counter those drawbacks.

P.S. And making stealth work with multitarget mele skill is something that isn't a problem. For me anyway. It doesn't work with just single target skills, you make them multitarget.

[Zallirog]

That why it should only be a minor aspect of a character. It should be combine with skills to counter those drawbacks.

P.S. And making stealth work with multitarget mele skill is something that isn't a problem. For me anyway. It doesn't work with just single target skills, you make them multitarget.

True, but typically in a game with stealth your stealth is generally broken after your first attack, stealth usually won't persist if you make an attempt at attacking or get hit before you attack something.

[sinned]

Traps may work pretty well with a sneak attack scenario - you stealth your way to a pack of monsters, set up two traps near them, which activate when the monsters go into combat, and execute some starting move. In this way you deal some huge damage, but the character is relatively weaker than - let's say - the barb so you need evasive skills and the upper hand at the beginning of the fight.

[NASE]

True, but typically in a game with stealth your stealth is generally broken after your first attack, stealth usually won't persist if you make an attempt at attacking or get hit before you attack something.

You do additional damage because the monsters don't know you are there attacking them. It's that lack of evasive movements that are where your increased attack is.
So, if you attack fast enough and the monsters aren't fast at reacting - it's a magic game, so magic might help getting this behaviour - one might attack more monsters with additional damage.

I'm thinking about skills like zeal. It's fast and still agile. It's almost perfect for a multitarget physical mele attack.

[Chorkstain]

What I don't get is that you can be so opposed to stealth while you love traps. In a classically approach, they both are slow paced. yet you assume traps can be made to fit, and stealth doesn't.

Why?



Please take note of what people say. He already said that traps can be fast paced so there's actually no duplicity in his opinion.

I think we should go back to what is the key point of stealth. Stealth is the unseen strategic movement to gain additional damage modifiers so strategic monster can be killed first;
Those fallen overseers forinstance. Or those shamans. That where a stealth character should focus on. Fast movement to strategic targets. Something other classes might not be capable off.

[edit]
And welcome Zallirog.

I personally don't like the idea of stealth, but this kind of character should definitely be able to pick off strategic targets, as you say. A ranged character would be perfect for this, without having to be some crappy multi-target machine gun like the Amazon.

As for Knight_Wolf's perspective on traps, I think they are a bad idea as they are because they are simply targeted area spells. I already talked about my idea of traps as having a gameplay trait rather than necessarily being a 'contrapment', as such. Again, things like a fire armour skill or a glyph which deals heavy electricity damage to spell casters would be 'traps' under my definition. You can't spam them like area spells because they respond to an enemy stimulus such as attacking or casting a spell. The fire armour spell might be something like 'Fire Rune', which is used up when the foe strikes the player, but it explodes and knocks foes back. So it's not really a buff spell either.

Traps could be good, but as they exist in D2 they are not so great. Care needs to be taken to differentiate this skill type from other skill types covered by other classes.

[NASE]

Please take note of what people say. He already said that traps can be fast paced so there's actually no duplicity in his opinion.

Traps, just like stealth are slow paced mechanisms if you look at them from a classical point of view. Take baldur's gate, D&d or the real life.

Now, traps can be made fast paced (I'm not contesting this, I'm just saying it's not the best option, yet we had this already). So we go from slow paced to fast paced by making good design decisions. Why can't we do the same for stealth or stealth-like effects?

@ Chorkstain: ranged character can be used this way, though it's limited. You don't have an infinite line of sight, you can only hit one at a time, you need to make sure that there aren't other monsters between you and him. etc.
Notting that can't be overcome, yet I don't think it will ever get fast enough. Not if you assume that you have to compete with barbarians who can go after those monsters too once fury is build up. And possibility wizards later in the battle.
And for that point, I would try to design a stealthy character.

[Chorkstain]

A ranged character could accomplish this quite easily if he had an Arcing Shot ability, something quite suiting for a ranged character. He's so good he can aim high up into the air and still the shot hits his target. This way he can fire over hordes.

And you know? Perhaps stealth could be done, however only one or two skills should have anything to do with this. One that enables you to assume a ghost like form but drains mana constantly, so you can move in and out of crowds at leisure, so long as you've got the energy. A decoy spell might work as well...

OK, you know what? I really don't know what you guys mean by a stealthy character. Someone give me an example of how it would be implemented in gameplay and why it works. It seems to get dismissed as being unsuitable for Diablo's playstyle but were stealth to be interpreted differently, it might be interesting. So please... I'm all ears.

[NASE]

And you know? Perhaps stealth could be done, however only one or two skills should have anything to do with this. One that enables you to assume a ghost like form but drains mana constantly, so you can move in and out of crowds at leisure,

That's how I would do things too. Combine that skill with one or two passive skills to modify some effects, a couple of skills that can be used always yet gain additional damage when performed from a 'ghost-state' (both mele, ranged and poison) and some evasive skills designed to make an agile low life character survive when surrounded.
And if needed, you can even put in some magic ghost skills.

For me, that seems like a decent stealth like tree. To be combined with what ever you want (probably ranged and mele or traps)


P.S. And if things are to easy or not stealthy enough for some people, you can always use some sort of 'seen modifier' that defines the additional damage you can do. So the better you are at high paced stealth, the more damage you will as you will be 'seen' less.

[edit]
That picture of the mystery class makes me think of those guys from mummy (that movie). They were holy warriors IIRC with some strange (stealth) techniques. Perhaps we can get inspiration there.

[LaZeR]

Stalth is tricky since it brings up the slow pace problem again (especially, as said, considering you need to keep up with the Barb). So, IMO, no Stealth nor Traps skills should be made as a special tree, but combined with the 3 main tree to make then minor and as fast paced as possible.
Anyway, my suggestions:

Chameleon- Taken from the WD skill idea, your body takes the colors of your surrounding, boosting your defense.

Inivisibility- Pretty basic. You can't be seen. This would be the Noman teleport for skipping areas he doesn't like.
And skills you can use while insivible:

Assasination- 1 hit skill with major cooldown and massive damage which breaks your invisibility. A good way to start a battle or take down an annoying well protected Shaman.

Mine- The Nomad throws where he stands a bomb that detonated on place. This forces the player to get right next to a monsters/in the middle of a crowd so the enemies will be hit. The blast radius should be small to enhance the Stealth espcet to the skill.

As for Traps- To sum the discussion up, I think you should call it Battle Techniques/Battle Tricks. It's better since they will be more of "spell" skills than a "trap" skills. IMO. Maybe that will help you come up with new ideas (:

[Sass]

Well slow paced and traps doesn't really make much sense. You do use time to lay them, but then rapidly run through monsters due to the extra damage / effect. You take time, to speed up kill speed....that's average to my ears. =/

In terms of stealth; it can be slow, but it doesn't have to be. Depending on how much shadow play comes in (an addition of a stealth char would put importance of environmental cover, keeping to the shadows, etc), one could sneak at regular speed (especially a nimble, stealthy person). The extra damage boost would clear a critical monster (fallen leader perhaps?) and then deal with the others quickly with fast attacks. It seems imba when I re-read that, but at least fast combo attacks or w.e