Pvp Bowazon (Possible Hybrid)

[CrooklynDodger]

Ok so basically I'm just making this thread because I plan to make a bowazon and I want to have a thread to run ideas through on gear, stats, skills and strategy. I prefer to not just read guides because they often leave many questions unanswered and it's also not personalized for your character. What's good for some might not be good for others. Here's how I'm going to kick off the thread...

Ok so I plan on using this build mainly in 4v4 good mannered duels and pubs but if I could somehow get away with using her in 1v1 gm ft5 even if just every once in a while to throw someone off in blind duels that would be great. So that begs the age old question pure bowa or hybrid. I have heard that having the SS/eTitans on switch will provide me a lot more survivability than CTA and I am tending to agree since a lot of times I will have BO from pally or barb in 4v4 anyway. Is there any better alternative javs and I should probably be using SS with a -15 req jewel but what other mods would be ideal on this jewel?

And of course glass cannon, vita or both. Since I want to use mainly in 4v4 I am of the opinion that a glass cannon or at least leaning heavily towards it would be more effective since often times you have decent protection in hammerfields, traps and just other characters in general. However, is this build effective at all outside of team dueling?

I'm sure the answer to the previous question is heavily based on inventory and although I should be able to get my hands on most core gear a full inventory of 3/20/20's is out of the question so that leaves me with what my inventory should contain. Should I focus mostly on max/ar (lifers of course if possible but probably won't fill an inv), should I have torch and anni, should I have psd, should I have just plain life scs? Originally I was thinking max/ar but I feel the ar will probably go to waste since you don't need ar for guided and I probably won't be firing multi at high defense characters often. Also I know that R/w is often valued by zons how much is needed for desynch running and how important is that frw? Do I need to hit any fhr breakpoints or should I not bother because most characters that would fhr lock me would end up dodge locking me regardless?

For skills I basically plan on following the pure hybrid guide which is as follows...
Guided Arrow- 20
Critical Strike- 70% chance minimum
Penetrate- 1
Pierce- 1
Dodge- 55% minimum
Avoid- 65% minimum
Evade- 55% minimum
Strafe- 1
Jab- 1
Lightning Bolt- 1
Lightning Fury- 1/0
Decoy- 1
Valkyrie- 1
All other prereqs- 1
Multishot- all remaining points

This is of course unless someone talks me into using something aside from javs/ss on switch. The question I have here is how valuable is valk/decoy? Are they 1 point wonders or should I use some of my extra points in them as I see that having available points isn't a huge problem.

My gear plans so far are looking something like this (I'm open to hearing any and all suggestions on this just please make sure you tell me WHY and numbers speak volumes to me) [Note: I plan on hitting 7 fpa so assuming no bow changes my gear MUST have 92% ias]...
Bow: Faith GMB (Great damage output and I already have one 1 ed from perf so hard to argue against it)
Helm: 45/125 helm (Going to look for one with 30 r/w pending answers to earlier questions) (In all likelihood required to hit 7 fpa with GMB faith)
Ammy: Cats Eye Ammy (Dex/Rw/Ias all seem valuable and will probably be only way I can hit 7 fpa with GMB)
Armor: Fortitude (more damage output, resist, more life than whale suffix)
Gloves: Currently trying to craft some 20 ias, knockback gloves (These will of course supply the all important knockback and help hit the 7 fpa)
Rings: Here I have a question probably ideally I would want to use 2x 20 dex ravens but since in GM dueling normally only 1 source of sorb is allowed what's the ruling here? What are some alternatives?
Belt: Nos Coil (Required to hit 7 fpa but what is thought of the slow in GM dueling? I assume it is tolerated since most BvC probably use Arach but I guess I can substitute Goldwrap if I must)
Boots: War Travs unless I come across some amazing Classic boots (Adds great damage, decent stats and r/w)
Switch: Still up in the air

Stash:
Now is it important that I have sorb/resist gear here because with my regular gear it looks as if no amount of sorb could save me from my horrid resists. What are some things I should look into keeping here? Please note prebuff is not tolerated in GM duels so no demon limb or anything.

That's basically all I have thus far please get back to me with any feedback at all. Thanks for reading I know it was long.

[Raith]

SS with ideal jools would be -15/15res of -15/one high res mod. life is okay too.
why do you need penetrate/pierce? even if its for one point, why? it does GA nothing. same goes for LF.
i prefer giant skull over 30frw if you can get enough frw charms. plus, this would let you get a glove without kb. and GS provides str, which lets you carry SS.
a good ring to go with raven is a dex/str/res/life rare.

slow is bm in gm dueling i believe, id use 15% dungos. therefore when youre in switch mode, and if you want to tank someone, you would have 50%dr.

titans/ss lets you tank, and titans gives frw. idk what other jav people would tell you to use. hope what i provided answers most/some of your questions.

[CrooklynDodger]

SS with ideal jools would be -15/15res of -15/one high res mod. life is okay too.
why do you need penetrate/pierce? even if its for one point, why? it does GA nothing. same goes for LF.
i prefer giant skull over 30frw if you can get enough frw charms. plus, this would let you get a glove without kb. and GS provides str, which lets you carry SS.
a good ring to go with raven is a dex/str/res/life rare.

slow is bm in gm dueling i believe, id use 15% dungos. therefore when youre in switch mode, and if you want to tank someone, you would have 50%dr.

titans/ss lets you tank, and titans gives frw. idk what other jav people would tell you to use. hope what i provided answers most/some of your questions.Probably resist jewel won't help much since no matter what my resists will suck. -15/20 life probably is good advice.

Penetrate, pierce are nice because you still use AR for multi and strafe and you would be surprised how often you pierce people with multi to get more. Not to mention...why not? Where would be better allocation of the points? That was THE zon guide I was pointed to by this forum that the skill points came from but I'm definitely down to deviate from it if you can justify a better allocation of the points.

Why do you prefer gskull? You can't use gskull and fort and still get 7 frame attack with GMB you need to use Mat bow. And yes using skull is nice for the strength but at the same time all it frees up for you is gloves...what amazing stats are you going to be able to muster up with gloves? I think it's much better to leave helm option open with sockets which are much more versatile and can fill larger gaps.

I'm still waiting to hear about slow because I know for a fact all bvc use arach which also has slow. So I don't see why Nos coil would be bm. I think I will have a dungos and wf in stash for when it's time to tank and bring out the pain train on some barbs or something but unless I use 160/60 I will need the 10% ias from Nos or Goldwrap to make 7 fpa.

Yeah I am pretty sure eTitans are going to be the answer I'm going to hear but just want to make sure. And also want to make sure that going hybrid is the right choice for me.

[Raith]

well, how i see it is the damage output. are you going to use strafe in pvp? ive tried it and *do not* recommend it. yeah youll use multi, multi dont kill minion stack better than lf(which youll need for switch). LF with synergies works wonder so thats where id spend my leftover points.

[tinncann25]

well, how i see it is the damage output. are you going to use strafe in pvp? ive tried it and *do not* recommend it. yeah youll use multi, multi dont kill minion stack better than lf(which youll need for switch). LF with synergies works wonder so thats where id spend my leftover points.

Umm synergies of LF add 1% increase in damage. I would justify his point in that pierce is nice when dueling Druids/necros with minions. If you want to increase damage against minions the best bet would be to put hard points into LF

[CrooklynDodger]

I don't think synergies in Lf is a good way to spend the points as it adds no significant damage when you don't have a lot of hard points. I think that my best weapon against minion stack will be multi more than lf. Not completely sure though.

Does everyone agree that having the javs/shield on switch is better than cta or demon limb or anything like that?

[SlainByPain]

First off, yes, glass cannons are probably the best for team duels.

Building an amazon for 1v1 GM dueling and public duels is pretty different from a TvT one so It'd be pretty hard to make one that works for both.

A hybrid in my eyes means that you actually invest more than 1 point in jav skills. Regardless of whether you're a pure bowazon or a hybrid you should have a jav/ss switch. You may put a CTA in cube for 1v1 GM dueling (the loss isn't that big since it's just 4 charms, unlike other characters who may end up losing +skills) if you want. Obviously this won't matter in TvT since you'll be BO'd by someone else.

I find strafe to be largely useless over multi/ga. The only time it might be useful is against non-block/low defense characters and you shouldn't be losing to those anyway. With that said, I still skill strafe on most bowazon variants since it's just 1 point. Also, Ii you're fine with using a lot of mana potions, maxing out multi-shot isn't a bad idea for team duels.

For rings, a ravenfrost and a stat ring is optimal. I'm pretty sure you'll die in one hit to blizzard anyway. I think some rules consider dual ravens on a bowazon legal but I don't see it as necessary. The one annoyance in using a stat ring is that you can't switch out to wisp + ravens against hybrid assassins.

Your charms should consist of as many life/damage/ar charms as possible. Grand, large, whatever. Get your life to at least 1kish before BO. It may be expensive but without them your amazon will suffer greatly. FRW and FHR charms may be used after you feel you have enough life. However, IMO frw is overrated (especially in TvT and ladder). Your build + titans will already give you 115% frw. I usually aim for 120% (add 1 or 2 frw charms), but many people will tell you to get at least 150%. Use your own judgment here.

For the switch weapon, titans is a given. The FRW is important for most situations. However, if you ever feel you want to beat smiters, high damage rares are your best bet. The shield should probably be a - req SS. However, if you need to add points in strength to use it and don't feel like str glitching, an artistans shield of deflecting with 3x bers is also viable. -Req and life can't spawn on a magic jewel (both are suffixes) so the maximum life you'll get on a -req/life jewel is 8. If allowed, using lacerators for the amp damage is viable. Last wish may be used to similar effect.

I agree with the point about spending points in LF and synergies not really being worth it. LF's lightning damage is simply not effective without proper +skills/synergies. In contrast, plague/poison javelin is effetive with relatively less +skills/skill points. HOWEVER, plague/poison javelin is pretty ineffective in team duels, so in that regard I would not recommend it. If you're looking for some free skill points, you can choose to lower your evade/dodge to 50%. Somtimes LESS dodge is useful and 50% is perfectly fine for me (preference here). Avoid can actually be left at base if you wanted, since the only ranged attacks that should hit you while attacking/standing still are FoHs and MAYBE guided arrows if you mess up. Of course, every bit of dodge% is nice when you have nothing else to spend points on, so if you're going for a pure bowazon then it's not a problem. Don't skip pierce of LF. LF is your best weapon against smiters and are great for clearing druid summons. Pierce helps against summons as well in conjunction with LF. Multi is bad against druids because if he teleports on you with bow out you're dead. Clay golem and shadows can be cleared with multi but I prefer guided arrow since they have a lot of health. This is especially true for clay golem because getting slowed is devastating.

Now onto 1v1 GM dueling. The biggest problem with your build in 1v1 is that there's very low versatility. Mainly, building around the strength given by nos coil. Switching out the belt for verdungos is necessary against pretty much all physical damage characters just to name one.

I think the most viable thing for you to do would be to either build around using a 160/60 or to build around fortitude but throw the extra 15 points into strength and keep a 160/60 in stash. This will allow you to switch out to things like kiras and verdungos for different matchups.

All in all, it's just about how much raw damage you're willing to sacrifice for survivability/1v1 ability.

edit: That came out longer than I thought, sorry.

[tinncann25]

I don't think synergies in Lf is a good way to spend the points as it adds no significant damage when you don't have a lot of hard points. I think that my best weapon against minion stack will be multi more than lf. Not completely sure though.

Does everyone agree that having the javs/shield on switch is better than cta or demon limb or anything like that?

Lf is gona be better than multi at killing minions. How you are going to be dueling is running around with jav/shield and switching to shoot. This gives you max block and greater run speed (titans).

[Raith]

i thought LF already pierced? :/

[CrooklynDodger]

It splits and bounces everywhere.

First off, yes, glass cannons are probably the best for team duels.Ok so would a happy median would be leaning towards glass cannon but adding some vit be a good choice? Or should I just sell out and go glass cannon and hope for the best in 1v1 gm and pubs?


A hybrid in my eyes means that you actually invest more than 1 point in jav skills. Regardless of whether you're a pure bowazon or a hybrid you should have a jav/ss switch. You may put a CTA in cube for 1v1 GM dueling (the loss isn't that big since it's just 4 charms, unlike other characters who may end up losing +skills) if you want. Obviously this won't matter in TvT since you'll be BO'd by someone else.Ok thanks for the tip


I find strafe to be largely useless over multi/ga. The only time it might be useful is against non-block/low defense characters and you shouldn't be losing to those anyway. With that said, I still skill strafe on most bowazon variants since it's just 1 point. Also, Ii you're fine with using a lot of mana potions, maxing out multi-shot isn't a bad idea for team duels.Agreed I'm used to chugging blues using a ghost sin it's not a big deal to me.

For rings, a ravenfrost and a stat ring is optimal. I'm pretty sure you'll die in one hit to blizzard anyway. I think some rules consider dual ravens on a bowazon legal but I don't see it as necessary. The one annoyance in using a stat ring is that you can't switch out to wisp + ravens against hybrid assassins.How much would whisp save me against say a cs zon or lite sorc? I sort've think I will be dead anyway so losing the ring flexibility won't matter to me unless I hear otherwise.

Your charms should consist of as many life/damage/ar charms as possible. Grand, large, whatever. Get your life to at least 1kish before BO. It may be expensive but without them your amazon will suffer greatly. FRW and FHR charms may be used after you feel you have enough life. However, IMO frw is overrated (especially in TvT and ladder). Your build + titans will already give you 115% frw. I usually aim for 120% (add 1 or 2 frw charms), but many people will tell you to get at least 150%. Use your own judgment here.Which Fhr breakpoint should I be aiming for? Poison? Why do you value r/w lower than other people.


For the switch weapon, titans is a given. The FRW is important for most situations. However, if you ever feel you want to beat smiters, high damage rares are your best bet. The shield should probably be a - req SS. However, if you need to add points in strength to use it and don't feel like str glitching, an artistans shield of deflecting with 3x bers is also viable. -Req and life can't spawn on a magic jewel (both are suffixes) so the maximum life you'll get on a -req/life jewel is 8. If allowed, using lacerators for the amp damage is viable. Last wish may be used to similar effect.Rare jewels are a wonderful thing should be no problem getting -req/life.

I agree with the point about spending points in LF and synergies not really being worth it. LF's lightning damage is simply not effective without proper +skills/synergies. In contrast, plague/poison javelin is effetive with relatively less +skills/skill points. HOWEVER, plague/poison javelin is pretty ineffective in team duels, so in that regard I would not recommend it. If you're looking for some free skill points, you can choose to lower your evade/dodge to 50%. Somtimes LESS dodge is useful and 50% is perfectly fine for me (preference here). Avoid can actually be left at base if you wanted, since the only ranged attacks that should hit you while attacking/standing still are FoHs and MAYBE guided arrows if you mess up. Of course, every bit of dodge% is nice when you have nothing else to spend points on, so if you're going for a pure bowazon then it's not a problem. Don't skip pierce of LF. LF is your best weapon against smiters and are great for clearing druid summons. Pierce helps against summons as well in conjunction with LF. Multi is bad against druids because if he teleports on you with bow out you're dead. Clay golem and shadows can be cleared with multi but I prefer guided arrow since they have a lot of health. This is especially true for clay golem because getting slowed is devastating.Probably will steer away from plague jav and other related skills no one I duel with is dumb enough to run into one of those heh.


Now onto 1v1 GM dueling. The biggest problem with your build in 1v1 is that there's very low versatility. Mainly, building around the strength given by nos coil. Switching out the belt for verdungos is necessary against pretty much all physical damage characters just to name one.Yeah I was thinking about either building around 160/60 or dropping to 8 fpa against a lot of phys damage dealers.

I think the most viable thing for you to do would be to either build around using a 160/60 or to build around fortitude but throw the extra 15 points into strength and keep a 160/60 in stash. This will allow you to switch out to things like kiras and verdungos for different matchups.Indeed

All in all, it's just about how much raw damage you're willing to sacrifice for survivability/1v1 ability.Probably ideally not much

edit: That came out longer than I thought, sorry.Don't worry about it you shared lots of valuable information.

[Raith]

if your res suck, wisp wont save you.

[SlainByPain]

It's true that wisp won't save you with your normal build (except against thunderstorm). However, if you decide to swap on kiras it's pretty useful. Torch/anni + a 15/15'd kiras +anya + faith is already 70 resists. As stated before though, this will only matter against hybrid assassins and V/Ts (CBF doesn't matter against others).

FHR isn't much of an issue on amazons since it's rare that you're hit continuously due to dodge. This means being 'FHR locked' doesn't happen very often. Mindblast is the exception to this but it's relatively easy to WSG out of mindblast for a bowazon. Personally I normally switch in treks and a 24 fhr belt against assassins 1v1 but I think you'd be fine with 20 or 34 in TvT.

I find FRW to be overrated on charms because you lose so much life for so little difference in run speed. Also, I don't rely that much on desync. You start to desync at around 120% and it's said that it improves up to 150+ (not really proven). IMO for a glass cannon, and especially if you're low on funds you should try to aim for life charms over frw charms. A zon running around with 500 hp or even less before BO dies even to things like teeth, hurricane, thunderstorm, and mindblast.

Poison charms add almost nothing to your damage so it's pretty much a waste of time.

Slightly off topic:

About plague javelin not hitting people. Even if people don't run into your plague javelins, it's still doing it's job for a hybrid. I've found that the best thing about having plague javelin as a backup attack is that if they choose to dodge it, it prevents people from telestomping. Good maxblock sorcs/necros.. well everything will try to telestomp you to get you in dodge lock and prevent you from firing arrows so negating that gives you a lot more room to fire arrows. This doesn't really apply to barbs since they pretty much HAVE to get hit by plague. Melee paladins and hammerdins are better off since they can use desync to try and trick you. However, it's still great because getting hit by plague javelin reveals their position and if they're not running into plague javelin that means they're not attacking you.

Pure plague/poison javelin zons work much differently in that they have to use it offensively in combination with teleport against most classes.

[CrooklynDodger]

It's true that wisp won't save you with your normal build (except against thunderstorm). However, if you decide to swap on kiras it's pretty useful. Torch/anni + a 15/15'd kiras +anya + faith is already 70 resists. As stated before though, this will only matter against hybrid assassins and V/Ts (CBF doesn't matter against others).
Good point I do plan on having a pretty vast stash since it's invaluable in 1v1 gm. I will maybe go with 2x ravens rather than depending on stat ring or glitch myself so that I may free up ring slots for gear flex.

FHR isn't much of an issue on amazons since it's rare that you're hit continuously due to dodge. This means being 'FHR locked' doesn't happen very often. Mindblast is the exception to this but it's relatively easy to WSG out of mindblast for a bowazon. Personally I normally switch in treks and a 24 fhr belt against assassins 1v1 but I think you'd be fine with 20 or 34 in TvT.Yeah I was thinking about some lite/fhr boots and belt for against sins to stash. It's low priority since every other time I would be fhr locked I would end up dodge locked anyhow.

I find FRW to be overrated on charms because you lose so much life for so little difference in run speed. Also, I don't rely that much on desync. You start to desync at around 120% and it's said that it improves up to 150+ (not really proven). IMO for a glass cannon, and especially if you're low on funds you should try to aim for life charms over frw charms. A zon running around with 500 hp or even less before BO dies even to things like teeth, hurricane, thunderstorm, and mindblast.Ideally I would like to have 1k life without Bo and then the rest will be frw. Hopefully I can make it to both 120 frw and 1k life but I'll have to see. I was able to do it in single player using half an inventory of lifers and half frw and a 30rw/45/120 helm so hopefully I can get my hands on one of those badboys. (Also unsurprisingly it was very easy to find 3/x/3's and other such charms in sp a task which isn't something to scoff at in realm play so we'll have to see how that works out)


Poison charms add almost nothing to your damage so it's pretty much a waste of time.That's what I thought the general consensus was but just wanted to make sure.

Slightly off topic:

About plague javelin not hitting people. Even if people don't run into your plague javelins, it's still doing it's job for a hybrid. I've found that the best thing about having plague javelin as a backup attack is that if they choose to dodge it, it prevents people from telestomping. Good maxblock sorcs/necros.. well everything will try to telestomp you to get you in dodge lock and prevent you from firing arrows so negating that gives you a lot more room to fire arrows. This doesn't really apply to barbs since they pretty much HAVE to get hit by plague. Melee paladins and hammerdins are better off since they can use desync to try and trick you. However, it's still great because getting hit by plague javelin reveals their position and if they're not running into plague javelin that means they're not attacking you.

Pure plague/poison javelin zons work much differently in that they have to use it offensively in combination with teleport against most classes.I understand what you're saying but at the same time I just don't think plague javs will really suit my needs in this build. Although I have witnessed some good pubstomps by Syphilis with the plague java and I have to say it looked like great fun.

[Zelator]

I like to use Strafe versus ES sorks.

[SlainByPain]

The strafelock time on strafe is usually too long especially with a glass cannon. MB es sorcs will telestomp you and if you're stuck in strafelock at that point you're dead.

I suppose it's useful if they aren't telestomping since sorcs have rather bad FBR/FHR rates and could get stunlocked.

[CrooklynDodger]

No need strafe in almost any duels but it's worth the point still for the rare occasion.

[LuckyC]

i think this can help you atleast a bit hehe.
http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727864

the strategy is missing atm, its being written ;)

[Raith]

from your guide:

Rings and amulet –
Well amulet, either you can wear highlords ( for the ias bp), or cats eye that gives +30 frw as well as 20 ias, the DS on highlords and lres are juicy mods, but cats eye gives more charm flexibility( you need less frw charms, which means more damage and life charms, its all up to you what amulet you choose to use.


DS sucks with amazons, thats because critical and ds do not stack together.

[LuckyC]

from your guide:



DS sucks with amazons, thats because critical and ds do not stack together.

as far as i know, that is complete nonsense.

[NASE]

as far as i know, that is complete nonsense.

As far As i know, what you are saying is complete nonsense.

[KillaMike]

For skills I basically plan on following the pure hybrid guide which is as follows...
Guided Arrow- 20
Critical Strike- 70% chance minimum
Penetrate- 1
Pierce- 1
Dodge- 55% minimum
Avoid- 65% minimum
Evade- 55% minimum
Strafe- 1
Jab- 1
Lightning Bolt- 1
Lightning Fury- 1/0
Decoy- 1
Valkyrie- 1
All other prereqs- 1
Multishot- all remaining points



just reading your skills, i am thinking, isnt that a bowa skills? i d understand if you wanted to have psn java as back up, or GA back up for java, but this... i am lost ( may be my scanning reading failes? ) xD