PvP zon

[Redfrost]

Is hybrid the best build for bowazon in PvP? or is there better build for a bowazon?

[LLD]

Make a hybrid
I wouldn't recommend a full glass cannon one either.

[KillaMike]

bowa / psn java is nice, annoy them with psn whilt they get to 1 hp, and with max block + avod/evade/dodge = stand any phisical dmg

[Redfrost]

so do I max plague jav? then how many points into D/E/A? not forgeting guided and critical strike. plus do i get poison scs or lifer scs?

[LLD]

so do I max plague jav? then how many points into D/E/A? not forgeting guided and critical strike. plus do i get poison scs or lifer scs?

I would just make a Bow/java hybrid
I dont like poison hybrids.
But either way you go try too use 3/xx/20's and 3/xx/3's

[Raith]

or go cs with cta bow to annoy them to come close and cs them. ;p

[NASE]

What do you understand when talking about a hybrid?

Bowazon generally are build using a point lighting bolt or lightning fury with titans/ss on switch (although there is tele guide somewhere inhere too). Some call this a hybrid.
Then we have lightning amazons/poison amazons that use a one point guided arrow. Which again ofter aren't really hybrids.
And then we have the true hybrids that combine lightning and poison (possibly with a guide arrow faith on switch) and those that combine poison with a strong guide arrow on switch.


P.S. There isn't really a best build. It's highly depending on what your plans are. Pubs, gm duels, team duel, sorb, wealth, ...?

[Redfrost]

which will be more effective? LB/LF or Cs? and if i'm not realli that rich, so i cant afford those exp scs. wad cheaper alternatives to get?

[Uncle_Mike]

which will be more effective? LB/LF or Cs? and if i'm not realli that rich, so i cant afford those exp scs. wad cheaper alternatives to get?

Read Tienje's guide, it's in the guides sticky. It's called a hybrid but we're really talking just a few skill points in the javelin tree.

[Raith]

there are pros and cons of lb/lf or cs.

i dont want to talk about lb vs cs because lb IS the ranged version of cs.

lf does both physical(requires AR) and light(does not require AR) dmg. it is ranged, so you can throw.

cs requires you to BE WITHIN RANGE but does more damage than lf, but can be sorbed easier.

[tinncann25]

there are pros and cons of lb/lf or cs.

i dont want to talk about lb vs cs because lb IS the ranged version of cs.

lf does both physical(requires AR) and light(does not require AR) dmg. it is ranged, so you can throw.

cs requires you to BE WITHIN RANGE but does more damage than lf, but can be sorbed easier.

Mmmm most of this is true, but the physical damage on LF is negligible when used especially for physical damage and all the light damage LF has is also unblockable. LF is used vs minions, where LB is for single targets. Another interesting use of physical damage that I have found to be very useful is for dealing damage to a druid who has cyclone armor. The physical damage goes through cyclone armor therefore it is immensely useful for getting that last hit.

[Raith]

my zon has no trouble vs any druid, necromancers are another story.

[SlainByPain]

Breakdown of bowazon builds in the most simplistic form:

Bowazon (glass):
Rather weak in public games and BM duels because you're 1 hit koed easily by everything. FoHers/smiters/blizzsorcs are especially a major annoyance. They're not too bad in GM 1v1 duels but paladins can simply slap on a grief and charge you regardless of what they actually are. Most maxblock builds will beat also beat you. Glass cannons work best in team PVP. Resists are mostly ignored for these. Usually you still want to hit 1k+ hp with 150ish frw. From there just get your damage up as high as possible whilst maintaining 7 frames. Note that these still make use of LF/LB as a switch.


Bowazon (vita or vita/dex hybrid):
Fares much better in public games and better than glass cannons in GM 1v1 most of the time. Resists and DR become important because you're aiming to actually tank a few hits. Pure vita bowazons can tank just as much as bvcs and the like (can reach over 7000 effective HP). FRW can go as low as you want but you probably don't want less than 90ish. Many will disagree and say that the minimum is much higher but that's really up to you to find for yourself. You'll still wield a jav/shield switch with a cta precast or in cube. IMO this kind of bowazon is superior to the glass cannon in all ways except in TvT.


Bow/Plague hybrids:
My personal favorite. You really don't lose much from investing 40 points in the poison javelin skills. You can still max critical and you'll lose maybe 10% in dodges. In return, you gain a great damage over time skill that makes telestomping (which most good maxblock duelers will opt for) much more difficult. In addition, it's probably your best bet against smiters and chargers as well as BvAs. The same glass cannon/vita arguement applies for these as with bowazons. The biggest drawback I've found for the bow/plague hybrid is that it (especially plague heavy variants) are weak in TvT. Plague javelin without high fcr teleport will almost never hit in high skilled TvTs, making it rather useless.

CS/Bow:
If you think about it, the idea behind this build is pretty much bad. You can't really afford to skill much in the bow tree or in critical since synergies are extremely important. In addition, CS zons and bowazons don't mix well because they don't cover eachothers weaknesses very well. For example, smiters will beat a cs/bow easier than an equally geared/skilled bow or CS zon. The one advantage I can think of is that some max block chars such as FBers will no longer be able to telestomp you as easily. Most characters however, simply don't fear CS enough.

If you have an idea of the actual build you're going for then I can help more.


@raith
If said necromancers are using bone prison/decrep, disregard those because most people view it BM. Just juv or something. If not, I'm interested in what kind of build/strategy you/the necros are using because I don't see how necros are much easier/harder than wind druids.

@tinncann
Mostly correct, but LB use is rather rare for me. I find that LF with eth titans or a godly rare will dish out more damage in most situations. The main targets you use LF/LB against are dual wielding BvCs (for the sake of quick kills), smiters/chargers, and wind druids. LF is obviously used against wind druids and the BvCs. LF is also used against most smiters/chargers because a lot of them pack maxed light res aura and have a base 85 LR.

[tinncann25]

@tinncann
Mostly correct, but LB use is rather rare for me. I find that LF with eth titans or a godly rare will dish out more damage in most situations. The main targets you use LF/LB against are dual wielding BvCs (for the sake of quick kills), smiters/chargers, and wind druids. LF is obviously used against wind druids and the BvCs. LF is also used against most smiters/chargers because a lot of them pack maxed light res aura and have a base 85 LR.

I cant understand why you would do more damage with LF. My LF damage the last time I checked is a ~1700 physical with a 1-4k light and my LB damage 200-10k. Figuring resistances, damage reduction, and blocking I would have to conclude you are looking at more favorable damage with LB.

Problem with using LF on smiters and chargers is that the max block makes the physical damage quite useless. I mean if u calculate on an average damage output basis thats .25*1700 which is 425...then with 1/6th reduction...yeah pretty negligible. (I am not even calculating the physical damage reduction of 50%)

Basically if they have max block and 85LR you are going to have to do a lot of running with LB flying at them.

Another instance I use Lf is when I am near a wall and can't click behind me, but this is just my inability to click fast enough haha.

[SlainByPain]

Ah, I assumed we were talking about bowazon variants here. Since you're dealing 10k LB damage I'm guessing you're a javazon. That makes things entirely different I think. Glass Bowazons with 1pt lf/lb will deal something like 3k+ phys damage with LF and 2k lightning damage with LB. With a rare jav it's possible to hit 5k+ physical.

[SeCKSEgai]

which will be more effective? LB/LF or Cs? and if i'm not realli that rich, so i cant afford those exp scs. wad cheaper alternatives to get?

While my dueling experience with zons is pretty limited, on a budget I find them a poor choice (unless you really enjoy the playstyle).

A pure bowazon/bowazon hybrid is very gear dependent, and the "standard" equipment alone can be a bit difficult to comeby as is, and then there's the charms...

A CS/LF/LB Javazon is a bit more practical since it can be relatively competitive with equipment easier to acquire.

A poison jav zon is plausible on a budget as well since you don't require the same synergy investment lightning does and it can deal quite a bit of damage. I've run into them the least, but the players behind them are typically more competitive in my experience.

[Raith]

Breakdown of bowazon builds in the most simplistic form:

Bowazon (glass):
Rather weak in public games and BM duels because you're 1 hit koed easily by everything. FoHers/smiters/blizzsorcs are especially a major annoyance. They're not too bad in GM 1v1 duels but paladins can simply slap on a grief and charge you regardless of what they actually are. Most maxblock builds will beat also beat you. Glass cannons work best in team PVP. Resists are mostly ignored for these. Usually you still want to hit 1k+ hp with 150ish frw. From there just get your damage up as high as possible whilst maintaining 7 frames. Note that these still make use of LF/LB as a switch.


Bowazon (vita or vita/dex hybrid):
Fares much better in public games and better than glass cannons in GM 1v1 most of the time. Resists and DR become important because you're aiming to actually tank a few hits. Pure vita bowazons can tank just as much as bvcs and the like (can reach over 7000 effective HP). FRW can go as low as you want but you probably don't want less than 90ish. Many will disagree and say that the minimum is much higher but that's really up to you to find for yourself. You'll still wield a jav/shield switch with a cta precast or in cube. IMO this kind of bowazon is superior to the glass cannon in all ways except in TvT.


Bow/Plague hybrids:
My personal favorite. You really don't lose much from investing 40 points in the poison javelin skills. You can still max critical and you'll lose maybe 10% in dodges. In return, you gain a great damage over time skill that makes telestomping (which most good maxblock duelers will opt for) much more difficult. In addition, it's probably your best bet against smiters and chargers as well as BvAs. The same glass cannon/vita arguement applies for these as with bowazons. The biggest drawback I've found for the bow/plague hybrid is that it (especially plague heavy variants) are weak in TvT. Plague javelin without high fcr teleport will almost never hit in high skilled TvTs, making it rather useless.

CS/Bow:
If you think about it, the idea behind this build is pretty much bad. You can't really afford to skill much in the bow tree or in critical since synergies are extremely important. In addition, CS zons and bowazons don't mix well because they don't cover eachothers weaknesses very well. For example, smiters will beat a cs/bow easier than an equally geared/skilled bow or CS zon. The one advantage I can think of is that some max block chars such as FBers will no longer be able to telestomp you as easily. Most characters however, simply don't fear CS enough.

If you have an idea of the actual build you're going for then I can help more.


@raith
If said necromancers are using bone prison/decrep, disregard those because most people view it BM. Just juv or something. If not, I'm interested in what kind of build/strategy you/the necros are using because I don't see how necros are much easier/harder than wind druids.

@tinncann
Mostly correct, but LB use is rather rare for me. I find that LF with eth titans or a godly rare will dish out more damage in most situations. The main targets you use LF/LB against are dual wielding BvCs (for the sake of quick kills), smiters/chargers, and wind druids. LF is obviously used against wind druids and the BvCs. LF is also used against most smiters/chargers because a lot of them pack maxed light res aura and have a base 85 LR.

you forgot about the jav/bow hybrid get max block and everything else vita. anyway no, necros with mb and ba is so frustrating to duel, theyll almost take no dmg and just tele on you and spam. rather ugh. i guess PJ works in this case.

[SlainByPain]

I guess, but I've always felt max block druids were the bigger threat for me since they could dodge lock.

And yeah, I forgot about the dex for maxblock.

[Raith]

mb windy druids? theyre RIDICULOUSLY easy, lf, run lf run if they move out of your view but still on mini, spam ga/multi - win.

[LLD]

mb windy druids? theyre RIDICULOUSLY easy, lf, run lf run if they move out of your view but still on mini, spam ga/multi - win.

Apparently you have not dueled top of the line druids but noobys who use F-key hot keys to "great" avail.

[vknez]

Apparently you have not dueled top of the line druids but noobys who use F-key hot keys to "great" avail.

agree. to much of his skills puts you in d/a/e (hurricane, ravens, wolfs, nados...). max block and 50 dr is standard on any good winder

[SlainByPain]

Although I don't think they're easy, MB/Max dr druids can still be beaten. Usually you want to attempt to switch to bow and GA after summons are gone though because LFing will take so long that they'll just dodge lock you eventually.

[Raith]

Apparently you have not dueled top of the line druids but noobys who use F-key hot keys to "great" avail.

lol. i duel on d2pk. maybe theres not a lot of top windies there then heh. all "ft5" chars people bring are stupid hdins or hybrid sins.

[SlainByPain]

I assume d2pk has ridiculous rare javs which would make it infinitely easier.

[Raith]

I assume d2pk has ridiculous rare javs which would make it infinitely easier.

imo no rare javs are as good as eth upped titans, and thats what i use. im not talking about those 6/30 javs or w/e because i hate cs zons unless its a cool hybrid kind.