Best way/build to fight a _____ char

[wooginator]

I thought I'd start a thread where people could ask what the best way to fight any particular build is, because I know I've found myself asking that question on a number of occasions. I'll start. What's the best way/build to fight trapsins? They annoy the crap out of me. I made a barb once with g-angel and some sorb who they couldn't hurt, but he couldn't catch them. So how do you fight them?

[LLD]

Trapsins are very potent duelers.
But a BvC should be able too beat them(especially if you BM with g-angel and sorb), if you couldn't catch them its because you need practice with him.
Any Paladin with a grief in stash should be able too just charge them down with tgods and decent stack.
If you are good with a bowzon you could have the upper hand, though it is a cat and mouse affair.

[Raith]

mindblast > zons, imo trapsin kills zons most of the time.

[wooginator]

Yeah, I would definitely think so. What about a smiter with a few extra points into lightning resist aura and a tgods? Just switch that on and charge/smite them.

[Timmy]

Trapsins are very potent duelers.
But a BvC should be able too beat them(especially if you BM with g-angel and sorb), if you couldn't catch them its because you need practice with him.
Any Paladin with a grief in stash should be able too just charge them down with tgods and decent stack.
If you are good with a bowzon you would have the upper hand, though it is a cat and mouse affair.

Not if they are WW/trap hybrid. They'll rape any pala that charges into them. And pure trappers are bad, they get sorbed and flamed alot.

BvC are indeed a hard fight for a pure trapper and a hybrid trapper.

[LLD]

Yeah, I would definitely think so. What about a smiter with a few extra points into lightning resist aura and a tgods? Just switch that on and charge/smite them.

You don't even need too have the lighting aura, your resistances as a smiter "should" be good enough, you don't even need too stack it because trappers have no way of applying -res. But yea, I found just throwing on a tgods and a high lords wrath and then charging them works.

mindblast > zons, imo trapsin kills zons most of the time.

And then the zon figures out how too WSG

[Moritz]

and then the sin finds out how to chainlock.

only really good players with a good build and items can make me put on my w/s maxblock setup.
you can imagine what the duels look like after i switched.

and its not just me, its pretty much every decent sin will kill almost every zon most of the time.

[LLD]

and then the sin finds out how to chainlock.

only really good players with a good build and items can make me put on my w/s maxblock setup.
you can imagine what the duels look like after i switched.

and its not just me, its pretty much every decent sin will kill almost every zon most of the time.

Most trappers will know how to chainlock, so all you can do is wsg until they slip up. Whenever they cast a trap, you have several frames to shoot a few GA's before the traps start shooting. Play defensive and don't let them get on screen.
This is of course only if we talk pure trapper sin, if the discussion is about a ghost or a hybrid then I concede that the duel becomes almost impossible

[wooginator]

A charge/smiter would not necessarily get raped by a hybrid ww/trap sin. If you're good, as they ww you can shift and smite while they pass you by and that'll be the end of them.

Also, I see more pure trappers than I see hybrids.

[Verashiden]

WW/Trap shouldn't try to whirl through a Smiter. If you start shift Smiting then they just lay Traps on you and force you to charge or move, then they'll tele whirl you once and start the process over again.

[wooginator]

A skilled one, yeah, probably. They're a rather tough build to fight. Damn trappers with their mindblast. Lol.

By the way, if anyone else wants to ask about a build they have trouble beating feel free to post here. I'd like to popularize this thread for that sort of thing, unless one already exists and I missed it.

[mephiztophelez]

A charge/smiter would not necessarily get raped by a hybrid ww/trap sin.

a charging smiter will get wtfbbqPWNED by a ww/trapper.

the only GM way for a smiter to beat a ww/trap'sin is with precision telesmiting skills.

however, 99% of pub smiters will simply pile on the 'sorb and the cheesy-goo lifetap gear, which makes life somewhat uncomfortable for even the best equipped 'sin.


Also, I see more pure trappers than I see hybrids.
possibly because a good trapper can be made with off-the-shelf equipment while a Hybrid kind of needs some rather esoteric and hard to get gear (gfg claws and amulets are few and far between)

[MysticDragon]

Honestly, Life Tap isn't that bad. >.> Smiters are at a disadvantage in most matchups anyway.

[wooginator]

Lol. I see very few match-ups in which a smiter is at a disadvantage. And lifetap basically means they can't lose in melee. If they can tap I can pot. Also, I've yet to meet a trapper/wwer who my friend's smiter can't grind into the dust.

[wizAdept]

And lifetap basically means they can't lose in melee. If they can tap I can pot.
.. I dont know if I want to touch this discussion lol.

smite is not allowed in melee duels so it doesn't matter, melee duels has it's own set of GM rules, has nothing to do with caster GM rules.

%chance to proc lifetap is GM in caster duels, always has been. Nothing unfair about it, dont wanna get tapped? don't get hit. Casters should be able to duel smiters under GM rules, lifetap does not make for an impossible duel, just another thing to watch out for.

[wooginator]

I don't know about that whole, smite not being melee thing. I've always understood melee to mean that your damage must be dealt up close. That's all it means. Smite is obnoxious, but it's still melee.

[wizAdept]

I don't know about that whole, smite not being melee thing. I've always understood melee to mean that your damage must be dealt up close. That's all it means. Smite is obnoxious, but it's still melee.
If I teleport on top of someone and hammer is that melee because the damage is being dealt close up?

Melee means its a duel under melee rules.

Melee rules are very strict in what the do and do not allow. Attacks that do not need ar such as smite or CS are not allowed in melee duels. Attacks such as whirl which move you around are not allowed in melee duels.
There are a lot of other rules but they'll vary from melee community to melee community. Some melee communities narrow it down to just zeal, conc, fury, jab as being allowed.

Smite is allowed in caster duels, lifetap is GM, most casters can deal with smiters just fine regardless.

[wooginator]

Ah. Well I operate by no such strict rules. Seem kinda silly to me. Especially the ww one. What you're defining here is basically where two people just stand stock still and beat the crap out of each other until one of them falls down dead. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just not a lot of strategy involved as far as I can see. But anyway, that's not what the thread's about.

[wizAdept]

That is melee duels. If you want to play in GM melee duels you have to abide by the rules of those communities, otherwise what do you call GM?

If you have no interest in these duels where people stand still and beat the crap out of them (which I as well have no interest in) then simply don't partake in melee duels. Smite is a valid caster dueling tactic. Other casters (Im counting anything that does caster dueling as a caster, wwsins and bvcs included) should be able to duel against them. Nothing unfair about smite or lifetap in caster duels.

[wooginator]

Eh. I still consider tap to be bm. I would call any method of healing bm, be it excessive sorb or lifetap or pots or killing monsters in the moor and redeeming it. Also, if smite isn't melee it needs a new classification because it sure isn't something you 'cast'.

[TienJe]

Lol. I see very few match-ups in which a smiter is at a disadvantage. And lifetap basically means they can't lose in melee.

sry ive seen godly and godlys dont lose hp wich wuold pretty much be a smiter with life tap
sry ive seen godly and godlys dont lose hp wich wuold pretty much be a smiter with life tap
sry ive seen godly and godlys dont lose hp wich wuold pretty much be a smiter with life tap
sry ive seen godly and godlys dont lose hp wich wuold pretty much be a smiter with life tap
sry ive seen godly and godlys dont lose hp wich wuold pretty much be a smiter with life tap
sry ive seen godly and godlys dont lose hp wich wuold pretty much be a smiter with life tap
sry ive seen godly and godlys dont lose hp wich wuold pretty much be a smiter with life tap
sry ive seen godly and godlys dont lose hp wich wuold pretty much be a smiter with life tap
sry ive seen godly and godlys dont lose hp wich wuold pretty much be a smiter with life tap
sry ive seen godly and godlys dont lose hp wich wuold pretty much be a smiter with life tap
sry ive seen godly and godlys dont lose hp wich wuold pretty much be a smiter with life tap
sry ive seen godly and godlys dont lose hp wich wuold pretty much be a smiter with life tap
sry ive seen godly and godlys dont lose hp wich wuold pretty much be a smiter with life tap
sry ive seen godly and godlys dont lose hp wich wuold pretty much be a smiter with life tap
sry ive seen godly and godlys dont lose hp wich wuold pretty much be a smiter with life tap
sry ive seen godly and godlys dont lose hp wich wuold pretty much be a smiter with life tap

[Barloc]

Eh. I still consider tap to be bm. I would call any method of healing bm, be it excessive sorb or lifetap or pots or killing monsters in the moor and redeeming it. Also, if smite isn't melee it needs a new classification because it sure isn't something you 'cast'.

I understand your thinking totally. But melee is also a D2 community thing, which is outside standard definition. In D2 it is indeed ---> hold down the mouse with your weapons based character until win/loose. That's it. So it is and has been classified that way a long time.

Also, I duel pure smiters all the time and the great majority are trash vs barb who knows what they are doing. I speak from experience, since I play barb, and have not feared this kind of dueler for a long time. Tap, no tap, It doesn't matter. It only matters to you since you've not been able to acquire the wealth to get all the appropriate gear, or you just don't have all the info you need to beat them successfully - or both.

[wooginator]

True. A whirlwind barb with a range five weapon should demolish a smiter, right? Cause the smiter can't reach you? Also, if you know a lot about barbs, how do you get attack rating on whirlwind? Mine isn't doing too well.

[MysticDragon]

Okay... List of characters Smiters beat:

Zealot
Shapeshifters
Javazons
Bowazons
Warcry Barbarians
Chargers
Templars

Am I forgetting something?

[Spinns]

They have a decent chance with sorcs if they can either tele smite them quick enough or 1-2 hit charge them.

[SeCKSEgai]

That is melee duels. If you want to play in GM melee duels you have to abide by the rules of those communities, otherwise what do you call GM?

If you have no interest in these duels where people stand still and beat the crap out of them (which I as well have no interest in) then simply don't partake in melee duels. Smite is a valid caster dueling tactic. Other casters (Im counting anything that does caster dueling as a caster, wwsins and bvcs included) should be able to duel against them. Nothing unfair about smite or lifetap in caster duels.

The reason lifetap isn't considered bm against casters is because if the caster is getting hit the lifetap wouldn't really matter - Short of an assassin, you're not blocking smite, and I can't remember whether or not it can be dodged/evaded by a zon. Even still, any build with a ranged primary, whether it be traps or fireball, etc. is going to die if they are in range long enough to a smiter.

Since I primarily roll a ghost, I avoid fighting lifetapping smiters because I have to wear them down between the high defense and blocking so one lifetap and all that damage is gone.

[KillaMike]

question:

4.5k ES boltress/ lighting sorc

vs

pala with t gods 20% whisp ( 2 of them ) with 4 Lo shield and lighting res aura on ( so he has 95% lighting res ) and grief as annoyence

how to beat that idiot?

[Spinns]

pop mana pots lol jk

[Barloc]

Okay... List of characters Smiters beat:

Zealot
Shapeshifters
Javazons
Bowazons
Warcry Barbarians
Chargers
Templars

Am I forgetting something?

Yeah, any melee based. Any barb that isn't ww.

[wooginator]

My shapeshifter beats a fair amount of smiters. Rabies/fury, with heavy emphasis on the rabies. Most smiters don't think to use cleansing (which might be bm anyway) and they don't really think to stack their poison resist either, at least no more than other resist. And as for beating that super-stacked sorbing paladin with a charged boltress? Have you tried holding an infinity? That gives you an added -140% lite resist, and if you've got a griffs that becomes anywhere from 155 to 165. This easily counteracts his resistance aura, which only adds around 138 at the most. In general I recommend that lite sorcs either hold most of the time, or have in their stash with the ability to hold, a voulge infinity (mine is eth with -55 res! I rolled it myself).

[KillaMike]

My shapeshifter beats a fair amount of smiters. Rabies/fury, with heavy emphasis on the rabies. Most smiters don't think to use cleansing (which might be bm anyway) and they don't really think to stack their poison resist either, at least no more than other resist. And as for beating that super-stacked sorbing paladin with a charged boltress? Have you tried holding an infinity? That gives you an added -140% lite resist, and if you've got a griffs that becomes anywhere from 155 to 165. This easily counteracts his resistance aura, which only adds around 138 at the most. In general I recommend that lite sorcs either hold most of the time, or have in their stash with the ability to hold, a voulge infinity (mine is eth with -55 res! I rolled it myself).

to make it clear to you, he has enought abz to get healed with my bolts, with -100 res he WILL get healed....

[Uncle_Mike]

question:

4.5k ES boltress/ lighting sorc

vs

pala with t gods 20% whisp ( 2 of them ) with 4 Lo shield and lighting res aura on ( so he has 95% lighting res ) and grief as annoyence

how to beat that idiot?

if he's a smiter get a hammerdin :)

[wizAdept]

question:

4.5k ES boltress/ lighting sorc

vs

pala with t gods 20% whisp ( 2 of them ) with 4 Lo shield and lighting res aura on ( so he has 95% lighting res ) and grief as annoyence

how to beat that idiot?

You are being oversorbed. Bring in something non-elemental for bm duels.

[wooginator]

That's always good, or even just another kind of element. Some kind of hybrid maybe? It's nearly impossible to oversorb multiple elements at once and still have an effective offense.

[wizAdept]

That's always good, or even just another kind of element. Some kind of hybrid maybe? It's nearly impossible to oversorb multiple elements at once and still have an effective offense.

There are very few hybrids in d2 that pump out enough damage to stand in pvp while supporting multiple damage types. While it's possible with v/t or assassins its not really that realistic to do with a sorc.

When dueling BM teams can be of great help, since a pally in full sorb gear of one element usually makes himself very weak to the rest of the team.

[mephiztophelez]

Smite is allowed in caster duels, lifetap is GM, most casters can deal with smiters just fine regardless.
until the ubiquitous sorb comes out of the stash....

question:

4.5k ES boltress/ lighting sorc

vs

pala with t gods 20% whisp ( 2 of them ) with 4 Lo shield and lighting res aura on ( so he has 95% lighting res ) and grief as annoyence

how to beat that idiot?
you won't beat them with any lit based character.

It's nearly impossible to oversorb multiple elements at once and still have an effective offense.
i'm afraid you're wrong. pally's can oversorb multiple elements with ease. especially smiters.

my smiter can tri-sorb reasonably easily in standard vs-all %DR gear.
i put 20 into resist lit for 85% lit res (95% when i flip it on)
ravenfrost: (cold sorb)
dwarfstar: (life and fire sorb, the mDR is also nice)
waterwalks: +5% max fire res for 80%.

bingo, tri-sorb and only truly BM against Fire (dwarf + ww's breaks the One Piece Either Or gm sorb rule), all while maintaining 50% DR.

if i'm getting rude, i can sub out the dungo's for a T-Gods (95% res with fanat running, 20 integer sorb AND the mDR from the Dwarf means i laugh in the face of anything lightning based), ditch the Mara's for a Rising Sun, swap the HoZ for a 109% res-all sanctuary vortex (your cold mastery merely tickles). if i'm being rude to a Blizzy or Orber, i can switch the Dwarf for another Ravenfrost. if i need extra res, i can sub out the WW's for some nice Cold/Lit res/FHR/FRW rares and maintain max res under both a Conviction Aura AND a Lower Res curse (although cold mastery will screw me at that point) with Salvation running.

there you go. over'sorb vs all elements along with stupidly stacked resists while maintaining a handy, but sub-optimal, 31% DR.

[MysticDragon]

Yeah, any melee based. Any barb that isn't ww.

Which is a very small number of duelers. That brings me back to my point. Most characters have no trouble against Smiters.

[wizAdept]

until the ubiquitous sorb comes out of the stash....

Well yes of course. I meant that most casters can deal with tapping smiters np assuming all other gm rules are being used.

[wooginator]

Out of curiosity, by these extra strict melee rules, wouldn't a zealer be the ultimate build? Four frame attack, high damage, easy to obtain max block, fast block rate and high defense?

[LLD]

Which is a very small number of duelers. That brings me back to my point. Most characters have no trouble against Smiters.

Chicken or the egg?
Are the smiters bad because of the player or the other way around?
I find that a very well player smiter, who dosent just desynch around like a headless chicken and uses a hoz 24/7, is a VERY difficult opponent(especially if they are good namelockers)

[Jordanbcool]

Well this is what I think this thread means....

PvP/PvM

Necros- Bonemancer/Summoner
Barbs- BvC/Frenzier
Druids- Windies/rabies druid
Sorcs- Fire/ES sorc/Meteorb
Zons- Bowazon/Not sure (never played them)
Assasins- WW/Trapper hybrid/kicksin
Palidans- Hammerdin/Frost Zealot

:)

[wooginator]

I'm not entirely sure what you were going for here with this post, jordanbcool. The idea I had in mind for this thread when I started it was if someone was having trouble beating a specific class in pvp or thinking of a way to do so they could post here and ask for advice. What is this table exactly? You lost me.

[Jordanbcool]

idk I thought you meant the best character builds for PvP/PvM play for some reason.

[wooginator]

Ah. No problem. I'm a bit disappointed this hasn't taken off. Let's see...best way to beat hammerdins, anybody?

[Spinns]

Bowas, windies and necs fair pretty well, oh and don't forget BvCs

[Unbeliever]

A good wind druid can take out a hammerdin if he tele stomps well.

[Uncle_Mike]

Bowas, windies and necs fair pretty well, oh and don't forget BvCs

I wouldn't consider BvC a good anti-hammerdin character. It works fine vs bad paladins, good ones clearly have the upper hand IMO.

[Spinns]

Yeah i just added them since so many people seem to be in love with them

[Zelator]

Necro > paladong. Also sorcs do well against 'em (gm of course)

[Spinns]

That's true but then again how often do you find a gm pub game?

[Zelator]

That's true but then again how often do you find a gm pub game?

When the games' not full, I usually get to do some GM duelling before all the a$$holes infest the game. But I agree, there's not many GM paladingas in pubs :\

[KillaMike]

When the games' not full, I usually get to do some GM duelling before all the a$$holes infest the game. But I agree, there's not many GM paladingas in pubs :\

only couple, and they are gm only cause they

a) noobs

b) mfers

c) dont care

any way, back to my post: i have only es boltress sorc, ccause i like her, and making 2nd dueler would kill me financually and i like sorc too much, btw gaydins have none in my account ( only 1 as reminder )

[wooginator]

Some of us do actually pub duel gm because we believe it's more fun that way. Also, all paladin builds aren't lame automatically by virtue of being paladins. You just have to strive to think of the original ones. And if you have no character besides an ES boltress then you're not beating that pally.

[LLD]

only couple, and they are gm only cause they

a) noobs

b) mfers

c) dont care

any way, back to my post: i have only es boltress sorc, ccause i like her, and making 2nd dueler would kill me financually and i like sorc too much, btw gaydins have none in my account ( only 1 as reminder )

Once again you show your lack of knowledge.

[Zelator]

Once again you show your lack of knowledge.

What about trying to respond in a proper way rather than with this attitude?

[korialstraz]

a) noobs

Wrong.

b) mfers

Wrong.

c) dont care

Wrong.


:whistling:

[KillaMike]

Wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

:whistling:

okay, i do know there are couple of gm people, but all of them are on my friend list, and after that there aint much of point to duel with them, you know roughly about whos gonna win whom. thats boring, i did try to join "private channel" for gm duels, didnt turn out well.... cause my friend nked all of them :whistling: and they hate me :whistling: so i nk them as well now :whistling: cuase life is unfair :whistling: for them :whistling: :whistling: :whistling:

any way, is there any good etf duel channel? or something for pubs? i am bored and my sorc want more then just noobing duels. like sorc vs sorc as preference :grin:

/e

Once again you show your lack of knowledge.

do you want me to really annoy you or something? trust me, i am very bad when i am in no mood, and currently you are annoying, you want to get banned or something?

[Uncle_Mike]

you want to get banned or something?

I could ask you the same... If you have an issue with a post report the post in question.

edit: some OT/SPAM deleted below :whistling:

[wooginator]

Quite frankly to all of you, I do a lot of pub dueling (in that I do a lot of dueling and I don't do any private dueling) and there really is a decent quantity of gm going on. I mean, it's not ultra strict gm, but a lot of the time if someone's wearing tap gear they forgot they were wearing it and will gladly take it off, things like that. A lot of people really do want to see who's better in a more or less fair fight.

[KillaMike]

Quite frankly to all of you, I do a lot of pub dueling (in that I do a lot of dueling and I don't do any private dueling) and there really is a decent quantity of gm going on. I mean, it's not ultra strict gm, but a lot of the time if someone's wearing tap gear they forgot they were wearing it and will gladly take it off, things like that. A lot of people really do want to see who's better in a more or less fair fight.

ladder or nl?